Gray Divorce (after 50) & Adult Children: The Fallout for the Family, with Oprah and Leading Experts

I. >> [music]. >> came downstairs and my husband of 26. years announced that he wanted to get. divorced. Uh, so it [music] was just. like the rug being pulled out from. underneath me. >> [music]. >> Hello and a warm welcome TO YOU ALL. WARM WELCOME. WARM WELCOME. >> [applause]. >> WE'RE out of the T-house today and we're.

in New York City. >> YEAH. >> [cheering]. [applause]. >> UH, AND MY hope and intention for this. podcast is that there are conversations. that can be additive to your life and I. want to focus on. uh, what I see happening in the world. and then we can try to make some sense. of it together. So recently, I started. hearing y'all about more and more people. who have been married for decades.

starting to get divorced. Has anybody. else heard this? Yes. Okay. And I. thought to myself, "Well, that never. used to happen. You know, once people. made it past a certain number like 20. years, you're just in it for life.". >> there. >> You're just going to take yourself all. the way to the flatline, you know? So then I find out that even though. divorce is at a 50-year low here in the. United States, the rate of what's being. called gray divorce, that's divorce over.

50, is actually soaring. >> Wow. >> Through the roof. And listen to this, the divorce rate for people over age 50. has doubled and for people over 65, divorce rate has tripled. >> Wow. >> I thought that would shock you. Isn't. that crazy? That never never used to. happen. So what is going on? Dr. Susan. Brown is the distinguished professor of. sociology and co-director of the. National Center for Family and Marriage.

Research at Bowling Green State. University in Ohio. And she has been. researching divorce now for more than 15. years and help coin this phrase that. we're going to be talking about today. called gray divorce through her multiple. studies on this phenomenon. So, Dr. Brown, tell us what you found. What is. going on? >> Well, I think it's fair to say that. back in 1990, older people really didn't. get divorced. Only 8% of people. divorcing that year were over the age of. 50. But today, 40% of people who are.

divorcing in the United States are 50 or. older and 10% are 65 or above. And you. know what got me interested in this. topic was when Al and Tipper Gore. announced back in 2010 that they were. calling it quits after more than 40. years of marriage. And my colleague and. I were chatting about that and trying to. figure out, you know, is this some kind. of celebrity phenomenon or is this. actually happening to everyday. Americans? And so, we decided we were going to.

crunch the numbers and we were really. floored to find out that. the rate of divorce for people over age. 50 had doubled since 1990. >> Wow. And the reason is? >> Well, I think there are a number of. reasons. I mean, one thing that we can. point to is that the norm of marriage as. a lifelong institution is eroding. because now what we're doing is turning. to our marriages for self-fulfillment. and when we're unsatisfied, most. Americans, including older adults, see.

divorce as an acceptable solution. We can also point to the rising rate of. female labor force participation. The. vast majority of wives are working now. and so, they can afford to get divorced. They're no longer economically dependent. on their husbands. And we can also point. to the gains that we've made in health. and longevity. Those have changed the. calculus. If you survive to age 65 these. days, you can expect to live another 20. years, which is a long time to spend.

with someone you're not that into. anymore. >> And that's why people are coming to you. >> Yes. >> Susan Guthrie was a top family law. attorney and mediator for more than 30. years. And 6 years ago, Susan started. the popular podcast Divorce and Beyond. And I just I really love that title. because there is a beyond and it's. forward-thinking. So, Susan, you have. worked with just hundreds of people, right? Who have gone through this gray.

divorce. And what do you see happening? >> You know, it's such a good. question because I have to say 30 years. ago. like my colleague said, Dr. Brown, we. didn't see gray divorce. We saw people, you know, in the early stages of divorce. splitting up. But then, I would say. probably 20, 15 years ago, I still. remember my first 40-plus year divorce. And it was so unusual that it still. stays in my mind 30.

years later. You know, it was it was a. tale that may sound more familiar these. days. It was a couple who had met in. their late teens. He was a. public servant and he worked a day. shift. She worked night shift. He. retired after 42 years. >> And yes, I see it, right? >> He retired. He was home all day when she was home. all day. And they were in attorneys' offices.

within 3 months. >> Wow. >> Within 3 months. >> Wow, y'all. So, it worked as long as he. was out? >> They never saw I mean, they did have. four children, so they saw each other at. some point. But. when they had to spend those days. together, they truly found and this is. what I think I've seen a lot with the. gray divorces is two people who 40 years. in had nothing in common with each other. anymore.

>> Uh-huh. And now women who are filing more so. than men, right? Women feel like I have. another 10, 15, 20 years. Why should I. stay in a relationship when there's. nothing? >> When it's not serving me. >> When it's not serving me. >> Yeah. >> Well, you all know Lori Gottlieb. She's. a psychotherapist and New York Times. best-selling author. of I love this, Maybe You Should Talk to. Someone.

