How to Work with Difficult People (Without Losing Yourself)

This episode of the Oprah podcast is. presented by our partner Geico. Statistics say chances are very very. very high that there is somebody at work. who is driving you crazy. You're going. to spend 90,000 hours of your life at. work. And what determines if somebody. loves or enjoys their job is not often. the job description. It's often the. people that they have to work with. Some. people are certified crazy and you. cannot work with everybody. So in your.

research, one of the things you found, I. heard was that nearly half of Americans. quit their jobs really because of their. boss. And you suggest what you call an. expectations detox. I love this so much. because I've done this many times in my. life. This is so key. Like stop acting. so shocked when people have a bad. attitude or don't have the same. preferences as you. >> That right there, Ryan, that's going to. help a lot of people. Hi everybody and welcome to the Oprah.

podcast and I thank you for joining us. here. I'm I'm really so excited for you. to meet my guest today because if you're. listening or watching us and you are a. working person, statistics say that the. chances are very very very very high. like 80% high that there is somebody at. work who is driving you crazy. And I I. know just hearing me say that that. person just popped in your head right. now. And maybe they have a toxic. personality or they take credit for your.

ideas or they're always just either. snarky, condescending or just annoying. or you found out that they talk stuff. about you behind your back or they don't. pull their own weight. It is frustrating. and it is so annoying. And I know. because I have dealt with all kinds of. working relationships from Fortune 100. boardrooms to professional locker rooms. Ryan Leak is a sought-after speaker and.

a best-selling author and his latest. book, How to Work with Complicated. People. Strategies, not just talking. about it, but strategies for effective. collaboration with nearly anyone. offers. it offers a better way to this is going. to help you start setting boundaries. like actually give you the words to set. boundaries to communicate and also to. detox at work cuz a lot of people just. take it all home right and even if you. think you're surrounded by idiots this.

book this this book will work work for. you welcome to the podcast. >> Oprah it is an absolute pleasure to be. here. >> what was going on in your own life that. you knew you had to write this. >> oh well I I felt bad for my team that. has to work with me. >> and you know traveling and speaking and. working with companies all around the. world and just having a phone and being. on social media I noticed a couple of. things were happening in culture that I. thought we needed some help with. Number.

one, uh, I started to notice that we. were given, especially over the last. decade, I would say, more polarizing. subjects than ever before without the. requisite emotional tools to actually. have discussions around these subjects. And so you started to see, especially. online, subjects moving from us having a. disagreement about something and it. started to move into disrespect. And so. you saw this in civility, >> disrespect, disregard, name. Yeah. just. it turned into turns into a thing.

>> 100%. I mean I think we've all had that. moment where we were just watching it. and going it's getting worse and so I. think I've worked with a company they. have this framework where they say hey. this is how we have highstakes. conversations we have things that we. will die for we have things that we will. defend and we have things that we will. discuss. Well I started to see that a. lot of the subjects that we were given. it was all hills to die on. Yes. every. comment section. It's like I got to have. a take on this particular subject. It's.

like I don't think you have to have a. take on every single subject. And so I. wrote this book to say, hey, how can we. get off the hill. >> and quit trying to die on the hill and. how can we have a cup of coffee and and. have a discussion? So that that was the. first thing that was going on. And the. second thing is what we've discovered in. research is that well, you're going to. spend 90,000 hours of your life at work. 90,000 hours of your life is going to be. at work. And what determines if somebody. loves or enjoys their job is not often.

the job description. It's often the. people that they have to work with. So. we said, "Hey, if we could give a. playbook to people to do the people part. of their job, well then maybe they could. enjoy what is a significant portion of. the. >> Well, when I saw this title, how to work. with complicated people.". >> Yeah. >> Great title, by the way. >> Thank you. >> It's a New York Times bestseller. >> It is. >> And deserves to be. >> Uh cuz it's clearly striking a nerve. >> Yeah. And I know firsthand that nearly. all work-related problems are actually.

people problems. >> trying to be worked out at work. Is that. what you've also discovered? >> Absolutely. >> Yes. >> Yeah. You you see a lot of people who. are trying to uh navigate change, trying. to navigate AI, trying to navigate. technology changes all throughout all. kinds of industries. But at the end of. the day, they're people problems. And. oftentimes you're going to be sitting. across from somebody who thinks. differently than you, works differently. than you, is from a different generation.

than you. And we all have to have a. great plan for what we're going to do. when we're sitting across from. >> And I like the fact that you use Ryan. the word complicated. You could have. said an How to work with. How to work with jerks. >> Yeah. >> How to work with Okay. A lot of words. But anyway, so why did you choose the. word complicated? Well, it was a word. that came up a lot in our research. Whenever I would be sitting across from. somebody and say, "So, tell me about. this person that you're having a. challenge with." They would say, "Well, they're not they're not bad. They're.

well, they're complicated." And so, it. was some somebody that was had patterns. and had perspectives that just didn't. vibe well with theirs and they couldn't. find a word to use. And I said, "Is it. is it complicated?" Yeah, it's it is it. is very complicated because you know. it's I don't want to offend them but I. also want to be honest. The times have. changed. Precoid, postcoid, are we. working virtually? Are we working in. person? And so what we kept finding is. that it it kept being more and more.

complicated. >> Now this is the thing. You start the. book by saying when we're dealing with. difficult people, the first person you. need to look at is yourself. Even though. nobody wants to hear that cuz they're. like this isn't my problem. This is you. And you write, "We are all weird. We are. all odd, irritating, or baffling to. someone else.". >> Yeah. >> So I do people have a hard time with. this with this start with yourself that. do people have a hard time when you say, "Let let's first take a look at you.". >> Yeah. >> Why are you having this problem?

