How Mattering to Yourself & Others Can Change Your Life with Oprah, Jennifer Wallace & Ina Garten

So Aina never cancels unless [music] she. is really sick. Definitely. Yeah. I just. know. >> And you just know it and it builds this. trust. And we live in this flake culture. [music]. where people have really I mean it's I. think it's a terrible thing to do. It. really erodess friendships. One way to. make people feel like [music] they. matter is to commit to them so they can. trust you. They can trust that when they. make a plan you will be there. The most. lovely thing you can do to say to. somebody you matter is [music] say come. to dinner. And I mean, when was the last.

time somebody called and said, "Come for. dinner." And you said, "No, I'm not. really interested in a home-cooked. dinner." That's right. Of course you're. going to say yes. And when you show up, you create a community around. yourselves. >> Hey there. It's my pleasure to be with. you here on the Oprah podcast in the. great city of New York. I often say that. one of the biggest lessons I've ever. learned from my life and career of. talking with thousands of people is that. at our core, we all want to know that we.

matter. It's one of our fundamental. desires as human beings. Every argument, every interaction we've have really. boils down to this. Do you see me? Do. you hear me? And does what I say matter. to you? So when I saw the title of this. book, Mattering, the secret to a life of. deep connection, I thought, Jennifer is. speaking my language. It got my. attention. And I love a Clementine, too. So, uh, then I open it up and I see that.

I am quoted on page 18 in this book. Pretty cool. My guest on this podcast. today believes that there has been an. erosion of mattering. So that's why she. was inspired to spend six years. researching it all over the world. Jennifer Wallace is an award-winning. journalist and founder of the Mattering. Institute. Did you know there was a. Mattering Institute? Well, welcome, Jennifer, to the podcast. I hear. everyone calls you Jenny, so I'm going. to call you Jenny. >> Great. Thanks.

>> So, I I find this fascinating that you. asked hundreds of people around the. world this question. Do you feel like. you matter? We asked that of you today. Do you feel like you matter? That's a. really important question. And what did. they tell you, Jenny? >> They told me no or not anymore. I spoke. with doctors who felt crushed by. insurance companies, uh, not able to.

practice the care they wanted. I heard. from, uh, first responders, uh, wondering if their efforts were really. making an actual difference. I heard. from caregivers who felt like they. mattered too much to everyone else. except that their needs were never. prioritized. I spoke with a college. student who told me that she only felt. like she mattered when her GPA was high. and her weight was low. Yes. Yeah. >> So there it is it was a crushing uh it. was a crushing experience. But I also. met people who found a way back to.

mattering which was inspiring. >> which is what we're going to talk about. today a lot. And you write on page 10, in truth, we are living through a social. health crisis, a profound breakdown of. the relationships that once protected. us. We've lost track of our basic human. needs for connection and contribution. Now, we often feel tempted to fill that. void with counterfeit forms of. mattering, chasing attention over.

connection, prestige over purpose, and. money over meaning. That's what you. found around the world too. People are. saying but not articulating as well as. that. Right. >> Right. We we have you know this is as. you as you said in the intro this basic. human need that we have stopped treating. as a need and more like a nice to have. and the problem is when you don't feed. that need you you will find other ways. to meet it.

>> Yeah. whether conscious or not. conscious. >> And do you think now with all of the. things in this abundantfilled. society that we leave live in, you would. think that with all the abundance and. all the access and all of the indulgence. that people would feel like they. mattered more, but it's actually the. opposite. >> It is that's it's a false sense of. mattering. It's sort of the junk food of. mattering. Um, I I I've been thinking as. I was writing this book, I was thinking. about the theologian Henry Nen.

>> who talks about the three great lies of. our society. I am what I have. I am what. I do. I am what people say and think. about me. That is the opposite of. mattering. That is the belief that I do. not matter. I my mattering is. contingent. It is contingent on my. house. It's contingent on the number of. followers I have. It's contingent on the. sneakers I'm wearing. It's contingent on. all these other things. >> It's contingent on how people see me. It's how they see me. Their their. perception of who I am instead of.

working on what you really are. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I, you know, I first heard about your. book from AA Garden. >> Oh, >> did you know that? >> Yes. >> Uh right here on this podcast when I was. interviewing a from its one of the most, as we know, beloved people in the world, the fabulous AA garden. Here's a quick. look at what AA said. What do you think. your purpose and your gift to the planet. has been? >> I think writing the book has really made. me realize this. Yeah. >> Is I think the the the thing that we can.

do is matter to each other. >> is that my work matters to other people. And the thing about mattering which I a. very good friend of mine Jenny Wallace. talks about mattering and she's writing. about it um is that is it's so. actionable. to that we can do things that make us. make other people feel they matter to us. um and that makes them feel good and. vice versa. And it's it's as simple as.

bringing a a pot of chicken soup to a. friend who's sick. You're saying to that. person, you matter to me. Hi. Hi. Aa Garden is here. >> I'm so happy to see you. >> The Aina Garden wanted to show you her. support, Jenny, because you matter so. much to her as a friend. You've been. friends for how long? Years. >> Years. 10 years. Welcome everybody. The. Barefoot Contessa [laughter] Ina Garden. So good to see you. >> So good to see you. >> Why did you believe so passionately in.

