What If Your Greatest Adversity Has a Purpose?

This book is so truthful and resonates. so powerfully. This is going to be one. of those books you keep by your bedside. forever. >> He has helped me understand our greatest. devastations can become our greatest. strengths. Right now, I'm kind of in the. it's not fair phase. Why me? >> Everything that happens to you, especially the worst things that happen. to you, are there for a reason. And then. you can use those things to help you. transform yourself.

>> Hi there and a warm welcome to you all. Thanks for being here with me on the. Oprah podcast. Uh while I was getting. ready for this episode, I read this. statistic that dementia is right up. there with cancer as the most feared. medical condition. And I have to say. that doesn't surprise me. And I'm sure. it doesn't surprise many of you who are. listening or watching because there's no. cure. And.

many of us see the devastation that. patients endure. The the loss of. independence, the of course the loss of. memories and the loss of this is the. thing I think most people fear is the. loss of your very self. And when my next guest was diagnosed. with Louisbody dementia, he was told that it will ravage his. brain. He will lose his mobility. He may.

display bizarre behavior. He may even. endure terrifying hallucinations. He suffered through many dark nights of. the soul. Cuz can you imagine being told. that? and he suffered before he began to. see his fate as a blessing. And so when. I first heard that, I was like, I just. the worst diagnosis you could possibly. receive. I don't know how anybody could. see that as a blessing. And of course, I.

wanted to talk to anybody who could see. that a blessing as a blessing. And that. anybody is here today. I know that may. be hard for you all to believe. So I. wanted to learn too how he got to this. place. He's a renowned psychotherapist. and best-selling author. Barry Michaels. is here to share with all of us how he. became. fully alive in the face of dire. adversity. He says that we all can, you can, I can,

and it doesn't take us a crisis to get. there. and his new book chronicling his. path from diagnosis to acceptance is. just extraordinary when I tell you this. is a book you're going to want for. yourself and you absolutely want to gift. it to anybody who. loves life is going through a trial has. been through a trial or just appreciates.

being human it's it's extraordinary it's. called a head of all parting Barry thank. Thank you for being here. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> That's just the worst diagnosis I think. anybody could ever receive. I think a. lot of people fear cancer, but even in. fearing cancer, you know, there may be a. cure. They may there may be even after. you've tried all the things I have a. family member going through it now. you're there's a clinical trial you know. so there's some glimmer of hope but a.

diagnosis like that. >> and also with cancer your consciousness. remains intact you are still yourself. >> yes. >> the thing about louisi buddy dementia. and any other form of dementia is you. begin to lose what defines you as you. >> yeah or what you thought. >> or at least what you defines you. So, let's begin with how how are you today? When I when I was reading this, I was. like, well, will I even be able to talk. to you? Because, you know, had it. progressed to a point where you wouldn't.

even be able to have a conversation. So, how are you? >> I'm all right. I, you know, I have good. days and bad days. This is about a sort. of a medium day. Um, >> and what does that mean? >> What it means is that my brain isn't as. sharp as I'm used to it being. Um, I may. fumble a little bit with answers. I. might not remember parts of the book. that I should remember, >> but I'm not completely fogged out or. completely, you know, disoriented or or. anything like that.

>> So, a bad day would have you completely. fogged out. >> I, you know, that's a bit of an. exaggeration. I wouldn't say that I ever. get to that point, but I I do have days. where I feel like. >> I really shouldn't do psychotherapy. today cuz I'm not really going to be. helpful to the person. >> Bray Michaels is a Los Angeles-based. psychotherapist. He and his longtime collaborator Phil. Stutz co-wrote the New York Times. bestseller, The Tools. Their work uses.

mental exercises with names like active. love, grateful flow, and loss. processing. These tools help people. confront psychological obstacles and. transform them into growth. opportunities. >> So, you're still working with patients? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's still going well. I mean, I'm still doing a good job. I can tell. that I'm being effective. Um, you know, it's just so.

it's so strange because there are times. when I wake up in the morning and feel. like my brain is literally filled with. fog and then I'll I'll take a run or. I'll get some exercise and I'll write. some poetry and I'll get back to my. office and I'll see my first person and. the moment I see them on the Zoom screen. or they're in person, I'm there. I'm. right back. So, it's it's very variable. And I think one of the reasons I'm still.

practicing is that I recognize that when. I'm forced to, I show up and I show up. really well. Uh, which is good for me. and it's good for them. So, do you think. then that had you not had. the opportunity or the challenge of. being forced to show up that this could. have progressed even more because you. wouldn't have had a reason to show up? >> Exactly. I think if people had coddled. me or if I had coddled myself,

I would have deteriorated a lot more. quickly. Well, I have to tell you in my. ignorance I I had not heard of Louis. body dementia and only after reading. ahead of all parting did I recognize as. I know many of you will that apparently. this is what Robin Williams also had. suffered from. Yeah. >> Yes. He didn't know he was undiagnosed. which is we we don't know for sure but. probably why he committed suicide. because the symptoms are so distressing.