>> [laughter]. >> That's today with a book, Maybe You. Should Talk to Someone. She also writes. the Ask the Therapist advice column for. the New York Times. So, hi again, Lori. >> Hello. >> Great to see you again. Help us. understand what it is women are actually. navigating emotionally when they go. through this gray divorce. >> Yeah. So, it's interesting, you know, we've been talking about the idea that. you have so much time left and you. really want to think about how do I want. to spend that time? But at the same.

time, when you go through a divorce. later in life, there's you lose that. predictability. You had this idea, this. imagined future of I'm going to be with. this person and we're going to do these. things and we're going to retire in this. way and our financial picture is going. to look like this and our kids are going. to come back to this house and come. visit and all of a sudden, there's this. great unknown right in front of you. So, it can be really disorienting to do this. at this time of life when you were so. certain that your future was going to.

look a certain way. >> were locked in. >> Yeah. >> And that's why women take more of a. financial hit. Do they not, Dr. Brown? >> Yes, they do. They experience a larger. drop in their standard of living than. men do. Although for men, they're also. taking a hit. And I would say for both. men and women alike, um their levels of. wealth, all of their savings they've. amassed over decades, that's dropping by half because of. course divorce entails the division of. assets. And at this stage of the life.

course, it's slow going to recover from. divorce from a financial perspective. >> It is. You're finding the same thing, Susan. >> Absolutely. You know, for someone who's. divorcing at 50, >> Yeah. >> they have maybe 10, 15 years to start to. recoup the financial I'll call it. losses, right? You know, the division of. those assets. Um but for someone who's divorcing at. say 65, they're there. They're in it. They're in that phase where the. retirement funds, the planning they did.

financially to get them through their. retirement years, was whatever they had. amassed for two people. And now they. have to split that up and carry it. forward for two people. And their runway. to recoup is almost gone. >> So I want to bring in a different Lori. There there's two Susans and two Loris, okay? In our audience. Okay, Lori who is. experiencing this in real time. So what. happened? >> Um so. I've been with my husband 34 years, um.

married 28. Year and a half ago. basically said he don't want to be. married anymore. Um so this month was a year we've been. separated, not legally divorced. So you. know, he just went through something and. wanted. wanted out. >> He went through something. >> His father died 3 years ago and when his. father died, his was very sudden. Um. and he said, you know, I could be dead in 20 years, too. So I. need to live my life the way I want to. live it.

>> Okay. All right. And that was a surprise. to you. >> Yeah, because you know, when his father. died, I he started to like he was going. through the grieving process, which I. understood and I um I let him go through. it and I thought, you know, he he's. going through it and he's going to come. out of it. You know, I lost my father, I. understand that. Um. >> So, do you have a question for any of. the Susans or Lori? >> for Lori, um so, when I this happened to. me, I only um really talked about it. with my really close friends and family.

and I didn't really want to share it. with a lot of people. But when people started to find out um. and they would approach me, I was very. um. like embarrassed by it and like shameful. and I felt like they were like jabbing. me. So, um I don't know if that's like a. normal feeling because I still feel like. that. It's a year later and I still feel. like my what if a friend says to me, "Oh, somebody approached me about you. and you know, your husband." and I'm. like my first thing is like why are they. asking? Like I'm like embarrassed about.

it and I don't know why because I I was. an amazing wife and I was you know, I. didn't I didn't do anything wrong. So, why am I embarrassed? >> Right. You know, it's so interesting cuz. when you told this story to us right. now, you told this story of strength. I. was in this marriage. I was an amazing. wife. I understood his grieving process. He was going through something. But. somehow now you have this story that. when people ask you about it that you. feel like they're saying something was. wrong with you or you did something. wrong. But nobody's saying that. So,

you're you're creating the story that. doesn't exist. I think when people come. up to you, they're saying it cuz they. care about you. They're saying, "Hey, I. heard." and underneath that is maybe how. can I support you or you're going. through this with such grace and. resilience. They may not be saying those. other words. >> They may not be and they may, Lori. >> [laughter]. >> No, honest to goodness. I'm I'm I'm I'm. thinking when you said that. that person is having some kind of. judgment. Isn't that what you're. feeling? >> 100%. I was at a funeral not too long. ago and a girl that I haven't seen in. years came up to me and she asked me.

about me and my daughter but not my. husband so I knew she knew and she went. she this was exactly how she said it she. went and how are you? And it was like pity on her face and I. was like why are you pitying me because. I'm now a single woman in my 50s what's. wrong with that? >> Right and so I think that that's a. projection of how she feels but it's not. your lived experience. Your lived. experience is this is really painful. I'm going through my own grieving. process but you are still saying I was. an amazing wife. I did all these things. right. So this is all about her when.

people come up to you and they have that. judgment or pity that's their own. projection of their own fears. you know is divorce contagious is that. going to happen to me? >> Right right. >> So you have to separate out what this. other person feels about herself and not. let that be projected on to you. >> Where is you understand right? >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. I I hear that. I do hear I do hear. that. That if you're strong in yourself and. you know.

