HAPPINESS PROFESSOR: How to Discover the Meaning of Your Life with Oprah and Arthur C. Brooks

And you describe the problem as a doom. loop. You say it is. You're on campus. every day. And what are you seeing from. your students on campus? A lot of people. who are bored or anxious, they drink too. much alcohol because it temporarily. relieves their boredom and anxiety. The. problem is it comes back with a. vengeance. You can get into a doom loop. with booze. You can get into a doom loop. with gambling, [music] with lots and. lots of things in life where it helps. you a little and then it hurts you a lot. and then it creates the problem it's. supposed to solve and so you do it more. That's how doom loops work. And the same. thing is true with technology.

And the average American looks at their. phone. 205 times a day. That's 13 [music] times per waking hour. or more than once every 5 minutes. Are. you in the Are you in that group? [music]. >> I would definitely say so. And he says. the answer is not because they are. addictive. It is that people. >> [music]. >> are bored out of their minds. >> [music]. >> Hi everybody. Welcome to the Oprah. podcast.

I'm out of the tea house on a trip to. beautiful New York. And it's always so. great to be in this vibrant city. I. wanted to ask you all to take a moment. to think about how you would answer. these questions for yourself. Whether. you're driving in your car right now or. on a walk or hike right now or in the. kitchen doing whatever you do there. I. wonder if you can get still just for a. second and ask. am I living a life I love? Do I feel my life has purpose? Am I.

living a life I love? Do I feel my life. has purpose? And here's the biggie. What. is the true meaning of my life? So, I know these are intense questions. and if you don't have the answers, don't. worry cuz you're not alone. We have read. that in the past decade there's been an. upsurge of people reporting that life. feels for them meaningless. That's a. word that people actually use, as well. as a rise in loneliness, in anxiety, and.

depression. So, what is the key to. finding the meaning of your life? How do. you live a beautiful life you love? My. guest is somebody who may have the. answers for you. I know for sure that. he's certainly done the research for. you, and he's one of the best people who. can guide and help you. find for yourself along this path some. happiness and some meaning. Arthur Brooks is a world-renowned social. scientist who studies happiness. His.

class at the Harvard Business School. always has a waiting list. His columns. [music] for the Free Press are a. must-read, and now he's an expert. contributor for CBS. In 2022, Arthur's. book From Strength to Strength debuted. at number one on the New York Times. bestseller list. A year later, Build the. Life You Want, a book we co-authored, also debuted at number one. [music]. Now, Arthur and I are talking again, this time to discuss his latest book, The Meaning of Your Life: >> [music]. >> Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness.

The Harvard happiness professor and. number one New York Times bestselling. author Isn't it good to say that about. yourself? >> It does, and it's even better because. the number one New York Times. bestselling book was co-written with. you. Oh, thank you. Um it's a book we. did together, but this book is called The Meaning of. Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of. Emptiness. Welcome back, Arthur Brooks. I mean, >> Thank you. I say you are a bad dude. You're going to write a book on the. meaning of life. I mean, that is the. number one question, and you are you.

have the nerve Arthur Brooks. >> It's some nerve, I know. I know. You. managed to take it on. >> to avoid it for the longest time. I. mean, I I I knew it was on my mind, it. was on my heart, and I thought, "I'm not. a philosopher." Yeah. But then I started. to see the science, and once 1 + 1 = 2. and started to add up with respect to. what was actually happening in our. society, And to understand it better. That's when the book actually came out. But I've been working on this for 5. years. Really? >> Yeah. And so when did this you call this. the hardest book that you've ever. written? No surprise when you were.

tackling actually the meaning of life. And you've been working on it for 5. years. Why did you want it written now? I I wrote it now because it was actually. ready. But I started seeing the problem. when I came back to the university. I. was gone. I'm a I'm an old-time college. professor, but I was gone for a long. time. Mhm. I was running a company for. 11 years as a CEO. And during that time. I wasn't paying very much attention. I. left academia in 2008. I came back in. 2019 and the world changed while I was. gone. A lot of people know what I'm.

talking about right now who are who are. watching us right now. In 2008, university life was better than ordinary. life. You're falling in love. You're. making friends. You're You're studying. crazy new ideas that are blowing your. mind. And in 2019, I came back and there. was more depression than I'd ever seen. There was more anxiety. There was more. loneliness. There was more anger. on campuses. And I thought, "This is. crazy. This is worse than the life. outside than I would see." And I said, >> 2019, that's a pre-COVID, right? That's. pre-COVID. But boy, it sure was a hard.

time in the lives of university. students. And And And for that matter, for people under 30. Something happened. during that decade. So you know, I'm a. scientist. I'm going to be like Sherlock. Holmes here. I I started getting on the. case, right? >> Say what happened during that decade. >> Exactly right. >> Okay, sum it up for us. What happened? >> So what happened was. something changed in the way that people. were living that somehow. put a blockage in their happiness. Now, you and I both know that happiness is a. combination of three things. Enjoyment. of life, satisfaction with your.

accomplishments, and the meaning of. life. So I started looking at it. Enjoyment, same as it's always been. Young people enjoy life probably more. than you and I do. But satisfaction. among my students at Harvard, super. high. They have tons of achievements. They're They're strivers. Mhm. But. meaning, when I started talking about. meaning, boy, their faces really fell. And I started looking at the data. So, people have satisfaction. Yeah. They're. certainly have enjoyment. >> Right. Out doing all the things and more. things to even do. >> Exactly. Okay.

But more and more people started telling. you there was no meaning to it. >> know what I'm meant to do. My life feels. meaningless. And it turns out the data. backs it up. The number one predictor of. being depressed and anxious under 30 is. saying my life feels meaningless. >> Okay. So, in the book, you begin the. book by actually defining meaning, which. I thought was a good thing. So, break it. down for us. >> Yeah, the meaning of meaning. And that's. one of the reasons it took me a long. time to write this book because, you. know, I mean, that sounds like a the. punchline to a, you know, a cartoon in. the New Yorker or something. The meaning. of life. It's too big, right? No. It.

turns out that meaning is really a. combination of three things, three. questions, three why questions in life. >> Yes. The first is called coherence. Why. do things happen the way they do? Yes. >> to have an answer to that. Some people. answer it like you and I are religious. people and and and and we believe in. science and those are great ways to. answer the why do things happen the way. they do. Some people they resort to. conspiracy theories for that. >> Yes. >> And so, the people who are watching us. >> Too many people. Yeah. And when when. people who are watching us, they have a. a relative who's gone down the rabbit. hole on the internet really into.

conspiracy theories, that's a cry for. help about meaning. That's what it is. So, you can yell at them and say, "You. idiot. Why don't you respect science?". No, no, no, no. They're they're they're. unhappy because they lack meaning and. that's because this coherence thing is. missing. You need to meet that with love. and give them a better solution for. coherence. That's number one. Oh, okay. Right. Number two is purpose. Yeah. And. purpose is something to do. Purpose is. goals and direction. Why am I doing what. I'm doing? A lot of people can't answer. that. They feel like they're going in. circles, kind of like a cruise ship.

