How to Let Go after Being Let Go with Oprah and authors Laura Brown & Kristina O’Neill

I actually said to the journal manager, "Is this an April Fool's joke?" And he. goes, "No, we're taking you off of you. You we're taking you off the news." Gail. King was a production assistant at the. time. I was the 6:00 co-anchor. And I. went back downstairs and I go, "Meet me. in the bathroom now.". Okay, everybody. Hi. I'm so glad you all. are here. And I know life is busy. So, I. thank you all for spending your time. with us on the Oprah podcast where every. week we're diving into topics that we.

hear are top of mind for so many of you. watching and listening. And on this. episode, wo, we're talking about. something that is just so timely about. the seismic shift that millions of you. are facing in the job market these days. Nobody is safe. Don't care where you. are. You're not safe from the stress of. thinking you may be let go. You may be. laid off or experience a reduction in. force, riffs as your company may call. them, downsizing, restructuring, reorgs, all the corporate buzzwords and.

euphemisms that um you know people use. But let's face it, no matter what it's. called, what it feels like is getting. fired. And for women, it it just hits. differently. And often times it feels. like shame. And this is a really. important conversation that rarely gets. attention. And so I'm so happy to. welcome to the tea house the authors of. a new book working women Need Right Now. It's called All the Cool Girls Get. Fired. All the cool girls get Fired.

When you say it, you have to say it like. that. >> All the cool girls get fired. >> Powerhouse executives Laura Brown and. Christina O'Neal have decades of. experience in fashion and media. The two. friends spent 10 years working together. at Harper's Bazaar. Christina then rose. to editor-inchief of the Wall Street. Journal magazine. Later, Laura became. editor-inchief of InStyle magazine. In.

2022, Laura was stunned when she was. asked to step down. 14 months later, Christina was also let go. >> 10 minutes before the meeting changed. from her office to the HR room. So I. knew instantly after 10 years my time. was up. >> While out for a drink to commiscerate, Laura and Christina posted a photo on. Laura's Instagram with the caption, "All. the coolest girls get fired.". >> We posted it that night because and. there was no second guessing. There was.

no ambiguity because it was like we were. great at our jobs. We got fired. >> Their post hit a nerve and inspired them. to write a book. >> It was this deluge immediately from. women going, "Oh, wow. You said it. Oh, me too. >> All the cool girls get fired is a road. map for rebuilding your career and. figuring out who you really are without. your job title. >> In all my time at CNN, I would make. phone calls and be CNN's Brook Baldwin. And then all of a sudden, record. scratch. I'm just making a phone call.

and I'm just Brooke. And I had to have a. real sort of come to Jesus with who that. person is. >> Laura Brown, >> hello. Thank you for having us. and. Christina O'Neal. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> So, I want to start by hearing what. happened to you cool girls, to each of. you. You were at different popular. magazines, but both of you were at the. peaks of your careers. You had the. titles. And what happened?

>> Do you want to go chronologically? Cuz I. was, not to brag, I was first. Um, yes. I ran InStyle magazine and uh all the. way through co, you know, it was a. really challenging time. um as an. editor, we worked for three different. companies during the time at the same. magazine. You were on our cover uh seven. years ago and um in early 2022, I got a. call from my immediate boss. Um and I. was like, "Hi." And it was also I was. also an HR professional on the phone and. I was given 20 minutes notice that in. the Instyle print side is what they.

refer to it was being shut down. So 20. minutes later, myself and my entire team. were on a Zoom call. they call like an. all hands meeting. >> and we were laid off on Zoom and that. was that and it was like okay you're. going to get your paperwork you're going. to get your HR contacts roll up your. your stuff and and you're done. >> Had you had any warning any signs before. >> I mean I think yes I think that well I. was a bit head out the window. I was. looking to do my own thing but yes my. managing editor one day said Laura we. don't have a budget.

