Is Stoicism the Secret to a Good Life?

People think stoic means has no. emotions. I sort of define stoicism as. this idea that we don't control what. happens, but we control how we respond. to what happens. >> Do you think that the stoicism's. principles of ancient wisdom are. relevant [music] for our times right. now? >> The popularity of stoicism is a reaction. against [music] what's clearly not. working for us and clearly making us. miserable. We're all obviously just. overstimulated and stressed and. overwhelmed and trying to make sense of.

the world. There's nothing so bad that. you can't learn something from it. It's. in those moments that I think we're. really being [music] tested. We have an. opportunity to learn what we're made of. >> I love that. Nothing is wasted. [music]. >> Unless we waste it. >> Unless you waste it. Hello and thank you for joining me on. the Oprah podcast. My book club. selection this past April was Go Gentle. by novelist Maria Semple. And in the.

story that she tells, the lead character. practices and teaches stoicism. But before I read Go Gentle, the novel, I think I had a vague idea of what. stoicism was. I thought it meant grin. and bear it, stuff your feelings, tough. it out. But the more her character spoke. of stoic principles in the novel, the. more interested I became. And then I. started ordering books about stoicism.

So I wasn't just reading the novel, I. was reading books about what the. character in the novel was talking. about. And then I hear this ancient. philosophy is having a big comeback, even among younger people. So I invited. the man who has written 15 books on. stoicism, including The Daily Stoic and. really one of the most popular, The. Obstacle Is the Way, which has sold. millions of copies and has been. published in 40 different languages. He.

is a podcaster, he is an author, and one. of the leading voices behind the modern. stoicism movement. Welcome to my front. porch, Ryan Holiday. >> Thank you so much for having me. This is. a total honor. >> So, tell us how that became an interest. for you. >> Yeah, I don't think when people think of. ancient philosophy, they think, "Oh, this will help me with modern problems.". And so, I had an experience, I guess, that people have been having for. thousands of years, which is you pick up. Marcus Aurelius or Seneca, Epictetus,

and you go, "Wait, this can't possibly be from 2,000. years ago.". >> Those are all famous stoics you just. named. >> yeah. I mean, there's a passage in. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations that I. remember reading as a college student. where the most powerful man in the world. is talking about not wanting to get out. of bed in the morning because it's nice. and warm under the covers. And in that second, all these centuries, you know, disappear, these different. cultures, his totally, you know, surreal circumstances disappear, and you.

realize like human beings have been. struggling with the same things for all. time. >> Yes. >> And that actually that's what philosophy. is about. It's philosophy isn't riddles. and, you know, names you can't. pronounce. Philosophy is designed to. help you live a good life, to. fulfill your potential, to to get up and. get after it, and to deal with the ups. and downs of what they would say fortune. could throw at you. >> So, 15 books you've written about this. What is stoicism, and how do you explain. it? >> Well, I think the stereotype you you. mentioned is is a good place to start.

People think stoic means has no. emotions, invulnerable. That's what we. would call lowercase stoic. That's what. the word means in English, just like. epicurean means loves food, but is. actually a also a 2,500-year-old ancient. philosophy. And so, I I sort of define stoicism as. this idea that we don't control what. happens, but we control how we respond. to what happens. And the Stoics believed. that everything was an opportunity to. practice virtue. And those four virtues.

for the Stoics were courage, temperance or self-discipline, justice, and wisdom. And so the idea is that life. can throw a lot at you, but it can't. prevent you from acting with virtue. That's something you could do in prison, you could also do as the emperor of. Rome. And so so Stoicism then is is this. sort of toolkit for dealing with a world. where the vast majority. >> a religion. I don't think so. >> Yeah. It's a It's a It's a way of living, and.

there have been. the the Stoics lived in in a world of. the gods, and there have been Stoics. since, you know, God. It's I think perfectly compatible with a. variety of different faiths. But but. it's it's mostly a a way of living, a. set of ideas. >> Now, when I read Obstacle Is the Way, I was struck by how simple the idea is, and yet how radical it also becomes when. you actually try to live it. That the.

very thing, y'all, blocking your path. might actually be the path. So Marcus. Aurelius, emperor of Rome around the. year 170, wrote, "What stands in the way. becomes the way.". >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and I had not come across that as. a philosophy or. How does what's standing in the way. become the way, Ryan? >> I think what he's specifically talking. about makes it very clear. So the. obstacle he's referring to, cuz he's.

writing in Meditations, which is just. his private thoughts. So he's not saying. it to us, he's saying it to himself. Yeah. And he's talking about difficult and. annoying people. He's saying that. difficult and annoying people can get in. our way, they can cause problems for us, right? Our opponents, our competitors, anyone can cause problems for us, but. they can't prevent us from moving. forward cuz they're actually presenting. us a new way to move forward, whether. it's patience, whether it's forgiveness, whether it's creativity or perseverance.