what your reasons are and you know what. has actually happened that when other. people's judgment which they will come. and she was judging you I will say that. >> [laughter]. >> That was not a very caring thing to say. cuz that's happened to me too. I remember when I let go of the Oprah. show by my own choice and afterwards I. was talking to somebody who was like. How are you? Like are you really okay and I could I. could you you can you can feel the. judgment Lori. You can feel it when it's.

there but I think what you just advised. her you know what the real truth is and. so you understand that's her projection. and. >> And the first thing a lot of people say. to me is like are you going to start. dating again and I'm like I don't need. to have. a man in my life like I'm okay being. single at least for now you know like. that's not my first thing. >> [applause]. >> I think there's this. [applause and cheering] this. misconception too about the single woman. that there's some pity for the single. woman, but let me tell you in my.

practice when I see the men who get. divorced, they are shocked because they. don't realize how much invisible work. happened behind the scenes that ran. their lives. And so they. >> Oh, yeah. >> suddenly realize it is really hard being. alone and they don't have as many close. social ties because you know when you. say, "My partner is my best friend.". Well, for men sometimes it truly is. They confide in you, they talk to you. Women have maybe you thought your. partner was your best friend, but you. have one, two, three other best friends.

>> Mhm. >> Right? So, you are actually women tend. to be more prepared to be on their own. than men do. So, it's interesting that. in our culture we tend to pity the. single woman and yet she's much more. prepared. to be on her own. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have a I have a happy, supportive life with my friends and. family, so I don't I don't need to date. anybody, but if I do, it's fine. >> [laughter]. >> Not right now. >> Right now. Right now. >> Where's Gabriella? Go ahead.

>> So, I was married for um 19 years, together for 21 and about 14 months ago. my husband said that he wanted out, he. wanted a divorce and I was completely. shocked and. >> Because you thought the marriage was. fine? >> Um we had some issues, uh but I thought. that we had been working on them. Um. so, we've been separated now for about. 14 months and. there was trust broken in the marriage. and I feel like I have no choice now but.

to file for divorce, so I'm at the very. very very beginning of that stage. Uh we. have two younger uh children that are. our world. Uh they're 8 and 14. and so we're all going through this. horrible time. >> Mhm. >> Does it always have to be horrible? >> You know, that's such a a good question. and the first one to ask and it somewhat. goes back to I think what Lori was.

saying with the how you doing? >> Yes. >> Um, because we do live in that society. that. brings shame to the concept of divorce, the idea of divorce. Um, yet so many. people find on the other side that it. was eventually the right thing or the. right thing for that family. It's really. a process and you just said this and I. think it's very brave if I may say if. you to come and talk about this at a. time when you've just filed. >> vulnerable.

>> Yeah, it's it's a rough I sit with. people in that space all the time. So, bravo to be able to talk about that. You'll help others who hear it, but. you're in a space with your your. husband, your children where you are. going to now restructure your family and. it's going to be something different on. the other side, but it's still your. family. They're your children who are. your world and in a lot of ways if you. can approach it instead of the the. disaster.

um, which you know, it may feel like, but many times you can find that way to. finding a better structure that works. better for your family. So, part of it. is how we we view it and and. again to what Lori said, how the world. views it for us. >> Mhm. I love that you saying that it's. going to be different because I think so. many women. and men in this situation, you mourn. what was. You spend so much time.

mourning what was. You're mourning the. loss. You mourn the way things used to. be. You're thinking about what your. holidays are going to be like. You're. thinking that morning what was. And so, just that advice is so profound is. accept the fact that now things are. going to be different. What do you want. to say, Laurie? >> Yeah, and it you know, I think that when. we're going through it and you're going. through it right now, it it feels like a. deconstruction, but it's actually a reconstruction. And a lot of people say, well, I'm.

starting from zero, and I say, no, you're starting from experience. >> Mhm. >> You know so much more now than you did. before. So, you're not a blank slate. You have all this experience, and now. you can say, what do I want? What's. important to me? What matters to me? What have I learned from this? So, you're actually starting from a place of. strength, even if at the same time, and. I'm a big fan of the both and, of you're. going through the pain, and you're going. through this reconstruction. >> Mhm.

>> [applause]. >> Isn't it also important. Isn't it also important to because over. over the years I've done so many shows. or had conversations about this, and. it's like a death. And there's a grieving that needs to. happen with it that I don't think a lot. of people allow for themselves. We. accept the fact that when somebody has. actually died in in your family, that. you were allowed to grieve and process. that. I don't think people see divorce.

as a grief and something that needs to. be processed. >> Well, all family members experience what. we call separation distress, and it. doesn't matter who initiated the. divorce. It's very much like severing a. parent and child bond, and it takes a. number of years for people to recover. And we're finding that among older. adults, the recovery period is a bit. more protracted than what we see for. younger people. So, it's taking upwards. of 4 to 5 years to bounce back. So, you. know, giving yourself time. >> Cuz you would think it would be the.