You're not going from one place. Humans. are made to get someplace. And that's a. really important idea for the meaning of. life. If you don't know why you're doing. what you're doing, no purpose, no meaning, no happiness. >> Okay, so number one is coherence. >> Coherence. That's why my why things. happen the way they do. Number two is. purpose. Why am I doing what I'm doing? Mhm. And last but not least, this is the. big one. It's significance. Why does my. life matter and to whom? You know, if you don't know why your. life matters, you know, and it which.

basically means you don't have love in. your life. >> Yeah. cuz your life matters to people. who love you. That's right. >> Your life matters to God. >> also, Arthur, the one thing that I. learned all those years on the Oprah. show that everybody is looking for. significance. They're all looking to. know that that what I say matters, you. see me, and that I matter. That's the. that's the number one thing. >> And this is something that you've done. in an extraordinary way that when. somebody talks to you who doesn't even. know you, you see them. I've been on. public with you. Mhm. And everybody. wants to talk to Oprah Winfrey, and you. look at them in the eyes. They get a.

little bit of oxytocin, that. neuropeptide. They feel significant. because you actually see them. You give. them a little bit of meaning. That's a. gift. That's an incredible gift. >> Yeah, we all have the ability to do. that. Everybody does. But in this. society, you know, we don't really look. at people. We don't really pay attention. to people. So so so what do people need. in life? They need an explanation for. what's going on. They need a direction. and set of goals, and they need to be. seen. That's meaning. Yeah. You know, we. now live in this age where everybody.

just thinks you can Google it. Yeah. The. meaning of life, literally. The meaning. of life, you can Google it, you can chat. GPT it, you can look it up, and there it. is. Explain what we need to do to start. On page 76 of The Meaning of Your Life, Arthur Brooks provides a quiz to. readers. It's the same one he gives to. his students at Harvard Business School. Arthur writes, "Think deeply about what. exactly you do believe and why. Consider. five alternative explanations for why. things happen in life." He asks, "Do you.

believe things happen because of the. decisions I make freely? Things happen because of decisions. others make. Things happen because of. the determined physical properties of. the universe. Things happen because of the will of a. higher being. Things happen out of sheer. randomness. What do you believe? Cross out those you reject completely, then put a number in front of the others. from most to least important. Author. says, "When you do this, you will find a.

heightened sense of the true meaning of. your behaviors and your actions, allowing you to work on your habits and. then alter them to be consistent with. your beliefs.". Is that where we began to help determine. Questions are everything. And here's the. weird thing. Remember when we were kids, there was this really famous gorilla. named Koko. Remember Koko the gorilla? And Koko the gorilla was really famous. because this primatologist named Penny. Patterson in California trained this. gorilla to to to have a vocabulary of a. thousand words in sign language. And so.

and so and so Koko the gorilla, I mean, had a an obituary in the New York Times. I'm not going to have an obituary in the. New York Times. Had covers on the. National Geographic, kids books because. it kind of blurred the lines between. people and animals a little bit. But it. turns out it didn't. Because there's one. thing that Koko the gorilla never did, not once. She never asked a single. question. The essence of being fully. alive as a human is not answering. questions. A computer can do that. >> memorizing words. Yeah, not having the. vocabulary. It's asking questions. That's what it means to be a fully. alive, is to be curious person about the.

big questions that actually don't even. have answers. >> Most importantly, what you emphasize in. the meaning of life is the questions. that you are willing to ask yourself. >> Exactly right. Which are these big. questions And and here's the thing. It's. a meaning question if you can't Google. it. If you can Google a question, that. just means it's a mechanical thing with. a complicated answer. And that's what. ChatGPT does. That's the reason that AI. will never make us happier. Is because. all it does is the same thing that Koko.

the gorilla did, except better, which is. answering basic questions like, "What do. you want for lunch?". Uh in the introduction, I love this, that you write, "There actually is. something missing in people's lives, and. people are really wasting huge. amounts of time. in a simulated. life." Explain what you mean by that. >> So, this is funny because when I'm when. I do when I do research, you know, back. back in the old days, economists would.

talk about markets and all that. Then. they'd go walk around factories and talk. to workers. So, so that's the right way. to do research. You look at the data and. do the analysis and be a wonk. But, then. go talk to the humans. And so, this is. what I do. I start doing a lot of. interviews of people and listen to the. words that come out of their mouths. The. first set of words that come out of. their mouths is this thing about. meaning. That's how But, but, but then. when the penny really dropped for me, I. was talking to this this guy, 27 years. old, and I said, "Yeah, my life feels. meaningless." He's kind of flat in his. affect, right? And he said and I said, "Well, tell me about your day." And he. said, "Oh, you know, I get up and then.

first thing I do is I look at my phone. and then I go to work. That's on Zoom.". And then he says, "And after after Zoom. work, after all day, you know, I'm. I look at my you know, my dating profile. and you know, I maybe I swipe right, you. know, I'm I'm dating online. And and I. see all my friends on on social media. And then I like to, you know, I do a lot. of gaming cuz it gives me a sense of. accomplishment." And then he's sit. sitting sitting there and he says this. thing and boy, it really rocked my. world. He said, "It feels like I'm living in a. simulation.". Cuz he is. Cuz we are. You remember that old movie, The Matrix? Mhm. That that was 27 years.

ago. So, it was a long I know. I know. how the time passes. But, that was way. before AI. But, the plot of that movie. is that there's a a mechanical. artificial intelligence, a. supercomputer, that's running all of. humanity, taking the energy and. attention of humans, and is placating. them by simulating a a kind of a. pleasant life where they live in pods. Oprah, we're living in the Matrix. Mhm. And that's a problem because what that's. doing is it's simulating a real life in. the way that we use technology, the way. that we overuse technology, but you know.

