Gen Z Tech Addiction Crisis with Oprah and Adam Alter

[Music]. Hi everybody. I'm happy to welcome you. to the Oprah podcast. We're in New York. with a live audience of our listeners. >> So great to be with you all here and we. know the world is changing at the speed. of light. Every day we're grappling with. a new disruption or cultural shift we've.

never faced before. So, one of my. intentions is to have meaningful. conversations about the impact all this. has on our real lives. Lots of people. say, "Oh, I'm addicted to my phone." How. many of you ever said that? I'm addicted. to my phone. Well, anyone who has a. member of Gen Z in their life, that's. roughly between the ages of 13 to 28. knows that tech addiction is becoming a. real crisis. Hear me clearly now. That.

is for millions of families. I'm very. much aware of the toll that this is. taking on parents because two members of. my own team are now struggling with. their sons as we speak. One of them had. to have her son, her 19-year-old son, removed from their home because when she. tried to get him off of her phone, he. started hitting her. So, the obsession. has reached a breaking point for a lot.

of people. So, let's dive right into. this. Adam Alter is a research. psychologist and professor, hi Adam. >> Hi. >> of marketing at New York's University's. Stern School of Business and his New. York Times bestseller is called. Irresistible: The Rise of Addictive. Technology and the Business of Keeping. Us Hooked. Welcome, Professor Alter. So, how bad is it? How bad is it out there? >> It's pretty bad. It's bad in at least. two respects. One is that it affects a.

huge number of people, as you said, millions. Uh the surgeon general report. suggested that about 95% of teens. between 13 and 17 are glued to their. phones, usually using smartphones for. for social media purposes. Um and and. you know the effects also are are grave. for a lot of people. It means their. social interactions are ruined or or. harmed greatly. They struggle to do. work. They have issues within their. families. And and it's not just about 13. to 17 year olds. We're talking about.

young adults and older adults as well. So, it's a it's a pretty serious problem. that affects a lot of people and and the. effects are pretty grave as well. >> Are pretty grave. I mean, what I just. described uh one of my producers was. sharing with me that she had to take her. son out of the home and he's now in some. kind of rehab program. They realized. that he was not attending classes. He. wasn't go, you know, going to school. He. wasn't doing anything except gaming on. his phone.

>> Yeah. and and you hear this story, you. know, large times million or millions. You know, it's a very common story these. days. >> Dr. Caitlyn Regger is an associate. professor and program director of. digital humanities at the University. College of London. Her upcoming book is. called Smartphone Nation. Caitlyn, what. do you want parents in Gen Z to know. about what's going on? >> So, I come from a tech perspective. I. research how the tech works. Okay. I start with the premise that almost. everything else we consume is regulated.

The food we eat, the medication we take, the cars we drive. We have consumer. protections around these things. We. don't have the same consumer protections. around the digital space because we're. not the consumers of tech. We're the. product or rather our time and attention. is the product which is being sold to. advertisers. And what my research looks. at is the way in which through this. attention economy, hate, harm, and.

disinformation is often algorithmically. prioritized. >> Hate, harm, and disinformation. So we're. being. >> because it is more attention grabbing. >> So we're being programmed, we're being. fed that we're being conditioned, and. most people don't even know it. >> That's right. And so what I do is I. develop tools so that we can step away. from being a passive product that just. consumes into being an active. participant. And that's something we all.

can do. We can be much more intentional. with our usage. >> We can be I heard you got interested. when you read that Steve Jobs and a lot. of other people who were responsible for. where we are in the culture with. technology don't let their own kids use. it. >> Yeah. I mean, I found that absolutely. striking. It it violates a very basic. rule in business that you know if you're. the executive from Coca-Cola or. McDonald's or any other company, it's. assumed that you probably consume that. product as well. That's how you. demonstrate that you stand behind.

whatever that product is. And here you. see this one case where there's this. massive departure from that rule that a. lot of the tech titans even for the last. 15 or 20 years have been very purposeful. about keeping those those same products. that they say publicly we should all be. using out of their homes. So they won't. let their kids use the same products. that we all are not only letting our. kids use, but we've been encouraged to. let our kids use. >> Say again, Caitlyn, we're being. programmed for harm. >> So So the reason is is that.

disinformation is often more attention. grabbing than truth. And harm or things. that hook into our most vulnerable. points will often hold us there just a. little bit longer. And that harm will be. different for every person in this. audience, right? We might think about. the fact that we live in information. silos. We might think about the fact. that we were never meant to look at our. faces or our bodies as much as we do. We. might think about the way in which it. has changed sex and relationships. But.