opposite. >> Well, I think it's in part because many. of them are breaking up these. decades-long marriages, right? They've. just been much more entrenched and. involved. They're unraveling much more. closely intertwined lives than people. who've have been married for a couple. years and decide to call it quits. These. are people who have been married often. for 20, 30, 40 years and they've got to. disentangle all aspects of their lives. from their finances to their personal. relationship, their children, and it's. something that takes time, but they do. recover. Mary Jane, do you want to share your.

story? Hello. >> Yes, hi. Uh my story is I in 2021. I. you know, came downstairs and my husband. of 26 years announced that he wanted to. get divorced. I was pretty locked in, as you say. Uh. so it was just like the rug being pulled. out from underneath me. Everything that you said, your future. that you think's going to be there with. your family is no longer and it's just. kind of poof, gone in one conversation.

Uh. we raised two daughters, one sitting. next to me, Kayla, and it was just uh. devastating. It was devastating and kind. of felt like I was drowning and didn't. know which way. how to get air. Uh so, I think you lose a lot of power. when this happens in yourself and your. your own agency because it's not your. decision, but a lot of decisions are. going to be dominoing from this decision. that you didn't make. So, the first. thing that I did just. just because was to just set the.

intention. I did have power over the. intention through which I was going to. get divorced. >> You did? >> I did. I did. And that intention was my. >> Mary Jane, how did you come up with. that? >> [laughter]. >> Well, I've done a lot of well-being things in. my life. I've taught a lot. Um so, it. was within my wheelhouse. I learned a. lot from you through the years. >> Thank you. >> So, intention was really important and I. knew that my daughters were going to be. watching and it was an opportunity for. them to watch me suffer and be sad and.

um. really just. navigate this. And so, I wanted to see I. wanted them to see me with hope. I. wanted them to see me with resiliency. and to always be choosing the high road. whenever I got an opportunity. >> So, how long ago was this? How old were. your daughters? >> Uh it was 4 years ago. >> Yeah. >> You know, I didn't want the divorce, but. I sit here right now and I just can't. even I mean, I can't even I could have.

never imagined how happy I would be. I. am so happy. I get to spend time with. >> [applause and cheering]. >> Yes. Yes, go ahead. Yeah, so I get to spend. time with my my daughters. I have work. that I absolutely love. I have people. that surround me that I love. >> But you were where Gabriella is. >> where you all Yes, I think very much so. So, it's it's true. For me, it's not a. new chapter. It's really just an.

entirely new book. It's a whole new book. of my life. >> didn't want it. >> I didn't want it. >> Didn't think it was going to happen. You. were 26 years in, locked in. >> Locked in. >> Locked in. >> So, I'm trying to walk every footstep right. now in this new book. >> Did you grieve Did you grieve as we were. just talking about you grieved. >> And there's so much grieving because. it's not only just the loss of your. husband. It The domino is enormous. Like. you lose. It was tough to get a credit card. And I.

didn't have Like just the ability to go. buy something, I couldn't. Like that was. a loss. I mean, the smallest thing, the name. that I had, you lose. And what does that. mean? Well, then you don't really exist. anymore on the on the internet. Like. it's just. it's just so much bigger and so many. little losses. >> that the grief's pretty big. But you, Kayla, saw your mom go through this, right? >> I did, yes. >> And. >> And I mean, it was devastating at first. I think we were all shocked. And.

unfortunately, that seems to be a common. experience amongst the women of the. front row. Um. but it was beautiful in another odd way. I think the biggest silver lining was. watching my mom. actually walk the talk that you were. talking about. And you were such a role. model and found so much joy and now we. like laugh way more than we ever did. Um we have the best time. >> [applause].

>> Including including coming here today. and being on the Oprah podcast. That's a. huge silver lining. Thanks, Dad. Um. but yeah, I would say now we are closer. than we've ever been and um. there's just so much grace that I've. seen you exhibit. It's. saintly, honestly. That's amazing. >> So, is it because you were at an age. where she could have a conversation. because your kids are how old, did you. say? >> 14 and 8. >> 14 and 8. So, you can't have the same.

conversations with a 14-year-old and an. 8-year-old as she would be having with. you 4 years ago. So, is it because you. were older and you are able to talk. about it and cry about it and all those. things? >> I definitely didn't want to hide my. emotions. So, that was really important that I. would I could say, "Hey, you're seeing. me cry and I'm going to be okay. I have to work through this process and. I'm going to come out I'm I'm going to.

come out of this on the other side so I. think we we were in it um. somewhat together and I didn't hide. anything but I also always tried to. say this is this is what it looks like. to go through a hard thing. You don't. just bury it. You got to work through. it. >> Mhm. Do you find that it's a different. reaction depending on how old the. children are, Susan? >> I really do. I think it's a a very. different. um, experience for younger children.