So, for the Stoics, when they say the. obstacle is the way, look, sometimes you. can transform what you're dealing with. into some huge opportunity to to move. forward in a professional capacity. Yeah. But always in a personal capacity, we're being challenged and tested. We're. given an opportunity to practice some. kind of excellence, some some reach for. us that maybe we wouldn't have done. under ordinary circumstances, but this. circumstance we're in gives us the. chance to do that. That's what he's what.

he means. >> So, you write about persistent, directed. action, and you say action is a solution. and cure to our predicaments. How do. people take action. when. they're stuck? When they they don't know. what to do. Most people don't take. action. because they're stuck. >> One of the Stoic philosophers, Seneca, he said that the one thing all fools. have in common is that they're always. getting ready to start. So, we say we're going to do it later.

We say we're going to do it tomorrow. We. say we're going to do it when things go. back to normal. >> All fools have this in common. I was. thinking, okay, I'm in that fool. category. I'm getting ready. >> Me, too. >> I'm getting ready. >> Yeah, we're we're we're working. ourselves up to it. >> Yeah. >> And really, we we got to get started. We. got to What's the smallest thing? What's. the next right thing that we can do? >> Yeah. >> One of my favorite writing rules is um. just a couple crappy pages a day. >> Yeah. >> You know, just get started. Uh don't. overthink it. Don't let perfection be a. form of paralysis. Yeah. But what can.

you do right now that at least makes a. small positive difference? >> Yeah, even so, even if you're tired, even if you're discouraged, you still. take action no matter what. >> Well, that's what discipline is, right? Doing it when you don't want to do it or. you don't have to do it or you have a. good excuse to not do it. >> Yeah. Well, one of the one of the. sentences the first sentences that stood. out for me is it doesn't matter what. happens to us. It can be for the best. if we use it to be better for ourselves.

and others. >> Yeah. >> I think that's true. >> Mhm. >> Sounds crazy, but also really. challenging to apply. And in order to. make it real, you organize the book. around the three principles, perception, action, and will. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> That's how the Stoics try to approach. every situation they're in. First, it. how do we think about this? What's the. story I'm telling myself about it? What's my view on it? The Stoics remind themselves that, you. know, it's not things that are the. problem. It's our opinion about those. things, right? How we the story we tell. ourselves about it, you know, this was.

unfair, this was cruel, I was. humiliated. These are all subjective. interpretations of an objective event. So, first, how do how do we see this? That's really, really essential. >> interesting because since reading so. many of your books and other people's. books about stoicism, I now ask people I. used to say, "Oh, say tell tell me what. happened." I now I I've now caught. myself saying, "What's the story you're. telling yourself about this?". >> Do you know what my therapist said to me.

once? I I said, you know, um I I it gave. some interpretation of an event and she. corrected me and she said, "No, no, no. What you make up about this is. >> Yes. >> Right? It is. And then what I make up. about it is. my interpretation of it. >> That's right. So, what is the story you. have made up about what is actually. happening? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so, stoicism is training to be able. to see things as objectively as. dispassionately as possible. Not in the. sway of our initial impression or our.

emotions or our bias or whatever pattern. we have followed our whole life. >> Okay. Could you give me an example using. perception? >> Yeah, um. Okay, first and foremost, uh something. happens and then we say, "This is bad.". Yeah. Or. uh "This is unrecoverable from uh. you know, uh my reputation has been. damaged." We that interpretation. And. stepping back and going, "No, no, no, no." Um somebody else might see this. totally different. Or had I not known.

