How to Navigate Life’s Big Transitions with Oprah and Bestselling Author Jim Collins

So, I had y'all many revelations reading. this book. The key question is not what. you are good at, but what are you. encoded for? >> Yep. >> Y'all, it's a different way of looking. at your life. Not what are you good at, >> Yep. >> but what you are encoded for. Hi everybody. I'm so glad to be with you. here on the Oprah podcast, and woo, am I. excited today for you to learn from the.

man who's sitting with me. Jim Collins. is a renowned business writer. He is a. researcher whose many books, including. his number one New York Times. bestseller, if anybody's in business, you've read his book Good to Great. But. he says his most recent research project. that he spent 10 years working on turned. almost everything that he believes on. its head. And that research has now. culminated in this groundbreaking new. book, What to make of a life? And before.

we get started, I wanted to say that. when I first read Good to Great, >> [clears throat]. >> remember? >> I do remember. >> I think it was around. 2004. >> It was exactly that. >> Was it? >> Yeah. >> Okay. I was so charged up by it that I. asked you to come to Chicago and speak. to my entire staff, hundreds of people, >> Yeah. >> right? >> Yeah. >> And I can't tell you how many times I've. said, let's confront the brutal facts. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. [laughter]. Uh so, so many times over the years. I.

was so inspired by that book. >> Thank you. >> Yes. And it's wonderful to see you. again, Jim. >> to see you again. >> Yeah. Thank you for coming all the way. to my front porch. >> Yeah, it's a very It's a wonderful part. front porch. [laughter]. >> Jim Collins [music] is a business. writer, prolific researcher, and author. He is best known for his runaway. bestseller [music]. Good to Great, which sold 5 million. copies worldwide, and and like a bible. for many business [music] leaders. In his new book, What to Make of a Life,

Jim asks readers to think about their. own unique skills and natural gifts, and. to recognize [music]. the intrinsic value of major life. transitions. He makes the [music]. distinction that what you are good at. may be very different from what you. [music] are wired to do with your unique. innate abilities and passions. He hopes. to help you answer this question, what. [music] is your code for what to make of. your own life?

We often ask the question here on on. this podcast of what makes a meaningful. life? >> Mhm. >> And I just have to say I was I was. intrigued, I was inspired, I was. fascinated by every story in this book, and the way you researched and the way. you analyzed what makes a meaningful. life. That's what this book is all. about. For all the notable people that. you talked to, and this is what I want to say to you. all. No matter where you are, what stage.

you are in this your life, this book is. going to apply to you because we all. have a life, we all want to have. meaningful lives, and I look forward to. watching this become a best seller. because I think this is the book that. should be on people's bedside. You know, you go and you read it and you come back. to it and come back to it. >> Good. >> Why did you come up with this idea for. what makes a meaningful life? I love. that I love that title. What What to. make of a life? >> You know, what's what's interesting, too, is that for a long time I didn't. have the title. So, I was afraid we'll.

never publish cuz I'll never find the. title. [laughter]. >> Yes. >> And and but it was buried in the text. Uh. you know, what's interesting is I think some. people are going to be surprised because. uh I you know, I've done all this stuff. studying companies and so forth and. they're Well, why am I looking at the. question of life? Uh and as you know from reading, it just. has really deep personal seeds for me. >> In the book, Jim describes [music]. cliffs as a time of major life. transitions. He explains fog as the.

period of confusion and uncertainty that. typically follows a cliff. Jim believes. being [music] in frame means you are in. alignment with your natural gifts. And. finally, he sees encodings as the. essence of what makes you you. So, I. want to start here. You tell the story. of being in Hawaii. >> Yeah. >> and it was your wife Joanne. >> Yeah. >> who seeded the idea. >> Mhm. >> for studying how people move through. their cliffs in life. >> right. >> So, can you tell us the Ironman story?

>> Yeah. So, Joanne, we we've been married. 45 years now. And back in the 1980s, Joanne was a world-class athlete. And. there's this thing called the Ironman. And of course, that's. >> We all know what the Ironman. >> Yeah, the Ironman is. And Joanne was not. just doing the Ironman, she was. competing to win. And she was so wonderfully made for it. She's a competitor by nature, an. incredible athlete, so well in frame with it. But, in her. 1985 race where she did win the world. championship,

she had this lingering hamstring injury. And in that race actually, that was an. amazing thing to watch because she had. this 10-minute lead with about 10 miles. to go. >> You write of that so beautifully. She. had like a 10-minute lead. >> And then a 9-minute lead. And then. 8-minute lead. Exactly. >> And the hamstring caught up, and she. ended up, of course, winning the race, but by only about 90 seconds. And the. main thing is the hamstring injury never. healed. And here here she had this thing. that defined her. She was so beautifully. made for. She was so exquisite at doing.

it. >> Mhm. >> And it was being ripped away from her by. this injury. And so, one morning we're. sitting at our little kitchen table, and. she said simply. just gasped. It was a gasp. >> Yeah. >> She said I feel like I'm dying because. this thing that defined her Imagine if. you could never have another. conversation. Right? You feel like I'm dying. >> Yeah. >> And I had no answer. The one phase of her life was ending.

And I think that's when the seed of. people go through cliffs where life as. you knew it has changed in some. fundamental way. Something. inalterable has happened. And you have. to confront the question, well, now what. do you make of a life now that that's. done? Now that that's over? Now that. this is so changed under my feet? >> Yeah. >> And I think that's when the seed of. looking at these people through the lens. of their cliffs. >> Yes. That's why I love this book so much. is because it's it it demonstrates story.

after story that nobody gets through. life without a cliff. >> No one. No one we studied anyways. >> No one you studied. And and and and I. conclude that nobody gets through life. without a cliff. >> That's right. >> So if you if you're living a life, you're going to have a cliff. And so the. thing is to be prepared for that not not. only be prepared for what you do when. the cliff comes. >> That's right. >> So let's go back to your first cliff. You begin What to Make of a Life. I mean. I makes me emotional thinking about you. going back to visit your father. So.

let's start with that story. >> Oh, yeah. >> Can you tell us the story when you were. in high school? You took a long bus ride. to visit your father. >> So um. so I think the real the deepest seeds of. this go back to that. I My father. >> me so emotional thinking about you as a. young boy. >> And and my dad I so desperately wanted. my father to be a father. And he had taken us off to San Francisco. in the middle of the Haight-Ashbury in. the 1960s and it ended up not just the. summer of love, it was also a violent.