I mean you just don't know what's. happening to you. I can only imagine how. horrified he must have felt. >> Okay. So, uh, you were diagnosed with. the brain disease called Louisbody. dementia. For those of us who don't. know, and I was one of the many who. didn't, as I say, can you explain to us. what it is? >> Not really. I mean, it's it's a brain. disease. Uh, my father had it and it's. what he died of. >> But did you all know that at the time? Was it called was it diagnosed? was.

diagnosed as Louis buddy dementia. >> and it's what it involves is a gradual. wasting away of the personality so the. person really loses themselves they they. lose their sense of who. >> so is it like Alzheimer's it's a form of. dementia because it's called Louisibody. dementia. >> the symptoms are a lot like Alzheimer's. um it's it's worse there there's a. there's something called mixed dementia. which is a combination of Alzheimer's.

and Louis buddy dementia. >> which you have that. >> which that's what I have. >> I heard you were on you write in the. book that you you were on the phone and. overheard something about your. condition. What happened? >> I was on the phone with my wife. Um she. was actually having a procedure done at. the hospital and I was I was at the. hospital cafeteria and we were on the. phone cuz she called me to say I'm I'm. done. You can come pick me up. And then. she accidentally didn't hang up when we. were done talking and I overheard her.

talking to her nurse saying, you know, he doesn't know it, but he also has. Alzheimer's. And. >> at that moment, I it's like my blood just ran cold. I. just I just couldn't believe what I was. hearing. I held it together until, you. know, we got out of the hospital and she. was driving us back and I said, "Judy, I. I heard what you said, you know, do do I. have Alzheimer's?" And she started to.

cry and she said, "Yes. Um, and I'm so. sorry I withheld it from you." Our. doctor had thought that it would be wise. to withhold it from me just for my. emotional health, but I I needed to. know. >> This is what you write on page 49 of. Ahead of All Parting. You say grief came. like a tsunami. My body shook with sobs that made my. ribs feel like they were splintering. under the weight of loss. My brain, the.

instrument that had given me every gift, was no longer on my team. It was. slipping away. How do you begin to process a loss like. that? It's shattering. >> It's truly truly shattering. >> because it's not the same as just being. sick. You know, when you're sick, you. can feel it in your body, >> but your mind is still intact. Your.

identity is still preserved. This promises to destroy your identity, your sense of yourself, >> which is. I want to call it my most precious. possession. >> is yourself. >> My sense of myself. >> Yeah. >> So contemplating losing that was just. unimaginably painful.

>> On page 62, you talk about cosmic rage. Can you tell us what that is? >> That is a tool that was devised by my. mentor Phil Stutz and it's a brilliant. tool. Uh it's it's to be used when you. feel like you're under attack. Um. usually harsh self-criticism or. self-abuse or the voices in your head. telling you you're worthless that you. know that kind of thing. And what you do. is imagine that those messages are.

coming from demons. If you don't want to. use the word demons, you can use. whatever you want, but they're enemies. >> from outside of you. >> And you imagine that they are attacking. your sense of yourself, your sense of. well-being, your s sense of self-esteem, etc., etc., >> and what you do is you gather up all of. the rage that you can muster inside of. you. It's the kind of rage that says, can I swear? >> Yeah, swear. >> That says, you I'm I'm not going to. listen to this. You get the away from.

me. And you project that rage at the. demons. >> and you push them away. You can't get. rid of them. They just are part of human. existence. >> But you push them away and you can feel. this space opening up in front of you. where you can breathe. >> because you're not going to let yourself. be consumed by that thing. >> Exactly. Like no way. I'm not going to. let you do this. >> Yeah. It's like in the Bible Jesus says, "Get thee behind me, Satan." Exactly. >> Get thee behind me. Except in this. instance, this is in front of you. But.

>> but yeah, exactly. And and I feel that. really powerfully when I use that tool. I feel the freedom of expelling those. demons. >> So before this all happened, you and you. were working with all of your patients. and developing the tools for people to. to live a better life for themselves. So. how did the do what started to happen at. first that you noticed something was. off? Well, I think my wife knew it more than. more quickly than I did. She just.

noticed that my memory was bad. Much. worse than it had ever been before. >> I don't know that I really noticed it. that much. I mean, >> like you couldn't remember names, couldn't remember. >> Exactly. But I'm. >> Would you get confused when you were out. >> sometimes? Yeah. Yeah. Like Yeah. We. would order at a restaurant and the the. waiter would leave and then five minutes. later I'd say, "So, when are we going to. order?" You know, just like ridiculous, you know, memory problems.

>> Um, I'm the kind of person who with my. own medical problems, I just tend to. say, "Ah, whatever. I'll be fine." You. know, kind of thing. So, I probably. would not have paid attention to it. And. I'm grateful to my wife for paying. attention to it, bringing it to our. doctor's attention, and finally getting. me diagnosed. >> Yeah. And when you heard the diagnosis, >> I don't know that I've ever felt that. way before in my life. I mean, it was.

just shattering. Remember, I knew. exactly what this was. Watched my. >> Well, would you have started to suspect. too with your memory when your wife. brings it to your attention? Am I going. to repeat who my father became? >> I was so in denial of any medical. problems. >> that you didn't even occur to you. No. >> Wow. >> No. No. I just bull forward. I just sort. of push forward through things like. that. And I mean, in a way, I'm glad I. did. It gave me a little bit more time.