that this happened, had had someone said. that rude remark to you, and you just. didn't hear it, or your phone deleted. the email, >> Mhm. >> would your life be ruined? No, it's just. that you know about it, and then you. have an opinion about it that is the. problem. So, trying to step back and see. the thing first and foremost. objectively, and then I think what we. can get better at is going, "Hey, if I. have the power to tell myself a negative. story about this, >> Mhm. >> I also have the power to tell myself a. positive story about this." And that's. where when we say the obstacle is the. way, what we mean is, "Hey, this is a.

chance for me to do something that I. couldn't do under ordinary. circumstances.". >> do we, Ryan, train ourselves to see. clearly when emotions are running high? How do you So, in every situation, you. first. do the assessment. >> Yeah. >> And you sort of step back and you you. don't shut down your emotions, or do or. do you shut down your emotions? >> I don't think you shut them down. I I. think the stereotype.

>> your emotion. >> [laughter]. >> What do you do? >> Having the emotion to me is different. than acting on the emotion. >> Aha. >> Uh Lincoln famously would get upset as. all leaders do. >> Mhm. >> And he would write these letters, but. then he would put the letters in a. drawer and not send them. >> Mhm. >> Right? You can be angry. You don't have. to hit send because you can take a. minute to think about it. So, to me, Stoicism is that that reflection, that. pause after the initial impression. The. Stoics are talking about taking every. interpretation, every view, every. instinct, every impulse, and putting it.

to the test. Going, "Hey, how am I going. to feel about this later? Am I Am I sure. I'm not going to regret this? Is this. going to Is this actually making it. better or worse?". >> So, the Stoic philosophy is not to act. not to react emotionally. It's to take a. moment, take the whole thing in, and see. try to look at it from the perspective. of what is actually happening here and. not just the story I'm telling myself. about what's happening here. >> Yeah, it's that pause between stimulus.

and the thing you do. >> [music]. >> Everything I do begins with intention. >> You become exactly what you believe is. possible. >> Especially the Oprah podcast. >> You're doing good, Abe. >> I believe when people share their. personal journeys with authenticity, >> Never thought of it like that. >> I love that you've never thought of it. that way before. >> And with intention, something [music]. beautiful happens. We recognize pieces. of our own lives in theirs. >> We realize that actually helps, right?

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all because. life happens in ways. we can't [music] always predict. And. with the right support. we keep driving forward. [music]. And that, dear listener, is everything. >> Okay, so is the obstacle always meant to. be overcome when the obstacle is the. way, or is it meant just to be. understood? I found that you know, when.

something goes wrong or is challenging, if I can ask the question, "What is this. here to teach me?" "What is this here to. teach me?" It eases the way and clears. the path for moving forward. So, are we. supposed to always move the obstacle out. of the way, or are we just supposed to. understand why it's there? >> I think it's a it's all of the above. I. mean, look, sometimes you face a problem. or an obstacle and and what what's being. demanded of you is persistence, perseverance, determination. You got to. knock this thing out of the way with. sheer force. That's what the opportunity.

is, and you're going to get stronger, just like lifting weights, for having. had to wrestle with this thing. Epictetus, one of the Stoic he says, you. know, uh pretend you've been uh you're. an Olympic athlete and you've been. paired with a strong sparring partner. Like, you're wrestling with this and. you're both getting better because it's. hard. So, sometimes it's like that, but. you're right, sometimes it's actually. not a surmountable obstacle. Sometimes. it's just an obstacle there that's. there to teach you about yourself, to. teach you about the world.

>> Is everything there to teach us. something? >> I think there is no there's nothing so. bad that you can't learn something from. it. I think that's that is the ultimate. way that we turn the obstacle into an. opportunity as a as a learning. experience. If not in our own lives, how. can if we've screwed up horribly bad. badly, how do we at least uh codify what. we've learned so our children can. benefit from it or people we know can. benefit from it? >> I'm in so interested in this principle. of living your life from the point of.

view of understanding what you can. control and what you can't control. I'm. not a stoic, but I think I have. understood that for a long time. We have. a few practicing stoics zooming in with. us. Dr. Dan Durkes is an emergency room. physician from Los Angeles. Welcome, doctor. >> Hi folks, thanks for having me. >> How do you use these tenets of stoicism. in the ER? >> Uh absolutely. I mean. I really came to stoicism through. medicine.