>> Yeah. Well, it's it's hard to look in. the mirror because when you think about. somebody that when if we start talking. about boundaries, if we start talking. about somebody that needs to be. challenged, if we start talking about. somebody that needs correction, like we. all have people in our life that we go, they shouldn't have even gotten this. job, they should never get a microphone, they need to get their act together. The. problem is none of us think we're the. person, >> right? >> We think it's always somebody else. So. by starting with yourself, you are. automatically on first base with working.

with complicated people. Because if I. start with myself and go, you know what, on the other side of me, I bet it's not. as easy and as ideal as I think it is. If I start with, well, maybe on the. other side of me, it's a little. complicated. Well, then I'm going to. have grace for your complexities. But if. I think I'm the hero of my own story. >> Yeah. But what if I know that I can be. challenging and I know that I can I can. be intimidating and I know all those. things. >> Yeah. >> But I just want to get the job done. >> Yeah.

>> And don't want to have to deal with your. complication. So what is the best. strategy when you're dealing with. somebody who doesn't understand that? >> Well, at some point you we all have we. all got different strategies for how. we're going to deal with that. >> You say most people use four strategies. to deal with a complicated person. What. are they and what is the one that works? So the first one you can do is avoid. them, right? Yeah. Except. >> you can't. >> You can't. I I found that complicated. people are unavoidable. >> Yes. >> Okay. As much as you try, you can do. everything in your power. >> You want to run into them. You have to. deal with them. It's they will find you.

Okay. >> Every single time. >> Okay. >> Second thing you can do is you can try. and change them. >> You cannot. >> Which good luck. But most people to do. that, you have to twist their arm. >> And nobody likes having their arm. twisted. So good luck trying to change. them. >> You may be able to change some behavior. >> You can inspire it. >> Yeah. You can inspire it. >> You can inspire it. But I mean, imagine. if if somebody walked up to you and. said, "Hey, I'm really looking forward. to changing you soon." You'd be like, "What? You're not changing me?" Like, it's it's nobody even really wants to be. changed, but they also want to try.

>> The fact that you you just mentioned. that reminds me of the year we every. year on the Oprah show, we always. considered ourselves the Oprah show, which ended 15 years ago. So, I'm not. trying to live in the past, but for 25. years I did the show and every year our. goal was to do a better job the next. year than we did before. I never. considered anybody else competition. We. were competing with ourselves. And one. year and we would have themes for every. year. And one year because people used. to come up to me and say, "Oh, I watched. this show. It changed my life. It. changed my life. This show changed my. life. You changed my life. This So I.

said, "Oh, let's call this year Change. Your Life TV.". >> Yeah. >> That's what we're talking about. This is. the year to change your life. We'll be. right back. >> The biggest backlash ever cuz people. said, "How dare you tell me that you. changed my life.". >> Wow. >> So, this is what I learned from that. Don't tell nobody you changed your life. >> Let them tell you that you changed your. life. It's not my job to tell you I'm. going to change your life. Nobody wants. to be changed or to think that that's. your goal is to change them. >> So,

>> well, when we when we use that idea of. like the world would be a better place. if everybody else just changed, it's a. terrible mantra to live by. Yeah, you. could try. I just don't think it's going. to help you actually grow. >> The third option is you could cancel. them. >> And if you cancel them, that means well. I. >> I'm just going to cut you off. >> Yeah, >> that's what you could do with a. complicated person. >> Yeah. >> The problem with cancellation is this. >> Cancellation and avoidance is sort of. the same thing, right? >> Well, cancellation is where I say I'm. done with you altogether. >> Yeah.

>> The problem with cancellation is it's. bad math because none of us want to be. on the other side of being canceled. In. fact, if if I cut somebody off, I have. all the rights to do that. But if. somebody cuts me off, I say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I want my day in. court." I I want to be able to say, "No, no, you misread my email. That's not. what I meant in that text message." No, you you want a second chance, which is. why the fourth strategy works, which is. you could try and understand them. Understanding means I'm going to move. towards this complicated person with. curiosity instead of judgment. The.

reason that this is important is because. each and every one of us has all had a. moment in our life where we were. misunderstood. And in that moment, all. we did, all we wanted was somebody to. ask one more question to be just a. little bit more curious. And so people. have this idea that, oh, I'm going to. move away from complicated people. But. I'm like, actually, you'd be surprised. what happens when you move towards them. You might actually learn something new. about this person that you didn't know. before. And I've learned time and time. again. somebody that used to be very. very complicated in my world. The more I.

actually got to know them, they actually. just became a name and it wasn't. complicated. >> Our listeners tell us that the podcast. is resonating with you and is serving as. a bright spot in your day. That means a. lot to me. So, here's the thing. I would. really appreciate it if you like and. subscribe to the Oprah podcast on. YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe. button and that way you won't miss an. episode in your queue. You don't have to.