the one thing you can't simulate? It's. the meaning of your life. That's something you got to live in real. life. >> the way you titled it, too. You didn't. say the meaning of life, but it's the. meaning of your life. And what I liked. about the book, um among other things, are the questions that you force us to. ask ourselves, like why things happen. the way they do, >> Right. and why, you know, am I doing. what I'm doing? >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. Yes. Yeah, and people don't don't.

ask themselves those questions very. much. And by the way, ChatGPT is never. going to give you the answers to that. cuz it can't. >> It's interesting. You scored differently than I scored. You talk about your score. For mine, it. was universe it was God first. Just like. me. Yeah. Just like me. That was first. >> was 4-3 and you were 4-1. I think you I. was four and then whatever the answer to. three was. >> Yeah, yeah. So, it's interesting. So, I'm I'm a son of my father. And so, what. we're referring to there is this the. question of why things happen the way. that they do, and there's a lot of. possibilities cuz God made it that way, because, you know, that people do things.

that they do because um the the the the. the the universe preordains it. There's. tons of randomness. Random was my last. thing. >> Yeah, yeah. So, my dad was a. statistician, a PhD biostatistician. He. believed in in in randomness in the. universe, but he was a super strong. Christian, too. And so, he said, "You. know that He said, "You know what the. You know what the greatest thing that. God ever created was?" And I said, "What?" And he said, "Miracles." And you. know what miracles are?" I said, "No, Dad, tell me what miracles are." He. said, "Long-tail events." Now, what that. means is random things that don't happen.

very often. That's how he thought God. made miracles. And so, here's the point. None of this stuff is incompatible. You. can believe in God and believe in. randomness, because you believe that God. made the universe in this wonderful way. that let things happen, let the chips. fall where they may, but you got to. think about it. >> Everybody needs to take that test. Get. the book just to take that test. I love. that. And I also love the test about. where do you stand in terms of presence. and searching? Beginning on page 12, Arthur Brooks offers a quiz that can. show you how much you know about the.

meaning of your life compared to what. you are still searching for. Your. results place you in one of four. categories: hopeful wanderer, lost in. place, relentless seeker, or happy. homebody. That's me for sure. You can take this test at. themeaningofyourlife.com. That's a quiz to find out how well. you're doing it. Because, you know, if. you're going to be in the search for for. meaning, you got to know where you're. starting. Right. >> To to to end up in in California, you. better know how far you are from.

California. That's what it comes down. to. And so, there's a test that does. that. >> So, social psychologist and author. Jonathan Haidt and I have had many. discussions. You all have seen them here. about um. the harmful effects technology is having. on young people. And you quote his. research in your book, and you describe. the problem as a doom loop. Say it is. You're on campus every day. What are. What are you seeing from your students. on campus? >> What I see is that people self-soothe. using technology. And And there's a. reason for that. People distract. themselves all the time. Now, this is.

nothing new. A lot of people who are. bored or anxious, they drink too much. alcohol because it temporarily relieves. their boredom and anxiety. The problem. is it comes back with a vengeance. You. can get into a doom loop with booze. You. can get into a doom loop with gambling, with lots and lots of things in life. where it helps you a little and then it. hurts you a lot and then it creates the. problem it's supposed to solve and so. you do it more. That's how doom loops. work. And the same thing is true with. technology. When people they're bored or. they're anxious or they're stressed or. they're lonely, the first thing they do. is they pull out their phones and they. become very very addicted to it. The.

trouble is it makes things worse. The. more you binge on it, the worse it gets. And that's a doom loop. And you got to. clip that doom loop. You got to get out. of the doom loop is what it comes down. to. Like anything else. I mean, if you. go to the doctor and say, "Ah, I can't. stop drinking." He's not going to say, "Well, let's deal with the underlying. problems that make you drink." I hope. your doctor does that, too, but the. first thing he's going to do is to try. to get you to stop drinking. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. >> of the doom loop. So, we have listeners. with questions for uh Professor Brooks. Uh I love calling you Professor Brooks.

>> [laughter]. >> I love hearing it. Max is a freshman at Fairfield. University in Connecticut. Hi there, Max. You told my producers that you are. trapped in a loop of procrastination and. doom scrolling. Tell us about it. Yeah, so pretty much I went through like. I mean, obviously last year I was in. high school still. I was kind of going. to school all day every day. I was had. this like structure that's built-in. structure. It was kind of mandatory in a. sense. And then even that continued. throughout the summer. I worked at an. oyster farm. Um and like that like structure was.

still there where I wasn't kind of just. like I didn't I didn't have. an excessive amount of free time. compared but then like even like I feel. like I noticed it super fast when I got. to school like. I. am kind of just like sitting around most. of the day twiddling my thumbs because I. kind of I realized that um. it's kind of it's a bit of a shock how. different how much free time I have and. I think I've kind of to fill that free. time rather than trying to be productive. like going to the gym. I have just.

turned into like to like complete like. doom scrolling. Um. I don't know. Just complete doom. scrolling nonstop. Okay, I just want to. read you what Arthur what Professor. >> No, no. Arthur Okay. Okay. [laughter]. Okay. I I got Arthur to me Professor. Brooks everybody is okay. Not. [clears throat] He writes on page 30. Not that long ago no one held a. smartphone, he says. The first iPhone. was delivered in 2007. Today 5 billion. people around the world have one in. their pocket and the average American.

looks at their phone. 205 times a day. That's 13 times per. waking hour or more than once every 5. minutes. Are you in the Are you in that. group? I would definitely say so. Okay. And he. says the answer is not because they are. addictive. It is that people are bored. out of their minds. Would you say so? Yeah, I think I also use it as kind of. like I see it as an escape to as a sense.

in a sense like I it's an escape from. like this anxiety that I have or like. this depression that I that I have. experienced in the past and I feel like. there's nothing that distracts me more. in the moment or it feels like there's. nothing that distracts me more in the. moment than technology. Yeah. >> Wow. Yeah. Yeah. >> a question for Arthur? Yeah, um I just. want to like how can I find meaning this. and happiness while at school? Yeah, no, I appreciate it, Max. And and and I hear. this all the time. To begin with, there's nothing weird about you. There's. nothing abnormal about that even though.