>> Wow. >> When [clears throat] you work in. medicine, you are exposed to this really. raw, very vulnerable part of humanity, right? You're with people as they. suffer, you're with them as they. survive, and sometimes you're with them. as they die. And there are days when you. and your team, you give. you just give everything you possibly. have and it's still not enough. >> Mhm. >> And somebody dies. And you go home from. that and you realize your limitations, how small you are, that there are these. obstacles that there is no way around. And what do you do with that, right? So.

you have to find some method of. a how and a why to come back tomorrow. and to try harder and to do better. And. so as I was wrestling with that, I. really found the stoic principles to be. incredibly helpful about making meaning. out of that, right? So this idea of. operate where you have control or play. the hand of cards you're dealt, you. know, to find a way to help that lean. into as opposed to away from that raw, messy humanity. So for me, practicing.

stoicism became just a a really critical. part of how I practice and teach. emergency medicine. So much so that when. I wrote my book, The Emergency Mind, which is like lessons from an ER doctor. on how to perform under pressure, I. tried to think about this core concept. of what is stoicism for emergencies and. then build outwards from there. So, I I. think it's a really intimately tied to. crisis, whether you're the one going. through it or the one trying to solve. it. >> Wow. I hear you have a question for. Ryan. >> I I do, and I'm very thankful to get the.

chance to ask it. I actually read The. Obstacle Is the Way in between shifts. when I was coming up, and made a big. difference for me. So, thank you for. that. >> amazing. >> Uh one of the things I really love about. stoicism is that it's an and instead of. an or, right? So, you can be, as you. said, religious and very deeply. religious and a stoic, or you can be not. religious at all and be a stoic. Uh you. can be a teacher or an author or an ER. doctor or anything and be a stoic, a. Republican and a stoic, a Democrat and a. stoic. And.

our culture these days doesn't really do. and, right? We do a lot of or. We really. want to divide people into you are this. or you are that. And I think stoicism. has this real ability to to unite people. around this and concept. So, my question is, what do you do with. that? How do you use stoicism to bring. people to the understanding that we. really can be an and instead of an or? >> I think even with the idea of like what. a philosopher is, right? People tend to. think of a philosopher as someone who. works at a university and discourses.

about philosophy, as opposed to he's a. philosopher in the emergency room. Right? Philosophy is supposed to help. you. do what you do and do it better, do it. with virtue, do it with courage and. discipline and justice. >> a philosopher in the emergency room. I. can see that. >> It's It's something you you put into. practice that helps you with what you. do. And And I think if we can understand. that we're all human beings dealing with. that same fundamental limitation. Marcus. Aurelius is the most powerful man in the. world. Epictetus is a slave in the Roman.

Empire. They're One is extremely. powerful, one is extremely powerless. But they're equalized by the fact that. the vast majority of life is not in. their control. And so, in that, we all. have this thing in common. We're all. trying to respond well to the hand we've. been dealt in life. That to me is where. we come together and where stoicism is. something that you could talk about with. a professional athlete or an emergency. room doctor or a a parent with a toddler. that's just trying to get through the. sleepless nights.

>> And how do you use it on a daily basis? >> Uh. it's it's really hard to separate it out. from emergency medicine because it's. really just so ingrained. >> Mhm. >> Right? Seneca has this great quote I. love which is endeavor not to trip over. something behind you. Right? So, you. always want to keep moving forward and. and trying to figure out what comes next. and I think that's equally applicable if. you, you know, you miss an IV you're. placing and you have to go place the. next one or on a much broader scale you. have something just truly horrible. happen. That next family needs you to.

show up for them with the same. compassion and love and care and and. ability as you had for the case that. just went terribly wrong. Right? So, you. have to sort of endeavor not to trip. over that and to to keep moving forward. with it. >> Wow, Dr. Dan is a philosopher in the. emergency room. Dr. Dworkis, that's. wonderful. Wonderful talking to you. Thank you. Thank you for your insights. Thank you. Thank you. I love this quote. This is one of my all-time favorite. quotes, okay?

>> Life will cut you open like a knife. When that happens, at that exposing. moment, the world gets a glimpse of. what's truly inside you. So, what will be revealed when you're. sliced open by tension. or pressure? Iron or air or. And you go on to say that the will is. the critical third discipline. It is the. one thing we control completely, always.