They are minors. There's uh the entire. system is built to try and protect them. from what the conflict that might be. going on between their parents. There. tends to be, and I'm certainly not. talking about what happened here cuz. this is beautiful what what you were the. gift you were able to give your. daughters. Um, but for many of the older adults. that I've seen going through divorce. with adult children, I've seen the tendency. to treat the children as peers,

to hear what's going on. down in the nitty-gritty as opposed to. how we might shelter children from that, younger children. >> Well, I heard you did a podcast episode. titled divorce triage, right? And and. that was about how to just get your way. through the these first days and months. of divorce. What's your advice for those. days, which I which I've got to be.

terrifying? >> Uh you know, I've I've heard from many. clients and been through it myself, and. you know, some days it's just hard to. get out of bed, but you have to, especially if you have children, right? And that's that's actually a gift. It. gives you something to get out of bed. for, um, and reminding you, I love that you. said, you know, you knew your daughters. were watching. And so they were going to. see how you experienced this. But what I. talked about in that episode is. if you have the gift of time in the.

beginning of your process, and I hope. that everyone does because most people. treat it like that. Oh, wait, we've got. to start the divorce immediately. You. didn't. It sounds like you haven't. You. know, that's a gift in itself because it. gives you that time to get the emotional. content a little bit under control, so. that it's not that emergency triage. situation. >> Yeah. And then start looking at what. your situation might need as it comes to. support. Divorce is, I will say, you. know, having been in the industry for so.

many years, decades, it has changed from. a very litigious adversarial process to. something now that can be very. collaborative, very supportive, and a. process that helps the family n- work. their way through that restructuring. So, that's the episode was about how to. pull those people together. >> So, it doesn't have to be contentious. and horrible. >> Exactly. >> Okay. I want to hear from Joanne. Joanne? >> Hello, everyone. >> Hi. >> So, I am 54 years old.

Uh I was married for 30 years, and um. got divorced in February. And mine was not. >> This This past February. Mine was not. all of a sudden. Um I would say probably. year 10, I started to say, "Mhm, not this doesn't really feel as. loving as I thought it was going to. feel.". Um but I stayed in the relationship cuz. I have two children, and both of us were. from single-parent households, and we. wanted to make sure that our children. were raised in um a two-parent.

household. And so, stayed in the. marriage, and then I got to age 50, and. I said, "Hey, kids are grown. Um. you know, I think it's time for me to, you know, move on. I have more years, you know, behind me than I do ahead of. me. And so, for me, it was that decision. that I wanted to be happy. My My. grandmother lived to 102, my mother. lived to 96, so I have longevity in my.

family. I I want to be happy, and so I. had a job that brought me back to the. northeast, where I'm from, and that was. like the beginning of our 1-year. separation, and he didn't come after me, and I didn't want to go back, and so I. started the divorce process, and um. reconnected in the meantime with my old. boyfriend who I hadn't seen. >> [applause]. >> I hadn't hadn't seen him in 33 years and.

we've been together now and we're very. very happy. So, there's life on the. other side. >> [applause]. >> Well, thank you for sharing that. Are. you seeing more people like. >> like that? >> You, Laura? >> Yes, definitely. Um and I think it's. hard when you're in the beginning of it. to imagine, you know, you never thought. like I'm going to be with when I'm when. I'm 50, when I'm 60, I'm going to be. with a new person and live in a new city.

and like do I have a new job and, you. know, have this new community. You can't. imagine it and yet what people say is. and I'm so happy and I'm so much more. fulfilled in this second part of my life. than I ever imagined even though this. wasn't the story that I had written. >> Yeah. I know Gabriella is still not. there yet, so but you're hearing it. You're hearing it. So, Addison, Addison. is an editor at Women's Health and she. wrote a piece earlier this year called.

My parents got divorced when I was an. adult. Why do I feel so weird now that. they've moved on? Addison, what was it. like for you? >> Hi, yes. I still feel very weird about. it. But yeah, basically my parents sat my. siblings and myself down. I'm the. youngest. when I was in my late teen years. and they started saying that they were. going to be separated. They were waiting. to be officially divorced until I moved. out of the house. So, it was probably a. few years later that they officially. divorced, but initially I was really.

upset and I was shocked, but looking. back at it I know it was the best. decision for everyone because they. really didn't seem that in love or. affectionate growing up. I know. something my mom has always said is that. she feels bad that she couldn't give us. an example of a really in love couple. Um so of course they both moved on but. something I really held on to was the. fact that they both said they were never. going to get remarried. And yeah, you guys know what happened.

And so. >> [laughter]. >> And so um they both moved on with one. other person after the divorce. Fast. forward, they both my mom ended up. marrying the man that she moved on with. and my dad is now engaged to marry the. woman that he moved on with later this. month. And so while I am really happy. for them, it has been hard grappling. with this. conflicting identity of being an adult. but also being a child of divorce. because I feel like. my grief is somehow invalid. Like I.

can't be sad because I'm an adult. I'm. not a kid anymore. But um. >> And this is your parents and this is. their life and they should be allowed to. have their life and all those things. >> Exactly cuz I do want them to be happy. but yeah, I I don't know. The more. therapy I've gone to and conversations. that I've had with them, I've realized. that. my feelings do matter just because I'm. an adult. I'm allowed to be sad even. though I am an adult child of divorce. So yeah. >> Kayla, did you experience any of that?