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covered along the way. Because life. happens and with the right support, we. all just keep driving forward. And that, dear listener, is everything. >> You say with is the key word in this. title of your book. Why? Well, cuz how. to work with screams partnership. It. immediately tells you, hey, this person. that I have sitting across from me is. not my enemy. I'm working with We're all.

on the same team. I'm not working. against you. I'm not trying to work. around you. I'm trying to work with you. It it it makes us have a collaboration. mindset. >> Well, I love on page 54 when you say. when we view people as complicated, it's. often because they don't meet our. expectations. Something about them, their personality, their communication. style, their manners, their leadership, their social skills, their behavior. doesn't match our inner definition of.

what is right or normal. and you suggest. what you call an expectations detox. I. love this so much because I've done this. many times in my life. Please share. this. >> Yeah. So, an expectations detox is where. you begin to look at the world around. you and begin to ask yourself the. question, what am I expecting of the. people around me? Do I expect them to. have identical priorities? Do I expect. them to be mind readers? Do I expect. them to. >> This is so key change instantly. It's.

like, no, it's what we discovered in our. research is we kept hearing the same. phrase over and over and over again. And. it was the phrase, "I can't believe I. can't believe they would hit reply all. I can't believe they would say that in. front of my boss. I can't believe my. husband doesn't know where the kids. shoes are. I can't believe my in-laws. would say that. I can't believe I can't. believe I can't believe." We just came. alongside and said, "I think you should. start believing them." Somebody. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> that you know very well said if someone. shows you who they are, >> believe them. >> Believe them.

>> All right, bring up Maya Angelou here. >> So, we we said, "Hey, if if you can. begin to taper your expectations to be. able to say, hey, I'm actually I. actually see complicated coming a mile. away. In fact, it's like you've worked. with these people for a very, very long. time. You've been married to this. person. You've dated this person for a. long time." I'm like, you stop acting so. shocked when people have a bad attitude. or or don't have the same preferences as. you. It's like, no, I I've actually. tapered my expectations. And if you can. expect complicated and see it coming a.

mile away, then you can prepare for. complication. >> Well, and I think that works in the. opposite in the opposite too. I recently. had a conversation with someone, a. complicated conversation in a. complicated relationship where I was. saying to the person, tell me, I had. read your book. I said, so tell me what. your expectations are because the reason. why this isn't working is because you. have an expectation of me that I don't.

think I'm actually willing to fulfill. And then the person said, "Oh, I don't. have any expectations." And I said, "And. you also apparently have a lack of. self-awareness because you actually do. have multiple expectations that you're. putting on me and expecting me to know. what those expectations are and to. fulfill them.". >> Yeah. >> So it works it works the opposite. Yeah. >> Totally. >> Because I think so many times people are. disappointed in people because they. don't fulfill their expectations, but. they're not even clear about what those.

expectations are. >> Absolutely. And I would say that most. people's expectations. are silent. Yes. In fact, I I think that. most of us walk around the world and we. expect people to be two things they. rarely are. Simple imperfect. Except. nobody is that. In fact, the only. options you have for working with people. on this planet are complicated people. In fact, some people will say, you know, I'll say, "Hey, I wrote a book called. How to Work with Complicated People.". And this is what happens every single. time. They look in the sky and they go,

"I need that book.". And they and they see somebody. They see. a person. They don't even have a. definition of what complicated is. They. just they just go, "Oh, I I I see I see. that person." But nobody nobody looks up. and goes, "M, somebody needs that book. for me.". >> Yeah. >> And I think that's where the growth is. really found. >> Okay. So, we have all dealt with this. You get that email. >> That's right. >> And sends you over the edge and and or. you get a certain look from your boss or. colleague. Yeah. >> And you're like, "What was that all.

about? What is she really trying to. say?" And you start spiraling when. somebody triggers you. >> What should we do in that moment? >> Well, one, you you have full permission. to to call a timeout. I I think number. one, you you got to take a deep breath. What's actually happening when we get. triggered is our nervous system is out. of whack. >> And you are not going to outthink a. triggered body. You you you have to. >> take a deep breath. The second thing I. think you should do is you should really. name what's happening.

>> because when you give a name to your. trigger, it actually loses its power. All of us have different triggers. It. could be professional embarrassment. It. could be insecurity about how we look. It could be a compliment that somebody. else got that we wish they had given us. It could be somebody else getting. promoted. So being able to name that. thing helps you step outside of it, right? Because you're talking about it. and now it's. >> So shouldn't you in that moment say, "What just happened here? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why did that trigger me? Why am I. Why am I feeling this way? That's the. first question you should say. Why am I.

feeling this way? Oh, most people are. going to say, "Oh, because. >> he or she pissed me off." Yes. >> Okay. And then the question should be, but why did it piss me off? What is. really going on underneath the surface? I feel. >> humiliated or I feel embarrassed or I. feel, you know, that. >> I feel shame. >> I feel shame. Those are the questions. you should be asking yourself. >> Absolutely. And then from there, you. want to go, how much power am I going to. let this have over the rest of my day, my week, my life? >> Cuz once we name it and we look at it,

we're going to go, am I going to let. Keith like determine the rest of my. life? >> I'm sure not going to let Keith, he's. behind the camera. I'm sure not going to. let Keith This is the thing I learned so. many years ago. I've been I've been. around so long, but that I have so many. stories, but I remember I was holding a. grudge against somebody and I saw them. them. I was watch walking down Michigan. Avenue in Chicago. >> Wow. >> And that a person was on the other side. of the street and they were like just. swinging their bag. >> Living life. >> Living life. Turned, went into the.