Um, but I was no I was like cuz we'd. been through so much change and coming. through co and all of those huge seismic. cultural things. We'd been rolling with. things so much. So this just seemed like. another thing to roll with and um and. our rolling stopped on that morning when. we were all um laid off and immediately. after that we all just got back on. What. always is a sign is if HR is on the call. >> with HR if an HR professional is on the. call because there there's always a. script. Yeah. You know, and uh because. they've got to do all the legal stuff. and the language has to be correct. And.

so we got through that. But yeah, I sort. of got everybody back on a Zoom. >> right after. And I was like, okay, what. are we going to do? What are we going to. do? Cuz it was 35 people. >> 35 people. Christina, how about you? >> I was one of one. >> One of one. >> One of one. >> special. Um, there was a regime change. at the top of the mast head at the Wall. Street Journal at the beginning of 2023. The editor-inchief of the newspaper was. replaced, who was my direct boss, and. the new woman who came in, you know, started in February, February went by, uh, March went by, and I couldn't get a.

meeting with her. So, in late April, I. finally got the meeting. Um, 10 minutes. before the meeting changed from her. office to the HR room. >> Whoa. Oh, >> so I knew instantly that instantly after. 10 years, you know, my time was up. >> But you hadn't had any indication. before. So the fact that you're going to. HR, would you think I would I would. think, well, this isn't about me. This. must be about somebody else. Yes. >> I had powerpoints, I had print outs, I.

was ready, you know, I was ready to. knock her socks off. Um, but, you know, unfortunately, I think her uh message to. me was that, you know, she wanted to go. into a different direction. >> Yeah. And then she didn't she say that. you can, you know, help create your own. narrative. >> Yeah. >> And you said, >> "No, we are going to go and tell my team. that you're firing me.". >> And I don't know how I had the. wherewithal in that moment in that room, but I knew if I had to add a layer of. complexity to the situation when I was.

>> like shaping the story. >> Yeah. If I had to if I had to carry a. lie in addition to carrying the shock. and the you know devastation. >> um I would never get through it. >> Yeah. I think it's so good that you're. using those words that a lot of women. use throughout all the cool girls get. fired. Uh it's shock at first and. devastation. >> Yeah. >> Cuz I'll tell you all my story later. My. story is in this book. But I remember. leaving the general manager's office. being told and I was just kind of numb.

there is a kind of you are in a in a. state of disbelief. So tell us uh Laura. how the book title and the idea of this. book came about. >> and it came as what Christina was. mentioning from ownership from owning. what happened to us and being being. straight. >> title. Let me remind you all the cool. girls get fired. So, as um cool girls do. when they get fired or if they're into. this, they tend to go to a bar and um. and um I have was I just come back from. a trip to South Africa and Christina had.

been fired and she'd actually texted me. when I was in South Africa being getting. handed. >> from under the table in the HR room. >> Really? Yes. >> Yeah. >> And so I I arrived back from South. Africa. I was like, I've got to see my. friend. And um and so we went uh we went. to meet at a at a bar. >> Just remind us how long had this. happened to her? How long had it been. since. >> 14 months between? >> Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. >> So, I was February 2022 and you were end. of April. >> 23. >> Okay. >> So, on the way down to the bar, I texted. Chrissy and her and I was I was like, "Here's what we're going to do." And.

he's like, >> "Yeah, >> yes, that's our relationship basically.". And um and I said, "We're going to take. a picture for Instagram. We're going to. look super cute and we're captioning it. All the cool girls get fired.". >> And she went, >> "Okay." And we did it. And we posted it. that night because and there was no. second guessing. There was no ambiguity. because it was like we were great at our. jobs. We got fired. This happened. This. is honesty and this is ownership. And so. we flung it out on the internet. And. there was this deluge immediately from.

women going, "Oh, wow. You said it. Oh, me too. Oh, oh, damn." Like there's kind. of almost like this psychological door. opening. >> with women that we we said. And. honestly, there was some ego in it, too. It was like we are good. We are good at. what we do. this happen, it will happen. to you. It may It's happening to. everyone right now. We're going to own. it. It's actually also the easiest way. out because it cuts short all of this. spin and narrative that so many women. feel like they still have to do. >> Then you all decided, you decided then.