this book? Just in our conversation, you. just casually me mentioned it. >> She was writing it at the time. Yeah, exactly. >> What resonated most for you on that? >> What I love about Jenny is that she's. writing the book because it's important. to write, but she's such a believer in. people understanding this. It's really. more about people have having the. information so that they can make their. lives better. And it doesn't matter. whether it's 20 people or 2,000 people. She just wants people to understand how. important this is to our own.

satisfaction. Anda has mattered so much to you, I'm. sure, being a friend and mentor. Yes, >> she has. I mean, I've learned so much in. our 10 years of lunches and dinner. >> She's my mentor. I'm not her mentor. [laughter]. >> Yeah. I I will say if we're going to. talk in mattering terms, I think really. showed me how to matter to myself, which. is a critical aspect of mattering. And. when you are a parent to three young. children and trying to have a career,

your needs are often not even on the. to-do list. And so I would go, we would. meet for lunch and I would sit down. >> and she would say, "Okay, so what are. you doing for you? How are you?" She. didn't use the word mattering. necessarily at the time, but she really. >> um you know what she showed me was we. have to be intentional about finding our. joy and celebrating our joy. She said to. me a quote, uh, "For some people like. me, work is easy, play is hard.". >> Mhm. Mhm. >> And so I learned from AA how to.

prioritize my play, how to squeeze more. joy into my day, even on those really. busy days. And you know, for anybody out. there like me who's struggling with how. to prioritize your own needs, I I now. have this simple practice that I do. where every morning when I'm brushing my. teeth, I say to myself, what is the one. need I need to fill today for myself. >> so that I can show up and be my best. self for the people that I care about? >> So that's it's about, you know, they. there's this great quote, self-care is.

other care. >> Yes. And as parents, >> we know that until if your if your your. tank is empty, you don't have anything. to give everybody else. Yes. Yes. >> I loved on our show when when we were. doing our podcast together, AA, that you. said it could be as simple as as a as a. bowl of soup, sharing with someone. What. are the other ways that you have found. have been powerful in showing people. that they matter? >> I think I mean Jenny and I do this all. the time is when you're with somebody, you don't have a phone, you don't have. anything with you. They've got your.

undivided attention and that just says. you're more important to me than. anything else. And you and I do. something that I just love is and we. just do it spontaneously. Whenever we're. together, we don't leave each other. until we say, "When are we going to. when's the next time? What are we doing. next? We mark it in our calendar. >> We make the time. >> We make the time. We just say, "I'm not. done. You're so important to me. I can't. I can't finish what we're doing." And we. always make it. And we do it without. thinking about it as mattering. But but. it just that's the way we worthy of.

protecting this time. I'll tell you the. other thing that struck me 10 years ago. when we first started becoming friends. and I think what really. >> first started dating. >> when we first [laughter] started dating. as girlfriends and what struck me was. how quickly you can build a sense of. trust when the person that you know is. is committed to showing up to the. events. So never cancels unless she is. really sick. Definitely. Yeah. >> And you just know it and and it builds. this trust. And we live in this flake.

culture where people have really I mean. it's I think it's a terrible thing to. do. It really erodess friendships. One. way to make people feel like they matter. is to commit to them so they can trust. you. They can trust that when they make. a plan you will be there. And it's in. that trust, that commitment that you. feel comfortable being vulnerable. And. so that's another lesson you learned. from her just by your actions, by what. you by the way you show up for other. people. Yeah. Did you learn anything in. particular from this runaway bestseller.

of be ready when the luck happens? >> I mean the title is a mantra of mine. which I think yes luck plays into it but. so does the everyday. >> work. I mean AA is a scientist. Aa is a. serious businesswoman. She makes it look. fun and she does have fun and she. prioritizes her fun. But this is work. This is every day, 5 days a week, sometimes seven days a week working. And. that's how you build this unbelievable. business and empire that both of you.

have built. >> I think Jenny and I do something else. with each other is the most lovely thing. you can do to say to somebody you matter. is say come to dinner. We know how hard. it is to make dinner. But when you say. to somebody, "Come to dinner." You say, "You're important to me." And you're not. only important, you're important enough. that I want to spend the time and the. energy to make dinner for you, to take. care of you. And I think we we love. having small dinner parties where you. can really connect with people. >> And I mean, when was the last time.

somebody called and said, "Come for. dinner." And you said, "Nah, I'm not. really interested in a home-cooked. dinner." Of course you're going to say. yes. And when you show up, you create a. community around yourselves. Well, aa. Garden knows how to do that better than. anyone in the world. Thank you for all. the gifts you've given to all of us and. making all of us feel like we matter in. the kitchen with our food offerings, with our cooking, with our sharing and. and and being able to be around the. table with friends and really feel that. that is valuable time for everyone. >> It is. And it always is, isn't it? Don't.

you always walk away feeling feeling. fulfilled like soul satisfying kind of. experience having good friends around a. table? >> Absolutely. and we know that you have a. busy schedule here in New York. So, thank you for stopping by just so much. and give us your support. Have fun. letting us [laughter] know we matter. Thank you. Thank you, Aina Garden. So, imagine my delight when I'm just I'm. just flipping through the book reading a. page and d page 15 connecting to your. impact and reading the stories and then.