it feels really horrible. Think about it. this way. I'm going to make a prediction about. something your great-grandfather never. said when he came home to see your. great-grandmother at dinner. He never. said, "I had a panic attack behind the mule. today.". And here's the weird thing about that. To begin with, his brain was working the. way it was supposed to work. Our brains. were designed 250,000. years ago to work and work hard and have. relationships in real life. That's what. our brains are designed to do. And when. we don't do that, things are going to be.

wacky in our lives. And And that's what. you're experiencing. You're actually. looking to self-soothe normal problems. I mean, you go away and you go to. college and and there's anxieties, etc. etc. And you self-soothe in a way that. actually torques your brain. It's making. your brain work really, really. differently than it should. And so, the. answer is to live more like your. great-grandfather. Now, you you already. know this. You worked on an oyster farm. I have a son who when he was your age, it was the same problem, really addicted. to his phone. He went away and joined. the Marine Corps. And when you're He was.

a sniper in the Marine Corps. And And. when you're a sniper in the Marine. Corps, sorry, no phone. Yeah. And it's. hard and it's dangerous, and it's. physical. And I'm telling you it changes life. Mhm. You know, he came back to after 4. years of that married with a kid. And. his life has plenty of meaning. It's. what we actually find. You need to do. more hard stuff, Max. It's what it comes. down to. The problem is this, your. great-grandfather who was pretty bored. behind that mule, I guarantee you at the. end of his life he didn't say my life. was boring cuz his life wasn't boring.

The problem is you're trying to get rid. of the moments of boredom one after the. other, and the result is this adding up. to a boring life. And that's what's. giving you depression. That's what's. actually bringing you down. So, you need. to start doing harder things, picking up. heavy things, actually running around. And here's the number one thing I'd. recommend, go serve others. Go do. something that's actually hard that. requires that you give of yourself. And. when you dedicate yourself to those. things, the phone will be maybe not the. last thing on your mind, but it. certainly won't be the first thing on.

your mind. You'll rescue yourself. Look, you're completely normal. But the solution is as close as finding. a way to make the phone uninteresting to. you by being fully alive. Or just being. uh. another thing that you use responsibly. because it's there for. >> It's just a tool. Just a tool. That's. all it should be as a tool. It's what it comes down to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have You have the solution, Max. I see it in your eyes. You're going. to be fine. I promise you. Yeah. And. it's not something that you can't begin.

executing today because you tell the. story in The Meaning of Your Life about. this kid who. felt meaning when he had just fixed. somebody else's garbage disposal. >> Right. And tell tell that story to me. >> Yeah, so this is one of the stories that. actually begins the book where I'm. talking to a young man, his name is. Mark. And Mark was kind of walking me. through his day. And and and as you. know, he had moved from one city to. another and he he was working on Zoom. And and the result was it all added up. to he didn't have enough to do. And so, he spent his whole day He was winding up. spending his whole day online. And it.

made him feel really really really. empty. And he would even date online, he. would meet people. And the problem with. a lot of dating apps is that you meet a. lot of people, but you're not that. attracted to them. And that's a kind of. another problem that I often talk about. And so, he meets this woman, and and. they're having dinner, and she starts. talking to him. about a a dumb little problem she has. She says, "Okay, I my garbage disposal's. clogged up, and I don't know what to. do." And he's like really kind of a. mechanical guy, and he says, "I'll fix. it.". And she's like, "Huh?" And he wasn't. trying to trick her into letting him.

come home. He really wanted to fix her. garbage disposal. And so, he goes to her. house, and in 30 minutes fixes her. garbage disposal. She's blown away. She's super impressed. And he felt intense satisfaction doing. this thing for somebody else using his. hands in real life. That's the point, right? >> Yeah. That's the point, Max. And then he. goes home to his own house all by. himself, and he realizes his own garbage. disposal is clogged up, and it has been. for a year. And he never fixed it because it's not. for somebody else. Yeah. The. satisfaction came from doing it for.

somebody else. Yeah. For somebody else. >> I tell you, if you get out of yourself. and do something for somebody else, it. absolutely changes the way you see. yourself. >> Yeah, it does. Absolutely. All the best. to you, Max. Thank you, Max. >> too. Thank you for having me. All the. best. Thank you. Okay, Madison is a former student of. Professor Brooks, and she's living in. San Francisco. Welcome, Madison. Tell us. what you learned from the professor. here. Hi, Madison. Hi, Professor Brooks. Great to see you. Oprah, nice to meet you. Thanks so much.

for having me. I had the pleasure of. taking Arthur's class this year at HBS, Leadership and Happiness. Almost. everyone really refers to it as the. happiness class. I think the first thing. we learned on the first day was. understanding what true happiness means. It's not just an emotion, it's actually. fulfillment and getting to that over. time. And I appreciated the pillars that. Arthur would bring to you of what. actually ultimately drives fulfillment, drives meaning, family, faith, and. friends absolutely stuck out to me as.

those pillars. And. to the point that you all were just. speaking about looking outside yourself, it's easy in business school, especially. at Harvard, to be on the hedonic. treadmill of just more achievement, more. achievement. But ultimately, Arthur. really created this framework around how. we could both achieve for not only. ourselves and our goals, but also for. the betterment of others and those. pillars that we value, the communities. that we're in. And so, for me, I've. really been internalizing. post-graduation, entering back into the.

real world, how I might continue to do. that and have a personal mantra of being. a door opener, which I try to do through. my podcast called The Room Podcast. And. the idea is that everyone wants to be in. the room where it happens. I'm very. excited to be in this room today, but. more so being able to do that for others. with your platform, with the. opportunities you've been afforded, uh. that just keeps you energized to uh help. continue making others feel included and. in the room. I hear you have a question. for both of us.

I do. I guess. I loved how earlier you spoke to the. fact that you can create little moments. of meaning in other people's lives by. something as simple as eye contact. Mhm. Uh but of course, you both do that in. such a broader stage. I was fortunate to. get the Arthur Brooks podcast every. Monday, Tuesday in class. Uh and I'm sure that takes from you all. keeping that energy up, still being able. to have impact while keeping yourselves. energized. Do you have any advice for. how someone continues to sustainably. create impact outside of themselves?

