Maria Semple: “Go Gentle” | Oprah’s Book Club

And I will tell you that it really felt. like an act [music] of madness as I was. writing this book. I want to write all. about philosophy. I want to make this. huge mystery thriller. There was this. whole section [music] about internalized. misogyny. I had this big crazy ending. And plus it's a romance. As I was. writing it, I never [music] told anybody. about it. >> People would do this. Yeah. >> Yeah, exactly. But I kind of knew that I. could make it all work. >> Everybody, hi. I'm so pleased to welcome. you to the Oprah podcast. I'm in New. York City, home to some of the oldest,

coziest, and greatest bookstores in the. country. Hope you check one out the next. time you're here. This year we're. celebrating the 30th anniversary of my. book club. The Oprah Book Club, something I'm so proud of because books. have been just a balm to me over the. years, a comfort and a joy since I was a. little girl. And there's nothing I enjoy. more than reading a good book. Even. better when I'm sitting by a fireplace. or under a tree. Oh my goodness. So when. I started the book club, I never could.

have dreamed that I'd get to my 122nd. pick with so many of you readers along. for the ride who also find joy in. reading as much as I do. I'm honored to. host one of the largest and. longest-running book clubs in the. country and that's entirely thanks to. all of you. I appreciate you so much. The author of my 122nd pick, Go Gentle, is a writer who can create a. page-turner, y'all, mixed with painful.

life challenges and hysterical. laugh-out-loud comedy. Yes, her books. have sold millions of copies. Welcome. Maria Semple. >> Hello. >> Hello. Thank you. >> Maria Semple is the New York Times. mega-bestselling author [music] of Today. Will Be Different, This One Is Mine, and. Where'd You Go, Bernadette, which became. a movie in [music] 2019 starring Cate. Blanchett. Before becoming a novelist, >> [music]. >> Maria wrote for iconic television.

comedies like Saturday Night Live, Arrested Development, and Mad About You. Her fourth novel, Go [music] Gentle, follows the main character, Adora, a. divorced single mother living in the Big. Apple whose cheerful determination to. live a life of the mind is turned upside. down by her heart. It's been 10 years. since your last novel. Yes, we've been. waiting. Your devoted readers have been patiently. waiting. Tell us about writing this. >> So, Go Gentle, I'd actually made many.

attempts at this book. while I lived in Seattle. And I had. gotten really into stoicism about 10. years ago. And I knew that I wanted my. protagonist to be a stoic. And so, I. started writing from the point of view. of the stoic, but I was writing her kind. of emotionally shut down. >> Stoicism as a philosophy, cuz I I wasn't. even familiar with the stoicism until I. read this book, and then I went and got. other books about stoicism.

>> Oh, that's right. So, so so, I'll tell. you a little bit about stoicism, and. tell the people about stoicism, cuz it's. it's maybe not as well-known as I think, because it's such a big part of my life. But, uh stoicism is a philosophy, and uh. the stoics were ancient Greeks. And I. think of them as kind of the OGs of the. self-help movement. Uh from 300 BC, they. thought that you could apply reason to. achieve happiness. And the way you did. it was by differentiating between what.

was within your control and what's. outside of your control. And you put all. of your energy only to what's within. your control, and they call that virtue. Um and I think of it as kind of personal. character. And the rest of it, you just cheerfully. throw over to fate. And uh it sounds. simple, but uh it's certainly easier. said than done and it takes practice, but it is be your then get on a path to. achieve happiness. >> Okay, so you Maria Semple became a.

stoic. >> Yes. >> Meaning taking on this philosophy of. living. >> Yes. >> And you wanted to create a character who. was also a stoic. >> Exactly. So so I really was so excited. about stoicism that I wanted to I. thought I really wanted to get inside. that character. And so. at first when I wrote it. was writing the character as kind of. like I was saying emotionally shut down. a little grim.

>> Right. >> And perhaps that reflected where I was. at the time of my life, but I kept kind. of trying to write from this point of. view. >> Because at the time of your life you. were going through divorce. >> Exactly. Yes, I was yeah just like and. ending a long-term relationship and and. this was just the voice that I was. writing in, but I I kept writing maybe. but when I get to 50 pages. the kind of souffle would collapse so to. speak because the voice just wasn't fun. to write. It wasn't fun to read. And so.

