Mara Brock Akil’s New Novel About Betrayal, Shame & Redemption with Oprah

Mara Brock Akil is bringing her gift of. storytelling to the world of fiction in. her debut novel. >> I like when [laughter] you say it. The. debut novel, The Revelation of Dion. Daphne. >> This young woman is on the train. >> She's on the train headed outside the. city of New York because she's ashamed. that she has to take an [music] HIV. test. >> Mhm. >> Because two nights prior, her ex of five. years tells her, "I have HIV and you. need to go get tested.".

She has to [music] write down all the. names of her lovers and at the top of. the list is her stepfather. >> Is her stepfather? >> [music]. >> I was as shocked as as she was if not. more. >> What is so interesting for me having. been a victim of sexual abuse from a. very young age, nine years old, many of. you who watch. >> Nine, for me, too. >> Yeah. Nine years old, being raped at. nine and then continuously sexually. molested over the years by various. boyfriends [music]. of my mothers and my cousins, these. older men. >> Mhm. >> You You know, you just said the story is.

for everybody, but was the story also. for you? >> [music]. >> So, you have written about it in the. book through Dion Daphne. Do you mind. sharing what actually happened to you? >> I would share [music] this. >> Hi there, everybody. Thanks for hanging. out with us here on the Oprah podcast. today. Television luminary and creator Mara. Brock Akil. She has written, she has. produced, she has directed over 400.

episodes. Did you even know that. yourself? >> You know, not until we had to count for. the bio. I was like. >> [laughter]. >> Over 400 episodes, that's a lot of work, of some of the most celebrated shows, Girlfriends, which is having its own. resurgence. >> 25 years. 25 years and. being on Netflix for five years has just. garnered a whole new audience. I. >> That's right. >> The 16-year-olds love me, Oprah. >> [laughter]. >> It's like Girlfriends is like, you know,

the forever of of their time, I guess. >> Absolutely. Okay, so there's Girlfriends. and there's Being Mary Jane and there's. The Game, y'all, and our latest smash. hit series for Netflix, Forever. Forever Forever Forever, which now is We're going to have a. season two. >> We're going to have a season two. We. start rolling cameras tomorrow. Yes. >> That is so exciting to hear. Okay, so. you were just sharing with me share with. the audience you're walking down the. street. >> Mhm. >> Forever has been up on next Netflix now.

for. >> I think it was about day three or day. four and we were number one. And you. know, when you think about it, you're. like, number one, you're like, oh, wait. a minute. We're number one in the world. And there's all these people on the. street, you know how New York is? And I was thinking, they don't know it's. me. They don't know that it's me right. now for. >> know you know what I'm. >> I'm the number one. >> [laughter]. >> And my little girl just was happy. She. was I was so happy. I was walking down. the street smiling in New York and then, um, I think the next day I got the call.

that the official call um. >> that they were picking it up. >> picking it up for a season two. >> That's so wonderful. >> Yeah, it was wonderful. It was It was It. was so wonderful. I I I celebrated so. much I broke my toe. >> [laughter]. >> You broke your toe? >> Yeah, I just was dancing around my. apartment and just in glee. You know, those, um, those private moments that. are. >> are are yours. >> Nothing like a broken toe memory. >> I have a broken toe moment. >> And so now Mara Brock Akil is bringing.

her gift of storytelling to the world of. fiction in her debut novel. >> [screaming]. >> I like when you say it. [laughter]. >> the debut novel, The Revelation of Dion. Daphne. Welcome to the tea house, Mara Brock. Akil. >> Thank you for having me. I'm so. overjoyed to be here. >> You The fact that you are now diving. into this whole new world of writing or. is it is it a new world of writing going. into the novel form? >> It's funny. I like to say as Maya would. say, I'm an authoress now.

>> [laughter]. >> But it's you know, my process is the. same. In terms of. what I latch on to and sometimes it. comes through visions. It comes through. visions. I'll see scenes. I'll see and. those are puzzle pieces. >> Uh-huh. >> And I just put a puzzle piece here and a. puzzle piece here. What was so. refreshing about. the book was. how much I got to explore the. interiority. One of the challenges that I have in in.

screenwriting is how do I not say it, not not. say exactly what the character or the. plot or the theme is in dialogue. How? Because a lot of human my experience. certainly for myself and my. my experiencing and witnessing of. others, we don't really say what we. really mean. We are just really I think that's what. was fun about writing Being Mary Jane. because she said what she meant. >> Right. And why we love that character so. much. >> Yes, but I don't believe a lot of us do.