My mom finally took me and my brother. and myself back to our back to Boulder. where we'd come from, Colorado. We lived. in this ice cold basement. We didn't. have a Christmas tree, but. >> So your mom had decided. >> That's it. >> whatever your craziness is, I'm going to. be better off being a single mother. And. she took the boys and. >> And left. Yeah. Yeah. My mom's just. doing the best she can in this really. cold basement. And this entire time. though, I just had this. I really hoped, desperately hoped my. father would reappear.

>> Mhm. Doesn't every kid? >> Yeah. It's like, I want a father. >> Yeah. >> And so, in early high school. I made this little pilgrimage down. My. father was living in an adobe hut with a. dirt floor. in New Mexico. >> Mhm. >> And I had this kind of romantic idea. Like, I had this thought, I'm going to. bring it was around Thanksgiving. I'm. going to bring him a turkey. And so, I. got this. >> How old were you? >> It was like early high school, maybe. like 10th grade. I think it's basically.

what it was. >> yeah. >> Yeah. And I got this pre-packaged turkey. You. can picture me, right? And I get on this. Greyhound bus. from Colorado down to New Mexico. And. I'm going down to to the adobe hut with. the dirt floor and the wood stove. And I. had this romantic image that. >> Yeah. >> I'd bring this turkey. My father and I. would cook it in the wood stove. My father would emerge as a father. And and I don't know. >> He's going to be so happy that you're. bringing the turkey. >> Exactly. >> And you write it so beautifully, Jim. That's why I'm so emotional because as I. was reading it, I thought, "Oh, this is.

like a scene out of a movie.". >> Yeah. It's yeah, not a happy part of the. movie. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> And so, and then and I get there. and what's so in my mind is that whole. weekend. my father never asked a question about. me that I can recall. And he mainly spent the weekend talking. about how hard his mom had made his life. >> Yeah. >> and trying to get me. to convince her to give him money. >> So, he you're you're the son, you go.

back to see your father. You're excited. to see your father and he's like, "How. to get your mom. >> my grandma. >> his mom. >> Yeah. >> to give money. To give him money. Yeah. And I I had this That's when I had this. shattering realization. There will never. be a father there. And when I got back on that bus going. back north to Colorado, that's when for. me my father died while he was still. alive. And I And that was the seed just like. I'm a I'm I'm I'm what? A 15-year-old. kid or whatever. And I'm looking out at.

at sort of the fog of life. I have no. idea how to do it. I have no male role. models. I have no sense for how you find. your way in the world, what to do with a. single life. You only get one of them. And I was just. heading out into the murk, completely. unguided. And um I think that's when the seed like. I I was trying to figure out what to. make of a life as a 15-year-old kid, and. I had no idea. I had no idea how to have. an idea. >> So here's what you write about cliffs on.

page 154. You say the cliffs of life can. take many forms, and those of you who. are listening and watching to us, you. may recognize yourself in some of these. forms. In the lives we studied and in. our own lives, here's a short list of. possible cliffs that can hit a life. Mourning the end of a significant. relationship, experiencing a dramatic. change in personal finances, dealing. with a health event or diagnosis, feeling upended by a natural disaster, getting fired or laid off, seeing demand. for your work, job, profession dry up,

discovering that someone important is. untrustworthy. Oh my god, betrayals. really are cliffs for people. Reeling. from a business or professional setback, losing an incredibly important person in. your life, leaving behind a. life-defining role or impossible to. replicate experience, or any version of. waking up to the fact that one phase of. life has come to an end. >> That's right. >> You've determined there's no such thing. as a cliff-less life. >> I am We even, as you know from from the material, we.

tried to find cliff-less lives to study. And and we we were unsuccessful and. that's when I concluded cliffs are us. We actually we all have them. And there. can also be positive cliffs, too. There. can be cliffs where you achieve. something and that part of life is over. >> So, for everyone who's watching and. listening to us, no such thing as a cliff-less life. >> Yeah. >> It's what you do when the cliff comes. When you get to the cliff. >> That's right. >> And you write that a lot of people move.

into what you call fog. Yeah. Remember the moment we heard actor. Michael J. Fox had Parkinson's disease? He had this giant career, first with. sitcom Family Ties, and then the. blockbuster Back to the Future series. and so much more. And I thought it was. so interesting how you showed us in What. to Make of a Life that it was 7 years. from the time he was diagnosed. to the time he actually told the public. >> Yeah. >> And that he was in a fog basically that.

whole time. Talk about that. >> So, I expected cliffs. >> Right. >> I expected cliffs. >> Right. >> I expected cliffs cuz it was kind of the. study design. I was looking at people, matching them at cliffs, etc. What I. really didn't expect was the prevalence. of fog where something happens like a. diagnosis. or probably I think you might have met. Katherine Graham, right? When when. Katherine Graham. >> I love Katherine Graham. >> Oh boy, how can you not love Katherine. Graham, right? And she loses her husband. to manic depression, uh takes his own.

life, and all of a sudden she has the. newspaper on her hands. And what I. realized is that in the wake of a cliff, we observed these periods of fog where. you're lost, you're befuddled, you're. confused, you're disoriented, you're. reeling, you're uncertain. >> Yeah, that happened to me when I ended. the Oprah show. I was in a fog for a. while. >> Okay, so that's very interesting, actually. So, that and I remember when. we first met, you were contemplating. that yeah, then you decided to go over. the cliff, yeah, your own cliff, yeah,

right here we are today, you're on the. other side of the fog, >> [laughter]. >> right? But the fog, do you mind me. asking what the fog was like? >> was was terrible. I was trying to figure. out I was just talking with the crew. last night. We're talking about the. things in the shows and the next. chapters and the things that I was. doing. Yeah. Trying to figure out where. do I land this. Because I knew for certain that it was. time to end the show. >> Yes. >> And the big mistake that I made was that.