with the drinks. >> Oh yeah. The next morning, it was the. next morning to our mutual bathrooms. >> Yeah. So I was, you know, hurriedly. getting ready and I called Laura and I. said, "This is a book." I knew instantly. that this was the messaging that we. needed to put out into the world. Um, also I think at that point Laura was. probably sick of me asking her. questions. You know, there's so much you. don't know when you get fired. You know, I I didn't know how to navigate Cobra. I. didn't know if I needed a lawyer and. then if I had a lawyer were, you know,

was I paying them, you know, the right. amount. Like all these things that sort. of, you know, present themselves when. you're suddenly let go. So, we thought. it was so important to, you know, combine that service element with the. with the stories of the women who we had. seen kind of immediately respond on. Instagram. >> So, I think it's so it's so smart what. these women did. They have chapters with. experts who offer practical step-by-step. advice on what to do and what not to do. once you're fired. It's just invaluable.

information that nobody ever tells you. So, what do you want to say about that, Christina? Well, it's the book we wish. we had. You know, >> it's a book I wish I had. >> I thought, "Wow, if there had been this. book, >> yeah, >> I wouldn't have felt so alone.". >> But in addition to all the emotions, you're sitting there googling like 101. stuff that. >> thankfully, you know, now is exists in. one place. But that was really what we. felt like was missing and that. inspiration, those women talking about.

what they had been through and that. opportunity to hopefully fire up some. dreams. And then you also have these. personal interviews with women you call. badass who've been fired at one time or. thanks I'm one of the bad asses but. others Lisa Kudro and uh Tana Burke and. Jamie Lee Curtis and Katie Kurrick to. name just a few. Why did you want to. incorporate other women besides. yourselves because your stories are. strong. It was very deliberate because. when you're alone and on that couch and. you've lost your job and you don't know.

where your money's coming from or you. don't know if you have healthcare. anymore and you're staring at your bank. balance and you're maybe picking up a. glass of wine or you're just staring at. the window. >> Whether you have guess breaking news, it's easier in life to have more. resources than less. But when you're. fired from whatever context it is, you. all feel the same. You feel. >> terrible. And so the important thing was. to remind everyone, we specifically. chose high-profile, extremely. successful, well-known women for this. book because these women, including. yourself, felt like that. When you were.

fired, you weren't here. You didn't have. a rose garden, you know, and and all of. these women, none of these women did. So. they were there on the couch. They were. crying. They felt alone. And look at. them now. So. >> even if you have a rose garden, you're. still going to feel pretty bad. >> Exactly. It's just not part of the. legends that are told about women, right? It's part of the lore that Steve. Jobs got fired. It's part of Mike. Bloomberg's narrative. >> that he was let go from Solomon. Brothers. >> There aren't that many women out there.

>> who have acknowledged a setback that. unlocked what came next for them. And we. need to change that. We need to have. more conversations with women so that. other women, you know, can sort of see. the I mean, >> that's why we're so happy you're in the. book. >> Well, this is the thing. Why is it that. men seem to or maybe they're just hiding. behind it, too, but they seem to be able. to move on because I think I love one of. the quotes in the book. Men are expected. to be brave, but women are expected to.

be perfect. >> Yeah, that's who says that. Yeah. Men. are expected to be brave, but women are. expected to be perfect. And because of. that, women carry more shame with the. firings. Yeah. Than men do. Men just. seem to. >> pick themselves up and keep moving on. >> Well, also remember that the workplace. in itself is a male construct. >> You know, men started working before we. did, we only got the vote 100 years ago. >> Yes. >> So, you know, when when we one of our HR. experts said, we were like, why does it. hit harder?

>> And and she said because it took us. longer to get there generationally. we. do carry that when we got up that this. little rung and we're pushed off that we. hit it's it hits more harder and that's. again part of the book is like if you. own it and you have a little bit of I. don't know be male be whatever the. whatever that thing is the sooner you. own it the sooner we change this culture. we want more women to put up their hands. we would have done double the amount of. stories in this book but people still. women we know are still spinning it and. it's like enough it does no one any good. >> well I think too when you have public.

jobs. >> that everyone one else knows. And also. when you have jobs like yourselves, you. get that editor-inchief title. You've. worked for whatever that means and all. that that means to the rest of the. world. And you feel that there's a sense. of embarrassment. I know for me because. for me it was being on the evening news. and having had this is when I was 22 and. having had so much promotion about it. >> that you know everybody in town was like.