Can you speak more more this? >> Yeah, well, a lot of the obstacles we. face are just the sort of pedestrian. problems of of life, right? Traffic, travel delays, you know, you wake up sick, you got a. problem at work. And then there are. those sort of deeper, more profound. problems, obstacles. A cancer diagnosis, a loss of a loved one, an accident, bankruptcy, a theft, right? The real. stuff. And it it's in those moments that. I think we're really being tested, and.

we we have an opportunity. to learn what we're made of. The The. Stoics talked about how they they sort. of pitied people who haven't been. knocked around by life, cuz they don't. know what they're capable of. >> That's right. >> And if you say to yourself, "Hey, this. is me learning something essential about. myself. This is a test. Will I rise to. meet it. or not?". >> You write on page 155, "Love everything. that happens. Amor Fati.". >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Acceptance is tough, right? Just accept. >> Explain this principle, cuz that is. tough. >> Well, acceptance is sort of the the. first level of it, right? Uh the Stoics. called this the art of acquiescence. Understanding a lot of things are not in. your control, and you're going to have. to come to terms with them. >> Reminds me of a quote from Eckhart Tolle. in A New Earth, where he says, "Life. will give you. exactly. what you need for the evolution of your. consciousness. And how do you know it's. what you need? It's because what you're. experiencing. >> Yeah.

>> in this moment. This is the same thing, right? So, you might as well just accept. it. >> Yeah. And then beyond acceptance is when. you embrace it, and you decide, "Hey, this isn't something I have to go. through. It's something I get to go. through. This is a a transformational, transcendent experience for me.". >> Well, I I mean, this all sounds really. good, very philosophical, like, but. really hard when it is your life, and. you're going through the stuff. >> Yes, of course. >> Yeah. >> And and it was hard for the Stoics, too.

It's easy to write it down. It's It's. easy for me. It was easy for Marcus. Aurelius. But But the putting it into practice, the struggling with it day-to-day, is. the thing. There aren't. >> Your husband just left you, you lost a. job, you. have a cancer diagnosis, all these. things. But this is when the principles. really come into play. >> And I think understanding that it's. work. It's not, "Oh, I heard this idea. once. I saw this quote, so now I get it, and now this thing isn't hard for me.". >> Yes. >> It's the reminder of it day-to-day. If.

we understand what Meditations was for. the most powerful man in the world, it's. him reminding himself over and over. again. >> powerful, you mean Marcus Aurelius, yes. >> Yes. It It's. It's this totally unique historical. document. Uh Marcus Aurelius'. Meditations, one of the the great texts. great gifts of of civilization that that. this survives. But he says a lot of the same things. over and over again, because it's not. for you and me. It was for him. He's. reminding himself. >> to himself. >> Yes, and he's he's doing it during a.

plague. >> no idea we were going to be talking. about it on my porch. >> He might be mortified. >> He might be mortified. >> Yeah. >> He's He's doing it through a plague, through floods, through wars, through. the loss of of multiple He He attends. multiple funerals for his children. It. is a It is a deeply and profoundly. painful life that he gets through. And. he is having to work through it, as we. are all having to work through it. >> all of these writings. that later become of what we're now.

discussing. >> Yeah, well, it's It's the journal, in. the same way that I sit down in the. morning and I go, "Hey, you didn't need. to lose your temper like that yesterday. Don't you regret it? Why did you do. that? You know better than this." It's. that sort of self-talk that is trying to. get you back on track. So it's one thing. to know it, it's another thing to know. it in the moment, and it's a third thing. to get back to it when you've done the. wrong thing. >> L is a business owner in California. Hi. L.

>> Hi Oprah. Hi Ryan. >> Hi and you're practicing stoicism. Tell. us about that. >> So I'm an entrepreneur and I founded. and was CEO of a baby carrier company. called Solly Baby for over a decade. Now. I do other things in business and the. host of a podcast called Down the Well. with L for moms and my my husband and I. invest in family-owned businesses. But. back in the early days of Solly Baby, I. rode all the emotional highs and lows of. the business and the lows were not fun,

but the highs. actually drove and fueled a lot of my. ambition if I'm being honest. So over. time that roller coaster was really. exhausting and I wanted off. So enter stoicism. I become a little bit. of a stoic. >> Tell tell us how. Tell us what happened. >> Yeah, I um stopped trying to control. everything. I looked at the experiences. that I was having as for me and released.

kind of the outcomes. I let my ego die. in a lot of ways, which you know, the. the success of. ironically like made me much more. successful and a much better leader, much better CEO, much better mom. Um and I and I got that kind of internal. steadiness. >> So what is it you actually practice. every day as it like do you read the. daily stoic. by Ryan Holiday? Do you.