Take the mic. >> Yeah. >> Most definitely. It feels so good to. hear somebody else say that. Um. yeah, it's just so disorienting. I don't. know what your experience was like. exactly but I felt that our family was. like the centerpiece of so much of my. life, all of our lives. And it was the. place that you go from and come back to. and like the springing board. for me and my sister. I think we were. like 19 and 22 when the divorce. happened. And to have that just.

all of a sudden it's like. we were talking earlier this morning at. breakfast. I was like I felt like Sandra. Bullock from Gravity. And I'm the And. I'm the adult child. Like, I I don't. know if I. get to have big feelings about this, but. I did. And I was just like floating out. there like. >> Yeah, I think I think uh. Dr. Brown, we need to talk about that. because I think that people think that. because you're older, they think. everybody's worried about, as you were. saying Susan earlier, the younger. children. But when you're older, they.

think you should just be okay with it. because that's their lives and you're an. adult and you understand. And there's. actually a name for this. What's it. called? >> It's called family boundary ambiguity. And it's important to note that. doesn't matter what age you are as a. child of divorce, it has consequences. >> that it has a name. >> Yes. And And it's It's this notion of. divorce is disruptive to the family. system. And it causes us to question. who's in and who's out of the family. now. Those boundaries become a little. bit fuzzy. And we've got to redefine our.

roles and relationships. And then when. our parents re-partner, that's yet. another transition that we have to. respond to. And once again, renegotiate. How are we going to do family now? Yeah. Who's a family member? Who's not? >> And all of that needs to be. acknowledged, does it not? Because as. you were saying, it's your identity, it's your For a lot of people, it's. their finances, it's It's a It's a lot. Right? >> Right. And then especially like in in. this case when new partners come in, and.

you didn't choose those partners. And. you may not really want to spend a lot. of time with those partners, or you. might not bond with those partners. And. also, there's a sense when your parents. move on with other partners, there's. that, you know, when there's a divorce, there's this grieving process. But when. they move on with other partners, there's a finality to it almost that, wow, our family really is different. You. can have all the fantasies in the world. about who your family is, and then. they're married to other people now. And.

you as an adult are expected to, you. know, it's they have their lives and you. have your life, but I think in a lot of. ways because you imagine the future, too, as being we're going to we're this. one family. This is the home I'm going. to go home to. I'm going to have one. house. The holidays are going to be with. both parents. Um it feels very different. and people think because you're an. adult, we wait until they're adults so. that they won't have problems with the. divorce, but there are so many issues. that come up that nobody pays attention.

when kids are little. People are really. worried about the kids. They pay a lot. of attention to, you know, how are the. kids doing? How are they adjusting? How. are they feeling about it? The kids get. to talk about it and people just don't. ask adult children how they're feeling. about it. >> And and there's a real role reversal. here. I mean, when you're the young. adult, you think you're the one who's. going to be forming a family, finding a. partner, maybe getting married. And. instead, you're watching your parents. date, which is going to be a little. painful for a lot of people, right? The.

roles are reversed and they're trying to. understand from you, well, how does this. online dating thing work? I haven't been. out there in 30 some years. >> Yeah. >> So, I I think that can be challenging. >> I have a lot of therapy patients who. say, "My mom wants me or my dad wants me. to help them with their online dating. profile." And they're like, "Ick.". >> [laughter]. >> I don't want to do that. >> Ick. >> I think that's scary though for for. couples. Is it not? This whole online dating, yes. >> I mean, that is it's funny because you. say that and both your parents said,

"I'm never getting married again." Okay, I will tell you, it's a rare client who. has ever walked into my office saying, "Can't wait to do that again." You know, so people going through divorce often. say they won't do it again. But, soon. after that, the next question is, "When. can I start dating?". And I think there's an aspect of going. through the discomfort of divorce that. it's such an uncomfortable experience. that there are people who think I could. settle some of this discomfort with.

finding a new relationship. >> Uh-huh. >> I could settle I'll still have to deal. with, you know, all of that, but the the. future will suddenly look like something. that's recognizable and all that. So, jumping back into dating tends to be one. of the first questions and one of the. things that people, whether it's an. earlier in life divorce, but definitely. a later in life divorce, like what will. dating look like for me and how do I get. back out and do it? Not many people have. the the attitude that you do that I. don't need this right now. I like my.

life how it is, which that's wonderful. >> That's wonderful. And also not many. people have the attitude. Did you. immediately think that oh my I'm going. to turn this into a wonderful experience. and I'm going to. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. I'm just wondering did No. >> No. >> At first At first you cried. >> First I cried I cried for a year. >> Oh, okay. >> At least, yeah. I mean, it took a while to get get it. back together and be and see like, oh, there's possibility here. And I was. really someone that liked to live in.

possibility. So, um I I woke up I I literally woke up. every morning for the first 3 months and. wrote 100 gratitudes every morning just. because I had to get my brain going in. like a more positive direction. >> Lovely. >> Lovely. >> And so I did a lot of those. >> spiritual work paid off, girl. >> Yeah, it did. It was all meant I mean, you know, I just kind of trust in how. how life unfolds. >> Yeah. >> So, um I I put those practices to the. test and and they work. So.