Tiffany store. The Tiffany store. >> spending money. >> Spending money. And I'm like, I'm. walking around here mad. Thinking that. person's also walking around mad, feeling my whatever, whatever, and. realize they're happy. They've gone on. with their lives. Yeah. The thing that's. triggered you from an email or a text. message that somebody said they sent to. you at 7:18 a.m. >> and now it's 4:33 in the afternoon and. you're still thinking about it. Thinking.

about it, thinking about They're gone. on. They're swinging their pocky book. >> That's right. >> Going into Tiffany's. >> Yeah. They're not thinking about you. >> They're not thinking about you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The last thing I would say about. whenever we find ourselves being. triggered, we have to be the adults in. the room. We have to be the adults in the room. because there is a what psychologists. would call age regression. It's where. you and I turn into eight and nine year. olds. >> That's right. You turn into however old. you were when you first when that. trigger. >> Yep. >> first was implanted in the back of your.

brain. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. And whatever that thing is. >> And it happens to me all the time. You. know, my I turned 9 years old really. fast because when I was 9 years old, my. father unfortunately suffered a stroke. our household income was cut in half. And I remember going to my mother and. just being like, I don't want to be a. burden to my mom who now has to take. care of my dad and my two older. brothers. That day I became wildly. independent. That day I became an. entrepreneur. That little boy is what. allows me to do what I do now.

>> Right? But also being that independent. whenever I feel triggered, whenever I. feel disrespected, where my age. regression really pops in is I go, I. don't need you. I don't need you. I. don't if a client starts talking crazy. to me, I go, I don't need to be here. I. I I that's my age aggression. >> You immediately go to that. >> I immediately go back to I don't need. nobody, >> but I do need people. Yeah. And. >> so if you're if you're. >> put that that right there, Ryan, that's.

going to help a lot of people. That's. going to help a lot of people. >> Yeah. I I would just encourage people if. you're specific that specific example is. going to help a lot of people because a. lot of people immediately go into that. Well, okay then. I don't want to have. anything to do with you either. Yeah. That thing when you really do. >> Yeah. I mean, you you be the adult in. the room. If if you're going to have an. adult conversation, make sure the adult. version of you is in the room when it. happens because now you you've just. decided I realize there's some things. that happened in my childhood that I. wish didn't.

But I'm adult Ryan now, so I can have an. adult conversation. >> Yes. And so people use this now. Trigger. has become the word I just got. triggered. I just got triggered. I just. got triggered. But not willing to. examine what does that really mean? Yeah. Yeah, >> cuz people people assume, I think when. I've heard people use it, you know, so. casually that way, oh, that person had. no right to trigger me or how dare they. trigger me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When the trigger is showing up for.

actually your benefit to examine and to. actually become more of an adult. >> Yeah. It's an opportunity. >> It's an opportunity if you let it. >> Yeah. >> So, some of our listeners have questions. for you. Brian is an eighth grade. teacher in Michigan and Brian is joining. us. Hi Brian. >> What's up Brian? >> From the class trip to Washington DC, the classic eighth grade trip to DC. God. bless you. >> That's right. Thank you. We are having a. great time here. We are leaving tomorrow. night, but we are just running through. the capital for the first time with.

these kids and it couldn't be more of a. blast as. >> Oh, that's great. What's going on with. you at work? >> So, I am absolutely having a. generational divide at my work. So, for. context, I'm 26 years old. It is my. first year teaching and I am. >> Congratulations. I think that's great. that you chose that profession. That's. great. >> Thank you. It's the best choice for me. and we are nearing the end of year one. And for reference, I am one of the few. teachers in my 20s. The other four are. the only others in their 20s. The.

average age is probably closer to 50. And some of my colleagues actually were. my eighth grade teachers, which is. ironic. >> Crazy. And you know, we I'm so honored. and grateful to be doing what I'm doing. with the people that I'm with and. especially with the students. And we all. bring so much value to the table. I. think that my older colleagues bring. wisdom and experience because they've. done this a few times. And the younger. teachers bring innovation and some new. ideas, but we also have differences in.

how we approach education and some of. our principles. And my question as I'm. navigating this relationship with all my. colleagues is how do we allow the. younger workforce members to earn a seat. at the professional table to advocate. for their ideas and their approaches. >> while also honoring the wisdom and. experience of our colleagues and. inviting them to be a part of that. collaboration especially when we're.

trying to do what's best for the kids at. the end of the day. >> That's awesome. Well, Brian, I think the. word you just used is is already going. to be huge for you, which is, you know, you're just already honoring of the. older generation, which I think is going. to earn you some influence. The other. thing that's an interesting paradox that. I think all of us have to navigate in. the workforce is we get to where we are. by having knowledge and competence. But. what comes with knowledge and competence. is uh sometimes arrogance. And so you. actually need humility to come in there.