I did not wait. I did not take the time. to wait a year and figure it out. I went. from one thing right into trying to. build a network and trying to build a. network at the same time that that I was. ending the show. And so I was in a fog. of what do you program and how do you. program a whole network? It's not the. same thing as doing a show every day, yeah. >> Yeah. And I think one of the things that. I really really want people to gain from. this book is the the self-compassion for.

being in the fog. So first of all, when. you go into through a cliff, we're all. going to have them. Fog's not a defect. I mean, you're. Oprah, you had fog. >> Yeah. >> Katharine Graham, right? And Katharine. Graham as Katharine Graham had fog. >> Yeah. >> And uh and so the the that you have. these periods and your experience, one. of the things we learned is. I need to move in small steps through. the fog. >> this is what I learned once I was in the. fog. Exactly what you say about simplex.

steps. >> Yeah, so I'm curious so. >> Yeah, once I was in the fog, I realized. the way to get out of the fog is to take. just the next right move. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it I you know, I took this big leap. instead of taking a simple step right. after the show. And then I have this big. leap and now I'm trying to figure out. how to get out of it. >> Yeah. >> What is the next right move? And that. was simple step after simple step after. simple step. That's right. Go back to. the reason why you wanted to do it in. the first place and then take simple. steps to get yourself out of it. >> do you mind me I'm curious.

How did you know when the fog had. started to clear? So, I mean so there's. this foggy period. You eventually get to. simple taking those next steps to get. through it. And at some point, you know, you might be you know, the fog kind of. clears. How long did it take you to get there? And. >> Took me a couple of years. >> Couple of years in your case. >> a couple of years. >> So years. >> Took Took me a couple of years. Yes. I. was going through the motions of working. and still doing interviews and doing. things, but I I was still like this.

doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel. right. This doesn't feel right. And so I. was running around like So I went from. having a show where people came to me. every day on the show and I decided, okay, done with that. Now, the next. chapter. I'm running around the country. interviewing other people. >> Yeah. >> I'm like taking the crew all around the. country and around the world and I was. like, well, this doesn't feel right. either. So, yeah. >> And when did did the fire dim at that. time or was it just. >> my my fire dimmed. My fire It was like.

this doesn't feel like this is coming. from a truthful authentic place for me. And so I'm going to end this and figure. out what is the next thing to do. >> there a time you knew the fire had come. back? >> Actually, when I started doing this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Is right back in frame? >> Right. >> [clears throat]. >> Yeah. >> Mhm. >> Okay, so I could have been in your. study. >> 100%. >> [laughter]. >> So you're talking about what chapter. you're in. [laughter]. >> But I think it's really important to. re-emphasize that the the fog is not a. defect. >> Fog is not a defect. That's right.

>> Right? >> That's right. >> When you have come through the cliff. period. And how do you get through the. fog sooner? What would you say is the. best advice for that? >> People might be surprised to know that. it took you a couple of years. Right? You You You must have it all figured. out. But to know that it could take you. a couple of years. And the the way you get through. or what we basically learn in the study. is you take these steps, right? You're. you're kind of wandering through the fog. and and if you try to jump just cuz you. want to get out of the fog, like I'm. uncomfortable in the fog. I've got to.

have an answer. You just might jump. right off another cliff. And uh so I. mean but if you just sit still, you. don't go anywhere, either. So it's a. matter of. >> to take some kind of action. >> Exactly. Steps. I don't know what I. don't know what's on the other side of. the fog. So I just look around at what's right in. front of me. I'll take this step. And. once I sit there, then I'll kind of look. around again and I'll take the next. step, you know, taking the obvious next. step. The step, step, step. And the fog. gradually begins to clear. But while. within that, >> Yeah. >> uh when you describe you're back to.

this, right? >> So. >> I started back I start actually started. doing SuperSoul. I started doing. interviews with thought leaders. Yeah. Cuz that is what really feeds my soul. and feeds my interest and and it's what. I want to do to help people live better. lives. So trying to do other kinds of. programming was not working for me. >> And and what uh part of the path out of. the fog, especially. especially if the cliff is shatteringly. unexpected, yeah, then you can be really. really lost. Uh but.

uh the whole first part of the book, you. know, has to do this thing with, you. know, coming into frame with your. encodings, the things that will help. >> I want to talk about now. Let's talk. about encodings. >> Exactly. And I think the key is you. iterate to eventually get back in frame. And what I love about your story is in a. way. you went out and then you circled back. >> Circled back. I did the and circled. back. Yeah. >> And and now it's a different set, but. the encodings, the the being in frame, and. >> Well, let's talk about that so people. know what we're talking about. So I had.

you all many revelations reading this. book. Uh and I thank you, Jim, for. giving us a new language, actually, for. explaining the fullness of purpose. because people, I know put so much. emphasis you all do and I have to every. you know graduation speech is about your. purpose your purpose your purpose and I. think that this is a crucial line in the. book you write the key question is not. what you are good at but what are you. encoded for?

>> Yep. >> Y'all it's a different way of looking at. your life not what are you good at. >> Yeah. >> but what you are encoded for it so can. you explain how is it different encoding. versus purpose? >> Yeah. So encodings are like these. capacities we have. that await discovery through the. experiences of life. And you and I have a you have a set of. encodings I have a set of encodings and. most of them I think we will.

not discover when our life runs out. We. just hope to discover some of them. >> Mhm. >> And and that what happens is it's like a. constellation and then there's a window. frame. >> Mhm. >> And at any given moment. there is the frame is either not many. encodings shining through or it shifts. and a whole bunch of encodings are. shining through the frame. And they activate and it's like it just. clicks. So uh somebody who I know you. love. I fell in love with studying. >> Toni Morrison.

>> Yeah. I I wish I had the joy of that you had. of knowing her. >> Oh. >> But you've talked about. >> the great joys one of the great joys. >> Yeah. So she always been about books. but when she took up that pencil. >> She was encoded for being an author. >> So encoded for being an author and it. was like once it clicked it was just. like bang and she didn't and said. >> to that she was an editor and doing. things for other people. >> Exactly. >> And then she started to write The Bluest. Eye because it was a book that she most. wanted to read to read herself. >> That's right.