Mhm. How would you answer that, Oprah? Um. well, for me, I know that creating. impact outside of myself is a part of my. calling. It actually is what I was born to do, is. to use my life in service to help other. people see their lives more fully. That's what The Oprah show was all those. years. That's what all the you know, in. the beginning of the young you know, when I was 21 and 22 and 19 working as a.

reporter, that's what I was leaning to. or moving to and feel fully realized in. that now. And this is what I know for. sure. I was saying this to a friend. recently who uh has suddenly received a. lot of fame and an attention is trying. to handle the fame and the person was. saying to me, "Well, how do you how do. you handle going out in public and. everybody just wants a piece of you and. everybody just wants a selfie and. everybody just want" I said, "What. you're doing when you're doing a selfie.

is not actually a selfie. It's. validation for that person. It's seeing. that person and allowing that person to. be seen by you in a way that makes them. feel like they matter. And if you are a. public figure, that is a part of your. service. You are in service to help. other people see themselves not just. seeing you as a celebrity, but seeing. the celebrity within themselves that. matters." And so, for me, it's never.

never been an issue because I see that. what I do and how who I am in the world. as a part of the service that is my. calling. That's why I've been blessed. with this. Is to share it. You know, I know what I know because I'm. supposed to share it. I'm not supposed. to keep it to myself. >> Beautiful. Beautiful. What do you what. how do you answer that? >> to begin with, I know your work, Madison. You're a. phenomenal student, super intelligent, and and your career is killing it. I. know this for a fact. I keep I keep in.

touch. I know this is going really well, but there's a danger behind that, which. is that you become a very very perfect. work machine. And then and then. everything you do is all about success, worldly success, money, power, fame. Why? Because that's how we count our. success. That's a really important thing. to keep in mind. Now, a couple of. different points. And my second point is. going to is going to is going to is. going to marry up with what Oprah just. said. The first point is that you're not. a work machine. You're a human being. You're a You're You're a child of God.

You're made for something besides. creating economic value is what it comes. down to. And that means you need a. portfolio of things that you're doing. with your life. You need things that are. actually creating value and lifting. people up including things that are not. acclaimed by the world and don't result. in any sort of financial compensation. So, that's a really important. understanding what leisure is. Leisure. is not chilling on a beach. Leisure is. really all about cultivating. relationships and deepening your. understanding of God and learning new. things that don't even pay. And you need.

to be able to have a part of your life. that actually does that. And the sooner. you do that, the better off you're going. to be, the more endurance your career is. actually going to have. That's point. one. But, here's the second point. And I. learned this from you because what you. just said is not just talk. I've seen. you doing this. This is amazing to me. People often ask me, you know, "What's. it like hanging out with Oprah Winfrey?". Cuz we wrote a book together. "What's it. like working with Oprah Winfrey?" It's a. case study in how to do it right. You're. actually a happy person. Most people who.

are successful as you aren't very happy. We know them. They're our friends. They're especially your friends. And and. and the reason for that is because money. doesn't make you happy per se. Power. certainly doesn't. And and fame is the. only one of life's rewards that you can. only ever be happy in spite of. Yes. We. got the data on that. Unless you see. this as as an anointing. You see this. not for you, but for somebody else. And. this is the first thing to offer up. Your success, Madison, is not for you.

Yeah. Your success is for other people. You're conforming yourself I I know. you're a religious person. You're. conforming your will to the will of God. And God's will is to love every other. person. And when you have success, you. say, "What does it mean? What does it mean? How am I going to. lift other people up and bring them. together with the success?" And when you. do. >> about that. You're so right about that. >> But you do it. >> Yeah. You do it. You live it every. single day. That's why you're a happy. person. >> Yeah. Be- and also why so many people we know.

who are also all have incredible levels. of success are are not happy. Because if. you're not using your success in service. to something bigger than yourself and. something other than yourself, it will. eventually, no matter how successful you. are, start to make you feel empty. It. will. Cuz you got to give it away. You. got to give it away. So when something. Next time something really wonderful. happens to you, say WWOD. What would Oprah do? No. [laughter]. No. No, but does this make sense to you,

Madison? Does this make sense, right? This absolutely makes sense. Both your. servant leadership mindset that you both. described that you've also been able to. use yourselves and showcase is so. incredible. And then also rising to the. calling. I feel like you both have had. specific callings in your heart that. you've heard from God to Arthur's point. And then not shying away from them, not. being afraid of them, not being. intimidated, but stepping into it. So. thank you both so much for that feedback. and advice. And thank you so much for. helping so many with these thoughts. Uh. Thank you, Madison. See what a See how.

great she is? I see how great she is. I. see how great she is. And I think this. idea of using, no matter where you are. in your life, we talked about this a. little bit on our last podcast. No. matter where you are in your life, using. what you do in service to others changes. the whole paradigm. Right. That's right. I mean, it's interesting because, you. know, this is how you lift people up and. bring them together. Is friendship is a. wonderful way, but the admiration of. others, too. Why do you care if somebody. admires you? Because you want to share. something that's been good for you with. them. Otherwise, it's empty. And by the.

way, then it'll be taken. Yes. Yes. >> [laughter]. >> Yes. Uh so one of the things Arthur says, to. get to life's meaning there's a lot we. need to unlearn first and and then be. able to lean into the mystery. >> Yeah. Lean into the mystery. >> Right. >> How does that work? >> So, this is actually a little bit about. the human brain. So, I'm going to talk. about the brain here for a second. We. have an an incredible, complicated, complex, wonderful brain. We're. wonderfully made. But, one of the most.

interesting areas of neuroscience that's. come about over the past 10 years is. called the theory of hemispheric. lateralization. I know it sounds fancy, but that's what we do in academia to get. tenure. You take a really easy idea and. you put fancy words. All right, here's. what it means. The two sides of your. brain do different things. The right. side of your brain is all about the why. questions, the mystery, the meaning, the. stuff that you can't quite describe but. that moves you. So, when you hear some. music and and it makes you sad and and. it makes you want to cry and you don't. know why, that's because the right side. of your brain is working. It's the.

mystery side, the meaning side. The left. side of your brain is where you deal. with complicated problems. You solve. stuff, analysis. You know, the engineering solutions and that's. what you're using when you're on your. phone. That's when you're using. technology. That's the hustle and grind. culture of answering every single. question. Is the left side of the brain. The left side of the brain, there's no. mystery and meaning over there. It's. just how-to and what questions all day. long. >> analytical, right? >> That's the problem is when we live in a. culture and we use our devices and we.