And so it's interesting. You can. sometimes feel this pressure to be a. know-it-all. I I love this idea of being. a know-it- which means there's some. things that I know, but I'm also curious. about a lot of other things. Here's the. funny thing. You. >> I love that. I'm a know it some. >> I'm a knowit some. Here's an interesting. paradox about it is when when you're a. know-it-all, like when you're really. really smart, like you work really hard. to be really really smart. The only. problem is nobody likes being around a. know-it-all. So you've worked really. hard to be a person that nobody wants to.

be around. So when you're at that table, there is something that you know there. is value that you have to offer. But. being know some is there's a curiosity. Um a question that you could ask them. that I've been asking a lot of people. that I just love is um what's something. you're unlearning right now? What's. something you're unlearning? What's. something you believe 10 years ago that. today you go I don't know about that? What am I what are you unlearning? What. you're showing is a great honor and. respect for them, but you're also. getting their wheels turning. Number.

one, if they don't have an answer to. that question, well, that means they're. actually not learning anything new. But. if they also don't have an answer to. that question, they might go, "Is there. something that I'm missing?" Another. question you could ask them in in such. an honoring way, you could go, "Hey, thanks for what you did for me in eighth. grade. >> Hey, what what do you think's changed. since I was in the eighth grader? Now. that we're trying to serve eighth. graders, what have you noticed about my. generation that's different from the. eighth graders that we have in our. classrooms right now? Again, you're.

you're still honoring and you but now. you have a posture of you're inviting. them to a table to have a conversation. versus a man, this these are some of all. of the things that we we need to do. So, what you're trying to do right now is by. influence in your organization. And I. think by being a knowit some, I think. it's really going to help you add value. to it. You know, I had Simon Senk here. at the tea house table uh recently and. he was saying that what the Gen X. generation needs to understand to echo.

what you're saying about Gen Z. generation and you know other. generations coming up is that it was a. completely different time. So when. you're 50 years old, 60 years old, you. think everybody is operating on the on. the same from from the same world view. because you had the same world. experiences. And he was just saying that. your generation in particular, Brian, has seen your parents grow up and get.

layoffs. They've seen that the golden. watch era of working for one company for. multiple years and being rewarded for. that, right? >> It didn't pay off so well. They've just. seen so many things that prior. generations. didn't experience. I mean, all the kids. you're teaching have grown up from birth. with technology, cell phones, and and. all of that, which makes a very. different world and world experience for. them. And I think what Ryan is.

suggesting here. >> is a fantastic opportunity for y'all to. get together in the teachers lounge, whatever y'all doing in there talking. about other students to actually have a. real conversation about the difference. between when you were there and if you. start out complimenting them, if you. start out sharing how much you got from. them just as as as Ryan has suggested. and then lead into so how do you think. it's different and do you think that you.

would be teaching the same to us then as. you're teaching now. I think that opens. the door for them to see it differently. cuz that's really what you're trying to. get them to do. >> is to see it differently and to Right. Absolutely. >> And to bring them along without. offending them, without like y'all are. old, >> without saying y'all are old. >> I think that absolutely it makes sense. to me. I mean, it has been just so. rewarding to do that full circle. experience with them, but I also want to.

maximize the time that I have left, especially as they're getting close to. retirement and one day I won't have them. as a resource moving forward. >> That's fantastic. >> Love it. >> Well, I think I think uh these are some. good takeaways, right? >> Yeah, >> absolutely. I mean, we are already. looking forward to next year, but we're. coming to the end of chapter 1, and I. really just want to start utilizing some. of these approaches for hopefully a long. and successful career with my kids. >> I think that's great. Thank you. I love. teachers. Thank you. Thank you so much,

Brian. Thank you, >> Brian. Appreciate. Thank you, Ryan. >> So, you devote a whole entire chapter uh. to communication, right? Right. >> And you've concluded what? That most. people are. >> pretty flawed at communicating. And. that's the word everybody always use. We. just need better communication. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We just need to have better. communication. So how how do people have better how do. people become better communicators? >> Well, first I think we have to establish.

what is going to be the goal of the. communication. What is the goal of this. conversation? >> I think that's I think I think in all. these circumstances people need need to. clarify what does that mean? Because the. word communication may mean one thing to. you. >> Sure. >> What you're sharing, it may mean. something else to me. >> Yeah. I I would say in this context, we're talking about having conversations. with difficult people or with a. complicated person. >> Yeah. >> And if we're honest about what our. actual goal is with these conversations, >> yes, >> it's actually agreement.

>> I actually have something and lowkey, I. actually really want you to agree with. me. And so that is that's my underlying. goal of the conversation. I think if. we're going to be effective in. communication, we have to shift the. goal. I don't think the goal should be. I'm trying to get you to agree with me. I think the goal should be connection. >> Okay. >> And the minute we lose connection, it's. going to be very very difficult for us. to have communication. >> A difficult conversation for sure. >> Absolutely. So Nadia joins us from.