Um, but no, this when when I was finally. given a diagnosis, that shattered the. denial. You know what I think when anybody gets. a diagnosis or a crisis shows up in in. our lives, the first thing we ask is. why? Why? Why? Why is this happening to. me now? And you write that this disease. was invited into your life for a reason. And I I just think on page 61 where you.

say, "I was beginning to sense that the. suffering had direction, that there was. something to be forged in it, more. courage." You write more depth, more. love. The prize wasn't relief. It was. transformation. This was adversity with purpose. And it. was the road I was meant to walk. Wow. I mean and you and this this this.

has only been in process for three. years, >> right? >> So you came to this pretty quickly. >> Yeah. My life philosophy is everything. that happens to you even and in fact. especially the worst things that happen. to you are there for a reason. It. doesn't mean that they aren't incredibly. painful. I don't mean to minimize that. >> But they happen for a reason. And if you. can look at life that way, then you can. use those things to help you transform.

yourself. And. >> you know, I've I've often said things. are happening for you, not just to you, but I've been able to determine that. after I've gotten through the thing, >> right? >> You know, it's really it's easier after. you've gotten through the thing to be. able to say, "Oh, I now see what that. was for." Right? It's really hard when. you're in the middle of the diagnosis. that is telling you you're going to lose. your ability to be mobile, to speak, and. most importantly, who's who you were,

how you know yourself to be on on on the. planet. Why do you believe that this was. the road that you were meant to walk? >> Well, I believe it philosophically. because I just that's my belief about. life. Adversity has a purpose. >> Yeah. >> Doesn't mean it isn't painful. And I'm. empathic with people who are facing. adversity. >> But it has a purpose. It is supposed to. transform. >> It doesn't mean the reason is is that.

you're you're responsible for the reason. or that you brought the reason on. yourself. >> No. Or that it's a punishment. >> or that it's a punishment. I I I love. that line from Echarolei in a new earth. where he says life will give you exactly. the experience you need for the. evolution of your consciousness. Exactly. >> And how do you know that's the. experience you need? Cuz that's the. experience you are having. >> Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And that's a. look that's a wonderful way to live. because then you can embrace every event. regardless of how adverse it is or how.

painful it is. It it still has a. positive purpose. showing up for you. >> Yes. >> And your journey here on this planet at. this time. >> Yes. >> Because that's the path you were meant. to walk. >> Exactly. >> Not what you wanted to do. >> It was the path that you were meant to. walk and it evokes strengths that you. were meant to develop. >> So. >> when you started to look at it that way, what shifted for you in this process?

Because you know probably because you. remember this long time ago. I think it. was somebody named Rollins wrote a book. It's called First You Cry when she was. diagnosed with cancer. First you cry. So. first you cried. >> Yeah, you did cry. >> Oh my god. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Did you allow others to see you cry? Did. you share your crying with others? >> That's just what I was going to talk. about. I had. I grew up in a very very troubled. family. Um, and it was impossible to.

open up in my family because whatever. you said would be used against you. >> So, I learned to be very closed, very protective, um, and in a certain. way selfish, although I didn't think of. it as selfish. I thought of it as. self-protective. When LBD hit, that shifted and it shifted dramatically. 2 days after the diagnosis. In fact, I.

remember sitting in my office on the. couch and I called I must have called 25. people. Now, you got to understand, I. wouldn't call 25 people in a single day. ever. >> Ever. >> Mhm. >> I maybe over six months, you know, but. not in one day. And I called them to. tell them about the diagnosis and to. elicit their support, which also was. completely strange for me. And as I was.

making the calls, I realized, oh, I'm not just telling people to give. them information. I'm changing the trajectory of my life. from one of extreme secrecy and. self-protectiveness and to one that is. open and connected. I want my life to be. connected to other people. And that was one of the most startling. and dramatic shifts that I've ever.

experienced in my life. Well, I think. the decision to choose not to hide, to choose not to hide. >> is just huge. >> for me. It was huge cuz I would have. hidden it in the past. >> Yeah. And and the energy that it takes. then to hide, >> to cover up, >> to pretend. >> Yes. >> To not show up for things but giving no. explanation or excuses or false excuses.

Not to mention not to mention the fact. that you just you forego all of that. love and support that you could have. gotten from people. >> That was dangerous for me for for. whatever reason growing up in my family. So I just walled that off. >> Mhm. >> Every story we share on the Oprah. podcast comes from a place of intention. Each guest has their own journey and my. hope is that sharing it with us here can. help light the way for somebody else. And as the official insurance partner of.

this podcast, Geico understands that. every journey feels a little easier when. you know you have support along the way. It's the time of year when the weather. changes, days get shorter, calendars. fill up, and you find yourself back in. motion again. Taking the kids to school, running errands, heading home after the. sun sets. During these busy days, it's. the people who show up in small, steady. ways who make the season feel a little. lighter. The friend who stops by with a.

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So, you all should know that Barry. Michaels has had a thriving therapy. practice in Los Angeles for many years, and one of his clients is Drew. Barrymore, who joins us now. Hi, Drew. Great to see you as always. I know. you're taping today there in New York, so thanks for making time for us. You've. called Barry one of your greatest. influences. talk about how he has impacted your life. and what this moment means.