Do you Do you Do you meditate? What how. What do you actually do? >> I mean some of that and also I have. actually built it into my religious. practice as well. So like I see it all. over the Bible. I see it everywhere. I. think that these are really eternal. like, you know, lifelong principles that. are. really rooted in and. everything. So, uh in terms of like a. daily practice, I would say, I think. Ryan just had mentioned this of really.

creating that space from um when. something happens to your reaction. uh to that thing. I I think that's as. basic as that is giving giving yourself. some some space there. um to respond. >> a phone call you don't like, an email. that is upsetting, uh uh somebody saying something that is. annoying, uh disturbing to you, and you. do what immediately? >> Has nothing to do with me. Has nothing.

to do with me. >> Even if when it's got your name on the. email. >> Right? I mean, I I've I've definitely had my name on. some things. Yeah. For some unhappy employees and customers. and and kids and all the things. But, uh. but yeah, it is a practice. Now, I would. never say that I have done it perfectly. or I'm, you know, some I don't know what. a perfect stoic would even would even. look like. >> is that you stop, you read the thing,

you take it in, you don't react, you. then do what? You. You say, "What is this really about?" Or. you say, >> Yeah. I mean, you get back into the. higher part of your brain um instead of. the survival brain that's saying, "How I. >> to defend myself." Yeah. >> Exactly. Of of how can I align this with. my highest self? With my most virtuous. self? With the person who I want to be. that I'm not yet.

>> Do you have a question for Ryan? >> I do. So, when I got off that roller. coaster, definitely helped with the. unnecessary suffering, creating that. kind of internal steadiness. But, it on the flip side, I would say it. has flattened just a little bit of that. that like intensity and drive and. motivation that that used to drive me. and and I would say like I I wouldn't. trade it back, but I'm wondering is that. a necessary trade-off?

Or you know, can I remain grounded and. feel. deeply driven still or do you have to. give some of that up is some of that. ego? >> I do think we're trying to trade. take a little bit off the the top so we. don't get so low because the lows are. inevitable and I think it often in. business and in life probably more. common. The the founder of Stoicism his. name is Zeno. He's a a merchant in the. Mediterranean and he suffers a. shipwreck. He loses everything. And as. he washes up in Athens, that's where. he's introduced to philosophy and he.

would he would joke that he made a great. fortune when he suffered a shipwreck cuz. it sent him down a different path. So, we don't always know where this is going. to take us. That's one of the. humiliations of of not saying this is. the worst thing that ever happened to to. us cuz we don't know. What I try to think about is instead of. wanting my highs to be attached to. achievements which may or may not come. or recognition which may or may not. come, I want to attach the highs from I. just had an amazing day getting to do. what I love. I just did my absolute.

best. I got better today. I did. something that I wasn't capable before. of before. And so, I want to take the. wins, the excitement, the achievements. in the things that are up to me as. opposed to to waiting for somebody else. to give it to me and then feeling good, but then also feeling nervous cuz they. can take it away or I can do everything. right and not get it. And so, to me that. if we can switch a little bit towards. identifying the highs with things that.

are up to us, not. did you get the award? Did you get the. promotion? Did the deal come through? But instead on the parts of it that are. up to you, that's where the Stoics are. going to feel better and and to you. know, celebrate is is is that that you. did what you were capable of doing. That's the win. >> I just wanted to say thank you. Thank. you. Thank you for being so open and. sharing that. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> We live in a culture of instant. everything as you know and everybody. knows. Social media, constant.

everything, cycles of cancellation, everybody's outraged, everything. Do you. think that the. Stoicism's principles of ancient wisdom. are relevant for our times right now? >> Yeah, I think in many ways the. popularity of Stoicism is a reaction. against what's clearly not working for. us and clearly making us miserable. We're slaves to the algorithm, slaves to. desire, slaves to to all these things.

that we we know although they can be. rewarding in the moment, they're they're. ultimately very draining and and empty. So, I think Stoicism has has been. popular for 2,500 years, but it tends to. be resurgent in moments. where things feel like they're not. working. >> Mhm. That's why the interest by so many. younger people. >> Nikki, you've been interested for a. while. Nikki's a mom of a tween. daughter. Hello. I hear you're always thinking about.