well who is this girl coming to. Baltimore and then I end up being a year. later less than a year later removed. from the evening news and as I was. saying when I got called up it was on. April Fool's Day so it was April 1st. yeah and I thought oh this is an April. Fool's joke I actually said to the. journal manager is this an April Fool's. joke and he goes No, we're taking you. off of you. You were we're taking you. off the news. Gail King was a production. assistant at the time. I was the six. o'clock co-anchor. And I went back.

downstairs and I go, "Meet me in the. bathroom now." And I told her that I've. just been taken off the 6:00 news, but I. still have to do the 6:00 news. And the. embarrassment of everybody knowing it I. think is very much like having to go. back in the office when you have been. the manager director you've been or not. and everybody knowing it. >> Oh it's reputational. I mean everyone. has different levels of where the stress. comes from. Financial health.

reputational everyone tan talks about. that you know there's certain whatever. industry you're in there is sometimes. there's status that comes with that. There's relationships that comes with. that that come with that. There's. comfort that comes with that. There's. rituals that come with that. And you are. yanked out of those. You are like a. beetle on its back. And that's an. absolutely normal feeling. >> Yeah. >> But one of the things, you know, I think. that was consistent across the reporting. that we did for the book was the fact. that women think they're wearing a. sweater with a scarlet F on it. >> Yeah. >> Is mostly in their head.

>> Mhm. >> And they have created that shame. They. have put the shame upon themselves. That's right. >> Yeah. >> And the sooner you're able to shake the. shame and take off the, you know, metaphorical sweater and stop thinking. that everyone in the room is talking. about you when you walk in or they're. talking about you behind your back, they're not, >> you know, they're not. And the sooner. you can shake that, you can move on and. reach out to people about other. opportunities. >> Yeah. Well, the other thing is I. remember when it happened to me at 22.

because there had been so much publicity. about me coming to Baltimore and doing. the evening news and I had a co-anchor. who didn't want me there and all all of. that stuff that I walked into that I. didn't know. >> I felt shame and embarrassed. by it. I was embarrassed by it and I. also felt like a failure. I felt like I. had failed at this thing that I had come. to do, >> which eventually turned out to be okay. because they put me on a talk show and. that was really where I.

>> Touche Touche. >> But something you said ear earlier, Laura, you said we knew we were good at. our jobs. >> Yes. >> You know, and we're left to feel like. there's something you did that was. inadequate. It's very different when you. feel like you're you're being blamed for. being inadequate and you fail then you. know something happened in the company. I was great at my job and we're no. longer do you do you see a difference? >> Yes, there's a absolutely a difference. but there's also a difference in. numbers. So if you feel like you know.

especially the doge layoffs and we were. just reading about all the college. educated people now who have you know. lost jobs and um you do it is you know. harder to control but there is so many. more of you unfortunately in this in so. what you do have while you have this. terrible feeling you do have you. actually do have a community. >> Yes. >> Because there's thousands of people who. lost their jobs at the same time as you. So try not to to wear it on yourself cuz. sadly you don't have the exclusive on. it. >> Right. You know, >> right? I think so many of you will. relate to this passage. If you're not.

confident in your position, you don't. know where you stand day or worse, if. you're even valued. Well, get out of. there, sister. Leave them before they. leave you. Oh, and forget that quiet. quitting thing nonsense. Why would you. want to passively prolong a situation. that is chipping away at you every day? Christina, you say you fantasized about. firing yourself, right? But you never. had the courage to do it. How do you. know when it's time to leave? >> Yeah. Well, read the room. Um,

>> vibes are off. >> Yeah. Are the vibes off? Um, you know, I. think if you dread going to work, that's. a pretty telling sign. If you know. you're having sleepless nights, if. you're wow, >> you know, sitting there sort of, you. know, wishing Friday came sooner, you. know, I think all of that is very, you. know, your body tells you before maybe. your mind catches up. >> So, you know, I think if you're in a. situation like that, protect yourself. Also, there's so many things that people.

can do even if they love their jobs. But. there were things that I hadn't done in. 10 years. I hadn't updated my resume. I. had not gone on LinkedIn. I hadn't. download a single contact or backed up. an email. So when this happened to me, I. felt like the triage that needed to be. done just to sort of save the like. simple things that you could be doing. along the way. >> to sort of put yourself in a better. place. You know, if I had done some of. those things, maybe I would have felt a. little more confident in the next step. >> You all know Brooke Baldwin. She was a.