>> Where's Tremaine? Is Tremaine Is that. you? Okay. >> Yeah, so, uh my mother and my stepfather. have been together for over 20 years. >> Yeah. >> Um. Uh so, our will be the majority of my. life. >> Yeah. >> He's been the father figure at my home. Um and just this past year was we were. talking about grief as well. Um we had. the unexpected loss of my grandmother. Um, so already in navigating that and my. mother growing closely together, um, our. connection grew and our communication. grew and she let me in that um, she was.

working towards leaving my stepfather. Um, which threw me for a loop, especially as an adult child. I've just. turned 34. I had a panic attack for the. first time ever in my life. I never knew. really what that felt like, um, because. I think I was living in this space of. almost a liberation, um, I think as me. as a child. watching a marriage that never always. made the most sense to me and never. seeing in a household the love that I. thought a household deserved and what my.

mother deserved. Um, I I think I lived. in this space of working through. acceptance that that was what that. marriage was going to look like and that. was what the dynamics were going to be. And so when it happened, it kind of. threw me for a loop and that was. happening, but immediately I also knew. as we talk about emotionally, spiritually, financially, what that was. also going to do for my mother. So I. made the decision this year and by this. year, just last month, I moved from. Seattle, Washington, which is where I've.

been living for the last few years, to. move back to the East Coast so that my. mother could live with me, um, to not think. >> [applause]. >> Good son. >> Thank you. >> Good son. You're not going to be there. forever for her. >> No, we've had that conversation as well. >> [laughter]. >> Mom, let me wean you from this. situation. >> a I have a life coach, I have a. therapist. We have talked around our. boundaries. But as someone who was. raised by a single mother before she met. my stepfather, right? I've watched her.

be a very resilient woman for so long. Um, and so this was my opportunity to. come back home and help build that. resilience. So not once have I had a. regret about it. I'm really excited for. what that will do for her. It's my. mother's also still younger, right? She. had me younger, she'll be 56 this month. I will probably won't be helping her on. apps, I'm not there yet. >> [laughter]. >> Um, but she's actively moving in with me. this month and next month, so we are. >> Do you have a question for one of our. experts? >> Lori, I think, especially for me, navigating a lot navigating a lot of. newness for us, right? And for so long.

being the child, right? And now we are. shifting dynamics. The child is now the provider, right? She's living with me, I'm covering a lot. of things financially so that she can. stabilize to where she needs to be. That. also shifts our dynamics a lot right. now. And so I think for me as I'm. navigating this, I want to 100% as I. continue to learn who she is as a woman. and not just my mother, how do I continue to navigate those. boundaries with her and support her in a. way that she continues to still have.

that autonomy and can she can still grow. while she's also being supported and led. a lot by me right now. >> Yeah, that's such a great question. because your roles are reversed right. now. So now you're almost like the. parent taking care of the child. And. it's one thing, you know, as as as a. parent, the your goal is to have your. kids become independent. Like you don't. want your kids living in your basement, right? You don't want your kids living. there forever. And you're saying the. same thing about with your mom, that. this is a temporary situation. I want to. help her build the skills and create the.

support and the community in the adult. sphere, and I mean her age group adult. sphere, so that she can thrive. And you. are also doing something great, which is. taking care of yourself. You're saying. I've got a coach, I've got a therapist, I'm thinking about boundaries, I'm. thinking about the time limitedness of. this. So you're not doing this blindly. And I And I think it's a it's a. beautiful gesture that you're doing, but. I think you want to be very on target.

about how long is this going to go on, what specifically does she need in place. in terms of infrastructure, whether. that's finances, community, um health. support, whatever she needs, and and. wean her as a parent does, because you don't want her to become. dependent on you. So, and you said, you. know, I'm getting to know her as a. woman, but she's still your mom, and. you're still her son, and that hierarchy. still exists, and you don't want to. dissolve that completely.

>> Okay. Susan, Dr. Brown, and Laurie, can. you give us your your final analysis, your thoughts on this? >> You know, I would say this is the time, and this may help your mom, so I'll I'll. say this. Um. This is the time if you're going into a. later life divorce, where there are so. many things going on, but having a. strategy for that beyond, for that. future that we've heard people talk. about, having a plan of how you're going.

to get there, that is probably the. single most important aspect, so that. you can put in place what Laurie was. just talking about, the financial that. you need, the emotional support that she. needs, so that she your mom's able to. move forward in a better way. Strategy. >> And overall, everybody needs their own. strategy, you're also saying. Yeah. >> Yeah, everybody thinks they fall back on. what the law says should happen. And. >> So so yeah, the number one thing you. would tell somebody who if they were. coming into your office today would be.