Stoicism. Why? >> I think it started in deeply in 2020. during the pandemic when nothing made. sense to to Ryan's point. >> Yeah. >> And I had to figure out, you know, between a move from Oakland, California. to Orlando, Florida. >> Mhm. >> You know, an incredible sort of shift. that I had to make and I had to make. that mental and internal shift as well. I also was dealing with a health crisis, a breast cancer scare, and I knew that I. had to make sure that I was anchored. I.

had to make sure that even though I. couldn't control what was happening. around me, I could control how I was. responding to what was going on and. um um. you know, I I think I've always been a. stoic in that way or had a stoic sort of. leaning because I always loved. you know, the incompre- incomparable uh. Maya Angelou. >> Mhm. >> And I felt like she was an absolute. perfect example of a stoic mindset. Um I. remember her quote about you can be.

changed by what's happening to you, but. you don't have to be reduced by it. And. that was my goal in really leaning into. stoicism is not being reduced by what I. was going through. >> That's wonderful. Do you have a question. for Ryan? >> And do you have a question? As I I am a. mother, I have a tween and um. living in Florida, living in this. climate that we all are all in, where. regardless of where you are in the. world, how do we raise our children, Ryan, to have a stoic sort of outlook,

but not be disconnected or detached from. their own emotions and certainly not. from um injustice as well. >> I I think about this with my kids. It's. it's one thing to talk about the stuff, but then what do they see me doing? How. do they see me losing my cool? They're throwing a tantrum and then I'm. throwing a tantrum in response to their. tantrum and they're learning that this. is what you do when you're upset or when. you're overwhelmed or you can't express. yourself well. And so I think obviously.

first and foremost it comes down to. modeling. But I think we want to. we we want to teach. via stories. What are the stories uh. from history, from life, from literature. that embody these ideas? And then what. are the history What are the stories. from our own life that we can go, "Hey, I've been where you've been and this is. what I did and this is why I wish I'd. done it differently." Uh so I think we. we learn from stories. But. >> Yeah. >> the idea of justice is is a critical.

stoic virtue. You know, stoicism we're. talking here about resiliency. We're. talking about not being so triggered, not being so upset. I think the reason. we're talking about that is so we can be. of use to society, right? The the stoic. virtue of justice, you can't pick the. other three and then not do that one. It's It's the most essential of the. virtues. It's the virtue that all the. others have to be pointed towards. And. so, you know, over and over again, uh the stoics are talking about our. obligations to the common good, to not.

just our children, but to to all. children, to the future itself. And so, there is this. critical ethical core to stoicism that. while might be popular with athletes and. special forces operators and CEOs, >> what made this book so popular that. athletes started using it? >> It It was not the market I expected, >> Yes. >> but it's been a It's been interesting. >> That athletes. >> Yeah, athletes, police officers, firefighters, astronauts, fighter. pilots, people in high-stakes,

high-pressure. environments, obviously are drawn to. stoicism, but so are single parents, so are. you know, kids, so are teenagers. We're all obviously just overstimulated. and stressed and overwhelmed and trying. to make sense of the world. So, I think. obviously that there's going to be your. sort of early adopters, but but. ultimately this is a thing that works. for everyone. >> that it's helped you live a more calmer. life, Nikki?

>> I think so. You know, I think having. that internal balance, having that. internal rudder, is what it is. So, even. if a situation is out of my control, which most things are, >> [laughter]. >> Yes. >> very little is in my control. Um I still. know that I have myself. I have me, right? And that is, you know, another. quote, right? You are your best thing. Right? I know that all said done, I have. to have me and take care of me before I. can do anything else. >> Well, thank you for joining us. Thank. you for that. And proud of you raising.