>> And she thought I'm going to write this. book. >> Yep. >> because I want to read this book because. nobody's writing stories about black. girls like this. So I'm going to write a. book that I would want to read. >> Yep. >> And then when she started writing, she. realized that she was not only born to. write, she was encoded to write. >> Totally encoded. And she couldn't. There's one of my favorite little. vignettes and yeah, I. we'll just keep with the conversation, but it's just one that so stuck with me. is she's she's at home writing with her. number two Ticonderoga soft lead. pencils, right? That was what she loved. to write with in these lined pieces of.

paper. And she's writing and she has. this sentence that has to get out, right? And one of her sons. toddler at the time comes up and kind of. spits up on her paper. >> Yeah. >> And and she doesn't wipe away the the. spit. She keeps writing cuz she's like, "I can wipe that away later, but the. sentence can't wait.". >> That's right. >> Right. Yeah. And the sentence is right. here. I don't want to lose it. >> right here. I can't lose this sentence. >> I don't want to take the time to even. wipe wipe wipe wipe the spittle, right? >> Exactly. >> And and and and let's just say this. started in her 40s. She was in her 40s. when this happened.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and actually, I think that's one of. the really uplifting things about this. um studies. You can find either a first. frame or new frames. later in life. So, this idea that. somehow, well, to be a novelist like. Toni Morrison, you must have had to been. doing it like from you're 18. She was in. her 40s, as you know, and that's when she started writing and. it was a discovery for her that I'm a. writer. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then she never stopped, right? Once. she was in frame, once she was doing. what she was encoded for,

I mean, she would do it until she simply. couldn't anymore. >> That's right. Writing was the thing that. fulfilled her and gave her. >> Yeah. >> And and the same thing for me. I mean, I. started speaking in the church when I. was three, four years old. >> Yeah. >> That's how I got my validation. >> Yeah. >> I know for sure. >> Yeah. >> that I was encoded to communicate with. people in the way that I do and to. continue this trajectory of self-renewal. for myself and to help other people get. it, but it started with little Bible.

verses, speaking in the church. So, I am. encoded to be a communicator. Encoded. >> Yeah, and it's a discovery, right? You. can That's the thing that's different. about a a strength versus an encoding. You turn your encodings kind of into. super strengths, but you can make. yourself strong at something by just. sheer willpower and and study or. practice or whatever. Encodings are. these discoveries that when you hit. them, it's like when she picked up that that. pencil or when you discovered I can ask. a question, I can be in a conversation. or when John Glenn got in an airplane.

for the first time, the aircraft was like a glove on his. hand. Yeah. That just extension. >> Yeah, you you were saying John Glenn and. Gordon Cooper that they were not just. great astronauts, but encoded to be. >> Totally. They I don't know about you, but I'm reasonably confident that if I. were on top of a spaceship or I was in a. in a fighter jet with somebody chasing. me in the sky trying to knock me out of. the sky, my heart rate doesn't go down. Okay. Theirs, John Glenn's heart rate.

was about the same as being on his couch. watching TV and Gordon Cooper before. they launched into space, he took a nap. Right? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, you tell that. [laughter] story he took a nap. >> So, that that that sense of their. encoding to be calm under that. incredible intensity of you actually. might die the next moment and you have. to perform. That's an encoding and then they. >> You can't you can't even be trained for. that. >> is. It just is. And then of course, the. great challenge in their life was the. cliff of the end of that and had to find. new things. But, that's what encodings.

are when they click when the when the. frame clicks and then of course, as you. were describing earlier, you also know. when you're out of frame. Right? So, the same person. with the frame shifts and now you're out. of frame, it's sort of language. >> Mhm. >> And and the challenge then is how to get. back in frame, get back in frame with. the encodings. Um. I love how you light up about your. friendship with Toni Morrison. >> Have you ever encountered a writer like. that? >> Oh, I mean, you better be ready for some.

serious mental exercise. >> When I When I finished reading her book. Beloved, I remember looking her number. up in the phone book or I calling Nyack, New York and getting her phone number. This is when people used to be listed. There used to be a phone book, y'all. And there used to be [laughter]. such a thing as a phone book with. people's numbers in it. Anyway, and I. called her and I said, "Ms. Morrison, I. just finished reading your book Beloved. and I how extraordinary it was for me. and an experience it." I said, "But do.

people tell you they have to go over the. sentences?" And she said, she paused and. she said, "Well, that, my dear, is. called reading.". >> [laughter]. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> In that voice. >> In that voice. >> voice. >> voice. I think it's so interesting that. you would say that my eyes light up. talking about her because one of the. greatest lessons of the Oprah show was. when she said, "Do your eyes light up. when you see me? Do your face light up. when you see me?" All the mothers in the. audience. >> Yes. >> And it's interesting to see when a kid. walks in the room, your child or anybody else's child,

do you does your face light up? Or. and that's what they're looking for. And when my children used to walk in the. room when they were little, I looked at them to see if they had. buckled their trousers or their hair was. combed or if their socks were up. And. so, you think your affection and your. deep love is on display cuz you're. caring for them. It's not. When they see you, they see the critical. face. What's wrong now?

But then, if you let your as I tried from then on. to let your face speak what's in your. heart. Because when they walked in the room, I. was glad to see them. >> [laughter]. >> It's just a small as that. >> You know, many years later people told. me that changed their interaction with. their children. No matter which is so. important today cuz people are so, you know, engrossed in their phones, their kids coming in the room, you're. you're not present at all. But, do your. eyes light up when I come into the room?

Ms. Toni Morrison. Wow. So, on page 173, you write, "What. if your parents have expectations for. what you're supposed to do?". I know some of you are going through. this, but their expectations do not fit. with your encodings. What if following. the expectations of your family knocks. on everything that you actually want to. do in your life and sends you into the. fog? What if those expectations prolong. the fog so that it lasts not just years, but maybe decades or maybe even your.

entire life. Your encodings are your. encodings regardless of what your. parents or anyone else thinks they are. or should be. And the task for us first. and foremost is to trust your own. encodings. Yep. I love that. But, so many people are living their. life based upon. what somebody else's expectations are or. what they think the expectations should. be. And the question we should be asking. is, "What am I encoded for?" Yeah, and I.

think actually what's. somebody asked me, somebody who'd read. an early version of the manuscript asked. the question, "What's is more important, discovering your encodings or trusting. them?". Ooh. And the more I thought about that, cuz I. just been studying the lives, I think. what really stands out to me is I think. we're all getting clues all the time. about our encodings, right? We hit. something and it's like, "Oh, that. clicks. That feels natural." Or I feel. really drawn to do that, whether. whatever it happens to be, flying jets. or doing music, singing, um.

conversing, whatever it happens to be, right? And then there are messages, voices that, "Well, but you should be. this or you should be that." And what. really stood out to me about all the. people that I studied is when they got. those clues, and when they felt those. encodings starting to come through the. window, the really critical thing was. they trusted them. They they trusted them. >> Yeah. >> And they and they and they they didn't. know where they were necessarily. leading. >> Yeah. >> Right? It's not that they had a plan. >> Yeah. >> It's not that they could sketch out and.