I abandoned the book. I just put it away. and then my relationship ended and I. moved to New York City and I started. life fresh in the city. I was totally. dazzled by New York and kind of was. surprised at how much I love my new life. here. I kept thinking God I there's so. many cool things about that book that I. really want to get back to and I wish I. could figure it out. And when it was. time to start writing it occurred to me. why does a stoic have to be so grim and.

unfeeling? What if I make her. what if I make my character like a stoic. sage and make her just really happy. And. so I changed her name, I changed her. city, I changed her attitude and then. the book just kind of broke open for me. that this was this woman who had kind of. figured out uh cracked the code to. happiness. But, what I think is so. amazing about it, really profound, is. that you're telling this fictional story. because in the beginning when she is.

like teaching stoicism to the boys. >> Yes. >> and tutoring the boys, I'm like, is this. a real thing? So, then I go and look up. the books that she's teaching from, and. I realize it is a real thing. >> Yeah, it's totally a real thing. >> That you're able to incorporate this. philosophy into a novel about a. fictional character. >> Yes, and it was actually really hard to. do that again for a long time. I think. in the the early stages of the book that. weren't working out, I really felt like. I want I had to explain what it was, and. it just was kind of dreary, and that's.

not why you read a novel to have someone. explain philosophy to you. >> living it, teaching it, being it, makes. it so accessible. >> That's right. >> Let's talk about the main character, Adora. >> Yes. >> Who is tutoring these two boys. >> That's right. Okay, so Adora is a. single, divorced woman, the mother of a. teenage daughter who lives in New York. City. And. exactly, so far. she is a philosopher, and her job is to. teach ethics to these twin.

twin boys of a old money New York. family. >> Right. >> Um and she's figured out that the way to. be happy is to rid herself of all. desire. That desire's the source of. suffering, which is a stoic thing, it's. a Buddhist thing, it's something that, you know, you hear about a lot. And so, when we first um meet Adora, she's. really living uh. living the philosophy quite swimmingly,

you know? >> Yes. >> Of this quote from she's he who wants. nothing is the richest man in the world, I said, paraphrasing Seneca. The less. you want the happier you'll be. >> Exactly. >> She's she's living out that philosophy. >> is and so she's very contented with her. life and it's all going quite well until. she meets a handsome stranger at the. ballet. >> Ballet? [laughter]. >> And then um she maybe realizes that the. desire uh has not entirely been snuffed. out inside of her.

>> And so I I found this to have moments of. being like a thriller and like a mystery. and all of it combined. You are such a. profoundly good. strong brilliant writer. >> Well, thank you. I You know, that's a. huge compliment and I will tell you that. it really felt like an act of madness as. I was writing this book because I was. like, I want to write all about. philosophy. I want to make this huge um. mystery thriller. I knew there was this. whole section about, you know,

internalized misogyny and television. writing that I wanted to get to. And and. I had this big crazy ending and I and. plus it's a romance. And I just thought, oh my god, I how am I going to make this. work? And so I as I was writing it, I. never told anybody about it cuz I was. just worried if I started to explain it, people would kind of. >> That people do this. Yeah. >> Yeah, exactly. And then I would just. like lose all enthusiasm. But I kind of. knew that I could make it all work. >> And you did. >> Thank you. >> You did. And I I read that you were.

inspired to to write about what you. called the terrible secret of your life. >> This was something that it was really um. challenging to write, but it was really. fun is that uh in the middle of the book. we kind of flashback to Adora's past. >> Yes. >> And she was a comedy writer as I was. once a comedy writer. And something. happens to her. >> Yeah. >> uh which is a workplace kind of sexual. assault. >> Yes. >> And and that was it's kind of a pastiche.

of two different things that happened to. me when I was a TV writer, which I. really exaggerated for effect. Um but they were sexual assaults, even. though I didn't even really recognize it. as such at the time. And. >> That actually happened to you. >> Yes, that happened to me. >> But you exaggerated it in the book. >> Yes. Yes. And kind of combined them. >> Yes. >> And and in my case, one of them made me. kind of quit my job, and the other one. got me fired from my job. And uh I.

didn't tell anybody about it. I didn't. tell friends. It was just too shameful. You know, I kind of like fully shut it. out. I just thought. I I don't think I Because at the time. >> and it and in a different time and age. we didn't even think about. >> There weren't words for it. >> There weren't words for it. >> Right. And. >> know what to call it, and it happened, and you just keep going. >> And you keep going, and that's what it. was. >> Yeah. >> And then when Me Too happened, it just. really blew everything open because.

suddenly there's words for it. >> That's right. >> And there's a whole different framework. to look at it. >> And also you're like, "That happened to. you, too? I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the one that was. carrying that." Yeah. >> That's right. And to me, uh what I went. through at the time was that I felt um. really kind of guilty for being part of. the system, uh which which was just to kind of be on. these shows and and. I I feel like comedy at the time really.