I come across page 18 and there's a. quote from Oprah Winfrey. I'm like, "Wow, I'm in this book where I say. there's a common denominator in the. human experience that we all share." So, that obviously resonated with you as. deeply as it has resonated throughout my. life. But isn't that true? >> That's the thread that connects us all. >> Yes. If you want to know someone, if you. want to really know them, do ask them, "Do you feel like you matter?". >> Yes. >> Did you grow up feeling like you matter? Do you work in a place that makes you.

feel like you matter? Do you matter to. your neighbors, to your extended. families? Do you have these deep, nourishing friendships that remind you. that you matter when you get pulled off. course? When you doubt your own worth? We all need that. >> You know, we're the wealthiest nation in. the world and we have, you know, so much. affluence and indulgence and abundance. Did you find talking to people in other. countries that were not as wealthy and. people were not as well off that their.

sense of mattering is different than. ours? >> Yes. I would say where it comes down to. is uh can I dork out for a minute and. talk about values? >> So I didn't know this before researching. the book but our values what we value. impacts our well-being. So when you know. researchers who study it say all of us. all over the world have these same core. values inside of us and researchers. separate them out into exttrinsic values.

and intrinsic values. Exttrinsic values. are things like wanting the big house, wanting the high status career. >> That's right. The car the things. a certain image. Those are exttrinsic. values. Intrinsic values are things like. wanting to be good to the environment, wanting to be pro-social, wanting to. grow spiritually, wanting to be a good. neighbor. Values operate like a zero sum. game. So the more time and energy you. spend pursuing these exttrinsic values,

the less room you have in your life for. pursuing intrinsic ones. And here's why. this matters. Because exttrinsic values. are linked with negative mental health. and substance abuse disorder, whereas. intrinsic values are linked with the. well-being we want. And here it's not. that we in America. have bad values. It's that our extrinsic. values are constantly being activated on. social media, in the wider media. We are. hearing these messages day in and day. out in our hyper capitalistic culture.

>> that you need these things to matter. Whereas people who live their lives and. organize their lives through intrinsic. values. >> are are what they are doing is they are. more likely living a life of mattering. Living a life where they feel valued by. their people and where they know that. they add meaningful value back. >> Well, I want to bring in Dr. Gordon Flet. whom you know. word. >> Yeah. Uh a professor emeritus in. psychology at York University in.

Toronto. The New York Times called him. one of the world's foremost authorities. on the subject of mattering and his. thoughts are featured throughout Jenny's. book. Dr. Flet, thank you for joining. us. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thank you. And explain explain why. mattering is so crucial. You know, mattering is something that cuts across. virtually everything we do and. everything we have in our lives in terms. of our thoughts, our feelings, but also. our roles and our relationships. And uh.

you know, I think daily it's something. that we experience either in terms of. that feeling of mattering or not. mattering. So to me, the bottom line is. that when you're thinking about. mattering and somebody has a deep sense. of mattering that they are somebody who. is filled with hope as well. That's the. key thing from a person perspective. It. goes along with a lot of other positive. things and it's very strongly related to. hope. So somebody who has this sense is. got a lot of positive resources they can. bring up when they need it. >> Absolutely. And you coined the term.

antimattering also. What is that? >> Antimattering is the flip side. It's. that time when you feel like you're. invisible. People are going out of their. way to make you feel unimportant, insignificant. And it can be very deep. in terms of a soul-based thing where. you're if you chronically are. experiencing this, you're feeling you've. got you're not being seen, you don't. have a voice. And uh you know, unfortunately, this is something that's. related to epidemics that we have right. now. Talk about the loneliness epidemic,

the social media addiction epidemic. I. think they're all focusing on that need. to matter. And uh sadly, antimattering. is very robustly correlated. So that if. you feel like you don't matter and it's. chronic, you also have that strong sense. of of being alone and and lonely. >> Yeah. As I was reading the book, I was. thinking antimattering really. contributes to people being dangerous. Dangerous to themselves and dangerous to. other people because when you don't feel. like you you you matter, it means you.

can do anything to harm yourself and do. anything to harm other people. Agree. Jenny? >> I totally agree. You will go to great. lengths to prove that you matter. >> That you do matter. When I think about. political extremes, I think about road. rage, I think about shootings, I think. about online attacks. These are people. who are desperately saying, "Oh, I don't. matter. I'll show you I matter." They'll. even act out against themselves. There's. um there was a study that I write about. of suicidal men, uh and the two words.

they used to describe their pain was. useless and worthless. Yes. >> So, when we feel like we don't matter, we can turn against ourselves or we can. turn against each other. Well, Professor. F, you know, I I think this is something. that maybe a lot of people u don't. realize. You know, we are seeing this. craze now towards longevity. Uh it's a. it's a craze happening in our culture. But how does mattering impact uh our. morality and our longevity?