live all day long on the wrong side of. our brains, we literally can't assess. the meaning of our lives because we're. not using our brain in the right way. And is it also because this is why I. like the meaning of your life so much is. because we haven't asked ourselves the. right questions. >> Exactly. And you allow us in this book. to ask the right questions. >> And if you do, the right side of your. brain will light up. The right side of. your brain will become active. And these. are the questions that don't have. answers that you can put into chat GPT. or Google. Questions like,

"Why am I alive?" Mhm. "For what would I. give my life?" Ask ChatGPT, "What would. I die for?". >> [laughter]. >> It doesn't even make sense, right? >> That's right. >> And and and in point of fact, you might. not be able to put your. put your your finger on it exactly, and. that's okay because all the things you. care about the most can't be solved, they can only be understood. I'll give. you an example of that, by the way. There's lots of stuff that I solve all. day long. I solve all kinds of. analytical problems all day long. Mhm. That's what I did when I was in graduate. school was learn how to solve problems.

Mhm. But the problems that I can't solve. are the ones I care about the most. My. marriage is a very complex problem. without a solution. I've been married 34. years. I mean, my my I'm so in love with. my wife. I'm going to. she's the last person I'll lay my eyes. on as I take my dying breath. But I can't quite tell you why. And and we've been married for decades. Like, anything I say, it'd be like, "Cuz. she's good to me." It So was my third. grade teacher, Oprah. Mhm. That that's. that's not. that's the reason that all. >> and him have always had a spiritual.

connection and bond. >> And that's a right brain connection. >> goes beyond words because you didn't. even speak the same language verbally at. first, but your heart spoke the same. language. >> It was divine. It was It was an uplink. to God, and that's how a lot of couples. who are really religious, they see their. marriage as as an antenna to God. Actually, and the reason is because one. flesh in real life is not about the. stuff that we think it means. It's about. the two right hemispheres of the brain.

working as one. Mhm. You're a. grandfather now. I am. >> a grandfather and grandmother. How has. that changed the meaning of your life? >> It's so incredible. You know, grandparenting is the one thing that's. not overrated in life. And and it's amazing because it's not as. if, "Oh, yeah, it's cuz you're not. changing diapers, Brooks." No, that's. not it because I am changing diapers. My. grandchildren live with me in my house. Two of them do. We we and it's funny because this is how. the left brain helps the right brain. My.

left brain looked at all the literature. and said, "You're going to be a lot. happier if you have an extended. household and you you don't have to go. visit your grandchildren. You shouldn't. visit your grandchildren. You should be. real real close to them." So, we had a. family meeting based on research and we. said, "We think it's best if we all live. in the same area so we can all help each. other an awful lot as a family cuz you. know, I don't ever have any regrets. Oprah but I there's one regret that I. have which is that I never got to know. my parents that well because I was on. the go go go. I was living in Europe and. I was kind of pursuing my career. I was. a musician in those days.

And and and I thought, you know, they're. interesting. My dad was a mathematician, my mother was an artist. They were very. interesting people and I thought, "Oh, I'll have time." They died. They died young. And it was too late. I didn't get to. know them and and my kids didn't get to. know them very well. They didn't know. their grandparents very much. And I. said, "I'm not going to screw that up a. second time." And so, I'm not. So, we. all moved in a great big moving van to. the same area. All the families. together. My youngest is 22 and she's. still in the military. but but she'll be back and my sons, they.

got married at 22 and 23 and started. having kids at 23 and 24 and we're. helping. We're helping and I'm telling. you it's the life in life. The right. hemisphere of my brain is fully alive. for the first time. I I. It's funny. It's hard to describe how. beautiful it actually is. It's the my. heart and my brain are finally united. and it's all the things that the science. says but you don't need the science to. know that happiness is love. You don't need the science to know that.

Leah, a former student of Arthur's at. the Harvard Business School is joining. us from Brooklyn. Leah, hi hi. What was your biggest takeaway? I want. to know what your biggest takeaway was. from. uh Arthur's leadership and happiness. class. Yeah, yeah. Um I'd just like to say hi. Oprah. It's great to have you here. >> [laughter]. >> I'm going to say that. And hi Professor. Brooks. >> Hi Olivia, how are you? Nice to see you. >> So good to be. Yeah, so good to see you again. I've. just been really enjoying listening to.

this conversation. It's been very. insightful. But I'm a two-time Olympic. medalist, Harvard MBA grad of course, where I took. leadership and happiness. And I've been able to achieve a lot of. these accomplishments just through a. combination of being goal-oriented, relentless, and historically driven by a. need to prove myself. Um, I decided to. get my MBA after I retired from swimming. because. I was like, "Great, I'm an Olympian, but.

now what?" So let me go to business. school to have them tell me what I. should do. and to also prove to the corporate world. that I'm more than an athlete. But I realized that as graduation neared. and with the catalyst of Professor. Brooks' class, it ultimately comes back. to you to decide for yourself what. you're going to do. Um, so many of us. like at HBS or go to HBS to check a box. and. to have Harvard.

as our branding like on our resume. because it seems like it's something we. should do. So my biggest takeaway from. Arthur's class is being intentional and. taking my career and my life into my own. hands. rooted in like frameworks that make it. more manageable to reflect and make. these decisions for yourself. and to not just accept life as something. happening to you, but something that you. have full agency in shaping. Yeah, love.

that. What's your question? Yeah, so my question is I love how you. both are so sure in your calling. I guess how do you translate everything. that you've accomplished so far. and even suffered through I know Arthur. that's. one of the topics that you've covered as. well, like meaning through suffering. Don't waste your suffering. Yeah. >> Right. How have you channeled all that. into your calling, into your next step? What did that.

thought process look like? >> So, you're right, Leah. And and and and. by the way, for for our our viewers, Leah's an Olympic athlete who then went. to the Harvard Business School. And. we've discussed this a lot. She she. talked in class about how frustrating it. is and how empty it is to get to the. finish line. And and most people would say, "If I. could only be like Leah and be an. Olympic silver medalist, oh, yeah, then. I'd be happy." Oh, no, no. "If I got an. MBA from Harvard, then I'd be happy.". Well, she did that and she's a living.