>> It's so interesting to listen to. everything you're saying. I think that. Barry has given that directive and that. inertia to certainly me as far as not. hiding. Mhm. >> to embrace what you are going through as. not a victim, to look at your choices.

and see. how they are affecting you. And Barry has never been one to tell me. at least what I should do or when I. should do it or how I should do it or. who to do it with. It's in his practice and I think the. succinct way that he explains the tools. in this book. I have studied. certain tools with him for over 15.

years. >> Mhm. And the way he writes them in this. book is so light bulb because the tools. are so incredible and so effective. And I am so glad that he did not hold. himself back or close himself off as he. would do in his home growing up because. that's exactly what he has done for all. of his patients. Certainly me. I should.

stay in my own lane and speak for. myself. Um, and I think with this book and. certainly what I've experienced over the. last three years since his diagnosis. speaking to him on a weekly basis. is that he is opening more. And thanks. to this book, as you so perfectly put. it, we have this evidence. of a choice that we can make when. something comes in our path that is.

either detrimental and the end or the. beginning of something. >> Yeah. >> And so it's all in keeping with the. Barry I know. >> Well, I know you went through a. difficult divorce in 2016, I think it. was. And and do you believe as Barry. does that challenges, crisis, difficulties. show up to reveal a greater truth? Did. you find that or was he help a help. helpful in allowing you to excavate that.

for yourself? >> I think it's the perfect balance of. accountability. He helped me see what my choices and. patterns were because if something keeps. presenting itself over and over, >> what is your part in this? >> Yeah. >> And. also that if this is continuing to. present itself and it is not of your. doing, it is there because you have not.

mastered it yet. >> Yeah. And there is tools and a road map to get. there. And it is looking at yourself and. doing this very focused work. that has a tangible. guidance to it. >> And I have hit. rock bottom the hardest in my life at.

that point. And I thought I had hit rock bottom at. 13 and this was so much bigger than. that. >> I know you stopped working with Drew for. a while because of her drinking during. that time and as as a therapist, was. that difficult for you as a decision? >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's always I mean, especially cuz. I love Drew. I It was hard to say. >> I'm not going to work. >> I can't do this. Yeah. But I just felt.

like I honestly I felt like I owed it to. her and to myself, like we just weren't. making progress and I knew we wouldn't. until she stopped. >> Yeah. And you took that seriously. >> It was the best thing that could have. happened to me. I've never respected a. human being more because it demonstrated. something for me that I could not. understand, which is to have a level of. selfrespect. to know you're not getting somewhere.

with someone or anywhere and you will. not until things change. And it taught. me a boundary. >> that I just never knew growing up. My. life was boundaryless. My job was. boundaryless. My behavior was. boundaryless. And it also in not having parents or. siblings. for me I think it is what I would think. of as a familial way to care about. someone which is I recognize this in you.

and I no longer will stand around and. watch it. >> Yeah. So what have you learned watching. Barry move through this devastating. illness? I mean, I as I was open this. conversation, I Is there anything worse. we can hear than you're going to lose. yourself? >> Well, thanks to Barry, being on this journey with him, reading. his book, speaking to him about it, it.

gave me confidence and courage in our. sessions to ask how he's doing. And. through being with him in the last few. years, he has helped me understand that. we can make peace with things and our. greatest devastations can become our. greatest strengths. >> We lack in control in this world and in. this life and it just scares us into.

paralysis. >> Yeah. >> And this is the opposite of that. So, I have to say it's incredible what. you've been able to actually learn from. each other, right? >> Yeah. >> So, thank you, Drew Barrymore. Thank you. so much for joining us. I know you got. to get back to work. >> Thank you for having me always, anytime, anywhere. Goodbye. And I love you, Barry. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye, Drew. >> Bye.

>> Maybe you're feeling it, too. With so. many ways to reach each other, it can be. easy to mistake being reachable for. being truly connected. But I've learned. that what many people are longing for is. just to be heard, truly heard by another. person. That's what we're trying to do. here on the Oprah podcast. I see you. contemplating and I can see that you're. seeing yourself a different way after he. said that. making space for real. connection because every time we stop.

and actually listen to each other, something shifts, something opens. AT&T. believes that, too. The right connection. at the right moment between the right. people can change the course of a day, a. relationship, and even a whole life. So. the next time you reach for your phone. to call someone you love, know that AT&T. is with you. Keeping that connection. strong because AT&T is there when the.

connection matters and connecting. changes everything. So as we were speaking earlier, you're. still seeing patients. What how has this. journey. changed you as a therapist? >> You know, I'm I'm much more open than. I've ever been before, not just with my. patients, but with my friends, with. really with everybody. Um, I think it's also strangely and.

maybe paradoxically, it's made me trust my instincts more, possibly because I can't really rely on. my intellect as as faithfully as I used. to. >> So, in the absence of that, I have to. sort of close my eyes and listen and. hear what's coming up inside of me and. say that. >> Isn't that a good thing? It's a great. thing actually. I mean, I don't always.

trust that something's going to come up. You know, sometimes I'm just sitting. there waiting like, what's going to. happen here? Um, but you know, more. often than not, something does come up. And I love those insights. They're much. better than the ones that I come up. with. >> How has it changed the way you see every. day? Has it changed the way you look at. life? You know, >> it's a really good question. I I'm not. sure. I I'm not sure it's changed the way I.

look at life. I appreciate life so much. more than I. >> Okay. So, it's changed the way you. appreciate life. >> Yes. Yes. It It just feels so precious. to me. So much more so than it used to. >> And the diagnosis is what you That says. you have how many years before you? >> Five to seven. >> And you're the third. >> Yeah. Although that's Louis buddy. dementia, mixed dementia I think might. be shorter than that. I'm not sure. >> And so.