sometimes. And so how the book gave me. just a great. um just great bandwidth to explore. interiority which. in my work in general, that's what I. want but that's the legacy I want to. leave is that I have painted portraits. of full humanity and the having a new. canvas, a book was just. it was extraordinary. >> Had you been thinking about it for a. while? I mean, I think it's a it's a.

totally different art form that people. think it's the same thing, but you know, it's different. A lot of novelists. cannot write screenplays and a lot of. screenplay writers cannot write a novel. >> No. I You know, it's um I want to want. to honor Chelsea Johnson who called me. What's interesting is during COVID when. everybody got a chance to slow down and. think, she reached out to me and said, "I believe your voice" she's my editor, "I believe your voice would translate to. the page beautifully.". And. it's funny enough, I had a story that I.

wanted to tell for a long time and it. and I had it in script notes for a. while. I had, you know, when I build. anything, I have a lot of research, a. lot of notes, a lot that you never will. see that informs what makes the page. And um so I was taking notes on this. idea and I knew it got shelved because. who's going to buy this industry I I. knew this industry was not going to buy. this story. Even as prolific as I am, this was going to be a tough sell to.

sort of like pitch this story as a film. >> Oh, this is a film. >> But it is because. I think I got to prove it in the book. >> Okay. >> But I don't. >> As I'm reading this book, [laughter] I'm. like, who's going to play who's going to. play. >> [laughter]. >> I'll discuss that with you later. >> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. Uh and. >> [laughter]. >> I I I I I. you said you wrote this novel with the. intention of taking the reader through a. story that may be familiar, one of. isolation, shame, >> Yep.

>> resilience, and the redemptive power of. love. >> Mhm. >> So, who are you writing the book for? >> You know, I don't want to be cliche and. say everyone, but anybody who wants to. unload their shame. >> Yeah. >> Anybody who wants to talk about it, think about it, let go of it. Um that's. who the book is for. What I'm excited. though is as universal as that story is, the specificity of of letting Dion, a. young black woman.

in the '90s. who didn't think she had a problem in. the world take us take us on that. journey to be at the tip of the arrow to. talk about shame and her to be very. brave and vulnerable to share her story. Hopefully we'll give permission to. anyone who carries any level of shame. >> Okay, so we don't want to give away too. many spoilers you all, but I want to. tell I want you to tell us about the. characters and the plot, what they're. facing. >> No spoilers, but. I think the reason why it reads like a.

film is because I think a lot of stories. you want to drop them in. So I drop you. in the book where this young woman is. on the train. >> On the train, yeah. >> And you know. >> You can do that. That's first page. >> Okay, that's first page. >> [laughter]. >> Okay, I can do that. >> Yeah. >> Guide me through this one. >> She's on the train. >> She's on the train. She's got it She's. got her look together and she's she's. headed to she's headed outside the city. of New York because she's ashamed that. she has to take an HIV test. >> Mhm. >> Because two nights prior. after having finally gotten over her man.

of five years and and and feeling like. he's not coming back, it's the first. night, six months after they broke up, that she's bringing home a man. And on the same night that she is having. sexual relations with him. >> For the first time after being in this. long-term relationship. >> Exactly. There's a knock at the door. >> Yep. >> And it's her ex of five years and. he tells her, you know, "I have HIV and. you need to go get tested.".

And so the book takes place within the. two weeks of that test. And she's on that train and one of the. homework. >> And the book So you So the book takes. place within the two weeks because when. she goes for the test, they say, "We. can't get the results for two weeks.". And I'm like, "Wow, I remember. >> You That was the '90s. We had to wait. >> That was the longest two weeks of. anyone's life is to wait for that result. and I. I I took the test back in the day. I was. a a journalist. I was covering a story.

on World AIDS Day and for the Grand. Rapids Press and you know, this is a. time when we when AIDS was a gay man's. disease. I'm having a I'm as a reporter and I. remember this woman walking past me in. the hall and I thought, "Gosh, she's. gorgeous." I shopped her. I always shop. like I shop, too. I was like, "Ooh, that's cute. That's. cute." Let me get to the press. conference on time cuz I'm the you know, I'm a reporter. >> [laughter]. >> So, I'm in the back of the room and she. is the woman who is telling us that she.

has she's HIV positive. My job. Hit the floor. And that's what. >> was this? What year was this? >> This is 1990. or 1991. Either 90 or 91. >> Yeah. >> And uh I think 91 cuz cuz it was a time. and I was floored. I mean, literally I I. It's funny. I was in I was at. Northwestern at the time and when I got. back to school, I took an HIV test. And. um one of the homeworks you have is that. you have to write down all of your.