testimony to the fact that arriving. isn't the deal. >> Yeah, because then cuz arriving you. didn't got to say, "Then what?" Exactly. right. Now what? Exactly right. Exactly. right. And she suffered because and she. exposed herself to suffering cuz. satisfaction is the joy you get from. accomplishment after suffering. But the suffering is something that we. misunderstand today, that people. misunderstand. The greatest lie we tell. young adults today is that suffering. needs to be eliminated, that suffering. means something's wrong. I tell my. students, "Look, you're studying at. Harvard. If you're if you're not sad and.

anxious, then you need therapy. You're. doing something hard on purpose." And. that's the point. Here's how to think. about suffering so it will truly bring. meaning. Suffering is pain times. resistance to pain. That's the formula. That's the arithmetic. Suffering equals. pain times the resistance to it. Now, pain is an automatic physiological. thing. It's your brain saying, "This is. bad." And and that means it's sensory, you can feel it, or it's or it's. affective, meaning that you have a you. don't like it, but that's automatic.

Suffering is your struggle that ensues. Your struggle is not automatic. And and. so, we shouldn't go go life trying to. lower the pain level cuz pain is. inevitable. We should lower our. resistance to the pain by saying, "What. am I going to learn from this?" And I. have a whole set of exercises that I. give my students on how to lower your. resistance to the pain so that your. suffering will be lowered. And here's. how you know you're doing a good job. Here's how you know you're doing a good. job in life.

is when your pain is high, but your. suffering is low. You remember my. mother-in-law? Remember we talked about. my mother-in-law? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> beginning of our book together. >> Yeah. She was bedridden in her last 3. years of life. It was hard, and she was. in a lot of pain, and it was a tough. life. But in the most painful part of her. life, her suffering was lower because. she had lowered her resistance to it. And she found what the meaning of that. actually was in giving back to other. people. And that's the question that we. have to ask. When you're in pain, don't. say, "I got to get rid of the pain right.

now." No, no, no, no, no. It's what am I. learning from this pain? In so doing, as. the resistance falls, you'll find that. your suffering falls, and that's a life. full of meaning. Thank you. Thank you so much, Lea. Thank you, Lea. Thank you. Thank you. So you devote so many pages to what you. call moral beauty. I love that phrase, and I learned from talking. with Dr. Keltner on this podcast not too. long ago that moral beauty is actually.

the number one thing that inspires awe. >> Yeah. >> Can you talk about that? >> Yeah, yeah. So beauty is a funny thing. And when I say, "Okay, think of. something beautiful," people often think. of, you know, somebody they're attracted. to physically. That turns out not to be. the kind of beauty that gives you a. sense of meaning in life. That leads you. to make all kinds of odd decisions, as a. matter of fact. Three kinds of actual. beauty, however, will illuminate the. right side of your brain and show you. meaning. It's Number one is natural. beauty, beauty in nature. Number two is. artistic beauty, like a beautiful song. or a painting or a poem. And number.

three is moral beauty, where you witness. acts of selflessness by other people. And that uniquely stimulates the brain. to to to to transcend itself in a funny. way. To go from here's what's actually. happening to wow, that's actually the. meaning of life. That's the meaning of. life. Now, there's a great psychologist. who does that. You know, you and I have. a a mutual friend, my my beloved friend. Rainn Wilson, the actor. >> yes, yes. His uncle is a psychologist. named Brett Diener who actually is the. world's leading expert in moral beauty, in moral elevation. He's done all of.

this interesting research on it. He says. you have a warmth, a feeling of warmth. in your chest. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> It gives you a sense of imagination that. you wouldn't have had otherwise. And. that's absolutely the case. So, one of. the things that I recommend, I prescribe. to people who are really in a funk, they. can't find the meaning of their life, is. they start looking for moral beauty. Now, that starts with the way that you. curate your relationships. Start. avoiding the gossips around you. Start. avoiding the people that are actually. trashing other people. Start hanging out. with the people that are that admire.

others, that have positive things to. say. That's really important. >> Yeah, cuz being around negative people. is only going to make you feel worse. >> All right. And it makes you It gives you. this like weird sense of relief at first. and then and then it's empty. It's. emptiness is what comes later. >> away. The second thing is to actually. spend your time doing things where. you're going to witness moral beauty. That means do a service trip instead of. a beach trip. That's a really beautiful. thing to do. And people like, what, I'm. going to spend my vacation putting roofs. on houses for poor people? Yep.

Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. And. it will be the best vacation you ever. had. And the third thing is is gratitude, is. practicing gratitude. When you practice. gratitude. >> is in every practice or principle you're. ever going to have. >> because it goes against your natural. tendencies. We have a natural tendency. to be ungrateful wretches all the time. Our brains are wired that way as a. matter of fact. >> Or just come to accept things as this is. the way they are instead of having deep. appreciation for it. >> And one way to do that is to start the. day, you know, you remember Norman. Vincent Peale? Of course.

>> You know, and he would start each day. as, you know, with a psalm. This is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it. Yeah, it's great. Give thanks for all the. beautiful things going to happen this. day. Be grateful for that. But, you know. what else? Say, "And I'm also grateful. for the things that are going to. challenge me this day. These things are. going to be hard for me this day because. I'm going to learn and grow from those. things. So, bring it on." I love that. [laughter]. Bring it on. Ryan was a Fulbright. scholar who shadowed Arthur for an. entire school year. He's now a PhD. candidate in his home country of New. Zealand. I was just there. What a.

beautiful country. Welcome, Ryan. I was. just It's just amazing there. I love it. Every corner you turn is like, "Oh my. god, this is so beautiful." What did you. take away from your year with Arthur? Yeah, it's a beautiful country down here. at the at the bottom of the of the. Pacific. Arthur, it's fantastic to see. you again. And Oprah, nice to meet you. Thank you. >> Um, I was really fortunate to spend a. year with Arthur as a part of my. Fulbright scholarship. And there was so. much that I took away from learning from. him. But, the reason that I wanted to. study with Arthur was that I think he's.

one of the. the best in the world at articulating. the science of happiness and meaning and. living a happy and fulfilling life in. ways that are accessible to everyday. people. And that's the sort of scholar. that I can that I want to be able to be. so I can make a positive impact and. share the sorts of things that help me. live the happy and fulfilling life with. other people around me as well. And I'm. sure you agree, Oprah, but I think. Arthur is truly one of the best in the. world at being able to do that and. making sure that the knowledge that we. have in scientific articles and research.

isn't just something that gets hidden. away, but is shared with the rest of the. world around us as well. One of the. things that I learned from Arthur, which. completely changed how I approach the. research and I think about these sorts. of things in terms of discerning what I. should research and what I should do. with my life as well as as framework. that he shared for me for finding the. paths that are particularly promising. And one of the things that seen was that. if you can find a pathway where the.

contemporary social science, contemporary neuroscience, and ancient. spiritual and religious wisdom all point. in the same direction, that's the. direction to focus on, and that's the. direction to run in terms of living a. happy and fulfilling life and finding. your pathway in the world, too. Wow. And. so, have you been able to do that? I'm. trying my best. I've just been appointed. at Victoria University here in. Wellington as a lecturer, and after. teachers his class happiness and. leadership very famously at Harvard.