say, "Well, that'll lead me here in 5. years, in 10 years, or whatever." It was. just "I have to do this. I have to solve. genetics puzzles. I'm really interested. in these computers." as Grace Hopper. was, or "I have to fly." or whatever it. is. And then even if your parents are. saying We're talking about about John. Glenn. They were initially disappointed that he. became an aviator. First of all, they. were afraid he might not survive. And. but the other is um they hoped he would. come into the family business. If he. didn't do that. >> Mhm. >> that they he might become a doctor. And. and he actually had to convince them to.

let him get his pilot's license. And. then when he decided to stay in the. Marine Corps and then go on and become a. jet fighter pilot then eventually an. astronaut his parents I think ultimately. were of course very proud of him. But. they they had a different vision for. him. But what happened is when those. encodings split up when he was in that. aircraft. he trusted them enough to basically say, "I'm hewing to the encodings.". >> Yeah. >> I'm I'm trusting them. And if somebody. were to say, "Well, what's the plan?".

>> Yeah. >> The answer might be, "I don't know what. the plan is. I don't know where it will take me. All I know is that if I trust these. >> Yeah. >> they will go someplace interesting.". >> Okay. Well, we have a couple of people. who have questions for you. >> Yes. >> Who are joining us. Matthew lives in New. York State. I hear you willingly jumped. off a. a cliff a so-called cliff, the cliffs. that we're talking about today, just. last year. Tell us what what happened. >> Yeah, so I had been with Nike for about.

15 years and decided to step down from a. role in communications that I had. And. it was an intentional decision for me to. leave and I'm grateful for the. experience. But I just felt within myself that I. knew that it was time to explore. something else. And as you've been. discussing, you know, cliffs and fogs, I'm certainly in a place right now of. kind of waiting through the fog without. the familiar conditions that really. shaped and defined my identity at my job. for so long. And while I'm really.

excited about what's ahead, I'm also. adjusting to not really having the same. structure that I think, you know, I. really grew up professionally over the. last 15 years. So, Jim, my question for. you is, you know, when you're at a. crossroads and the next chapter is not. really defined, are there tools or. disciplines that you can recommend to. stay grounded during this time of. transition? >> Yeah. Yeah, it's a wonderful question. and and. so first of all, welcome to the fog.

>> [laughter]. >> And and there's nothing wrong with you. >> heard, I was in it for a [laughter]. couple of years. >> be there for a while. Get used to it. And and you and you have brought about. your own your own cliff and you can do. that. I think that we already talked. about some of it with this notion of. taking the series of next best steps, right? This simplex stepping where I'm. just going to take the next best step, the next best step and and just. iterating through the fog. That's part. of it. It will take whatever time it. takes, but I would I would offer this. would be a great time to reflect on your.

experiences and ask, what have all your. experiences taught you about your. encodings? If you look back on so you're. in your 40s, is that right? >> Practically. >> Okay, so you've got two, three decades. of empirical experience as to and if you. kind of go back through and you were to. say, you know, if I look at these. experiences, this is what I really felt. in frame. These are the these are the. times when when the encodings like I get. if I were to picture a time of like the. encodings lit up, they were in this. experience and this experience and this.

experience and those are clues as to. what those encodings are because you've. already hit them in some way. And also. when you felt the fire at the strongest, right? And when those two go together, you're you're you want to capture those. And so part of it is again, you just. want to trust sort of it's like they're. a compass. as you simplex up through the fog of. what are those encodings. When I was. really lost in the fog in my 20s, I was. really lost in the fog of youth. I created a little thing I called the. bug book. And the idea was that I had a.

little lab notebook and I wrote my name. on the front of the lab notebook. >> You studied yourself. >> I studied myself, exactly. And I. >> You were that kind of guy. >> Exactly. And I studied myself like a. bug. And what I meant by that was I made. sort of observations. The bug named Jim. really finds meetings that go nowhere. and consume all his time really. irritating, right? Well, so I'm not. encoded for that. I was not encoded for. good political machinations. I had no. capacity to understand them and so. forth. And so but and then I noted some.

other things that happened were like. when I had to make sense of something. and teach it, bang, all [clears throat] of a sudden. everything clicked into frame. And so. this this bug book of myself as if I was. studying myself that way became kind of. my guide to iterate through to. eventually pop into frame. And the great. challenge for you is. what's the next version of being in. frame? It might be something really. different than what you did before. We. had people in our study who went from. something over here. to something over here, but they were. both in frame. >> John Glenn all the way to Congress.

>> All the way to Congress. So you just. have to find something where a big chunk. of your encodings are in frame. >> can tell you this book is going to be so. helpful to you and you're going to be so. inspired by seeing the trajectory of. other people's stories. And in your 40s, I mean, you were a baby. >> so young. >> You're so young. >> [laughter]. >> I mean, the fact that what what is so. inspiring to me about this book is that. there's so many people in their 60s and. 70s who you know, who send the circle out and then come. back and then try something new and that.

it's never never never never over. especially if you understand. what you're encoded for and you're. operating from what it is you are really. the strongest at and what you were. really meant to do and then to be and. how are you how how your life is to be. used here on the planet. That's what I. love so much about what to make of a. life. >> Can I give you one last little thing? Something we learned is that. so some of the people when they went.

through a cliff and they were really. looking at what's next. Think of it is. maybe when you were a kid. there was a seed of something that got. planted. that you never watered because your life. went a different direction. And you could water those seeds for a. whole marvelous next chapter in your. extraordinarily young life. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. All the. best. All the best. So what holds people. back from maximizing their encodings? >> Mhm. So this book really changed me in.

so many ways working on it. And. one of the things that really became. clear to me. is both in looking at others and in. looking at yourself is the power of not. judging yourself. First of all, not. judge when you're in a cliff, not judge. when you're in a fog. And and to not judge your encodings, right? They just are what they are. The. sense of. self-acceptance of I'm not I'm not going. to spend a lot of time saying, "Well,

but I should have different encodings or. I should be a different, you know, X, Y, or Z." I think that when people have. whether it's the judgment of others. or the self-judgment, I think that makes. it really hard for them to be in frame. And for me. >> in frame you mean in sync, in alignment. >> with the encodings and what feeds your. five. >> Yeah, it means in alignment with what. you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. >> Exactly. >> And the reason people so many people are. out of alignment, out of frame, is that. they're wanting to be something that.

they're not actually encoded for. >> That's right. Yeah. That's right. And I. think part of it is also you can let. your ambition drive you out of your. encodings, right? Cuz if you if you. think, well, I have to achieve this, >> Yeah. >> if it's not [clears throat] what you're. encoded for? >> Yeah, well, I want to just I well, we. have one more Zoom. Sarah. >> Oh, wonderful. >> Sarah joins us from Chicago. She's an AI. neuroscientist who I hear is feeling a. little overwhelmed. Hi, Sarah. >> Hi, Oprah. >> Hi, Jim. >> AI neuroscientist. >> I feel overwhelmed by that. >> I feel. >> [laughter].