>> I'm so glad you asked that. First, the. morality there is that subset of people. Jenny referred to. That goes right back. to the very first thing that was written. about matter. The idea that if I can't. get my sense of of feeling important. from these people, I'll get them from. these perhaps less desirable people. Yeah, >> the longevity part is key. And that's. the one thing I'd really like to. underscore for your listeners and your. viewers is that there's about 10 studies. now that link mattering with better. self-reported health. And and two of. them involve objective measures. So that.

you'll see a link with blood pressure, heart rate, positive chemicals versus. the the negative chemicals and that's. now been implicated well in terms of. quicker aging and mortality. And it goes. back to what I was saying about. loneliness as being a predictor of. earlier death. So I really see the. feeling of mattering or not mattering as. as a life or death thing. And you know, ideally people are going to be able to. have a sense of mattering because it it. cuts down on the stress. If somebody's. leading a life of not mattering, they're.

leading a life of extreme and chronic. stress. >> Yeah. And danger endangering themselves. and possibly other people. >> Well, when you feel like you don't. matter, you feel like you're going. through this world alone. >> And we know from an evolutionary. perspective that we are wired to matter. We are wired to be important to the band. to the group and to not matter to the. group means to be pushed out and to our. earliest ancestors that meant death and. we are wired and as Gourd puts it is.

life or death. It is life or death. >> All right. Thank you Dr. Flet or Gourd. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much to you. >> Thank you so much to be as well. Uh I'm. wondering Jenny when you were asking. these questions of people around the. world that we started uh our podcast. talking about you know do you matter? Do. you think that you matter to someone? Did just asking the question cause a lot. of people to reflect in a way that.

your interest made them feel like they. mattered? >> Yes, they were very open to talking. about it. Um, what I found often were. the people who were saying they didn't. feel like they mattered, they were going. through a life transition. So, either. they had lost a loved one that they felt. very valued by or maybe facing an empty. nest or maybe they'd lost a job or. relocated. I experienced that myself. when I was a a newlywed moving to. London. When you go through a. transition, we tend to personalize the. experience. We think, "Oh, it's so.

painful. There must be something wrong. with me that I'm not coping well with. this change." But transitions in and of. themselves are a hard thing to do, right? We're going from one role to. another role. And if we can look at them. through the lens of mattering, that. offers us a pathway through the. transition. So if you're going through a. a painful transition, look for role. models. Look for people who have gone. through something similar and. >> and gotten through it. >> And gotten through it, use their life as. almost like a blueprint for yourself, a.

little map. Yeah. And then there's one. other thing that I write about in the. book is the power of invitation. So it. is accepting invitations and issuing. invitations. >> and offering them. >> When we are going through something. hard, we are often reluctant to reach. out to people or to accept because we. feel like we have to get our lives. together. But there's research called. the beautiful mess effect, which is the. idea that we think we need to be perfect. to be loved. But actually when we are. going through something hard, when we. are authentic and open about it, that it.

actually brings people closer to us. because they trust us more. They think. we're authentic. So if you are going. through something hard, >> they trust you because they see the see. and feel the vulnerability. >> They do. They see you as a human, someone they can trust. Um, and if you. were not getting invitations, I. interviewed this woman who went through. a horrible divorce, >> didn't want to be a fifth wheel out to. dinner. And so she was complaining to. her therapist that her social life was. zero. And the therapist said, "Then you. start hosting dinner parties. You start. inviting your girlfriends to your house.

Reboot your social life. You have. agency." Yeah. >> That is a big message in the book that. if you are feeling like you don't. matter, you need to know you are one. decision. You are one step away from. mattering again. >> That's right. And you talk often in the. book about reaching out to somebody. else. You know, one of the things um I I. remember when I read the story in the. book that you share about a military. wife. Um we went to a military base and. did a whole show with military wives and. treated them to wonderful things because.

as you say in the book, so many military. wives feel alone. They feel like they. don't matter. They feel like they've. sacrificed. military sp spouses are. going through something called silent. scaffolding holding everything together. but they still feel invisible. So Simone. Gindo is also a journalist who wrote a. book called the wives a memoir and she's. joining us from her home in Washington. Hi Simone tell us about that feeling of. invisibility. >> Hi Oprah. Hi Jenny. Just first of all.

thanks so much for having me. It is an. absolute honor to be here. >> Thank you. Um well, you know, really at. the very beginning of my journey of. becoming an army wife, I immediately was. swimming in those waters of. invisibility. My husband, it was back in. 2012. He joined a rapidly deployable. combat unit in the army and I left my. job as an editor in New York City and. packed up a U-Haul and we drove south to. Columbus, Georgia.