>> I try honestly I try not to like look at. that. >> not to think about it. >> Yeah. >> So while preparing this episode we heard. from many of you who are dealing with. your own health struggles. uh and wanted to ask Barry for his. advice. Alicia joins us. Alicia, what's. going on? Hello. >> Hi. Thanks for having me. This book, I. just think it's one of the most. beautiful certainly memoirs I've ever. read and it's so truthful and resonates. so powerfully that whatever anybody's.

going through reading this, this is. going to be one of those books you keep. by your bedside forever. But so, welcome. and and give us your question. >> Really quick, I'm a 43year-old. stay-at-home mom. I have four kids and a. couple months ago in July, I was. diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. And. my question for you is, do you feel guilty for having your. diagnosis? >> It's a good question. I I sense that you. do. I don't mostly because in in my.

family, we have a kind of reciprocal. caretaking relationship. I take care of. my wife with, you know, her medical. problems and she takes care of me. And. it helps that she doesn't make me feel. bad about it. >> Mhm. >> Are you struggling with that? >> Yes. Um I don't feel sorry for myself. I. feel more sorry for my husband and my. kids. Um because I I know that one day I.

can't be the wife and the mother that I. want to be. >> Yeah. >> And um right now I'm kind of in the it's. not fair phase. Um why me? >> Yeah. How do you overcome the guilt of. knowing that. you'll never be the same? >> Look, I I can't tell you how to view. this, but I can tell you that it will. help if you think of it as something. that was supposed to happen.

I know that that's difficult, but the. problem is that if you look at it as. something that shouldn't have happened, >> then you're fighting against something. you can't win. You're fighting against. reality. And that fight can only lead to. resentment and a sense of victimization, which is just an awful place to live in, you know. So what I try to teach my. patients to do and what I do myself is.

to try to imagine that whatever you. believe in whether it's God or fate or. the universe or whatever. it wanted me to go through this for a. reason. And usually the reason has to do. with strength. It has to do with having. the fortitude and the courage to. overcome something even though you're. suffering from it and to overcome it to. the degree that you can put out the best. energy that you can that you can to.

other people despite the fact that. you're suffering from it. >> So, how does that land with you? >> It's uh I think just right now it's just. hard to accept. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> key word. >> right now. >> key word is accept. manageable key word. is accept because all grief you're. grieving the the mother you wanted to be. you're grieving the wife you wanted to. be you're grieving and you know part of. the stages of grief is getting to. acceptance so you're still angry about.

it and sad about it of course of course. >> yeah more more sad than angry I try not. to hold on to the anger but definitely. >> frustrated and sad about the future of. my family Yeah, >> I know this sounds like it wouldn't. help, but I think it would if you do it. repeatedly. When you feel that. resentment, sadness, feeling of like, I. don't want this to be happening.

See if you can close your eyes and just. accept that whether I want it to be. happening or not, it is happening and. there's nothing that I can do to change. that. And that might initially make you. want to cry because it's sad. >> But that's the that's the next stage for. you to go through to get to acceptance. is an acceptance that this is happening.

no matter what I think of it, whether I. like it or hate it or anything else. Once you can go through that enough. times, I think you're actually going to. be a lot happier because you'll be in. acceptance of what's happening to you. and you'll be able to stop feeling. guilty about your family, stop feeling. bad about the disease, you know, and and. just live in a in a greater place of. acceptance. >> Cuz right now, I appreciated what you. said to her. You're fighting against. something that you can't win.

>> Exactly. >> Yeah. because you're wanting it to be. what it is not going to be ever again. >> All day, every day, I treat people who. want their life to be different from. what it is, but they can't make it. different. It's God's will or it's fate. or whatever you want to call it, but. it's invariable. It's not in their power. to change it. And when that happens, you. have to accept a level of powerlessness. that's, you know, uncomfortable for most. of us to accept. But also, you got to.

this stage of acceptance. You had your. cries. You had your grieving, your. sadness, your anger, even denial about. it. So, >> we're going to allow you that space, Alicia, and. hope and pray that you get to acceptance. sooner. than. where you are right now. >> And thank you. >> Can I say one other thing about that? It'll be one of the greatest gifts that.

you can give to your to your family. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because whether they know it or not, consciously, they sense that you're. fighting Yeah. >> with what you're going through. >> They feel your resistance. >> Yeah. >> Your family feels your resistance. How. old are your children? >> My youngest is 10 and my oldest is 21. >> Yeah. Well, I was going to say no matter. how young or old they are, even if. they're young ones in the house, they. sense that resistance in some way. energetically, they will feel the. vibration of whatever that is. And so I.

think because you are such a caring, loving mother. and your question was about feeling. guilty about what's going to happen to. them that having the perspective of. knowing that you're getting to. acceptance sooner actually is going to. help them rather than you resisting. as you are. And I know it's your own. journey to get there. Nobody's telling. you how soon you have to get there, but. the sooner you get there as as as we're.

hearing, the better it's going to be for. everybody in the family, not just for. you, cuz they're they they can feel. where you are. Yeah. And you all and and. and whether you like it or not or have. accepted it or not, this is a journey. that your family is going to have to. take together. So the dream that you had. shifts. >> Yeah. The dream that you had shifts and. now you have another dream. You create. another dream. Is. >> that's exactly right.