>> I I feel overwhelmed saying AI. neuroscientist. What does that mean, you. What does that mean? >> Uh it means I'm a neuroscientist who has. built AI for 21 years now. And. essentially, I look at how the brain is. impacted by the use of generative AI and. energetic AI. So, I've been doing this a. really long time. >> And your question for us today? >> So, just some context. Uh Jim, Oprah, thank you for having me be part of the. conversation. This past year has been.

one of the most transformative seasons. of my life with many clips. I turned 40. I restarted my PhD after delaying it for. over a decade. I moved from Canada to. the US. Uh I'm helping my 15-year-old son. transition into a new high school in a. new country. And I'm on a global book. tour. This isn't the first time that I've. rebuilt. Uh earlier in my life, I. survived cancer. Um I'm sorry, Jim. I'm. getting a little emotional, but I left a. marriage uh when my son was two, and I.

raised him alone for 11 years. Then my question for you is, once you've lived through so many. transitions and one survival feels like. second nature, how do you learn to truly savor a season. that's calmer? And do you believe. everyone can do this? >> Wow. So, the savoring of the calmer I. So, first of all, are you in the calmer. mode now or are you still in the tumult. mode? >> I feel like I should be in the calmer. mode, but it's very difficult to embrace.

all these wonderful things that are. happening because there's also a lot of. change for everyone in our family. >> Yeah. So, there are these two kind of. different phases of life that we saw in. the people in the study and they're the. kind of the fog phases, the tumult. phases, the post-cliff phases. And and then there are these phases of. great clarity, right? And and what I'm. really struck by is how. they really feel very, very different in. the sense that when you're coming.

through the cliff or you're really going. through the fog, one of the questions. might be. do people flourish when they're in the. middle of that? And and actually I don't. think the answer to that is that they. do. I think when you're really in the. fog and when you're really in the in the. cliff mode, that's not a time of great. flourishing. It is it is a time of. wandering, it is a time of angst. And. it's a weird kind of struggle because. it's not like, well, I'm on a I'm on a. mountain and I know what the mountain is. and I know what it'll take to get to the. top. It's a struggle of I'm not even. really sure what mountain I'm on or.

whether I even want to be in the. mountains. And and that's a different. kind of struggle, right? And so. I I think that everyone is going to feel. in those times that they're not really. flourishing. I think that's just a. brutal fact. The thing that the study teaches me. is that people get to the other side. And it might take a really long time, but when they get to the other side, all. of a sudden it switches from lack of. clarity and befuddlement to like this. searing clarity. And when you have the. searing clarity back again, then the way. it really feels is I don't know if it's.

an interesting word, calm. It's full of energy. And a sense of movement and a sense of. sitting forward in the saddle and a. sense of like that's it's like I am now. I'm no longer bumping along. I am I am. going. But the external is propulsion, but the internal might be more calm. in the sense that it's you feel like. I've clicked back in frame, I'm calm with that.

But, my energy is incredibly. uh directed now that I'm on the other. side. And those kind of fog phases and. clarity phases really stood out. And the. same people can have a period of. great clarity followed by fog, then followed by great clarity again. There may be fog again. And they're. they're distinctly different in how they. feel. >> Are you having trouble accepting.

um. the goodness that's come into your life? Are you having trouble accepting it and. receiving it? >> I sometimes feel that. the more that I do, the more I have to. justify, you know, exciting books or. exciting. >> Yeah. >> things with TV and all sorts of. wonderful things. And I. >> What's your book? What's your book? >> It's a 100 Ways to Future-Proof Your. Brain. It's got a giant brain on it. So, it's a 100 Ways to Future-Proof Your. Brain. But, I love what Jim shared.

because I I do feel a struggle to. distinguish between the fog and the. clarity and this this pressure that I. put on myself that I need to still. justify. I still need to perform. >> Here's the one thing I'd really pass. along is you sort of don't know the. outcome of the entire life until it's. done. And and that the flavor can change. And. just I'll just share with you a personal. thing that's really changed for me. I. really relate to this notion of when. you're at a certain phase of life, I. used to describe it as having these hot.

coals in my stomach that are like these. burning fire-filled coals. They're. almost like molten lava in there. And I. think it goes back to feeling neglected. by my father and a variety of other. things. But, like need I've got to. perform, I've got to deliver, I've got. to write that incredible sense. And I always used to worry that if I. lost it, I'd lose my drive. And what's. happened, and it had I think it happened. for the people in our study over time, is the hot molten fire did go away, but the drive didn't go away. What happened was the fire changed color.

to where it is more like green and. yellow and warm glow. that I don't need that hot molten lava. in my stomach anymore. because now I just want to wake up at. 4:00 in the morning and jump out of bed. because I so look forward to getting to. do what I get to do. And what I would really hope for you is. that that molten lava of perform and. deliver and all that gets replaced by. this sense of it someday you say, "I. don't need that because the fire I have.

now. warms me from within so strongly and it. will stay till I'm out of breath.". >> I love that. >> much for that, Jim. I look forward to. that. >> I look forward to that, too. When the. fire is not molten hot, but that it's. just a warm, glowing presence that. abides with you and carries you and that. you can enjoy, you can find great. satisfaction because what happens when. you're so into the fire into the fire,

everything that's happening becomes so. intense. >> Mhm. >> that you. you aren't even able to absorb it. You're not able to absorb the book tour. and what it means to have accomplished. the writing of that book. You're not. able to absorb what it means for your. son to move to another school and that. transition because you're just going. from one the velocity is so intense that. you can't you can't take it all in. And. I will tell you that what you just. shared is a is a beautiful thing. >> We both wish that for you.