high-profile CNN news anchor for more. than a decade with her own show. It was. her dream job since she was a little. girl and then she was fired in 2021. This year, Brooke gave a TEDex talk. titled, "Getting fired from my dream job. taught me about truth and wrote an essay. for Vanity Fair titled Leaving CNN was. how I found my voice." So, hi, Brooke. Good to see you. >> Hi, everyone. I needed this book four. years ago. >> I need four years ago. >> Uh, you you described getting fired as.

an unraveling, but in a good way. How. so? Let's talk about that. >> I mean, at the time, not so much. And. I'm listening to all of y'all and I'm. like, there was no HR involved in mine. I was like, does anyone want an exit. interview? No. No. Okay. I can't tell. the truth as to why I'm actually. leaving. No. Okay. That was so so hard. And my bar was three weeks in the. British Virgin Islands drinking a lot of. Dark and Stormies. That said, that said, after I wiped, you know, my tears and. had wiser friends say to me, Brooke,

like, this is this is a gift. This is a. gift. And I was like, I don't know what. you're talking about. You know, ultimately I realized this was the. beginning of my unraveling. Like Oprah, you say this and it's so right on. It's. like the universe comes and first it's. the whisper and we don't really always. we're like, I don't want to hear. I. don't want to hear. And then comes the. knock and we're like, I don't want to. know who's on the other side of the. door. And then, as I put it, like the. frying pan to the forehead. Yeah. And I. got the frying pan and I only now know.

that I needed it that I had veered so. totally off my path and I needed to come. home to myself which is exactly what. I've been doing. >> Wow. But did you know why at the time. you were being fired and was it a. surprise? >> It was a total surprise. You know like. who I think it was Laura who said I had. sort of one foot out the door. I knew I. wasn't in full alignment. I knew that, you know, I was into covering stories, using my humanity, my authenticity, and. I think the currency more and more in. cable news was around being pugilistic.

and interviewing people and having these. cable news food fights and it just. wasn't my jam. There are people way. better at that than me. And so one day I. got a call, you know, and that was my. version of April Fool's Day. And to this. day, I have no I I have no idea. I got. fired without cause. I have that on. paper. And that was part of the hardest. part. It's like, you know, I had this. proceverating like I'm a good person. I'm a good person. I'm a good person. Like, how how did this happen? Why did. this happen, but it needed to happen and. I know that now.

>> How did it affect your self-identity? You know, I think particularly people. who are in high-profile jobs that other. people recognize as high-profile jobs. >> Yeah. >> You you lose yourself in that job. you. lose yourself in the identity of what. you do. So, how did it affect how you. saw yourself? I I've also heard this. from other women who aren't in. high-profile jobs. You become the I and. I know you all talked to lots of people. So, I want your thoughts on that and.

then your thoughts on that. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean my identity was. inextricably linked with those three. little letters. Like in all my, you. know, time at CNN, I would make phone. calls and be, you know, CNN's Brooke. Baldwin. I'm CNN. This is Brooke calling. from CNN. And then all of a sudden, like, you know, record scratch. >> I'm just making a phone call and I'm I'm. just Brooke. Who's just Brooke? >> And. >> yeah, >> and and I had to have a real sort of. come to Jesus with who that person is. But, you know, to to all of y'all's.

point, I have in and in in coming home. to myself, I literally get down on my. knees and pray all all the time. It it. helped me free myself to now figure out. ah who does who is just Brooke and what. does just Brooke now want to do? >> Yeah. >> Did a lot of people talk about. selfidentity? >> Yeah. I mean I mean you know it's an. easy thing to do if you enjoy what you. do and you're passionate about what you. do. You do place some of your value in. in what you do. But that's the dangerous. part if it becomes all all of your. value. And you know it's it's an easy.