Houston. Nadia, what's going on with. you? Hi there. >> Hi Oprah. Hi Ryan. Thanks for including. me in the conversation. >> So, I have been in HR for about 25. years. In the past 15 years, I've been. helping big tech organizations recruit. their executive leaders. Yeah. >> So, I know a thing or two about. complicated people. That's right. >> Um, I have to say one of my favorite. things in the book is acknowledging that. we too are complicated in someone's. story. Right. I found myself getting.

blocked with someone today and I was. able to go wait let you know I'm. probably complicated for them too and. that allowed me to diffuse the situation. remove the emotion and then we could. work towards solving an outcome. So. thank you for that. >> Yes. >> But my question for you is there is so. much rhetoric around complicated bosses, complicated peers, >> but I don't hear a lot of conversation. around leading complicated teams. And. let's let's unpack that a bit. It could. be they are not intentionally.

complicated. It could be macro, micro. things, or changes, difficult economy. But as a leader of teams, how do I drive. performance? You know, make sure we're. hitting the goals that we've set without. losing my humanity or my like human-. centered kindness. I'd love to get your. perspective. >> Yeah, you know, you've got you've got. quite a few layers there and uh Juan, thank you for your vulnerability and and. even just being able to to come on the. show. I think part of it is is leaders. have to set the tone and that's what.

people often forget that they are the. absolute tone setter. Your attitude is. the number one thing that will set the. tone for every single room that you. lead. And so even in our research, we. thought politics would be the number one. thing that would determine if a person. was complicated to work with or not. complicated or enjoyable. It was. actually dead last in our research. We. then thought it would be personality. profiles like, "Oh, I'm introverted, you're extroverted, or maybe you're. ambberverted, and you don't know until. you've had a cup of coffee." Like, we.

thought it was going to be those things. That was third to last. The number one. thing that determined if somebody was. enjoyable or complicated to work with. was attitude. Attitude. And And the. reason I love that is it's because it's. the number one thing you can actually. control. And so whenever you're dealing. with somebody that might be disgruntled. or dealing with somebody that might be. angry or somebody that's passive. aggressive, the temptation is to match. the energy. The phrase I like to use is. we don't match the energy. We set the. standard. I don't match passive.

aggressive email for passive aggressive. email. You might have a funky attitude, but I don't mean I might have a funky. attitude. I have already made a decision. about my attitude. And what we have. learned is that attitudes are. contagious. In fact, in the book, we. talk about how one compliment can. actually spread across 8,000. interactions within 24 hours, especially. for somebody like you who leads teams. because you decided to set the tone. You. decided that you were going to start off. meetings with fun ice breakers. You. decided you were going to lead the.

culture. You don't let somebody else. determine that temperature. You do. You. have chosen your attitude. So for me, I. travel and speak for a living, which. means I'm at the number one place in the. world every single day where the. angriest people go every day. The. airport. Let me tell you something. People be mad at the airport. Okay? They. be mad mad. Okay? They mad at the. weather. They mad at the gate agent. They mad at TSA. They mad at everybody. And so I just made a decision that since. this is where I work, I I'm not going to.

be mad. Why? I'm expecting it to not go. well. I'm expecting the delay. I'm. expecting weather to not go well. And. then all of a sudden, you know, agent. comes over, the announcer, oh, sorry, this plane has been delayed. And then. everybody, and they lose their minds. I'm like, no, I I've just decided I'm. going to have a great day at the. airport. >> You get to choose the energy you bring. every single day. Do not match the. energy. Set the standard. when you set. the standard. allows you to to step into some of those.

difficult conversations to be able to. say, "Hey, I care enough about you to be. honest with you.". >> And I can say that with a smile on my. face. >> I I I'm not against you. I care enough. about you to be honest with you. And and. and if I'm honest, I don't think you're. giving your best. And for in light of. the goals that you want to accomplish in. your career and in your life, in light. of the promotion that you want, hey, we. we we've got to raise the bar. You're. better than that. And so I I think you. can still speak with kindness, but you. still got a smile on your face and.

you've already made a decision about who. you're going to be when you show up. >> I think this is so great. Don't you. Don't you think this is great, Nadia? And also for the hundreds of little. aggressions or microaggressions that. people get. That's right. >> And I'm not just talking about racial. microaggressions. I mean. microaggressions you get from your. colleagues or you get them in texts and. so forth. You don't have I think if you. just take a pause, you don't have to. respond to the text or the email with. the same energy that's coming at you. That's what you're saying. You have a.

choice to literally flip the energy. around and do something more positive. I. think that's terrific. >> Amazing. Set the standard. I love it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Nadia. >> You're welcome. >> So, in your research, one of the things. you found, I heard, was that nearly half. of Americans quit their jobs. Really? Because of their boss? Oh yeah, big. time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's amazing. Uh just a. little under half have skipped a day at. work because they were having to deal. with a complicated person.