>> We really do. And I wish you great. success with your book. >> Yes. >> Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Oprah. I look. forward to being on the other side. >> Okay. [laughter] Thanks, Sheri. Good. luck to you. >> May I ask you, yes, did the color of. your fire change? >> Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm just, you. know, during the first of all, nothing. was better. Nothing was better nor will. ever replace or should the years of the. Oprah show. There will never be a time. like that again. For me and I think for. all the team members. I mean, the And.

that's what I mean by the velocity and. the intensity. And I can speak to that. because I know that so many things. happened at such an intense rate that I. don't remember half of it. I don't. remember cuz we're just sitting around. the table the other night talking with. the crew and they were saying in this. story and this story. I go, I don't. remember that. I don't remember that. Cuz I was just going at such full speed. And so now. what I have is great, pure satisfaction. from every conversation. So, I'm not.

going from this conversation to the next. conversation to the next conversation. I'm not trying to fill, you know, 200. shows a year. I'm not trying to, you. know, >> [clears throat]. >> prove anything. I don't have First of. all, you. Neither you nor I have anything left to. prove. Right. We've done it. We've, you. know, reached the pinnacle of success. and achieved and all of that. So, everything that I do now is basically an. offering to help other people see their. lives in a more meaningful way and what.

to make of their lives. That's That's. what it's all for for me. >> Yeah. And I think I think that's because. when the fire changes color and you are. at this different phase, then these. amazing things happen late and this. notion that somehow we have this peak. when we're young and then it goes like. this. >> Well, that's the thing I was saying, no. matter where you all are in your life, this book is going to be so valuable to. you because I'm so shocked at the number. of people who've done extraordinary. things. To read that Meryl Streep, well,

most of her Academy Award nominations. came after age 60. >> Yeah, she did so many of them. She was. I mean, talk about somebody who's. encoded. >> Yes. >> And has been. in frame doing this for so many years. And that was a place with her story. I I. I watched every one of her films in. sequence, which was very interesting. >> I was reading about about about her. films, I was thinking, "Gosh, you know. what? I'm going to have myself a Meryl. Streep. >> Festival. [laughter]. >> Absolutely. I'm going to have myself a. Meryl Streep festival and watch all of. those movies.

>> And and you see the evolution and you. can see at different phases of life. playing different roles. But what's so. interesting is I mean, she has more. Oscar nominations than anybody. >> By like a factor of two. >> Yes. >> And they don't stack early. They're. spread throughout and she has about half. of them after the age of. >> was was age 29. >> That's right. >> And then and then and then she gets all. the way out into her 60s and she has as. many nominations in her 60s as when she. was in her in her younger years per. decade. It's amazing and the fire hasn't.

gone out. She you can just see that it. just gets better. >> yeah, we're we're just waiting for Devil. Wears Prada, too. Yeah. Okay, so I found this to be a seminal. question that you posed on page 99. Stop. and think for a moment, you say, "What. is the relationship between work and. money?". I love this. Y'all are going to love. this. Is the purpose of work. to make money or is the purpose of money. to be able to do one's work? >> That's right.

>> Well, that depends on how we define and. think about work. I think people get. really caught up in the money thing. How. do you flip the arrow of money as you. say? >> Yeah. So, that was a like a really. critical thing for me to see was that it. wasn't about just the economics. It was. about what's direction the arrow goes. And I I there's so many different people. that illustrate this in the study. But. you know, I think about Maurice White, the founder of Earth, Wind, and Fire. And he's he's doing one meal a day.

that cost a dollar. So, a dollar a day, a meal a day while he's getting his. music going to eventually get to do. Earth, Wind, and Fire. And he didn't do music to make money, but he needed money to do music. >> Right. >> And so, he he had to do the gigs and he. had to put things in place, but then. later when Earth, Wind, and Fire was. really going. it was really interesting. He would do. these albums with the band, but then he. always took the money from that and put. it back into doing more music and more.

spectacular performances. Oh my. goodness, some of those performances. were. >> remember? >> I do. >> [laughter]. >> And and then and then putting it right. back in and then those would generate. economics to do more. And so. it's like if you understand that. money is fuel to do what you're encoded. for. that feeds the fire rather than the. point is to make money. The problem is. if the point is to make money and then. you make money, what do you do next? If the point is as we were talking.

earlier, we don't need to do any of this. for money. >> Right. Right. >> But that's but if that's not the point. anyways, you never want to stop because. >> in the years of the Oprah show, when I. first started doing that show, if they. had tell told me you were not going to. going to make any money doing this show, I would have done it. I mean. the one of the most important one. moments of my life was doing The Color. Purple. I did that for $35,000. And I remember when. my lawyer was saying, "I'm going to ask. them for 50." And I go, "No, don't ask.

them for 50. I'll do it for 35." So, I've never actually made any decision. based on money. I've never done anything. for the purpose of making money. >> actually, can I let's spend just a. moment on this because we have some. people in our study. like Robert Plant from Led Zeppelin who. just went on with his singing, doing. amazing things late in life. And and people and he turned down the. opportunity to do one of the probably. the first billion-dollar reunion tour. with Zeppelin. And he did say he did not. to do it. And people say, "Yeah, but. that's easy cuz he's already wealthy.". And what I want people to understand is.

that Robert Plant's circumstances. changed. But the reason he did what he. did was always the same. So, he started out without money, then. ended up with a lot of money, but his. motivation was always the same, which. was to sing. And so, I I I'm curious if. that's true for you, that the motivation. has always been the same. >> Motivation has always been the. >> are different. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And the fact that I was encoded to do. >> that talk show.

>> Yeah. >> I was encoded to do that. >> Yeah. >> Is what allowed me to be so successful. at it. It was as natural as breathing to. me. >> it's like Gordon Gekko. >> comfortable and the most in front of an. audience. Okay. I want to talk about. this because so many of you are going to. be able to relate to this. And And Jim. talks about in What to Make of a Life, the competent doom loop. >> [laughter]. >> I've seen this so many times during my. working career. And you write on page. 111, "One of the great traps of life.".