thing to say don't do it. But we all do. it. Especially you know in any business. again there's status, there's comfort, there's all of these things. was my life. >> It was my life. I know. And that's and. similar to you, Brooke. It was my That's. all I did. I went to work. >> I did work and then I got up and went to. work again. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and I think that it's a very. seductive thing obviously and it's a. very rewarding thing, but you have to. just peek around it a bit, you know, just to remind yourself that there is. something else out there to keep. something else going on in your life,

your friends, your family, some other. thing that just broadens you as a. person. So when this happens, you're not. totally laid laid out. You know what I. mean? And that's what's really really. hard though. >> Yeah. Christina. >> Yeah. And I think we live in an. interesting time where the types of jobs. that people are able to create when they. walk away from something as monumental. as what you had built and what Brook's. role on CNN was. >> There's so many more opportunities out. there than they there were when we were. coming up, right? And I think it's been. really exciting to sort of see people.

who lose their jobs create new. opportunities to start working for. themselves. You know, there's the. landscape has changed so dramatically. even in the three two and a half years. since we left our positions. And I think. that's such a good reminder that you can. create something new out of the ashes. >> Yeah. I love what Brooke said too about. coming home to herself. I think no. matter who you are, no matter who you. are. >> when it happens, you have to give. yourself room to be still.

>> Have the drinks, go out and do the. drinks, lay on the sofa, lay on the. sofa, do the tears, all of that, but be. still enough to come back home to. because it is a resetting for yourself. No matter who you are, I think it's a. resetting. >> It is. And honestly, I mean, my husband. made you came up with this. because of. the Johnny Apple Seed rule where. basically like you don't know this, but. in any career you're in, if you're a. nice person and you've worked hard, you're actually throwing seeds around. >> Yeah. >> You know, all the time unwittingly. And. then when you need it, you'll look.

around and there's a little orchard for. you cuz you've created this world for. yourself. And we had. >> people will show up for you. Don't be. shy. Ask them. If you've done good work. and you have good relationships, people. will show up for you. And don't isolate. yourself and open yourself up to that. cuz you're reminded of who you are and. not what your job was. Absolutely. Brooke, what do you want to say to. anyone listening about how you. recovered, what didn't work, what did. >> you know? I think one of the things um. that was actually the hardest part was I. really had to get to know my younger.

self. Like we had to get in, we had to. be in deep conversation, you know, because when I was graduating college. and all my girlfriends were living in a. big city and living these, you know, Sex. in the City exciting lives, I was moving. to small town America. You know, I'm. rolling the teleprompter under the desk. with my foot. I'm covering water skiing. squirrels. I'm working all the graveyard. graveyard shifts. You know, I I dated. the wrong guys. I put off having kids. Like, my eggs are still frozen. And so, I had to really I had to tell her, you. like talk to your younger self. She's.

not disappointed in you. You know, you're going to make her proud. Just. watch. Just watch and wait and have. faith. And speaking of the drinking, I. I'll end with this. I quit. You know, for the first time in my life, I. realized, gosh, with all this change. happening for me, I I felt myself. starting to reach a numb in a way that I. felt was unhealthy. And I feel fortunate. that I could just quit cold turkey like. that. But I like Clarity is a gift. That's where I am. >> Clarity is your gift.

>> Yeah. Agree. >> And it takes time to get there. >> It does. >> It does. Years. >> It does. Well, thanks, Brooks. Good to. see you. Good to see you. Thriving, flourishing. Good to see you. Adena. Presley is a single mom of two daughters. and for 34 years she was vice president. at a well-known financial group and last. year she was laid off due to largescale. downsizing. And Adena, I hear you relate. to the shame piece, but now you're.

feeling better about it. Excited, right? >> I'm feeling so excited about it. And you. know, I'm sitting back here. So now you. belong to the Now you belong to all the. cool girls. >> I'm a cool girl. >> One of the cool girls. >> High five. >> High five. >> That's right. High five. I'm such a cool. girl. Um as I'm sitting here and I'm. listening to um Christina and Laura and. even Brooke. I'm sitting here and I'm. just like, "Oh my god, yes, that was me. Every single thing that they spoke about. happened to me." And um I think what I. really wanted to let people know is,

yeah, it's okay to be a cool girl and. get fired. it's okay for you to say, you. know what, I don't want to work for. anybody else anymore. I want to work for. myself, you know, and I looked at it as, you know what, you guys actually did me. a favor. You put a battery in my back. and you gave me the confidence to say, I. can do this and I can do this on my own. So, I am loving it. I have to be honest, when I first got the call, um, I didn't. say that I was let go. And I think the.