>> Yeah. >> Exactly right. >> Thank you, Alicia. Thank you. Thank you. so much. >> Thank you. >> All right. >> How has this impacted your relationship. with your wife, Judy? You were talking. about how you all work in tandem. >> It. >> I think that helps when you have. somebody who understands and cares. And. >> my wife is a therapist also. And um. sorry. it um has brought us so close together.

and it has allowed me to I'm a very very. self-reliant person. I learned very. early on not to depend on anybody. and I have let down and depended on her. in ways that I never thought were. possible. I I. >> it's astonishing how much closer we are. to each other as a result of this. I. mean, it's one of those strange. paradoxical things where a horrible. reality has just really brought us. >> well because you cannot help but be. vulnerable.

>> Yeah. >> And vulnerability is what creates the. greatest sense of connection and. intimacy, does it not? >> Beautifully said. >> Yeah. >> Exactly right. And let me say one other. thing about that. My wife. >> is an extraordinarily. sensitive caretaking person. I mean, she. just takes such good care of me as well. So, it's not just. >> that I've leaned on her. It's that I've. seen a side of her that I I sort of knew. existed cuz I saw it with my kids and I.

saw it with her friends. But. >> to be the recipient of it. has been life-changing. >> Just life-changing. >> Let's hear from one more listener. Uh, Alex, what's your question for Barry? Hi, Alex. How you doing? Thank you for. having me, Oprah. And thank you, Barry, for just being vulnerable and sharing. your story. A little bit about me. I'm a. personal trainer from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Uh 3 years ago at 37, my. life changed completely. I went to the.

ER thinking I might have kidney stones. only to find out my blood pressure was. 260 over 150. And after some more. testing, I was told I had stage 4 kidney. failure and we need a new kidney. uh. immediately started dialysis and. thankfully received the kidney from my. sister later that year. Now all the. medications I'm on uh prevent me daily. from doing the things I used to do. Um. just a very fit person and I feel like. part of my identity um I built over the. years was taking away from me. So my.

question to Barry is how did you learn. to let go um of the person that you were. and embrace the person you're becoming? Um, also like how did you make peace. with that transition? >> It took time. Um, and what I had to do. was actively let go of the things that. were being taken away from me. You know, my first reaction, and I suspect it. probably yours, is this isn't fair. It.

shouldn't be happening to me. And. unfortunately that's pretty worthless. because it is happening to you whether. you like it or not. So I had to overcome. that. I had to say to myself what I say. to my patients which which is it doesn't. matter what you think should be. happening. Your opinions don't matter in. this instance. Reality is what matters. and the reality is you have to let go of. certain things. What I also used was a tool that um my.

mentor Phil Stutz calls loss processing. It's a way of processing a loss. You. take the thing that you're lo that. you're losing and you sort of visualize. it in front of you and then you imagine. it being taken away from you, but. instead of resisting it, which we all. do, you let go of it. You actively let. it go and you watch as it sort of. disappears over the horizon. And a lot. of times I cry at that point because I.

don't really want to let go, but I'm I. am letting go. >> And you let go and then you're left with. a feeling of completeness because you're. no longer holding on to something that. you can't have anyway. >> Let me explain that for a moment. When. you're holding on to something that you. can't actually have, you feel incomplete. because you don't have the thing that. you want to have. letting go of it. actually allows you to feel whole.

because you're not you're not wishing. for something you can't have. >> It's again like like you were saying. earlier you you you heard what he was. saying to Alicia fighting against. something that you cannot win. >> And so what is it you fear most having. to let go of? Um, I I feel just letting. go of who I've known myself to be over. the past uh 40 years of my life and just. the unexpected of it getting taken away. and you really had no say. You couldn't.

mentally uh get yourself ready for that. transition. You were forced into that. transition. >> So now you're in the process of. reinventing. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I think that's. >> I'm enjoying the journey but still. trying to let go. It is. It may not feel. exciting in the initial stages, but it. is exciting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, the question isn't the. question then doesn't become about who. I've had to let go, but now who can I. be? >> Yes. Who am I going to become? And if.

you can try to cultivate some. anticipatory excitement about that like. who knows I may be I may be better than. I was before for all I know. >> You you never know. Definely. >> Yeah. But if your identity has always. been in the physical, >> you know, your ability to your prowess. in physicality, >> then maybe it means you're being opened. and expanded to something. >> that you never even imagined. Alex,

>> yes. Um, that's honestly I'm looking. forward to it. I've let go a little bit, but I'm I'm still holding on a little to. the to the past. >> You're not Are you still in the me? Are. you are you still in the why me stage? >> Um I was never in that stage actually. I. I was more okay this is an issue. Let's. fix it and let's start the steps um to. get back to a normal way of living. >> Right. You're you're more for you it's. more like I just don't want this to be.