It's [clears throat] not easy raising. anybody and certainly doing it in this. climate, all the things. >> Thank you. >> Amen. If Marcus Aurelius and Seneca and all. those guys were alive right now, what do. you think they'd say about our. relationship to distraction and. validation and all that? >> I think they would be horrified. Uh this. is not This is no way to live. >> Nobody would believe it. >> Yeah. >> We probably get more information in an.

hour than the emperor of Rome would get. in a month. Just the the sheer volume. and noise. >> like in a year. >> It's It's It's not It's not human what. we are subjecting ourselves to. >> Yeah, it's too much. It's too much. So, I've been collecting inspirational. quotes for years. I remember 15 going. home and. I. li- literally. coming from an assembly and putting. quotes on the walls after hearing. someone speak. Um but a lot of people. hear the phrase, but then it's hard to.

actually put into practice. If there was. one daily Stoic habit. from this book that you believe could. truly change someone's life if they. commit to it, what would that be? >> Wow. Epictetus says, "It's not things that. upset us, it's our opinion about. things.". >> Oh. >> And when you realize that. you can decide what this is going to.

mean for you. You can decide whether. this is something that knocks you. backwards or this is something that you. use to spring forward. That that is what. is up to you. >> Yeah. >> You know, they they say it doesn't. matter what you bear, it matters how you. bear it. >> You say in the very beginning of the. book that, you know, you're celebrating. the 10th anniversary of this book, but. the past 10 years have put a lot of. obstacles in your way. So, was your. practice of stoicism put to the test? >> Uh always being put to the test. I mean,

look, show me any 10-year period in. history that didn't put. people to the test. So, we talk about. how this is unprecedented, this never. happened before. It's very precedented. It's very happened before. This is what. This is what history is. We are living. through a historical moment, and history. only looks quaint and. certain in retrospect. It's always touch. and go. It's always scary. It's always. alarming. And so, yeah, I mean, I had.

two young kids. I got married. I built a. business. I lost a business. I I You're. always going through stuff. It's never. going the way that you want it to go. But then when I look back on that. 10-year period, I see how each one of. those moments was formative into making. me where I am now. And I sometimes wish. and and this is I think a very. particular part of the stoic practice to. go, "If I'm going to feel better about. this later, why am I torturing myself about it now?". >> Yeah. >> Why can't I borrow that.

take it on it take it uh on advance? Why. don't I give myself the perspective of. some distance and space. now instead of. feeling transformed by it a decade from. now? >> Yeah. You learn to step into the space. that allows you to have the space from. it. Yeah. And recognizing it doesn't. matter what happens to us, it could be. for the best if we use it to be better. for ourselves and others. One of the. things I really appreciated about this. book is that it does not promise an.

easier life cuz you couldn't, but it. does, I think, promise a stronger sense. of self, a way of meeting life as it is. and not as we would necessarily wish it. to be. >> Yeah, do you want to pray for things to. go a certain way or do you want to pray. for the strength to be able to handle. them however they go? Epictetus was. approached by one of his students, and. the student said, "You know, tell me. what to do. Tell me what to do." He. said, "That's the wrong question. You. should be asking me to help make you.

adaptable to circumstances, to be able to meet whatever the future. brings. And if we understand that we. don't get a say in how uh the future is. going to go. We only get a say in who. we're going to be, whatever that is, then we're. we have a much better prescription for. resiliency there than needing to be so. strong that we can we can make things be. a certain way or be so lucky that they. go a certain way. We want to be.

weather for We want to be ready for. whatever the weather is. >> I love that. Ryan, thank you so much for. reminding us that nothing is wasted. Nothing is wasted. That's what I say all. the time. >> Unless we waste it. >> Unless you waste it. But not your pain's. not wasted. Your setbacks aren't wasted. Not even your so-called failures are. wasted if you're willing to meet them. with courage and clarity. Maya Angelou, she was just mentioning used to always. say to me. uh that one of the Stoics used to say,

"Courage is the most important of the. virtues because you can't practice. anything else without it.". >> It's exactly right. >> Yeah. Yeah. Ryan Stoic Virtues box set. is available everywhere. There's a whole. set. If this conversation has interested. you, uh his bestsellers, The Obstacle Is the. Way, The Daily Stoic, are available. wherever books are sold. And then. there's a whole set. Thank you so much. to Dan and Ellen Nicki for zooming in, and to all of you for joining us. We'll. see you next time. Go well.

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