>> Oh, two weeks later. >> It's a long way. It was a long way and I. left everything I know I knew behind. I'd never been south of the Mason Dixon. line and I didn't even have a driver's. license to get myself around. I was that. much of a fish out of water. And two. weeks after we arrived, [clears throat]. my husband deployed to Afghanistan. And. on one level, I knew what I was signing. up for. I knew he was going to deploy. and go train. But it was such an.

isolating experience. I felt so alone so. immediately and I couldn't call him and. if he could call me it was over these. monitored phone calls and especially in. the beginning both of us were getting. this messaging that we we needed to be. as quiet as possible about where he was. what he was doing so he was so nervous. in the beginning I remember asking him. what he had for breakfast and he said we. I can't talk about that and so really my.

husband my closest connection. I just. kind of felt like I I'd lost him. overnight. And it was confusing, too, because we get this messaging from. commanders that, you know, we are. essential. They can do what they do. because of you. They're training and. deploying at this break neck speed, and. you are keeping it together. Like you. said, you are the silent scaffolding at. home, keeping it together. >> And that's true. And also really our. primary job is to be silent and.

invisible and to not let on where he's. going. And there's really so many facts. of our lives we can't share with our. loved ones. And that can make you feel. pretty invisible. >> What helped to make you start to feel. like you mattered? Well, luckily I didn't know anybody. except the woman across the street. >> who was a wife in the same unit and she. was as new to this world as I was. And. we had gone to the deployment drop off.

together and seen each other cry but. otherwise knew nothing about each other. And that first week after our husbands. left, I remember looking through the. blinds, watching her drive to the store, watching her wash the dishes. It sounds. a bit stalkerish. and feeling like I. wanted to reach out but wondering if you. know it's what Jenny was saying like I. felt like maybe I wasn't doing this. right like she knew how to do this she. was doing great she felt strong and I on. the other hand was not doing so well in.

my new life um so I was nervous but. thankfully she was bold she reached out. she said come over for TV and wine and I. basically ran over there in my pajamas. and that night we had this really. intimate conversation I because we both. needed someone to talk to so much. And. I'll never forget it. At the end of the. night, she said, "Thank you for opening. up to me." And it's so simple those it. it's such a simple phrase, but it really.

stunned me, I think, because it shifted. my perspective on how you show up in a. relationship, in a friendship. I think I. had thought that to share my struggles. was that I was a burden if I did that. and she was saying, "No, it's it's a. gift." And that just that phrase in and. of itself was an invitation. And after. that, we went on to cook each other. dinner, as you talked about. We went. grocery shopping together. She taught me. how to drive. Later, during a really.

rough deployment, I had pretty bad. paranatal anxiety with my first. pregnancy, and she had a toddler at that. point. And I spent so many nights at her. house, which at that point was a mile. away that my maps app started. registering her address as home. >> Oh. >> And you know, that was she was my. lifeline. And it was we were necessary. to our spouses and we were necessary to. each other, but with each other, we got. to feel seen and heard and really share.

the secret of our lives. >> Why did you include the story in the. book, Jenny? It resonated so much with. me. You don't have to be a a military. spouse uh to feel that feeling of um. being so necessary to so many other. people and yet your needs not being. prioritized. And I think what Simone. hits on is something that we don't talk. enough about in our culture, which is. the idea that our resilience rests on. the depth and support of our. relationships. So, we are sold this bill. of goods by the multi-billion dollar.

wellness industry to download, you know, to to to light a candle or to soak in a. bubble bath and you'll be resilient. Those are great stress reducers, but. they do not give us the resilience we. need to show up day in and day out uh as. as the sturdy adults that we want to be. uh for the people that we care about. It's only in our deep relationships. And. decades of of research show this, that. resilience rests on relationships. And. Simone's story shows just that.

>> Yeah. Simone, thank you for joining us. in this conversation. Thank you. >> Thank you so much, Oprah. >> Yeah. And I'm glad you just reached out. She was just across the street. I can. see you opening the curtain looking. There she's going now. There. That's. beautiful story. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Well, Christina is from Georgia and. posted this on Tik Tok. Watch. I wasn't. allowed to be a full person growing up. And because of that, I struggle a lot. with trusting that people are genuinely.

interested in me and that people want to. hear from me because my parents didn't. genuinely emotionally engage with me or. try to. be interested and actively interested. in. me as a person. It feels like a constant. daily battle. M Christina is joining us. Hi Christina. >> Hi. >> Hi Christina. >> What happened when you shared that post. on Tik Tok?

>> Um that post brought me so much comfort. um to know that other people felt the. same way as me and what I was feeling. Um you see I moved around a lot as a. kid. I would be at one school in the. fall and a new one in the spring. And. with that experience, it brought. feelings of like instability and also. isolation because it was hard to form. deep bonds and make roots in a place.

>> Mhm. Mhm. >> And so um my family became my emotional. world. And when I was in that world, I. had to suppress a lot of myself. >> because your family didn't understand. what you were going through. >> Yes. >> Right. Uh, I read that your mother, you. know, wanted to move up in the world and. every time you were pulled out of. another school, they were just like, "Get over it." They didn't understand. the emotional toll that was taking on. you as a little girl. >> And that happened going to another place. and making new friends and being the one.

walking in who is not like everybody. else because all the other kids had. already started school. So, that had a. great impact on you. >> significantly. um it's even harder to make connections. Now I'm I am in therapy though and in. therapy I have been building a sense of. self. >> and the next stage that I'm working on. is building deeper connections in. relationships.