happening. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> How long ago was the transplant? How. long ago? >> Uh December 2023. So it'll be three. years this December. Okay. Grateful to. have had your sister's kidney. Wow. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Yeah. Thank you, Alex. Thank you. >> Thanks. Thank you very much. >> Okay. You write about to how this. experience has revealed God's love for. you. And I read that you were one at one time.

you were an atheist. So tell about how. did that happen? >> Tell us. That's the strangest part of. this story because I was raised in a. household that was not just atheistic. but militantly atheistic. I mean my. mother used to school me in the. reputations of the arguments in favor of. God. like it was almost like she I don't. know what she expected but but just in. case I was ever exposed to anyone who. believed in God and tried to convince me.

that God existed I had an argument for. every argument that they. >> and didn't that happen younger too when. you. >> Oh yeah I know it started almost at. birth I mean she was really. >> really intensely atheistic both my. parents were. >> um I'm sorry. >> and not even wanting anybody to talk to. you about God or yeah if somebody. mentioned God or a had mentioned God. >> No, I I slept over at a friend's m. friend's house and uh the family was. Catholic and when we went to bed, they.

said the Lord's Prayer and I didn't. really think anything of it. Um I. thought it was actually kind of sweet. >> Mhm. But when I got home and made the. mistake of telling my mother, she got. very upset and she I I remember being. schooled for about a week every night. about how we refute the belief in God. You know, in case anybody tries to. convince you, you know, that God is. real, this is how this is what you have. to say. >> I just love that. Don't you go over.

there saying the Lord's Prayer. >> It was wild. >> Wild. Wild. Yeah. And so now you call it. the life force. which I I love. I love I have so many. names for God. So the life force I. remember used to have these. conversations with Sydney Portier. He. would always say the forces. I would use. it use the term God and he would say. well the forces and I would say why. can't you just call it God? He goes why. can't you just call it the the forces. So, wherever you are now, Sydney, I.

agree with you and you probably now. agree with me. So, what what happened? >> I had an extraordinary experience and I. kept having it over and over again, which was soon after I was diagnosed. One of the just so you know, one of the. symptoms of the disease is that you wake. up incredibly early. I get up at 2 or 3. in the morning every morning. Mhm. >> Um, which weirdly I have come not to. mind because it's kind of a magical.

time, you know, it's very dark. >> Me means you just wake up. >> I wake up and I go to my office. And I. found myself more and more. getting down on my knees to pray. Even. though I wasn't sure I believed in God, I just was felt like called to do that. And very soon after I was diagnosed, I. was up there one morning. It was very. dark outside, very quiet. And I was. praying silently. There weren't any.

words or anything. I was just asking for. help. And I felt this unmistakable presence in. the room with me. >> And I. I couldn't believe it. Like I was like, come on. This isn't really happening. Is. it? But it was really happening. It was. a real presence. >> And it was a comforting presence. It was.

>> something I'd never really experienced. before, like a like a presence that. really wanted to reach me and help me. and soothe me. And that happened every. single morning for several years. It. sort of faded out after a while. I think. it had played its purpose, which was to. give me an immediate experience of a. higher power. >> that I then used.

to soothe myself with and to make me. feel. >> So, you know, it's there. I mean, I feel. that presence all the time. >> That's amazing. >> It abides with me. >> That's amazing. And it was. >> not the God that I had been used to. reading about. It wasn't a transcendent. It was imminent. It was right here, right now. >> and loving me with immense force. >> Life force. >> Life force. >> Life force. Yeah. I love that tit title.

for it. >> This is from um one of your poems. Do. you write all the time? >> Every day. >> Every day. >> And this is called Death Dance with the. Divine. You say, "Take it from someone who's. dying.". God doesn't really care what you choose. to do with your life. What God cares. about is not what you choose to do, but. how you do it. God wants to see you. pursuing life with your blood, your.

guts, your heart, and your soul. the. allconsuming. divine fire you have inside you. So when. people ask me, "What did you do when you. found out you were living under a death. sentence?" My answer is, "I gave it all. away. All of it. Every last drop. And I danced with the.

divine.". That is so beautiful. >> Thank you. I know writing especially poetry has. become. like a balm like a salvation for you. So. >> what what what does it do for you the. writing? >> I think more than anything else it gives. me a chance to express myself. creatively. I'm I'm kind of a freak for. beauty in of all sorts like the beauty.

of nature, the beauty of language, the. beauty of God and. writing is the medium that I'm most. familiar and comfortable with. So when I. write poetry and I I I almost hesitate. to say I write poetry because it feels. like it writes me, like it comes through. me, not from me. But that's. that's my first experience each day with. beauty is oh these words are spilling.

out coming through me and they're. I don't really care whether anyone else. likes it or you know evaluates it or. anything. It just it just the way my. soul needs to create beauty. >> is through poetry. >> You can you explain the concept of. outflow that you talk about? Yeah. and. you experienced out outflow at a batting. cage. Tell us that story. >> Yes. Um. so just to start with outflow. Outflow.

is a tool that you use um when you're. feeling blocked or when you're feeling. down or when you're feeling disconnected. from people. What you do is very it's a. very simple tool. You imagine that. there's an infinite amount of energy. inside of you inside your heart which I. actually believe is is real. But you. imagine it. Um, so it's sort of like the. sun is shining from inside of you. And. then what you do is you take that energy. and you flow it out.