there was so much misogyny in it, and I. didn't. I can't say that it made me feel really. bad about myself, and I thought there. was anything wrong with it. Like I. thought that was comedy. I thought. that's what you had to do to be a comedy. writer. I was often the only woman on. the writing staff or one of two. And so, um I just kind of went along with it. And so, I I felt really guilty for being. part of that. But also, I felt really. angry about what had happened to me. And. so, uh this combination of like guilt.

and rage. >> All of that gets. >> Yeah. So, I thought like, wow, there's. something right about. >> It finds its way in Go Gentle. So, the. story features a lot of what I would. call. richly defined supporting characters. with complex backstories. So, how do. these characters come to you? Do you Do. you just invent them? Do they visit you? I've heard different authors say. different things. >> So, I usually start with my protagonist. You know, that That's always where I.

start. And I think about the journey. that I want to put her on and the. character arc that I want to put her on. And from there, I kind of build the. world around her. And. >> But you don't know the full arc. >> No, I I kind of know emotionally where I. want her to to land. And I think you. have to in order to work backwards. But. in terms of the plot machinations to get. there, I don't know that yet. And so, in. terms of where I want her to land, I. then start kind of um filling her world. with characters.

who um to me have to earn their keep. You know, they have to come into. conflict with her. They have to make her. life miserable. They have to kind of go. the distance of the novel. I have to. just really. make sure it's not just a funny person. who appears on page 10 and disappears. Like, how am I really going to work them. into the fabric of the entire novel? And. I normally don't start writing a. character uh until I come up with like. an emotional truth or a comic premise. And usually the emotional truth is based.

on something about me, like my emotional. truth. And it's often nothing I'm. particularly proud of, kind of even. better, you know? >> So, what was it for Adora? What was the. emotional truth for Adora? >> Well, the. It was. >> Go Gentle. >> Okay, in Go Gentle, Adora's emotional. truth is that it's a woman who has. always struggled with desire. That when. she's young, she's just burning with. desire, but but she has like bad values.

and she's chasing these bad values that. get her into so much trouble. And so. then she kind of maybe over corrects and. turns off all the desire. >> With the stoicism. >> With the stoicism. And so to me, it's. like this like intellectual and. wonderful woman who really is has it. figured out, but the the kind of deal. with the devil is that she has decided. she doesn't want anything in her life. >> No more desire. >> And to me, that seemed like kind of. funny. But then you bring desire into.

her life and then what is what does she. do with that? And that seemed like a. comic premise to me. >> Well, I know women are going to love. this idea of the coven, right? It's a living arrangement of all single. women in their 50s that Adora is trying. to create in her apartment building. And. on page 31, she says, "We want women. like us, women who present as scary but. have good hearts, women who know how to. get done, women who despite our age.

share a dirty little secret. We're just. getting started." I just love that. Explain the idea of the coven. >> Well, that really was kind of a. narrative solution where I needed in the. beginning. for Adora to be really happy being. single, like genuinely happy. And I felt. like if I just had her sit there and. say, "I'm so happy being single. I love. being single." Maybe we wouldn't believe. her. She would it would be maybe. protesting [clears throat] too much. So.

I thought, "How do I put that in an. action with the just her full like. imagination and energy and ingenuity?". And so she kind of creates this thing on. the floor of her building where all of. her friends kind of move in. >> I love this. >> And and the idea is so they pool their. resources, they kind of share, you know, subscriptions to the ballet and Netflix. accounts and. >> Exactly. >> Going shopping. >> When they go shopping and. >> Cuz when you're single, you don't need. the entire loaf of bread, you only need. half. And I only need three pieces this.

week and I can have a half a stalk of. celery. That whole thing. >> And so and so she's she's very happy in. with everything about the covenant, really like captures her imagination. And so I felt like this was a really. good way to dramatize. uh how how a single woman to be happy. And and I will say I I didn't invent it. My women friends and I are constantly. talking about it and you're always. reading these articles. I feel like the. New York Times, they just come fast and.

furious, these articles about women. making compounds, you know, where they. want to live together for themselves. Yeah. >> Well, we gave some members of our book. club an advanced copy of Go Gentle and. they now have questions for you. So, who's joining us from Texas, Jay? Hey, how are you? >> Hi, I'm doing great. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. You read the book? >> I devoured that book. I must have torn. through it in a day and a half, max. >> Okay, that's good good timing.