Business School, and I'm going to be. teaching my own iteration on that class. on happiness. >> Wow, doesn't that make you feel good? Ryan Meachem is a great He's a unique. talent. He does work on on. self-actualization and self-realization. that's really, really new. I can't wait. to see the new stuff, Ryan. By the way, you can't tell, but he's 6'5". Wow. >> Yeah, he's a big [laughter] guy. He's a big New Zealander. Did you have a. question? I do have a question. Arthur very famously asked students to. reflect on the two big questions for.

discerning the meaning of your life. And. those two questions are. why am I alive, and what would I be willing to die for, or at the very least dedicate my life. to? And I think that's an incredible. framework for orientating us towards. what we think is the meaning of our. life. But my question is, when life gets noisy. and busy and and on our day-to-day. basis, when we're trying to live our. lives, how do we live these questions?

How do we stay orientated to these. questions on a day-to-day basis? Yeah, that's a great question, Ryan. I. appreciate that because it's easy to. have these big highfalutin thoughts, and. then get stuck in the weeds of. moment-to-moment, absolutely. And this. is one of the reasons that we need to. have these touchstone questions in our. lives front and center. That's one of. the reasons that when people have these. big ideas, I recommend that they they. write them down on a post-it note and. put it on their computer screen and look. at them first thing and during the day. I recommend that couples actually hold. each other accountable to these big.

questions. You know, when I'm two of our. off base, I'm going to hear about it. from my wife and I know your wife, you. should hear about it from your wife, too. And and to regularly wire your. batteries together and say, are we. living up to the reason that we believe. that we've been put on this earth? Are. we living as though our lives could be. taken from us and if they are, it it is. for that actually matters. The more that you do that with a person. that you love the most, the more. meaningful it's going to be and then you. can go with confidence from moment to. moment, but that shouldn't be something.

you ask just once a year once in a. class. Make sure that the big big big. things are front and center and you're. reminding yourself and reminding each. other of these things regularly. I love that. I love that. Me and my wife. have this little practice of checking in. with each other at the end of each week. to say, what have we got coming up this. week and what do you need to be. supported with? How do we want to love. each other this coming week? And those. are some easy questions that I can add. to this is, are we living up to the. meaning of our life in terms of our.

relationship to one another and what we. know is deeply important to the both of. us. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the. great things about having a you know, having somebody that you're really close. to, somebody who understands you, somebody who is your person, is that you. can actually ask these questions. together, actually as a couple. In other. words, why why are we on this earth as a. couple? What would we give our lives for? What. would we dedicate our lives to as as as. a couple, not just as as two individuals. randomly configured? And so you can. answer it for yourself, she can answer.

it for herself and you can answer it for. yourselves and soon enough with your I. hope many many children, you can answer. this as a family as well. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you so much, Ryan. Thank you. >> Thanks, Artha. Thanks for having us. >> you. I have to say that the end of the. book really was so moving to me because. so many people myself included way back. in the day. were searching searching searching and. some sometimes the thing that you are. looking for most actually finds you. instead and you write life's meaning.

found me when I was finally in the right. place in my life to be found. What. happened? So. I left a you know, as I mentioned the. very beginning of our conversation, I. was running a company and I did that for. 11 years and I was burnt out and tired. and. I didn't know what to do. So I did what. you know, many people have done for. thousands of years when they don't know. what to do. I went for a long walk. That's called a pilgrimage and people of. many religions have been undertaking. pilgrimages forever and there's some.

weird almost magical property about. pilgrimages. Walk walk walk walk for day. after day after day. When they have an. intention they tend to find what they're. looking for. I said, "Okay. Okay, I'll. try it." So I walked the Camino de. Santiago which is this walk hundreds of. miles across northern Spain. People have. been pilgrims have been doing that for. 1,100 years and it finishes up in a. medieval city called Santiago de. Compostela and the the legend is. >> the 100 miles or 500? >> I did I did the 100 the last 160 km is. what I did. Good lord. So it was it I.

wanted to do all 800 km but my wife. said, "No." No. She said You don't have. that much time. >> no we did not have that much time. She. said, "I just don't have that much will. to do that. I have other things I need. to do, you know, but and she knew it was. for me." And so that and that really was. enough. And so I started walking and. believing, you know, praying and. believing that I was going to find what. I was looking for but what I didn't know. is it didn't work that way. I got more. and more tired and I got more and more. sore and I had blisters and. and and I was I was beaten down and. that's what I needed to be. I needed to.

be properly beaten down because that's. when the aperture was open. I had this. kind of tenderness. It was like a. lobster that had molted and it was and. and and and when that happened as I was. entering into Santiago de Compostela, my. meaning found me. I felt that I had discovered it. I. didn't find it. It It It hunted me down. because I I realized what had been there. all along, which was my. my goal in life, my meaning in life was. to lift people up and bring them. together in bonds of happiness and love. using science and ideas. And after that,

after my meaning found me, I did what. we're doing right now. Yeah. And you continue to do it. Yeah. With. this wonderful book. It's always great. learning from you, Professor. And the. book is My The book is The Meaning of. Your Life. I want to thank my guests for. joining us today and for your thoughtful. questions, Max and Madison and Lee and. Ryan. The book. The Meaning of Your Life: Finding. Purpose in the Age of Emptiness. And I. hope that this conversation has inspired.

you to continue to live your best life. or seek it seek it with the most. meaning-filled. life. Thank you so much. Go well. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.