>> to everything and everyone around you. And what that does is it creates a. feeling of. I belong here. I belong here and I am. meant to be an avatar of. sacred energy and every human being is. So, it helps with lots of different. things. It helps with depression. It. helps with self-expression problems, you. know, expressing yourself. It helps with. connecting with people. When you can,

you know, go to a party where you don't. know anybody and you can use Outflow, you're going to find it easier to talk. to people, you know. So, it's it's a. multi-purpose tool, but it's a tool that. I use a lot because. in my childhood, for self-protective. reasons, I developed the habit of. shutting down and turning inward. >> And that's terrible for a person. It's. it cuts you off from resources that you. have. So, outflow redirects my energy.

and puts me back in the posture where. I'm potent. And the batting cage story. >> And the batting cage story was such a. delightful event. Um, a friend was. driving me back home and we passed a. batting cage and we just sort of looked. at each other like. a batting cage. Really? You think we. should go do this? Yeah. Like I'm in my. 70s. >> Um, and we decided, yeah, let's go for.

it. So, we went to the batting cage. and. we had the craziest good time I've had. in so many years. It felt so good. >> to be back in that to feel my body like. I used to love playing baseball. >> and he did too. And we just we we both. just marveled at the end of it how. delightful it was and how wonderful.

Part of it was just the sp sheer. spontaneity. >> Spontaneity of it. Yeah. Sounds like the. spontaneity of it in that moment. >> Yes. >> And part of it was just returning to. youth and feeling those muscles in your. body that you haven't used in such a. long time and the just the feeling of. like, oh my god, I can still hit a. baseball. >> Here's what you write about mortality. You say the life expectancy of someone, you know, with your diagnosis is 5 to. seven years. And you were diagnosed 3.

years ago. We were saying earlier, the. closer I come to leaving this world, the. more vivid everything becomes. The slant of light on the floorboards, the sound of my wife breathing beside. me, the taste of water. It all feels saturated with divinity. The world hasn't changed. I have. So, how have you come to see your own.

mortality? >> I know this sounds strange, but I've. come to see it as a blessing. because it has awakened. those those feelings. And look, the truth is I was going to. die anyway. We all are. But in my case, the way it happened. enabled me to see life with a whole new.

whole new vision, whole new way of. looking. So. look, I cried every single day for the. first year. Every day I wept bitterly. But now I'm in a different place. It's. like, it's strange to say, but this was a good. thing. It awakened my soul in ways that. I don't think that it ever would have. been awakened.

So, go figure. >> What's Yeah, go figure. What what what's. the what's the big takeaway, the one. lesson you'd like people reading ahead. of all partying or listening to us right. now to receive? >> What do you want us to know? I think. what I what what I would say is the big. lesson at least for me from all of this. is don't be so sure that the things that.

you hate that that the things that feel. adverse you know that you don't be so. sure that they're so bad or that they're. a absolutely bad. There's something good. in every single experience that you have. in your life. And the worse the. experience is, the more it kind of. shatters the things that need to be. shattered and awakens the things that. need to be awakened. >> And it's so important for us to be able.

to accept those lessons and grow from. them. >> I want to talk about the title ahead of. all parting. Where did that title come from? It's a. poem by Rainor Maria Roka who's one of. my favorite poets. And what Roka is. saying in the poem is that we need to. get ahead of death in the sense of. anticipating. that our lives will come to an end which.

means that this moment matters. If there's no death then this moment. doesn't matter because you have an. infinite number of them to come. So it's I love that poem because it it. >> the first line is be ahead of all. parting as if it had already happened. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. So he's telling us grab life. Take a hold of it. Make each moment. meaningful. Don't treat it as if you had.

an infinite number of moments because. you don't, you know, kind of thing. So. that's that's what I take from the poem. Mhm. >> Well, I first of all I want you to close. by reading um your poem because at the. end of the book you write a final poem. for the reader. And before that, I just would like to. say I just think it's just so. courageous of you, daring of you,

and I'm so grateful to you for making. the trip up here today because first of. all, I was when I as I said to you when. I first read this, I was wondering, are. you going to be okay? And I'm sure you. had to think yourself, am I going to be. okay for this interview today? >> Absolutely. And I want you to know you. are very much okay. >> Thank you. >> Very much okay. >> Thank you. >> Very much. Thank you. And now you can.

read us your poem. We're going to close. with your poem. Empty yourself of knowing. Yearn without. shame. Give without calculation. Dance when you can. Cry when you must. Every act of surrender is an opening. through which God can enter. >> Every act of surrender is an opening. through which God can enter.

Thank you Barry Michaels. A big thank you to the wonderful Drew. Barry Moore and to Alicia and Alex. Thank you too for listening and asking. your questions. I I really I cannot. recommend a book any stronger. I hope. you'll pick up a copy of A Head of All. Parting for Yourself or someone you love. who may be in need of Barry's wisdom and. go well everybody. Barry Michael's extraordinary memoir, Ahead of All Parting, is available now.

This book is filled with so much. insight, perspective, wisdom. I hope you. pick up a copy for yourself and somebody. you love. Just scan the QR code there on. your screen. Our listeners tell us that. the podcast is resonating with you and. is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So, here's the. thing. I would really appreciate it if. you like and subscribe to the Oprah. podcast on YouTube or wherever you. podcast. It's it's just a quick tap of.

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