>> So what's your question? What's your. question for Jenny? Um, my question is, when you're trying to show up for. another person, but your needs aren't. being reciprocated and they make you. feel like you don't matter, how do you. navigate those relationships? Oh, well, thank you first for telling. your story. And I have to say, I'm glad. you were validated through uh the people. on TikTok because what you're what. you're describing is not uncommon. Even. throughout our our entire lives, we will. struggle to make new friends. We will. relocate. We will change jobs. Building.

friendships is a skill and it's a skill. we can learn. Um, my question for you. is, is this person that you're talking. about someone that you need in your. life? Is this someone that you work with. or you you have in close proximity that. you can't get away from because you. deserve a reciprocal relationship and I. think you know that. So, I guess my. first question to you is, do you have to. be around this person? >> I don't think so. But it's more so. whenever I go out to events of similar.

people find meet people with similar. interests is where I might meet someone. who says they're really interested and. want to be my friend but then I show an. effort and it maybe they flake or they. something comes up or. >> it's not reciprocated. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Oprah and I were talking about. this whole flake culture. >> Yes. uh and how corrosive it is for. building trusting relationships. >> Earlier in the show, AA Garden was here.

and we were saying that the one thing. that you can count on for AA is that if. she says she's going to show up, she. shows up. And we were just saying we're. that we're that kind of woman, too. If I. tell you I'm going to do something, I'm. going to do it. I'm going to follow. through. And this whole, "Oh, I'm so. sorry. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do.". It's just not even a I don't have. friends like that. >> I have a very low tolerance for it. >> I have a low tolerance for it. Yes. So, I'm happy to hear you have a low. tolerance for it, too. Actually, >> that's what that means. [laughter]. That's what this means. >> And so, when I was your age and I was.

moving cities and changing and had to. make new friends, one of the ways that I. was able to find friends who shared my. values were doing things that sort of. reflected my values. So, for example, I. uh I work with the homeless here in New. York and so I was volunteering and so I. was able to meet people who at their. core had the same interests and so I. wonder if where you're looking for. friendships could be shifted so that it. reflects more about who you are and what.

matters most to you and look for the. people there. >> Yeah, it's really touching to hear that. Um, occasionally I go on Sundays to make. sandwiches for the homeless. So, it was. very touching to hear your experience. and going to keep on trying. >> Oh, keep going. And you are right to to. think that you are worthy of a. friendship that's reciprocal. And I'm so happy to hear that you're. working on yourself because what I have. found in my research is that we need to. learn how to matter to ourselves.

And when we can matter to ourselves, it. it raises the bar on the kind of people. we will allow in our lives. Thank you, Christina. Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. Also, in the book, you share this remarkable story about. Ruhan. I love that story. Can you share. it briefly before we meet him? >> Oh my gosh, he's remarkable. We could do. a whole hour on him. Um, so as a young. child, he his family struggled. He he. struggled with food insecurity. when he. graduated high school, uh he became a.

sanitation worker, felt very proud to be. serving his city that way, but also felt. invisible in that uniform. >> He had people in his life from the very. beginning who invested in him. His. co-workers invested and pushed him to. live out his dream, which was to go to. college. He went to college. He didn't. just go to college. He went all the way. to Harvard Law School. His story is. remarkable. >> Okay, so Ruhan is joining us from New. York. Hi Rouhan. >> How are you doing? Thank you so much for. having me. >> So glad to see you.

>> Likewise. Likewise. >> So, we want to know I'm so fascinated by. the story Jenny tells in Mattering about. your taking on the job as a sanitation. worker. And what what struck me is that. moment where you you and a couple of. other of your co-workers were painting a. dumpster, I think, right? You're. painting a dump. Tell tell us about that. moment. I'll never forget that. Actually, I. remember that was in I was at a.

different yard that day on Pulk Street. in Washington DC. I was barely ever at. that yard. >> On this given day, a lot of people were. walking by us, but there was a mother. walking with her son. >> How old was the son? I was trying to. picture how. >> it had he had to have been somewhere. between the ages of like seven and nine. >> Okay. >> Really young. >> Yeah. But I remember she like bent down. towards her and like pointed at us, but. she tried to whisper, but she just. wasn't that good at whispering. But she.

said, you know, don't be like them. And. you know, at this time, you know, I was. working a full-time job, you know, there. while also being in school full- time. And it was just interesting where I just. remember I was really trying my best at. this point because my father had just. suffered a stroke. And I just remember. like that was just very demoralizing. Like I'll never forget that day like. ever. >> when when the mother is walking by with. her son and she points to you and your. fellow co-workers and says don't be like. them. But you know what that became a.

motivating force for you? It sounds like. >> definitely you know um my father was in. the sanitation industry, my brother was. in the sanitation industry and you know. I had I had nothing but pride to be. there do what we had to do. Uh there was. nothing wrong with the profession. I. loved my co-workers. I loved my bosses. And so again, I just had to take the. time to put in the work to just show. people what we're made of. >> But but tell share for us how people how.

invisible you were to other people as a. sanitation worker. Can we talk about. that? >> So my primary job was cleaning up the. dumpster. So like a dumpster might be. out, let's say, in a city for like a. year or so or maybe like 5 months and. then when it starts breaking down, they. have to bring the dumpster back to. refurbish it. So that was that was my. division. And you would never believe. like what you would find in those. dumpsters. Like one, one time I found a. grenade. There was a grenade in that.