sexual. relations because in case you have this. >> It. >> in case you have it, you have to go. contact them. That's how we were. stopping the disease at that time. Kind of like COVID. Kind of reminds you. of that. And so, Dion, I thought I'd give that to Dion. and where she has to go back, her. homework is she has to write down all. the names of her lovers. And so, and at the top of the list. is her stepfather. >> Is her stepfather? >> Whoa. >> Yes. >> And when that when Okay, so we're going.

to stop there in the book and then the. rest of it is unveiled. >> So then what and so in that at that. moment, it was her So, her her ex, Darren, >> Yes. >> is is in the book and we discover why. and how he got to that place. Um there's her new lover. He's in the. book and she has to figure out how to. tell him. >> And then there's a witness. >> Yeah. >> There's you know, one one fun fact is I. don't know we get to experience this. anymore that your paper gets your paper.

used to be dropped off in front of your. house every day at 3:00 a.m., 4:00 a.m. and somebody had to do that. >> That's right. >> And so I've always been fascinated by. that person who drops your. >> Gets up in the in the middle of the. night. >> I've always been fascinated by that. >> Mara's fascination with who these people. are and I decided to make him her. witness. This young man who has been dropping the. paper at her door every night was there. at the time. >> Yeah. >> And so he is the one that helps her. usher. um usher through this two weeks.

>> Yeah. >> as she turns around and faces. >> And and the book is the two weeks is the. countdown waiting on waiting on the. results. So you shared this on. Instagram. You said, "Through the. process of writing I earned earth the. truth that became a fictional tale, the. revelation of Deondra Daphne and. witnessing my own healing. I experienced. a revelation and my hope is that the. story offers a revelation for you too.". That's what you wrote. >> I did. >> And so. when I saw that, I said, "How. were you telling this story?

You you know, you just said the story is. for everybody, but was the story also. for you, Mara Brock Akil?". >> I think we're responsible for our own. healing. >> Mhm. >> And I have used the power of the pen to. not only. tell stories and entertain, but also to. heal myself. I've put myself in a lot of. my characters. A part of my. um. ethos is I I tell the truth through. fiction. So there's going to be some. level of real truth that I am really I'm. drawing from and I'm grateful that I. have the ability to learn how to craft.

it in a way that really becomes this. micro story of mine becomes a macro of. of what's impacting a lot of us and I. can find it through the workshopping of. the story about who this book is for, why this book now and there's just a lot. of shame I think because even with the. onset of the camera and the social. media, we're hiding parts of ourselves. >> Absolutely. >> We're just hiding so much of ourselves. and actually I think it's the thing that. frees us the most. And so, the writing. the book was a opportunity for me to.

free myself. >> is, you know, what is so interesting for. me having been a victim of sexual abuse. from a very young age, 9 years old. Many. of you. >> Nine for me, too. >> Yeah. 9 years old. And. being raped at 9, and then continuously. sexual molested sexually molested over. the years by various boyfriends of my. mothers and my cousins, these older men. >> Mhm. >> And this is what I think most people.

don't realize is that when you see these. young girls, you know, being very. promiscuous at a young age, it is. usually because the sexual stimulation, the sexual whatever has been turned on. in such a way that they're now, you. know, alert to to to what that means. So, you have written about it in the. book through Deion Gaffney. Do you mind. sharing what actually happened to you? >> I would share this that it was it was a.

time in my life that I was it was from 9. to 12 that I was. that I was molested. And what was. interesting to me at that time, and this. is where where the book comes into play, is how well I managed. >> Mhm. >> And. I managed by one of the greatest gifts. I've ever had was that's where my. relationship with God truly began. >> Mhm. >> That my my relationship is rooted in.

that, and sometimes I even think about. um if that had never happened, where. would my relationship with God be? And. so, thus and such, well, it happened to me. And God loves me, so. I'm supposed to do something with it. And now, all these years later, I. believe this is my something to do with. it. >> Mhm. >> The second thing that I realized is how. much you can repurpose energy. I didn't. have that language at that time.