>> So good. So, first of all, I I do need. to say my name is Jay Collier. I am from. Houston, Texas and I have been an. Oprah's Book Club fan since '99. Uh so thank you. Thank you for helping us weed through. all of the all of the best sellers to. find the books that actually stay with. you and change the way you see the. world. This was one for me. Um. first of all, it was uproariously funny, so witty, the dialogue, the pace. I just. That's why I said I devoured the book. In fact, it's the first time I ever.

thought there was a world where. philosophy was maybe sexy. I don't know. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. All right. >> Or fodder for like good first date and. banter. I I'm much like what Oprah said. earlier, I started wanting to read the. works. So, thank you for giving me more. perspective on the world in that way. >> But, I do have a question for you. So, much like what was just discussed, I. love the idea of the coven. I love the. idea that these women would have a. community that was beautiful and they.

could take into their golden years and. they wouldn't really need to worry about. being tied to someone in order to do. that. But, it felt like pretty quickly Adora. was enamored with and enchanted by any. idea of being, you know, in a romantic. relationship and seeing when she meets. this charming male character who they. could be to one another. And I guess my. question for you or Adora through you. would be, were you trying to tell us. that the idea of moving into your golden.

years with a community of women and. friends is really just a plan B and kind. of settling. >> Ooh, good question. >> and in truth, just want to love and be. loved romantically, no matter what age? >> That's a very good question. >> Good question, Jay. >> I I don't think it's a plan B. I think. it's a plan A. And and I this things. happens to Adora and she finds love, but. I I think that what first of all, the.

coven is still going strong on the. seventh floor. So, the coven still. exists in the world of the book. It it's. happening. Um and I think it's always there for her. and I will say I I. who knows if this thing will with thing. will work out or not, but I think that. in the in the course of the book, uh. Adora, I think has learned to love. herself in a way where she doesn't. really need a man, you know? And I And I. think that that's really what I was I.

was where I was hoping that she to leave. her. >> landed. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, exactly. That that's not like, oh, this is the. solution to all my problems. Like I. actually think the coven is the solution. to her problems and I don't mean to sell. out the coven. I know it's kind of a a. problem with the book, but I I. personally love the coven. And I will. say on the floor of my building two. apartments are coming up for sale, and. there's a long list of my friends who. now will hear about it for the first. time. Um and will say, "Wait, I need to. be in those apartments." So, the coven. will probably become a reality.

Jane, thanks so much. And we And you're. right, there's so much laughter, right? There's so much humor in the book. It's so funny. That's cuz we were We're. the comedy writer here. >> [laughter]. >> A comedy writer who became a fiction. writer. Was that a hard transition? It. It wasn't. that hard because while I was writing. for TV, even though I had a 20-year. career, worked on a lot of shows, and. was always kind of getting hired, I. never felt like I was that great at the. job. I I was good at story, but I was.

never really good at jokes. And there. always felt like there was something. wrong with me as a comedy writer. I felt. like I was kind of wearing my shoes on. the wrong feet or something. And I. certainly never watched TV. I wouldn't. go home and watch TV. I never watched. it. Instead, I would go home and read. books. I was an English major in. college. I still self-identify as an. English major. And that's really what I. loved was books. And so, it it even. though TV taught me some really amazing.

things, and I loved my time there in. many ways, and they really teach you. story. in TV. That's your job is to just be. breaking story, and working on scenes. And I think I really kind of developed a. story muscle while I was working in TV. It wasn't until I met uh. a novelist whose books I really liked, and I talked to him all about how cool. it was that he was writing books, and. what was it like that was so special. And he said to me, "Why don't you write.

a novel. if you like them so much?" And I just. thought that novels were for other. people to write. They were for kind of. more serious or dignified people to. write. That there was like no access for. me to become a fiction writer. >> you you like I have. writers on this pedestal. >> I totally on the pedestal. >> Yes, and I've never I'd never written a. word of of prose in my life and and he. said to me, uh novels are just your. personality and your interests and you.

have a good personality and you have a. lot of interests and I would read your. novel. And that's really all it took for. me was kind of getting permission from a. relative stranger to even try being a. novelist. And so I just set out, I. bought a book on. >> A stranger who had done it. >> Who had done it, yes. Who had done it. and who just gave me that encouragement. And so I bought a book on fiction. writing and kind of learned how to do. that and I just really was concerned. that I would be a bad writer, you know,

and that I didn't know that I could be a. good writer. And so I just kind of did. sentence by sentence and in my first. novel, This One Is Mine, um there are no. similes or metaphors because I didn't. trust myself not to just write bad. similes and metaphors. And so uh but now. Go Gentle is my fourth book and I'm a. little more confident about similes and. metaphors. >> Well, and also because you had such such. success with the Bernadette book. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. So, and success builds.

your own sense of confidence. [clears throat] and your ability to do. it once other readers respond. >> Yes. >> Yeah. That lets you know you're on the. right track. >> That's right. That you've got something. and it was really like my voice, I. think, that I I learned to kind of trust. my voice and I think that's really what. my career has been is just kind of. leaning in deeper and deeper to my voice. and just trusting that if if I like it, they'll like it. And and not trying to. make it any more complicated than that. >> Well, Annie who lives in New York is.