dumpster. There was like so many. needles, glasses, etc. things that are. not actually supposed to go into this. type of trash because um when we're. actually cleaning it up, you know, people get hurt all the time. Um. >> there are so many things that can go. wrong when you're actually cleaning. these things out. >> And it's just those types of moments. where you kind of realize people aren't. really even being considerate of. >> course. Yeah. cuz the trash has to go. somewhere. And you know, we're just one. of the few people that has to it passes.

through on its way to its final. destination. And quite frankly, not just. that, but again, even like when people. are um walking past us at the yard, well, depending on what yard we're in, but sometimes if you're at a specific. yard where people are walking by, people. like will throw things into the dumpster. that we're cleaning like as we're. cleaning it. >> Yeah. No regard. No regard for you as a. human being. >> being a real person at all. >> Not in the slightest. >> No. Okay. So, were you working to earn.

money for college or school or was it. going to be a permanent job? How do you. go from being a sanitation worker to. Harvard? >> Well, I just got really lucky. Um, what. ended up happening was I was doing. really good in martial arts when I was. in high school. I was winning so many. national titles across the country and. eventually we were transitioning into. boxing. I ended up having a really bad. injury in my left shoulder and from. there I just wanted to be able to help.

out my father who was raising us by. himself for like the last like 10 years. And so upon that I ended up going to. work for the sanitation company. Ended. up doing like really really really well. there. and my two co-workers like went. to talk to the owner of the sun and they. realized, you know, this guy has a lot. of potential. Maybe he should go and try. something else. So, essentially, um the. owner of the trash company pushed me to. go to college. He helped me get into. Buoie State University and then from.

there I had access to I had a food. scholarship, I had tutors, etc. And then. I became a 4.0 O student. And from. there, I just transferred to the. University of Maryland. And my father. had suffered a stroke. And so that's why. I started working full-time as a. sanitation worker while also being in. school full-time. I had the best dad in. the world. So when he went down, I just. knew I had to do something to keep this. going. And so I didn't want to give up. school. I wanted to make sure the bills. kept getting paid. And so from there, I. graduated speaker of the class and then.

went on to Harvard Law School. >> Wow. Oh, you say it like until I got a. 4.0 Oh, and then I did this and then I I. want people to read your story uh in. Jenny's book, Mattering, but tell us. about being at Harvard and the day you. saw one of the custodians in the hallway. and tell us what happened in that. moment. >> Yeah, I remember I was walking down this. empty hallway and then this uh custodian. walked towards me and I simply just.

said, "Hi, how are you doing?" And she. said, "Are you talking to me?" And. >> I said, "Yes, how are you doing?" And. then she said again, "Are you talking to. me?" I said, "Yeah.". >> That makes me want to cry. >> I know. Yeah. >> And and and I said, "Yeah, I'm talking. to you." And she said, "I'm sorry. I'm. sorry. Uh students don't talk to me. Students would rather look at the wall. than talk to me." Direct quote. >> And to which I said, I said, "That's. effed up." Uh to the degree that you. want. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> To the degree that you want. Like I'll. be happy to talk to you. I I would love.

to talk to you whenever I get a chance. to see you. And after that moment, you. know, I just it just sat with me for a. long time. Uh I just. >> Well, that sits with me too. You know. why? And I hope everybody listening. That's how you let somebody know they. matter. >> People who are the most unseen, the. people holding the doors, the doormen, the sanitation workers, the custodians, the housekeepers in a hotel. I always. make sure I stop and say hello to those. people regardless of what's going on. >> That makes the biggest difference in the.

world. >> Yeah. And and so when I um went home, I. basically just said, I want to create. some type of organization. just to make sure that this population. gets uplifted and gets like the. treatment that they deserve. And so. essentially, I ended up raising like. $70,000 over the course of the rest of. that year. And then we ended up creating. the reciprocity effect, essentially just. nonprofit that basically just wants to. uplift and show love to blue collar. support staff workers. >> Didn't you have a party for all of them? That's how we um uh were able to raise.

the money and. >> you had a party for all the custodians. around the school. >> Yeah, >> exactly. >> How did you even organize that? >> Well, they saw me all around the school. So, when I started raising money for. this event, I knew I wanted to create. this big banquet for the support staff. workers. So, essentially, >> cool. So from that moment um I was. pretty much from the point I was raising. the money because I we had the um event. in my 3L year but I was working on it. since the middle of my second year of.

law school. >> Wow. >> So from that whole point I was raising. money and also marketing for it. collectively. And the reason the way the. way I was like really happy about it we. had over 200 people turn out and there. was like a quote from one of the uh. custodians that like sits with me till. this day. She came up to me after the. event and she said she was one of the. people who got an award and she told me, "I've never seen my son so proud of me.". >> And till this day, like that just gives. me goosebumps and I'm just I'm just. truly grateful that we had the support.