>> Yes. >> But I channeled at that point. my escape of. my mother's choices. Like I was in the. care of this person because of her. And I know she did it out of love. Then she was clueless, too. But at that time I knew that I had to. escape. And the best way I knew how to escape is. through what my family believes in is. education. >> Mhm. >> So I became this amazing student. So I.

also became that much more undetected. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I I came further and further. No one. could kind of see and then I put the. good girl image up. >> Yeah. >> I I hid around the I hid around the. corners. I You know, people can project onto you and so you. can allow that story to be true. If if. they think good of you. and whether you however you feel about. yourself in those quiet moments, you can then adopt that ideas of. yourself to get you through. So I think.

my relationship with God, my ability to. understand how to alchemize that pain. and energy and focus it in my grades and. keep graduation and getting to the best. school as my escape plan. >> As so many of us have done. >> Yes. But here's the interesting thing. about the character um Deion uh in the. book, when she has to go to the clinic, the AIDS clinic and take the test, as. you were saying, you have to I I didn't I didn't know if. this was real or not, but that you had. she had to list all of the people she'd.

ever slept with in her life beginning. with the very first person. Which I. thought was interesting because I. thought it would be like the person you. most recently slept with. >> Yeah, you do. You start from It's funny. Yes, and that's what the she does. She. starts from you know, the last one she. had is the guy the one night stand she. just had. Well, she knows it's going to. be a one night stand, but. >> [laughter]. >> and then her boyfriend. >> Yeah. >> And then and then you get to see all the. other ones up up there. And and I. >> And then there's the top of the list. >> of the list is her stepfather.

>> Was her stepfather. And in the book on. page 201, the character Deion says, "I knew how to compartmentalize. our nights from our days, the same way I. learned to separate myself from my. body.". >> Ooh. >> Yeah. >> I didn't know I was doing that all those. years. You know, when you're performing. I don't know if I'm I was performing how. disconnected I have been from my own. body. I was so I'm so compartmentalized.

I just recently in my adult life let my. food touch. I didn't realize how psychologically. separate. >> on your plate? >> Yeah, on my plate. My food never. touched. Never. >> of those people. >> I am. >> Okay. >> And I didn't even know why I was doing. that. These examinations of this thing, I'm like, "Oh my god, Mar, you didn't. let your food touch.". Um. >> And so after you were sexually molested. sexually molested, did you do this, too? You learned to compartmentalize. >> Yes, you learn Yes, you learn how to be.

the different parts of yourself, fragmented, puzzle yourself out to hide. this thing, to hide this um. um you know, I was told that if I told. anyone I gave this to Deion, if I had. told anyone that I would be taken away, you know, from my. from my mother. And you know, it's just. like. What You know, you're a child. >> Right. >> You don't know. You don't know what's. true or not. And um so. But the compartmentalization. of self is.

one way the victory of me, because just. like I talked about the grades, I. understood how to keep my focus around. my escape plan, if that makes sense. You can hold on to the great. the. the straight A student. what meanwhile. you know, prepare yourself sometimes for. the night. You mentally, physically um. and it's funny about the. about when I say the.

the food on my plate. I started to. notice my behavior. The other thing. that's really interesting about. compartmentalization. >> your behavior? >> Just how I keep things separate. Sometimes even friends, sometimes even. like how much I try to control every. environment so I can survive it. >> So you're doing that because you. couldn't control being molested by. somebody who is so much older than you. >> You're looking for control in so many. different ways. >> older was the person than you? >> Oh, they were a full-grown man. >> Yeah, full-grown man. >> I mean.

>> when you think I I know I mean. >> teenager, not a 20-something. >> When I look back at my 9-year-old self. >> Oh gosh. >> see your 9-year-old self and your little. skinny brown legs and your knobby knees. >> and your teeth that don't fit, that's. going every different direction. They're. not even fully in. >> think what a pervert. >> How could they even see. >> How? >> Yes, you know, even you know, when my. own children became of that age, you. know, I took the time to cry those. moments.

out. because I thought the same thing. How. could anybody touch. a child at that age and then and of. course we know it happens. >> all the time. >> time and. earlier. >> Much earlier. >> So. >> longer periods of time. But the one. other thing I'd like to say about. compartmentalization. is memory. It's funny in my work now we're working. I don't even like to call it flashbacks. I'm trying to trying to articulate. memory and it can be dan- memory can. also be very dangerous. But one of the. things that.

is trying to get your memory back. So in. the book you see that Deion is trying to. get her memory back because a lot of. times when you compartmentalize you got. to keep things sorted. >> Well, one of the things I love about. this book, too, is that one of the. things that that the reason it's called. The Revelation of Dion Daphne is that. once she goes to get the AIDS test, it. starts to reveal a lot of the why of the. why of the why she's behaved the way she. has. Why has she had so many lovers? Why. does she, you know, behave the the way.

that she does? And also reveals, you. know, all these things about family and. family connections and why every time. her mother's on the phone, "Oh, your. father wants to say wants to say hello.". And why she never wanted to get on the. phone and all of that. >> Yeah, you just start to And it looks. just like, "Oh, I'm busy. I'm I'm, you. know, I'm booked and busy and I've got a. promotion in my life.". >> she had to compartmentalize that. Yes. So, I love to read books at the same. time as my daughter girl Tondo does. And. I gave Tondo a copy of this book and she.

was. would not shut up. >> Hi Tondo. I'm so happy. I love that. That's. having a conversation. >> able to have a conversation about it. And we were like into like, "Can you. believe Dominic? Can you believe what he. said?" Okay. Hi Tondo. >> Hi. Hi Mama. >> Hi. How are you? So, tell us why you. like this book so much. Why was it a. page turner for you? >> Page turner. I literally. I I finished it in 24 hours.