>> where you're going, and what you want. that future to look like, or at least. start to think about it. It sounds like. that you both have done that, right? And. and started to think about what the. beyond should look like. And then when. you're going through the divorce, when. you're negotiating your settlement, as. you're making very major decisions about. your future, you're making them with. that goal in sight to move you forward. with your strategy toward that goal. I. think that's incredibly important.

>> Yeah, for all families. >> All families. >> Yeah. Not just you, Tremaine. >> No. >> For all families. Everyone here. Dr. Brown, as I was saying earlier, you. helped coin this phrase gray divorce. So, what are your final words here? >> I I would say that, you know, divorce is. a process and adjustment takes time. Even though divorce can be stressful, letting go and moving on can be very. freeing. >> Yes, as we've seen here. >> As we've seen here today.

>> here. And as we're going to see in the future. Yeah, yeah. >> Yes. We're with you. >> [applause]. >> Gabriella, we're with [cheering] you. >> [applause]. >> All right, miss. Maybe you should talk. to somebody. >> [laughter]. >> Well, I think that people going through. divorce should talk to somebody. I think. it's really important. A lot of people. feel like, "Oh, people don't want to. hear this." Or I've talked about it so. much. But people do, you know, find your. pick your audience well. So, you know, whether that's a therapist or whether.

that's a trusted family member, whoever. it is, you do need to talk about it. Also, I think. this idea of having a plan, action. begets action. So, sometimes you feel so. paralyzed in the unknown, the new story, the different path that you just you. don't know what direction to go in. Every small little step. So, it's these. tiny steps. What can you do today? Something small that might bring you. joy. It could be, "I'm going to call a.

friend. I'm going to take a walk. I'm. going to talk to my attorney." Because. that will make me feel more settled. Is. there one small action that you can take. every day? The tiniest thing. >> Today it was, "I'm going to the Oprah. podcast.". >> Today it's, "I'm going to the Oprah. podcast." Right? [applause]. And and not only am I going to the Oprah. podcast, but I am going to meet other. people who have been through it and have. come out the other side and that's very. eye-opening. So, these small actions and.

intentions and asking yourself, "What. can I do now that I couldn't do before?". I think is really helpful, too. You. don't have to have the answers yet, but. what was this passion that I kind of put. on the back burner? What was this thing. that I wanted to do? Am I happy in my. career? Do I like where I live? Um you. know, what are the things that bring me. joy? And thinking about how can I bring. more of that, again, small doses into my. life. You have to combine that with Yes, you're in pain. Nobody wants to ignore.

the pain, but you can do, again, the. both and. >> Is there a Well, I know everybody. experiences the grief and the pain. differently, but that how do you know. when you've wallowed in it too long? I. mean, I thought what you were saying earlier. about being able to get out of bed, you. know, having children is actually a. reason to get out of bed. And for some. people who don't, it's hard to get out. of bed. How do you know when it's now. it's time Girl, get up out of bed. >> The thing about grief and divorce is. that yes, it feels like a death, but the. difference is that the person is still.

around. >> That's right. You can run into them in. the Safeway. >> You might run into them. You might see. them on social media. You still will. hear about them through your adult. children. >> to. >> Um you know, they're still there, like. like being haunted by a ghost. And so, there's a feeling of, you know, I should. be through this this grief. And the. grief, it comes in waves. Um you know, I. think of it as. >> at all the people going, "Yes.". >> [laughter]. >> Been through that. Yes. >> Right. And so, people think, you know, I. was doing so well, and then I was at the.

Safeway, and I ran into this person at. in the produce section, and that really. ruined my day, right? >> No. And the person said, "How are you?". >> Right. >> [laughter]. >> And how are you? >> Exactly. And so, you might have a moment. where, okay, you're back there, but you. don't have to drown in it. It was like. that was a moment, and now I'm going to. move forward in my day. So, it's okay to. kind of go back and forth with the. feelings, just because you still It. might be 2 years later and you have a. bad experience.

>> real grief. It's like grief when you're. grieving the loss of a someone who's. passed. >> to know that that's normal and expected, and just because you feel it in one. moment doesn't mean you're going to feel. it the next. I like to say feelings are. like weather systems. They blow in, they. blow out. It's rainy, it's stormy, it's. sunny. That's what grief is like. >> Wow. Wow. Thank you so much. Thank all. of you for your advice. [applause]. Dr. Brown's research can be found at. bgsu.edu,

and you can find Susan Guthrie's podcast. Divorce and Beyond. Something you should start listening to. wherever you podcast. And Lori. Gottlieb's book, of course, is Maybe You. Should Talk to Someone. It's available. wherever books are sold. Audience, thank. you for sharing your experiences with. us. >> [applause]. >> Thank you. See you next week. Thank you. >> You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube, and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.