joining us. You have a question about. stoicism. Do Hi Annie. Hi. >> Hi. Hi Oprah. Hi Maria. Thank you so. much for having me. I'm honored to be. here. Maria, I absolutely loved the. book. Similarly, I devoured the book in. about a day and a half. I just couldn't. read it fast enough. I actually recently turned 30, so I'm a. few years behind Adora, but like her, I'm single and navigating living in New. York City. And as a single woman, I've. realized that it's really important to. have a philosophy or a mantra to keep.

you grounded. For me, mine is really. simple. It's that everything happens for. a reason and nothing happens by mistake. And this helps me navigate the highs and. the lows of living in a city that can. sometimes chew you up and spit you out, which is a big reason why we love New. York, but it can be tough. So I actually. have two questions for you. My first. question is that you wrote Adora, as you. mentioned previously, to have stoicism. as her anchor. Was that intended to show. how having a guiding philosophy can help. a woman survive and thrive in a. challenging and fast-paced environment.

like New York? And also, do you see. stoicism as a universal tool that anyone. can use to stay centered while they. figure out their life, their love, or. their career? >> Mhm. Good question. Uh well, New York, as you know, it's a hard place to live. We're all going through it. So any. >> [laughter]. >> any help we can get, I think that we. will all take. Uh and so yes, stoicism. can help that. And and I I do believe, just cuz I have the personal experience,

that I think that stoicism can help with. just going through your day on a small. level, with career stuff, with. relationship stuff. It just kind of. reframes. it it helps you reframe and find like. very helpful perspectives on situations. that make you not kind of go crazy with. obsessive thoughts and regret and. disappointment. It's it is a structure. that kind of inoculates you against all. of that. and so I think that that's good. for any age because life is is going to.

come at you. >> use it? Give us an example. >> Well, I have a stoic practice where I. every morning I sit down. in a chair in my little philosophy chair. and I write out the four stoic virtues. which are wisdom, courage, temperance. and justice and I write them out and. then I pick virtues to work on that day. Like for instance if it's a writing day. focus. is a subset of temperance and so I.

really think that my job here is to. focus. It's not to write a best seller, it's not to make a lot of money with the. book. Like I just have one job here, it's to focus. That's 100% of my. control. You know, I'm not wanting. basically I I try to desire only what's. 100% of my control and that I feel like. if that's your goal for the day is not. to want anything bigger, not to want. outcomes, not to want to change people, not to.

>> So you don't go through the world with. expectations of other people. >> Yes and and of things to turn out the. way you exactly want them to turn out. And so if that's the case then then you. actually can go to. bed feeling good about that day. Like. you've. you know. done done what you needed to do that day. and you're not just disappointed or. frustrated. And so I do think that it's. really helpful and it helps me just. reframe. just things that happen or things I'm.

going through. >> Absolutely. That's great advice. >> Uh thank you. >> well weren't you I think it's so. interesting. Every single person so far. that we've talked to um is was as. attracted to the stoicism philosophy as. I was. I think the stoic you did exactly. what you wanted to do. You nailed that. thing and got us all thinking about it. in a in a different kind of way. Didn't. it do that for you, too? >> It really did. And I like you were. saying before, I hadn't had my eyes open. to stoicism previously. And I also.

wanted to go and investigate more, read. some of the books that you'd mentioned, and really understand not only stoicism. but other types of philosophy and seeing. if there's something there that really. resonated with me. >> Yeah, it did the exact same thing for. me. Thank you so much, Annie. Thanks. >> Thanks, Annie. >> Thanks for reading it. >> Yes. >> Thanks for reading it and loving it. Wow. >> loved it. I can't wait to share it with. my friends. >> So, Adora lives by the Latin phrase, is. it amor fati? >> Yes, amor fati. >> And translated, that means. >> Love fate. >> Love fate. Meaning, love love whatever.

shows up. >> Love it. >> Find a way to love it, make. [clears throat] peace with it. >> Yeah, don't just accept it. Uh but love it. And the idea is that. even negative events, things that, you. know, you might perceive as being. negative, you can use to make yourself a. better person. You can then use that to. work on your patience, to work on your. courage, to to work on any of the. virtues. That everything is fodder for.

being a better, more resilient person. >> once you truly accept all the that. happened to you, you can get to work on. everything that still is available. But. even acceptance isn't enough. >> That's right. You have to love it. >> You have to love it. >> Yes. And and there's always so much. that's available. >> Have you been able to achieve this. yourself? >> Well, I'll I'll tell you what what. >> thing to accept it, all the all the. stuff. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Well, I'll tell you what what.