>> Oh my god. Okay. Let me pause on that. one for a second. Okay. >> [laughter]. >> I love that. Thank you. >> I'm not kidding. Mama, am I joking? >> You're not joking. I said I said to you, I said, "I'm going to send it to you. Just read to page 105." And then you. called me and said, "I finished it.". >> Oh, that's why you were on page 105. >> Okay. Just read to page Just read to. page 105. Let me know. Catch up with me. and then I'll continue reading with you. And then she goes, "I finished it." I. go, "Well, what?" [laughter]. >> Thank you so much. >> Cuz how could you not? How could you. not? I want to know what happens after.

the 12 days. I I got to a point where I. was like, "Oh, I'm desperate. I need. [laughter] to know.". And if this causes her to lose her hope, you know what? First of all, such. important themes because. we almost have forgotten that HIV was a. thing. It was such a stigma. It was It. was such a. It was almost a death sentence. I was. born in South Africa where there was an. era where we lost so many people in our. family. Every single week there was.

somebody who has been lost to this. illness. because of the fear, of the shame, of. the stigma that it was to family. In. your own family. In my own family. Yes. >> In my own family because of the stigma. that it was to even go to the clinic to. get those results. >> Exactly. >> You know, to even have the courage The. courage she had to to write down the. list, go back to each person. You know, some people would rather live in. absolute silence and die in the quiet of.

the night because it just takes so much. to go to the place where you're. revealing to anybody else that you're. living with this even when it's not your. fault. This is the thing about Dion. The. The fact that. everything was great. Fine by all the. the the measures and metrics of success. and the way she where she was headed, everything was great. She You look at. her life and the trajectory of it and. you think, "Oh, she's above shame. She's. above an experience like this. She's.

above the words, 'I am HIV positive.'. You know?". And so, yeah, that overarching theme. super brilliant. Bravo for me. >> goodness. I I'm enjoying just Thank you. for that. The generosity of the. reflection of of it. It It. What What's interesting to me about um. My children play video games. And you. know, there's the main character. We. always talk about main character energy. But there are all these these non-player.

characters, right? I'm always interested. in those people. And that's the play you. think that they're just moving along. I'm just successful. Nothing's wrong. with me. I'm above shame. Let's pluck them out and let's put them. let's look at them. Let's open them up. Let's reveal them. Let's understand. them. Let's understand their why. Um and. so that was uh. that was a journey not only for me, but. it was fun to then incorporate what is. happening around us today and it's. interesting about HIV.

>> You did. That gas station you did. You. did. >> [laughter]. >> You did. Anyway, I'm like Dominique, oh. no. Okay. Okay. Okay, what's your. question? What's your question? Tanda. >> Okay, this the thing about this book. centers around trust a lot. And trust. that that revolves around her long-term. relationship. Parents, this is these are trust people. you give trust in the grandest measure,

you know? Her and her partner were doing. things like going house shopping. We're. talking about rings. We're talking about. So at this point you know they're so far. in their relationship that it is solid. She trusts She trusts him without a. doubt, without a question. Now, I want. to know what it is that we misunderstand. about trust because how. with the person that you think you know. absolutely everything about you at this. point they're planning on getting. married. You You're like, I know him. I.

I know this man, you know? And for him. to pull out that kind of that surprise. on her, I was as shocked as as she was. [laughter] if not more. The way she was. avoiding even having the question, I. said, "Girl, I know. >> [laughter]. >> Don't look at him. He has betrayed all of us.". >> You know, it's interesting trust. I. don't think we're really going to get to. that level of idyllic trust in others if. we're not that to ourselves. And.

as much as she did all the right things, I don't believe. Dion never took stock of what happened. She never faced the storm of her life. >> I thought he was giving her signals all. along. >> Oh, he Oh, he. >> I thought he was telling her all along. >> He was, but we don't want to know that. >> I don't know. I don't feel that she should have been. put putting all of that trust in him. because he was signaling signaling to. her that he was not the one. >> But you see what you want to see. >> But you see what you want to see and. this is what you and I were discussing. but she had this ideal of who he was and.

she saw herself in the picket fence and. the house and then the other one. >> was she was She was trusting the picture. in her head, not the person in front of. her. >> That's right. As so many women do. They're they're they're they're living. to the possibility. >> Yeah, oh and. >> Day one. They're living to the. possibility [laughter]. there's he's got the Ivy League. pedigree, he's got all of that going and. they're just living to the possibility. >> any Yes, it's. >> instead of the reality. >> Absolutely. I feel like that is that. that is that is then, that is now, that. is happening and so that's allows for.