reason why I didn't, it wasn't so much. shame. It was so much um like I'm not. going to let your bad decisions or your, you know, the um the decisions you made. with regards to business and that you. had to downsize diminish the work that I. did. You know, I was successful at what. I did. I was good at what I did and. yeah, I was a cool girl where I was. So, um I was not going to let that define. me. So, >> yeah, >> that's where I'm at right now. >> So, but did you grieve in the beginning? Was there some grief for you about the.

job that was or did you immediately go. into I'm going to do something on my. own? >> Well, first of all, I think like um. Laura had mentioned, I kind of knew it. was coming because 15 minutes before the. um virtual meeting, I saw that it was my. boss and the HR professional. So, the. writing was. >> Oh my god, >> it's so cliche. I mean, that's the most. like, >> oh my god, >> we're all in the same boat. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yes. So, I I knew it was coming. And. when they, you know, when you finally.

hear the words, I sat there for a second. and I literally closed my laptop and I. said, "Wow, that wasn't so bad. I feel. like like a ton of bricks is is lifted. up off of my chest because like. Christina, um you know, in my role, I. was starting to become discouraged. I. was starting to become um you know, I. couldn't even motivate my team. you. know, it was a struggle for me because I. didn't like the direction that the. company was going in. I didn't like the. decisions that they were making. Um, you.

know, I saw the cutbacks that was coming. and to be honest with you, um, I was. actually shocked. So my question is um. and this could be for either one of you. ladies. What advice would you give women. especially those like me who's further. along in their career um because I'm 54. um and um we have to reinvent ourselves. and start over you know like what advice. would you give with regards to that? >> Well I was inspired to hear that you're. working for yourself and I think that. that is such a good reminder that.

everything you built didn't evaporate. when your job did. >> Oh that's good. and that you're able to. take it with you and put it to work for. yourself. And I think that so many. people get shocked into, you know, discouragement and can't see, you know, an opportunity. And I think. it's really impressive that you were. able to sort of see the forest from the. trees and, you know, came and put. something together for yourself. >> Yes. You've built a platform of your own.

skills and and and history and it. doesn't disappear if you lose your job. you stand on that and you should feel. tall and not make yourself small. Uh. number the second thing I would say is. one of our experts mentioned this when. this happens to you and you are in shock. but uh but he said um look at take a. beat and we all have a beat you know to. what made made you more happy and less. happy over the course of your career. So, what can you do to increase the. happiness and decrease the unhappiness? And we call it math for your dreams.

Like, take that moment and there's just. and any job we've had, we're like, "Okay, this is fine. This is fine. I've. got it. Sort of. I've got" and there's a. little hopefully a bit of curiosity or a. bit of a um attention to change or a bit. of a passion that's been lying in you. that you haven't explored because you've. been in this job. You know, the job that. you're in sometimes is like a sand pit. You know, when you go to the same sand. pit every day, you know, everyone there. Hi, Jimmy. >> Yeah. Hi, Johnny. Hi, Jimmy. you and you. know the sand pit. You know the sand pit. and you go there. Maybe the sand pit's a. little dirtier but you still know it. And then something happens when you're. fired. You're like there was a beach the.

entire time I've been sitting in this. sand pit. There's a whole beach out. there. I didn't notice. >> Yeah. >> That's the beach and that's what you. look at as a as especially we're all in. our 50s. You know. >> we have that experience and that ability. to look at that beach and follow that. passion. You've done that by working for. yourself. So bravo. And experience. doesn't doesn't go away. Experience. becomes that's the the thing that you. bring with you. >> Yeah, I absolutely believe that. One of. the things I said in uh uh all the cool.

girls get fired is that when I was. telling my story about, you know, being. taken off the 6:00 news is that the. bounce back is even greater. However far. down you are taken, the bounce back. comes back even greater because it gives. you a moment to reassess. as Brooke was. saying, to come home to yourself, >> which is exactly how I felt the very. first day I did my first talk show. interview. And I felt like, oh, this is.