And see if this is you. "One of the. great traps of life is the curse of a. competence doom loop." It goes like. this. You become reasonably competent at. something that doesn't capture your. encodings. >> Mhm. >> or ignite the inner fire, but it pays. you well. >> Mhm. >> Work hard at it, become better at it, achieve a modicum of success with it. This then leads to increased. opportunities to do even more of what. does not fit your encodings or ignite. the inner fire, and you're getting paid. even more to do it. That's That's the.

loop that so many people are in that. can't get themselves out. >> Yep. I actually have a lot of compassion. for how that happens because. they may have family responsibilities. They may have a need to just provide for. others. There may be reasons for that. And so, it's not like it's a defect, but. once you get trapped in it, it's really. hard to get out of it cuz you just get. better and better paid at doing. something you're not encoded for. >> don't even like. >> Yeah. >> And one day you wake up to discover that. years or decades have passed. You're.

well-paid and out of frame. >> Yeah. >> The inner fire is still there, but. gradually going dormant. I could talk to you all day. You're the. guy to have for a dinner party. You're. the guy to have over, but I want to know. how doing this research changed you. You. do a whole list of changes, but what are. the dominant ones that you feel that. you've been changed by writing this. book? >> Well, so first of all, as you know, there's a whole list in the back of like. I used to believe this. >> I used to believe this. >> And now I believe that. And we don't.

need to repeat all those. People will. find those. But what what I really. changed was emotionally. I think one of the ways that I that I. really profoundly changed emotionally. If people have been around me, it's sort. of like I'm a stone that had really. sharp edges. And then doing this study was like water. going over that stone and softening off. the sides of those edges. And now the. stone is maybe still got some edges on. there, but it's smoother, right? It's. just a smoother stone. And what. happened? And that's like how my. emotional. sort of was like this.

>> So, you softened. >> I softened tremendously and. >> You became less judgmental of other. people and their choices in their lives. and their. >> Exactly. So, one is just the increased. sense of understanding and. not an instinct to judge people for. being in the fog, to judge people for. being in a cliff, to judge people for it. might take them a while to find their. way even when they're young, right? Some. of our people didn't come into frame. until their 30s or 40s. >> Cuz you say the fog of youth, the fog of. disappointment, the fog of regret.

>> And and the fog of retirement for those. who take that path. >> Fog of retirement. >> Yeah, exactly. And that then led to, I. guess, two things that that really One. is. I used to a lot of my life. feeling frustrated. with what people are not. And. uh uh. people around me suffered for that. People who were on my team, uh people in my life, frustrated with what they are not. And. in most egregiously frustrated they're.

not more like me, right? That's not very. helpful. And what this study taught me as I as I. began to look at these lives and you. begin to realize how different they all. are and how much there's such these. beautiful expressions of their own. encodings and what feeds their fire. And. these amazing things that they did late. in life. I mean, that's again, just one. of the biggest things that I want people. to accept that about 60, like that's. when it really goes off and then there's. big creative things happen. >> So, this notion of retiring at 65 is a. is a terrible notion. >> Oh, it doesn't doesn't fit with their. lives. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But what happened is. as I began to realize that.

the amazing thing that the people I. studied were, how they were such. marvelous expressions of their encodings. and their fire and how it played out. there. >> How they went through the cliffs and. found new versions of it if their life. changed. >> I began to look at the people in my own. life and I began to look at them. differently. I began to look at them as. instead of feeling frustrated with what. they were not, I began to be able to see. what they are. And what they're really encoded for. And. then my shift became one where it was. like instead of frustration is almost a.

sense of awe. I look at that. That person is encoded. for this. That is marvelous. That is. spectacular. That is beautiful. And and. so I shifted. from feeling frustrated with what people. are not to feeling grateful for what. people are. And I can't. even begin to describe how significant. that has been for me. >> Mhm. >> I live better that way. But the other is. for the people in my life that my basic. experience of them is I'm grateful for.

what they are. >> Instead of wanting them to be something. they can't be anyway. >> Exactly. Yes. then they flourished. >> Yeah. >> And uh and so that was huge and then the. other is. all the way back to the beginning of our. conversation, one of the biggest transformations for. me. was I understood why my father never got. out of the fog. Why my father ended up not being able to. be a father. And even though my father died many.

years ago, I was only 23 when he died. >> Mhm. >> He was 48 and I carried this. rage and anger and. by the end of this, one of the biggest. transformation for me was. I was able to forgive my father. >> For being who he was. >> For being who he was but also an. understanding of the terrible cliff. that had hit his life when he was a. young boy. And that how he didn't have the. knowledge of this book. >> Yeah. >> that would allow him to get past that.

>> So he actually lived in the fog. >> until he died. until he died. That's. right. >> As people can do. >> As people can do. >> the cliff and they never come out of it. and they stay in the fog. >> Yeah. And when I when I wrote the last. page of the book, which is about me. finally seeing my father in a different. light, I'm sitting there and I wrote. the story. and I wrote what is the last paragraph. of the book. I didn't plan it to be the. last paragraph. I just when I wrote it, I knew. >> Mhm.

>> Right there it was. I knew that's the. last sentence. And as soon as I wrote, put the period. >> on. >> I. uncontrollably broke down and I cried. for an hour. >> Jim. >> I cried for an hour cuz it was like this. decades of release. that came and I was able to. embrace my long dead father. And and I really wish I could have given. him what's in here, but I couldn't.

Right, I can't go back and give it to. him. But I understand how he ended up in the. fog and never got out. And now my main. feeling for my father is not rage, but real. compassion and deep sadness. And that has been an utterly wonderful. gift and transformation for me. When I did the audio recruit recording. of the book, when I got to that last. page, I was like, I don't think I can. get through this without crying. Like we. had like stop, pause.

But it was this huge catharsis. >> Well, I thank you for writing the book. >> Yep. >> Thank you so much for joining me here on. my front porch. >> You know, I I have to say what when when. I heard that you wanted to have a. conversation, I thought back to our time together in. Chicago and I just thought to be in your. hands as a conversationalist. and the chance to just be with you again. and that you would read my work. I'm. just so grateful. >> I told you we are we are all like.

passing it around to each other. I can't recommend this with a greater. regard. I think it's going to make a. real difference in your life. reading about other lives and also. understanding what your own encodings. are and what to make of a life is. available wherever books are sold. It's. a great guide for anybody at any age or. any stage of life. A big thanks to. Matthew and Sarah. Thanks for zooming in. with us and thank you all for listening. and watching. Go well. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.