Dion or me to have a conversation with. you right now because to your point, are. we So how do we trust then? That would. be the question then. It's how do we do. that? How do we How do we see that? If. we're looking for something outside of. ourselves all the time. >> this a movie? Didn't we say this. >> [laughter]. >> this is a movie? Come on, Netflix. This. is a movie. Ted. Come on, Ted. Come on. This is it. We're. reading the book. We need the movie by. next year. Thank you so much. [laughter].

>> Yes. >> I got I got to get to it. I got to get. to it. Get to it. >> I said it's definitely a movie and I'm. submitting a tape for it. >> You're submitting a tape. >> [laughter]. >> Way to go. You You look amazing. >> All right. Thanks, Sundra. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Okay. So Marion is joining us. from Florida. Marion, what was your. takeaway from the book? >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Hi. How are you? I'm good. And this also was a. page-turner. I actually stayed up until. like 2:00 a.m. cuz I couldn't put it.

down. >> Wow. >> And I was crying cuz I actually felt. really seen and heard even if it is a. fiction. Like I related so much to all. the details. Um from me, I was sexually. abused at 10. I related to protecting my. sister. I related to the eldest daughter. like also with the character and with. what you said like high-performing. So, you don't look like the typical right. what people think. >> Mhm. >> is a victim of sexual abuse. And also.

the symptoms of like your body keeping. the score and feeling it. Like I related. to her rage that would come out. sometimes. And she like when she started. unpacking, she realized a lot of her. actions and how she had memory blocks. were all part of it. So, like yeah, I. related so much. And my takeaways were. you never really know. Someone can have. a picture-perfect life. And oftentimes, I look back. I think.

that I'm so high-performing because of. my trauma. >> Mhm. >> And I didn't realize that until I. actually OD'd and had a. near-death experience. That was the. catalyst for finally unpacking. everything. So, my takeaway was you just never know. And there're probably so many more. women, especially women of color, who. are in silence yet don't look the part. >> Mhm. >> Don't look the part. I think most of us. don't look the part because of that. thing that.

that that that Mara writes about about. compartmentalizing. It specifically. if you've hidden it from everybody. You. know, the people who the people who. don't tell have to compartmentalize in. in order to survive and that becomes a. part of our our survival skills. >> longer you don't tell. >> the the longer. >> you feel as though you don't have a. right to tell. >> Exactly. >> like, "Okay, well, maybe your memory is. wrong." And which, you know, kind of. comes up in the book. First of all, I. just want to say thank you for sharing. and just.

and I'm sorry. I think sharing our story. allows us to say, "I'm sorry that you. didn't deserve that." But I'm also proud. of you for getting yourself through that. and I think I would say that you. probably facing your storm is the way. through and I that's that's the takeaway. that I feel like the the release is. is through it. It's it's not avoiding it. >> But I I I like what you said in the. beginning that reading the book and I. think this is what's going to happen and. this is what Mara has done with her work. for all of the storytelling that she's.

done throughout the years. Makes me want. to tear up. Is that you make us feel. seen? >> Mhm. >> And you allow and that's what you said. at the beginning of this conversation. that reading this book you feel seen. She has the same feelings that you have. She has the same you you you know, emotional reactions that that you've had. and and what and what that does to all. of us when you real you read a book and. you say, "Wow, I am not alone. I am not. alone. I'm not alone.". >> And actually my question would be like,

"What else do we share to women who are. still in that silence?" Right? Like. >> Mhm. >> you know, who older cuz I cannot older, too. And it feels like Deion had all the. things and she was older to the women. who are still. kind of living that picture-perfect. life. >> that's a great question. I think that's. a great question. >> I think I would say. to own your story even now. >> I It is never too late to own. >> Yeah, to own the story and I think that.

for me my relationship with God, which. we talked about, it gave me permission. like if I believe that God. has everything for me, then you want me. to do something with this. And maybe. even just sharing your story with one. other person or in I guess my case. alchemizing my own pain to share it with. the world, it it gives permission for. other people to share theirs. Like you. sharing your story with me, it makes me. feel not so nervous. Now, I'm still. telling my story. You're braver than me.