to pull that off. >> So you're in the book Mattering, Jenny's. book, Mattering. When you were doing. this, were you doing it because you. wanted to matter or you wanted other. people to know they mattered or was that. even a part of your thinking? You know, the way I always like thought about this. question was this is just how my dad. raised me. I remember just watching my. dad as I was growing up and he just. always made sure that people felt seen, people got loved. He was like the. neighborhood dad. Just not my dad, but.

the neighborhood dad. And I just think. as I go throughout my life, it was just. my natural way of going about things. I. just happen to have the resources at. time to take this to another level. But. >> quite frankly, I just didn't think about. it. It was just the way my dad raised me. to be. >> Well, I expect to see great things from. you, sir. >> Thank you so much. >> You have such a big heart and you're. grounded in a value system that's going. to take you a long way. And just reading.

your story and now having a chance to. actually hear your voice and connect. with you, you make me proud. >> Thank you so much. And uh thank you so. much Jenny for even um allowing me to be. a part of this book and just allowing me. to be here. Thank you to both of you. >> It's such an honor to be able to tell. your story. Thank you for sharing it. >> Thanks Ran. Thank you so much for. showing us how to make other people feel. like they matter. It's such a powerful. story. You know, most people spend most. of our waking hours at work and there.

are a lot of people who you research in. the workplace and you found that many. people are desperate to feel like. they're they they matter at work and a. lot of people are are anxious to leave. because. they don't feel like they matter. >> Yeah, we there's a statistic 70% of our. workforce is disengaged. What is. disengagement at work? When you feel. like you don't matter at work, when you. feel invisible or replaceable or you.

have to endure rudeness and incivility, that sense of feeling like you don't. matter is painful. So, a coping strategy. for that is actually distancing. ourselves and disengaging, quiet, quitting. These are these are um the. results of feeling like you don't. matter. So even the least human-. centered workplaces should be. incentivized to lead with mattering. because what we know is that engagement. leads to productivity leads to. creativity, better teamwork, higher.

profits. So there are ingredients to. mattering. Um it's been studied since. the 80s and I've sort of created this. acronym said to remind me of the. ingredients of the main ingredients of. mattering. So what does it feel like to. matter at work or in our friendships or. in our families? It's to feel. significant, appreciated, invested in, and depended on. So significant, it. doesn't mean, you know, needing a toast.

or an award at work. What struck me was. how often people said when I asked them. if they mattered that it was the small. things that somebody appreciated what. they said or made them feel like they. were critical to the team, that we. couldn't have done this without you. You're an important person here. We need. you here. Appreciation. >> Can you imagine how those custodians. felt after that celebration of them at. Harvard? Yeah. >> Well, feeling significant is feeling. noticed. Yes. Right. When you walk into. a room, people are making eye contact. and asking about you.

>> Appreciation is I like to think of it as. appreciating the doer behind the deed. M. >> so if you have a colleague who's always. you know uh planning u you know cocktail. parties after work happy hours instead. of saying to them thank you so much for. this fun night you could say thank you. for being such a community builder here. because of you our team is so much. closer um I I'm grateful to you uh. feeling invested in is what what we saw. um with Rahan that it's having people in.

your life who are invested in your. well-being being invested in your goals. and also having people in your life that. you're invested in their goals and in. their well-being. And then the last is. feeling dependent on knowing that you. are trusted and relied on in the. workplace. You are trusted to do. something and that the workplace. wouldn't be the same without you there. >> Yeah. I remember uh in in in mattering. you spoke to one guy who said he didn't. feel like he mattered anymore because.

nobody depended nobody depended on him. anymore. That happens a lot in. retirement. That happens a lot in the. late stages in aging. We think about, you know, wealth span and health span, you know, how how healthy we'll be, how. much money we'll have to retire. We need. to think about our mattering span. We. need to think about how will we matter. to 100 and beyond. That is what we need. to live this rich, meaningful life that. all of us deserve. >> So, is that the message you want to. leave our listeners with for how how to.

matter or matter to other people? Well, I want to leave them with the idea that. if you are feeling like you don't. matter, you are one action away from. mattering again. And here's one. challenge that I've been issuing to. myself and I'll offer to you. >> that everyone I meet, whether they are. strangers or friends or family, I. picture them with a sign around their. necks saying, "Tell me, do I matter?". We can all answer that question with. warmth, with a smile, with kindness, with compassion instead of judgment.

>> We are starved in this modern world. We. are starved of mattering. Be a mattering. agent. Be somebody that makes people. feel like they matter. Boy, there's no. greater calling than that. >> Wow. So well said. We're going to end it. there. There's so much more and so many. more ideas in the book. I think. everybody should pick up a copy of. Mattering, the secret to a life of deep. connection and purpose. If you're. looking for deep connection and purpose, there are lots of ideas and thoughts and.

stories about how to get there in this. book, Mattering. It's available wherever. books are sold. And I thank you again, Aina Garden. We love you so much for. stopping by. Thank you, Dr. Flet, Simone, Ruhan, Christina. Thank you, Jenny. >> Oh, Oprah, thank you. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Thank you for the Mattering. Institute. Wow. Thanks. >> Thank you. You can subscribe to the Over. Podcast on YouTube and follow us on. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks.

everybody.