why that happened. This is what I was. supposed to do. And now that's exactly. where you are, Dena. Congratulations, actually. >> Thank you so much. >> Congratulations on the setback was a. setup, girl. >> Set back was a setup. Thank you. Uh you. all write that getting fired can. actually be a wakeup call that it's. actually a wakeup call and you say that. if one's identity is tied to that job. then it's time to reset. >> Exactly. >> So what do you want to say to women.

about resetting boundaries at work? >> Yeah. I mean, listen, it's so tempting. to answer the emails at 8, 9:00 at night. or on the weekend, and. >> it's very tempting to kind of only, you. know, hang out with friends that you met. in the office. >> Um, you know, but I think with time and. age and perspective, you know, I have. learned, you know, going into my new. job, you have to set boundaries. You. have to create passions and interests.

outside of the day job. And those are. the things that that remain when when. the job doesn't. You you have work. friends and then you have real friends. and you have to have those you have to. be able to make a distinction. And I. think too many people get wrapped up in. >> you lose your you lose your lose the. line, lose the boundaries. You've given. it all. Yes. >> Yeah. Keep your eye on the horizon. I. think you know and and that what what. you're in right now is what you're in. right now. But if you are there's I mean. look at the change that we're all just.

facing as a country every single day. You know, it's it's like Christina said, read the room in your workplace. Read. the room in the world, >> you know, and and and be aware of what's. happening in in your business, what's. happening around you, and just there's. there's strength in that. There's. strength in that for when something does. happen that you feel that you have some. power. And that's really key, I think, is just like that's so there's your job. and here's the world. And just keep your. eye on the bigger picture. >> Well, you end the book with a collection. of epiphies. In one you write, "What. you've experienced hopefully is a.

capital R revelation. You have options. you never knew you had in worlds you. never explored. Working with people you. really respect and hopefully you're not. only inspired, you are prepared.". What do you most want all the cool girls. who are watching us right now, listening. to us, to know about getting fired? It's not the end. >> Yeah, >> it is the beginning. It can sound.

tright, but we promise you, even if. you're shocked into this moment, >> sit with it. Rest. Don't rest. You know, rest, but don't retreat and open your. eyes up to what's out there. And we. promise you the reward is out there and. be more on your own terms. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, echoing that. I mean, we. wouldn't be here if we hadn't been. fired. Um, you know, we kind of joke. that we're now the poster girls for. getting fired, but we really, you know, we're proud of that. And I think. starting the conversation, reach out to.

people, let them know what you're going. through, let them lift you up. You have. to let people know you want to be lifted. and carried. And I think that that is so. important and was such a reminder how. many people reached out to us in the. moments that it happened. It was so. refreshing and so rewarding to have that. network and, you know, just a reminder. to everyone who's going through it, just. keep your head up, you know, stay. positive and, you know, do some math for.

your dreams. >> I go back to the fact that when your. boss said, uh, you know, I'm going to. let you create your own narrative. You're like, no, I want to tell people. the truth that I've been fired. And I. think one of the things you all have. done with this book, All the Cool Girls. Getting Fired. I mean, listen, I hope. that it's a best best best best best. bestseller and that it gets normalized. that we can say the words out loud. There's no shame, no blame, no, you. know, grief and sorrow attached to that.

that it's like it's a fact of life. And. now I'm going to reset and use that set. back to set myself up for something even. more attuned to what I really want to. do. I mean, I think it's a it's a it's a. wakeup call and it's also a growth. spurt. >> It's such a growth spurt. I mean, I've. had, you know, uh, literally women. coming up to me in the street saying, "Is when's a book I need? Oh, I got. fired." Or, "Here's my friend. She got. fired." And they're having drinks in a. restaurant, whatever. And I just go, >> "You are so cool." And just that moment.

of like there's a community for you, there's no shame. You see the faces. change, you know, women light up. And. it's like, let's flip this. Let's get a. bit of bravado. Let's get a bit of. ownership and let's move on and let's. change the culture. >> Oh, I love that you've done this. Thank. you Mar Brown and Christina O'Neal. Their inspiring new book, All the Cool. Girls Get Fired, is available wherever. books are sold. And thank you, Brooke. Baldwin and Adena for sharing your. stories. Listeners, thank you for your. valuable time. Let's meet up again next.

week. Go well everybody. You can subscribe to the Over Podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcast, or wherever you listen. I'll. see you next week. Thanks everybody.