You're telling your full story as who. you are. I get to take my pain and. alchemize it through a character. And. And but that gives us permission to. share so we can let the weight off of. us. And then I think we can begin to. know who we are. Because some of what. we've gone through will be who we are, really. You know what I'm saying? We And. And what parts of that experience are we. going to want to adopt that says, "You're okay. That's me. That's who I. am.". And then what are the parts that, you. know what, I don't like that? And my.

body, now that I have my body back in. sync with my heart, mind, and spirit, it. tells me, "We don't like that." And now. I have to find the voice, the silence. that I used that kept me trapped, use. that voice to to start to speak up. And. I I say start to do it in in in simple. places. I mean, I literally start small. Like they didn't get your order right on. your coffee, send it back. They didn't, you know, you asked for. something, they didn't give it to you,

have a conversation. I'm even at work. >> Learning Learning to speak up in small. ways for yourself. Start small. You. don't have to start with the big things. is what you're saying. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then you'll get to the big things. >> So, thank you so much, Maryann. Thank. you so much for sharing with us today. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Tell your friends about it. Don't you think the book is a movie? >> It is. Thank you. >> Thank you so much, Maryann. >> Thank you for reading it. Thank you. >> Philip also read it. Philip read it and. read the book. And Philip, hi. You have.

a comment and a question for Mara. >> Hi Phillip. >> Hey Mara. Hi Oprah, how you doing? >> Hi Phillip, good to see you. >> Good to see you, too. Um, the book is a banger. Just wanted to. let you know that. It's absolutely. incredible. Like, whole time I'm reading. it, I'm like, I just want I want a short. series. Like, I don't need I would love. a movie, but a short series would be. incredible. >> [laughter]. >> So, the limited series, huh? >> A limited series. >> limited series would be really, really. good cuz I want multiple episodes. >> Okay. Yeah, you're right. I would I.

actually like would like to spend more. time with the mom and dad and the mom. and mom and the stepfather and the home. and the that whole life and all of her. little friends and everybody coming and. I would I would I would You You don't. You want us to remember the series, huh? >> series. Sorry, Ted. [laughter] Yeah, please. >> Get the movie multi-part series. >> Limited. >> Limited series, okay. >> Yeah, we want we want to go on the. awards circuit. Okay, yeah. >> Limited series, okay. Okay, what did you want to say say, Phillip? >> Well, I really resonated with the. character Darren. Um, I was.

um molested as a child. Um, >> that led me to um. really have issues with my sexuality and. accepting the fact that I was gay. Um, so then I ended up joining a gay. conversion therapy church in college. >> How did that work out for you? >> How did that work out for you? >> Oh. >> Oh. >> [laughter]. >> It was. >> Wow. >> terrible. Terrible. Like, I just I. >> Abuse on top of abuse. >> Um, right. And I got I got married at 21. and I'm 40 now. I just came out of the.

closet last year. >> Oh, wow. >> got a divorce Yeah, just got a divorce. this past year. >> Wow, Phillip. >> Um, so. >> You married. You married. >> I ended up marrying the the leader of. the gay conversion therapy church's. sister. >> Oh, wow. >> Yes. And um. >> Did you do that because you thought you. were gay converted or you did it to try. to create another facade? >> Um, no, I didn't do it to create a. facade like a beard. She was She had met.

my ex-boyfriends. Um, she knew I went through the program. and. um, you know, she saw me go from wearing. flat fronts, she knows from Express to, you know, baggy clothes and. you know, assumed that I had been. converted into a straight man. Um, so. she was really under that programming as. well. Um, so. >> Did you believe you'd been converted. into a straight man? >> Yes, I was honestly believed I was. I. honestly believed I was converted. Um, now in retrospect I realized that my. sexuality is just on a spectrum and that.

I do have some attraction to women. But. I Unfortunately, I didn't have the. luxury to kind of find that out myself. because I was molested by a man. Um, and so and then in college, you. know, maybe I would have explored women. eventually. Um, so I think that's why. the marriage lasted as long as it did. cuz I did have a genuine uh, sexual. attraction to her as well. But I do skew. um, you know, towards men. I prefer men. >> Yeah. So So who I wanted to ask you who. So what did you think of the Darren. character? >> So I empathized with him because since I.

wasn't since I wasn't being completely. deceptive cuz I believed that I was. healed and freed and you know, I went. through the program, I wonder like did. you want to express that duality with. Darren um, as someone who I mean, he was. I don't I don't want to give away the. story, but um, you know, thankfully I didn't end up. with HIV and thankfully I didn't pass it. on to my partner cuz I did end up being. unfaithful um, to my wife. Um, I wonder.

what is the lens that you see Darren. through? >> I see the lens through. not being honest about what who we are. and what we want. And I think and to for. anyone. >> Bottom line, it comes down comes down to. honesty. >> Yeah, that you know, you can be with. someone for 5 years, know they want to. be married, know they want to spend the. rest of their life with you, want to. build a life with you and. and you dangle little things. in front of them because you want those. things too, but you're not really. but he didn't want her.