>> You say people don't quit jobs, they. quit bosses. >> That's right. They quit leaders. >> Yeah. >> No question about it. >> What do you want to say about this? >> It's interesting because you know it. goes back to this idea of it. >> because the leadership starts at the. top. >> It does. >> Yeah. and their relationship with that. person that's in charge of them really. determines if they're going to truly. enjoy that job or not. Which means we. have a whole lot of power in being able. to create the kind of environment that. people look forward to showing up to on.

a Monday morning. But it's hard to look. in the mirror. It's hard to take. accountability in. >> I think that's a great great great. position or a great attitude for. managers to take. Yeah. >> Do I want to create the kind of. environment that people want to show up. and be in this space on a Monday. morning? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And if cuz if they do that, well, now they're active. They're being very. intentional about about the culture. But. it it starts with them. It it starts. with the mirror. In fact, when we did.

our research, we asked all of our. participants, "How would you define. >> You've mentioned research so many times. Where is where is all this research?". Yes. >> It's on our website. It's in the book. It's it it's there. We ask all of our. participants a very important question. How would you define the word. complicated? Because complicated to you. might not be complicated to me and. something that's simple to me might be. very complicated for you. And so we. wanted to get an academic definition of. the word complicated. >> First person wrote this Leslie. I said. who is Leslie and what did she do to. you? Like do you understand the.

question? Next person wrote the name. Jamal. I said I know a Jamal. Like it's. is it's what did Jamal do? And so it's. it's usually a person like a lot of. times we're looking for well is this. person difficult is this usually a name. pops up in somebody's mind and it's we. have to come to the sobering reality. >> that we could be somebody's name that on. the other side of me Ryan could be. complicated and if I realize that well. then I can actually do something about. that to go you know what I actually want. to make this relationship better and if.

there's some adjustments that I can make. to create the kind of environment that. people look forward to showing up to on. a Monday then I want to do that. >> Yeah. And it's also, you know, nobody. ever labels themselves complicated. You. know, I I remember talking to. >> a designer once who was just one of the. most complicated people on earth, and. she was like, I think I'm the nicest. person. >> You do? >> Well, and that's the funny thing is is. you could be easy to work with and a. headache at home. You you could be a.

nightmare to raise kids with and the. best boss ever. You could be uh a gym to. leadership, but you could be a. micromanager to everybody that reports. to you. Like that's why it's complicated. because it really is subjective and in. in the eye of the beholder. >> I think that's why this book is so. important. I think everybody who is. actually working should get this book. and this is a good book to leave with. the person's who is complicated. Just. leave it on their desk with a little. love note.

>> That's right. Amber posts often on. social media about complicated people at. work. Let's watch this short video from. Amber. >> There are way too many companies and. bosses that don't take bullying and. abuse at work seriously. And we've all. talked about quiet quitting, but I would. like to coin the term quiet bullying. There ever been a time where you applied. for a job and you were super. overqualified, but it's a job that you. actually wanted and they turned you away. because you were overqualified. The. problem is when we're high performers. under a bad boss, it makes us look bad. if we tell on them. if we go to anybody.

above them and you just can't really. tell anyone. Is it that the biggest. bullies at work and the meanest people. get moved up into leadership the. fastest? Why are they getting the most. promotions and the most money? >> Too often we hear that people just don't. want to work, especially young people. But can we finally talk about the fact. that that's true? >> Some people at your job really, really. need to hear this. You are only as. beautiful as you treat the people around. you. >> All right, I agree with that. Amber. joins us from Virginia. Hi, Amber. I. know you've read Ryan's work. What do. you What do you want to ask him? Thank.

you. >> Hi. Hi, Ryan. Hi, Oprah. Thank you for. having me today. It is so cool to be. here with you guys. Ryan, I I'm a huge. fan of yours and something that I really. love about what you do is you are. incredibly vulnerable. >> and you don't see that in a lot of. professional speakers. Um, you are. really open about talking about your. missteps or maybe where you could have. done something differently. Yeah. >> So, a couple things that really. resonated with me about the book because. I loved it was this sentiment that we.

are all weird and irritating and. complicated to someone. >> And when we're difficult, we really. expect acceptance and grace, but when. someone else is, we just cancel them. >> Right. >> So, that leads me to my question for. you, which is when we're doing all of. that inner work. >> Yeah. um and we are dealing with someone. that is just. they are just too complicated. >> What are the signs of that? What is the. sign that they are just too complicated.

and it's just dead growth at that point? >> It's a phenomenal question. You know the. the subtitle of this book strategies for. effective collaboration with nearly. anyone. We say nearly because some. people are certified crazy and you. cannot work with everybody. And so we we. have we're hopeful but we we also have. to be realistic. of it. >> And so there are going to be some people. that are unapproachable, um, uncoachable, unapologetic, and some people just aren't trying to.

grow. They they have this thing in them. that says, "My personality is. crock-potted into what it is. I'm going. to do me, you do you, boo boo." Is is. their mantra. And some people just. aren't trying to be civil. They're not. trying to grow their relationships. are. not trying to be a better colleague. They're not trying to be a better. parent, a better spouse. And those are. going to be very, very difficult people. that you are going to have to have. boundaries with. I'm a firm believer. that boundaries are not walls. They are.

doors with locks on them, which means. you decide who comes in and out when you. want them to. And a lot of people find. that very. >> It's really good. >> They they they find it difficult. >> Really good. They find it difficult to put up. boundaries because it shatters the. illusion that everybody's my friend. >> Ah we we want this idea of like I like. everybody and everybody likes me. That's. just not true. That's not reality. And. so so we do have to put up these.