I can do. And and it helps because to me. it really engages my imagination. Is if. something doesn't go well, and it or you. know, the way I want it to and the way, you know, that I'm hoping it will, I can. very quickly. uh get into the mindset of it's not the. worst thing in the world. Like there's a. lot of other things I can do. Like and. then there's a Seneca quote in the book. that is kind of a clunky quote, but it. says nothing. can happen to you that bars you from.

something that's not even bigger. It's. basically whatever you feel like. you've been prevented from. Um there's. always so much more that you're not. prevented from. >> Yeah. >> And so I kind of switch into this. imaginative mindset where I just kind of. picture you know, the good things that. it can still happen. And and and I think. that every good thing in our life, I I. don't think it takes that much work to. connect it pretty directly to a previous. disappointment.

>> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. >> And so that's what I think is really. useful is it and once you really. internalize that, you learn to kind of. roll with the things that don't go your. way. >> Mhm. >> Um because you just realize, you know, it's all going to work out. It's all for. a reason. Something better is going to. come around. >> Okay. Adora struggles with her weight. >> Oh, yes. >> And there's a very funny and relatable. passage here on page 103. Sweat trickled. down the back of my jumbo calves. Why. had I eaten those cookies? If I started. work on Monday, that only gave me 3 days.

to lose weight. And if I took two step. classes, this is so me. If I took two. step classes a day and ate nothing but. cabbage soup, oh remember that cabbage. soup? >> Yes. >> I ate nothing but cabbage soup, I could. lose 6 lb. Not great. If the show. started a week later, I could lose 20. >> Right. >> These are thoughts that so many women. have had over the years. So, I mean, have you had those thoughts yourself? Or. do women come up to you and say, "How do. you articulate so well exactly what.

we're thinking?". >> I've certainly had those thoughts. myself, I'm sorry to say. I mean, the. hundreds of hours that I've wasted uh. you know, fantasizing about how my life. would change if I was 20 lb lighter, all. the doors that would magically open to. me, and how loved and successful I would. be. And and. I'm writing that from Adora's point of. view in the flashback when she's. younger. >> That's right. >> And and that's really was definitely my. mindset, just yo-yo dieting, just.

self-hatred, hating my body, thinking. that if I was thin, my life would. magically change. And I really wanted to. write a character from. from someone who had no really no strong. sense of self. And to turn over your. sense of well-being and hope and. anything because you're thin is just a. prescription for. kind of insanity and and unhappiness. And so I really wanted to, you know,

write Adora as a young person in that. way so we could contrast her with the. Adora we meet in the beginning of the. book. >> right. >> Yes, and then we see how she got there. And and also how kind of hard won her. serenity is. So that when it starts to. get challenged by Digby, you know, we. were like, "Don't. don't go crazy again, Adora. You know, you you you you you got it all figured. out. Don't throw it all away.". >> Well, one of our book club readers, Rebecca, is joining us from California.

Hi, Rebecca. >> Hi. Uh I did want to say first off, Adora is like, I feel like she's the. woman that you would meet at like a. friend's dinner party and that you would. want to sit next to her. >> Yes. >> Just become her friend and be part of. her coven, like ideally. >> Yeah. >> I um feel like she's very relatable in a. lot of ways. So Adora in LA specifically. felt like I associated with her because. when I moved to LA 18 years ago, I knew. nobody, I felt totally adrift, and I.

leaned heavily into like all of the. Buddhism, the meditation, the radical. acceptance, and I think looking back at. now, I feel like a very different. version of that person. And as a reader, I think we also get. different versions of Adora throughout. the book. I wondered which version of. Adora was like the the first version for. you? Did you start with like current day. New York, and then you created like the. backstory and the scaffolding, or was it.

baby Adora and then you moved forward? >> Uh it certainly was. uh present-day Adora is where I started. And it's a very good question because, you know, I know every people start very. different ways, but it was definitely. the present-day Adora. And the more I. kind of built her out, I I started just. wondering like why does she need. Stoicism so badly? What happened to her. that she needed to just kind of.

put this entirely ancient operating. system into herself to replace what she. had had before. [snorts]. And I just started thinking about what. that was. And I I'm very interested in. character. I mean I mean personal. character, and that's what Stoicism. really is about is like strong personal. character. And and when I think about. that, I just just feel a lot of shame. about my past, and I feel like I didn't. have good character for many years. I.

didn't even again know. the. the the concept of good personal. character. And so I I was raised. Catholic, but I was never taught. character. I was taught to be kind of. afraid of nuns and to to lie in. confession so you didn't have too many. Hail Marys. But I never really had like. an ethical training system. And so I. really then kind of reverse engineered. the young Adora according to that. You. know, and it just made it very. interesting to me.

>> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Thanks for loving the book. Thank you, you. >> Thanks, Rebecca. Adora. >> There's a There's a conversation between. Adora and her Gen Z daughter, Viv, about. their generational divide and the. tension between, you know, mothers and. daughters. You all know all about this. Why Was this based on a moment in your. own relationship? >> Well, um so I have a daughter who's. older than Viv now, but she was once. teenager. And Viv is definitely an.

exaggerated version of my daughter. And. it's funny because when I gave the book. to my daughter to read, I said to her, "You know, just make it past the first. 20 pages cuz Adora's really harsh on. Viv. She really thinks she has terrible. character and is very open about it. And. if you read the book, you're going to. think I just really don't like you. Don't like anything about you. But don't. worry, there's method to my madness. Viv. is going to come to life and kind of. steal the book at the end. And And she.

does." And everybody ends up loving Viv. And so, um if you're asking me if my. daughter has said uh that I'm uh "an. old, joyless person who's just trying to. take away her uh. happy youth." Uh yes, words to that. effect have been spoken in my household. >> [laughter]. >> All right. Laura's joining us from. Arizona. Laura, hi. >> Hi. I get to talk to Maria. >> Yes. >> Thank you for reading.

>> Hi, Laura. >> I I thoroughly enjoyed the book, and it. was exactly this relationship between. Adora and Viv that spoke to me the most. I am a divorced mom of a certain age, and I have a teenage daughter. So there were moments where I laughed. out loud because their text message. chats could be ours. Um so those moments. really spoke to me, and I think that's. probably why I was so gutted and maybe. even a little defensive in the scene in. the Café de Flore in Paris. where Viv finally lets.

all of those tense emotions out and says. to her mother, you know, how wounded she. is that her mother is dismissive about. her feelings and her experiences and her. generation's challenges. So, my question for you is one, was that. an intentional choice? It seems like. Adora may have a bit of a blind spot. even in her own stoicism practice where. her daughter is concerned. So, was that. an intentional drafting choice on your. part? >> Yes, very much so. That's very astute. Thank you for that question. Is that one. of the hardest things for me in writing.

the book is I really did want Adora to. be as harsh as possible. to Viv in the beginning without you. disliking her. You know, when I was kind. of trying to push it because I knew. where it would go. Uh, you know, this. kind of goes to the title a little bit. is go gentle is that with stoicism. you go hard on yourself. and easy on other people. And and I feel. like there's this hole in it which is. Adora's relationship with Viv that she.

just can't res- she can't apply that to. her own daughter. And I think the reason. why I did that is because. um, stoicism is very male. It's like. very bro culture now. You know, and even. though I like it and I'm I'm into it, I. feel like it doesn't really leave room. for the experience of being a mother. And in fact, one of my favorite lines in. the book is a line that's not even mine. It came to me from my editor Lindsey.

Sagnet and it's when Adora um, has had a. really hard day, has gone through all. the stoic possibilities to make her. better and and it doesn't work and she. gets into bed with Viv who's asleep and. she hugs her daughter and she says, "The. stoics made some good points, but none. of them were mothers. And and it's just. like the love of the child is what she. needs. And and and the thought that like.

you you would be okay losing your child. I mean, cuz that's what the Stoics say. is you should just like not be attached. to anything. And like the attached that. attachment that a mother has to a child. is a really wonderful part of life. Like. why are you why would anybody want to. rid themselves of that? And so I was. really trying to bring that pers- that. kind of. alternate perspective into the Stoic. practice through Viviane Adora. >> Thank you, Laura. Thank you.

>> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. >> Yes. >> So you write on page 75, "When a woman. decides to leave a marriage as late in. life as I did, she's not leaving the. marriage to find someone better. She's leaving the marriage because. anything would be better than the. marriage. Anything being that she'll. most likely die alone. Finding a man was. never top of mind. It wasn't even on. mine." Why was this important for you to. explore? >> Because again, I I wanted Adora to be.

really happy being single. I think that. that really was was something where and. and perhaps she's in denial a little bit. about it. Um and. I think that that it it showed her kind. of resilience and I think it's part of. the coven is that is that when she she. prides herself on perceiving reality. correctly. And and part of that. perception of correct reality in her. mind is that in her late 50s, you know,

all the age-appropriate men are dating. women in their 30s and 40s and they're. not available. And they're just not. around and it most likely will never. happen. And so. instead of bemoaning that fate or. feeling like a big victim or getting. angry at men, why not just make the best. of it and put the coven together and. devote herself to philosophy and her. daughter. And so I. that that's the reason why I was kind of. so harsh about that. >> I had my own favorite quotes from the.