And um. and I think that's a lot of investment. of time, um especially at the best best. especially in the '90s when. every other article of four women was. your biological clock. You better get. that guy. You know, at the same time. they're telling us to be, you know, independent. So she's she's she's on a. quest to find her man so she can have. that baby, build that life, and he. didn't want that from her. And I think I. think through the lens of. but then.

I've got to shout out, you know, Medill. School of Journalism. Why? So that. Darren for me, I got to explore why are. some of these stories that we hear in. multitude, why the man How many stories. we've heard about women saying that he. took the best years of my life and he I. waited five years and I've done this and. I've done that. Well, I wanted to put my. lens on his why and explore what a. portrait of a black man would be could. be in 1991 in New York um for the.

successful successful black woman who's, you know, doing her thing at you know. and he's doing his thing and they look. like the perfect couple and everybody. projects onto the perfect couple, you. know, and so I wanted to pull that. couple apart and I wanted us to see who. they were and be reflection not only of. of then but still now. >> Well, I'm glad you saw pieces of. yourself in this story. You believe it should be a movie, too. >> No, no, limited series. Limited series. >> A limited part series, yes.

>> A limited part series. We can't wait for. it. >> [laughter]. >> We can't wait for. >> Yes, thank you so much. >> much. Thanks, Philip. Thank you. >> much, Philip. >> Yeah, so this is what I I so deeply. appreciate you is that you have taken. this. power of storytelling. and helped us to see ourselves in ways. that reflect back to us. our. our shames and our inadequacies, but.

also our joys. Because in the end, we. feel her joy and her resolution to to be. more of herself. >> Thank you. >> And I think that's what watching all of. your work has done for us. >> Thank you. I think I I I like to think I. do portrait work. And when you really do. a portrait, you need to see the whole. person. And I think. I know I've been endeavoring to paint. the fullest humanity of our of of us. I. feel like. if if America is our home, right? And we.

are children in this home. Our image has been so distorted, if at. all, on the wall. So, imagine living in. a home and all the pictures on the wall. mostly of white and male or. certainly not you. And. when you when your picture is up there, it's it's blurred, distorted. So, for. me, my my drive is to try to paint the. fullness of us, because we deserve our. full humanity. We we deserve our light.

and our dark and for us to figure out. how to evolve on our own. and and and in the safety of others. By first being in the safety of. ourselves. And so, then it brings and a. lot of these things are imparted on us. and most of us spend a lot of our life. avoiding it and then, you know, like. Philip, like Mary and just at 40, just. at whatever age, start to open up. Imagine if we can start to think about. that at a younger age or prevent it. number one, but maybe if we start to.

think about the repair that has to. happen earlier, how much more life and. life force that's in us that we can. actually get to the purpose of why we're. here in the first place. And so, the. portrait work is to see fully because. once seen, I have a thesis that if we're. seen and we come out of the womb, "Mommy, Daddy, see me." And it goes to. it goes to schools, it goes to coaches, it goes to theater and plays and media, and you're never seen, then you never. have to show up. So, if I And this.

compliment you gave me, Oprah, I thank. you because. if people can be seen, then they're then. you're aware that you're seen, then why. am I here is the next question. What am. I here for? What am I supposed to do? And God will whisper, >> I thank you for showing us. our stories through your words. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Mara Brock Akil, it's her. first novel. >> [laughter]. >> It's called The Revelation of Dion. Daphne, and it's available now wherever.

you want to buy your books. Tondo, Maryann, and Philip, thanks for reading. with us and for your your questions. And. thank you, dear listeners, for hanging. out with us. See you next time. Go well. As my daughter girl Tondo puts it, The. Revelation of Dion Daphne [music] is a. page-turner. You'll want to talk about. it with your friends this summer. You. can buy it right now. Just scan the QR. [music] code on your screen. Enjoy. Our listeners tell us that the podcast. is resonating with you and is serving as. a bright spot in your day. That means. [music] a lot to me. So, here's the.

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