boundaries to be able to say hey I I I. can't be close with everybody. I can't. be everybody's best friend. I'm not. always going to say the right thing. I'm. not always going to say everything that. you like. and and and it's okay to uh. pray for somebody from a distance and. not be in the group chat anymore. It's. okay to have empathy for somebody and. also have some distance. >> Yeah. Yeah. My Maya Angelo, you. mentioned her earlier, my mentor friend. used to say, "I wish you well in your. struggle. I wish you well in your.

struggle.". >> No question. >> Yeah. And but I'm done with that. Yeah. But I wish you well in your struggle. And it's okay to do that. I wish you. well. >> Yeah. >> Really? Truly. Every time that you we. are consistently training people how to. treat us and we don't even realize it. Every time that you respond to a text at. midnight, you're telling them it's okay. to text me at midnight. Every time you. let a comment slide, you're telling. them, >> "Sorry, Tara.". >> You're you're you're telling them it.

it's okay. And so it's okay until you. tell them that it's not. >> Yeah. >> And and that's where I I believe it's. important to to set those boundaries. >> You can tell me. Terara's been my. producer for 30 years. You can tell me. I just woke up and I had to pee in the. middle of the night and I just sent a. text or email at that moment. You You. don't have to answer it. >> I mean, but this is Oprah. Oprah's. different though. Oprah's different. If. Oprah texts me at midnight, I'm I'm. responding. Okay, that's different. >> No, no, no, no, no. I just have that. thing and sometimes I'm like, maybe I. should just wait. Maybe I should just. wait. But okay, so she didn't have to.

read it. Read it when you want to read. it. But anyway, all right. So, anything. else you want to share with us? How do. we convince people who just assume. they're not complicated to actually pick. up your book? Because the ones that are. that want to do the inner work like you. know they they're like yes. >> That's a really good point Amber that. all of us who are trying to work with. the complicated people excluding. ourselves we're picking up the book but. the really complicated people. >> they're not reading the book.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I a counselor. friend said this to me a couple of. months ago and it was just very helpful. She said, "Don't work harder than your. client. Don't work harder than your. client." Like, I'm not chasing you to. go, "Hey, when's your next appointment? Hey, when are you going to work on you?". No, I'm just I'm just going to work on. me. My mindset is if if my plan in life. is to say my marriage would be better if. my wife just got it together. If that's. the plan, then the marriage isn't going. to get better. No, no, no. The marriage. gets better when I get better. when I.

grow when I So, and your question is a. question that I get all the time and and. I just always tell them they're not in. the room, you are. And if you're in the. room, this book is not about how to fix. other people. It's about how to grow. you. And so, if you when you get better, every relationship you have will get. better because you you've got a growth. mindset. You can try and inspire them. You could share some of my videos on. social media and say, "Hey, you should. check out this guy. Isn't this guy awes? I mean, you could do that and and then. who knows, they'll run into a QR code.

and they'll they'll buy a book. Um, but. I I think that the best thing that you. can do for somebody that's complicated. in your world is for you to grow you and. for them to see the fruit of what's. happening in your life. >> Yeah. Really. >> tell yourself a different story maybe. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. For sure. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. Thank you, Amber. >> Thank you guys. >> Love all your videos, girl. Love those. videos. Thank you. So you share Ryan. that there's one word to really sum up.

uh you know most of your research and. what is that? >> Hope. >> Hope. Okay. >> Yeah. Hope. You know there are so many. people. who feel so stuck in their life. They. feel like they have been handed a code. of conduct and that they have no no. other options. Mhm. >> The thing I hear from people the most is. it's like they're getting their code of. conduct from their zip code. >> Yeah. >> And their household and and they talk. like this. I'm from Chicago. You like,

hey, calm down. I know some very nice. people in Chicago. You know, I'm from. Detroit. Like, hey, hey, Detroit's. coming up. Leave Detroit alone. You. know, but they have this like where I'm. from. indicates where I'm going. And and the. what sums up this book is, hey, you can. be different if you want to. There's. hope that if if you need to go have that. difficult conversation, you can. If. you're trying to rebound from a divorce, you can. There is a better future for. you. You can decide your code. You can. change. That is the purpose of this.

book. >> Because as you say on the back of the. book, on the other side of complicated. is the wonderful wide openen world of. effective collaboration and a workplace. you can love. >> That's right. >> Especially if managers are thinking. about how do I make this the kind of. workplace that people want to come to on. a Monday. I think so. So many really. vital lessons in this book. Thank you. for writing it, Ryan Leak. And our. thanks to Brian and Nadia and Amber. Ryan's book, How to Work with. Complicated People, is available.

everywhere books are sold. I know you. know somebody who needs this book. Go. well. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. And thank you to our. friends at Geico for presenting today's. episode. If you've ever struggled with a. difficult boss or co-orker, and really, who hasn't? The QR code for Ryan Leak's. book, How to Work with Complicated. People, is on your screen. And it may be. exactly what you need. It's a guide to. understanding others more deeply, communicating more effectively yourself, and finding better ways to work through.

conflict. You can buy it right this. second just by scanning the QR code on. your screen. Here's to better. relationships. our listeners tell us that the podcast. is resonating with you and is serving as. a bright spot in your day. That means a. lot to me. So, here's the thing. I would. really appreciate it if you like and. subscribe to the Oprah podcast on. YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's. it's just a quick tap of the subscribe. button and that way you won't miss an.

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