book. Um. Cease to hope and you will cease to. fear. And I wanted to know is that a. favorite quote of yours? >> Well, it's so interesting. I mean, I. find it so fascinating because. hope you don't think of it as a bad. thing. >> Yeah. >> Like like I didn't I've never seen it. cast as a bad thing, like as something. that makes you afraid. But if you really. think about it, if you're hoping, you. want something. >> to be is it is it not? >> and and as it's not, that's out of your. control. And so you it does kind of put.

you in a sense of fear. >> Yes. >> That you really want the thing to be. happening. So I think that's just like a. very interesting um insight and I think. it's true. >> Okay, small-minded people blame others, I said now to Lionel. Average people. blame themselves, the wise blame nobody. >> Oh, if only, right? >> [laughter]. >> If only. >> Yes. >> Only. It's not enough to be happy, you. have to be aware of it and enjoy being. happy. It's a subtle distinction, but. it's the difference between living and.

being truly alive. In that moment I made. a point of immensely enjoying my. happiness. >> Yes, I love that. I I. I. I don't know how I came up with that, but I just realized that to. lightly go through being happy is not. enough. Life is short and you have to. just be so. >> to know that you're in the happiness. >> in the happiness and being so happy. Like right now, I'm very much in. happiness, [laughter]. Oprah. Thank you very much. I'm deeply. in happiness. >> I am with you. >> [laughter].

>> Go slowly, I told myself. This is my. only opportunity to hear the actual. words being spoken. I love this one. because it allows you to my one chance. to ascent to reality before it gets. distorted by emotion. >> Oh, that is just such a beautiful. sentence. >> It's so true because you know, I have. anxiety. I think a lot of people. struggle with that and that if you're in. a situation, often you know, I'm really. the queen of hearing what I want to hear. and not what somebody said. And so I. really try to just take out all of you.

know, what I want to have happen in the. interaction and just try to say what is. actually happening so that when I think. about it later, I have the facts and not. my and I'm not basing it on some fantasy. that I wish the words had been spoken. >> I like this one, character is fate. >> Yes, Heraclitus. That's a quote. >> Heraclitus, yes. >> Yes. Yeah, that Oh God, I think that. just says it all. I think that that if. you really uh. intend to be a good person and to be.

wise and to be modest and to do your. work and to keep your head down, then. good things will happen to you. Then I. think fate will take care of you. >> Heraclitus, character character is fate. And this one from Thoreau, I'd never. heard before. My Thanksgiving is perpetual. >> Mhm. Isn't it beautiful? He said that. Oh, I'm going to cry. He said that about. nature. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> My Thanksgiving is perpetual. >> Right, right. And I just I love that and. and that's what. what Adora thinks about Actually, I. think Thoreau said that about nature and.

philosophy together. That it was. philosophy and nature when he he was in. in that mindset, in nature reading. philosophy. He said my Thanksgiving is. perpetual. >> So those were mine and then you have a. whole handbook of Adora's. >> Yes, and that's based on a 70-page one. that I made for myself that I keep. editing and reprinting. >> Nothing is heavy if we take it lightly, Seneca. >> Yes. >> The most important contribution to peace. of mind is never to do wrong. Okay. >> Okay, yeah. Yeah.

Thanks a lot. That really helps. >> [laughter]. >> The greatest remedy for anger is delay. Anyway, all of these are just a door as. handbook for how to live. >> Yes, that came from your handbook for. how to live. >> Exactly. I love it all. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you. >> You've said that my number one. consideration is always the reading. experience. >> Yes. >> And we can tell that as as as as readers. that you have us in mind. Uh and you say that to me Go Gentle is a. book of ideas. I can't wait to get to.

talking about it with my readers. What. is it you hope that the reading. experience would be? >> Well, all I want is just a good time, you know? I feel like I just want the. page to be turned and for people to get. to the end of the book. I feel like if. they get and I love how quickly everyone. knows. Yeah, a day and a half. Yeah, it's amazing. So I feel like, "Wow, I. did it." And uh and so that's really. what I want to do and you know, I'm not. really trying to expose people to. stoicism, but apparently I have and they.

like it. So that's kind of amazing. That. really was never my intention, but I. think um I I. you know, want to show people a a good. time and maybe laugh along the way and. feel along the way, you know? And learn. to love better. I think ultimately this. is a book about love and loving better. And so I think that that really should. be. what art does, you know? Is make you. want to love better. >> Well, that's what you do and I thank you. for doing it, for showing us a good time. in Go Gentle, which is available.

wherever you buy your books. And thank. you all the readers who got their copies. in advance and were able to share your. questions with us today. Talking about. great books is one of my favorite things. to do. My 122nd. book club pick, Go Gentle, is available. now wherever books are sold. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.