ultimately, the thing that links all of. these problems together is an unethical. attention economy that is seeking to. hold us at any cost. And that's where. this problem sits. And so what I want to. encourage us to do is be aware of this. structure and then start to intercept. it, start to game your algorithm, start. to take control. >> Okay. I want to also bring in Dr. Christina Breezing is an assistant.

professor of psychiatry in the division. of substance use uh disorders at. Columbia University and a research. scientist at New York State Psychiatric. Institute. Dr. breathing. What is. happening in the brains of young people. who are addicted to tech? What's. actually going on in the brain? >> So, technology addiction is a behavioral. addiction. And behavioral addictions. have the same brain changes and clinical. symptoms as addictions to drugs or. alcohol. The hallmark brain change of an.

addiction is a desensitization to the. release of dopamine in response to a. reward. And so essentially what happens. is as a result of that we develop. something called tolerance which means. the same reward doesn't give that same. pleasure doesn't give that same. reinforcing effect. >> It's like the same hit a coke you need. more coke. >> Exactly. Exactly. And so as a. consequence you spend more time seeking. that rewarding pleasurable experience. And as a result of spending more time.

say in the case of a tech addiction on. your phone you're spending less time in. meaningful relationships. You're. spending less time focused on your. schoolwork. You're spending less time. thinking about work. >> So what is the dopamine hit you're. getting from the phone? What what what. is it? What are you getting? >> You So dopamine is released in the brain. in a way that creates pleasure. It feels. good. People like to feel good. >> Yeah. >> And so when you start feeling good, you. spend a lot of time. It out competes. other important things. If it's tech. addiction, it could be gaming.

>> So people could be getting to the next. level of a game. Games are designed to. make things rewarding in a very. particular way. >> They usually use intermittent. reinforcing rewards so that you can't. expect when you're going to get it. >> Get the hit of dopamine which tends to. be more reinforcing. Social media is. designed to get likes and have social. engagement. That tends to be more. rewarding. And then adult content. creates high level arousal and. emotionality and large hits of dopamine. Well, we're going to get to adult. content later, but that allows you to.

even though you get aroused, I think you. then need more. >> intense arousal, right? More intense. things to happen. >> Correct. Because essentially that. desensitization is what leads to the. need for more intense experiences in. order to have that same rewarding, pleasurable sensation in the body and in. the brain. >> Whoa. So, you were talking about gaming. Uh Dr. Dr. Nisha and her son Amir are. here and tell us what's been going on.

Dr. Anisha. >> Hi, thanks for having me. So, my name is. Dr. Nisha Glenn. This is my son Amir. Jenkins and I am going to just share my. experience as being a mother to a gamer. I first bought Air. I would say maybe about five or six. years old. And at that time, I did not. think that it would turn into an. addiction because I'm so used to playing. games growing up. Nintendo, Atari, but. you got to keep in mind, he's a. different Gen Z. I'm different. So, we. went outside, we play when the street.

lights and everything was was up. So, he. started his gaming at about five or six. And then I noticed I bought him his. first game, the PlayStation one, when it. came out. And I noticed like nine and. 10, he was definitely playing the game. And as time continued to go on, when he. got in high school, that's when I knew. it was an addiction. One time he was in. this room playing his game, which is the. game called Fortnite. Oh my god, Fortnite has taken so much of. my money. So he was in his room playing.

Fortnite. I heard him screaming and. cussing and everything like, "Who are. you talking to?" He's like, "I'm or with. some people at the game because I lost. and all this. They going back and. forth." And about 20 minutes later, there are four guys at my door. They had came to my house to fight him. because I guess they lost. I'm not. really sure. But come to find out there. were guys that actually went to his. school. So I then had to contact the. school and let them know what was going. on because at this point I'm noticing. this addiction is getting violent.

Throughout this addiction, I noticed air. would get up in the mornings. He would. not brush his teeth. He would not eat. >> It was strictly. >> air. >> I mean nothing. No. No. No showers. I'm. just keeping it real. I'm just being. honest. In there on the game 24 hours a. day. So, I noticed it affecting his. education. I noticed sometimes when I. would take the game, I would wake up in. the middle of the night. He's in there. at 3:00, 4:00 in the morning playing the. game, screaming, and I'm like, who are.

you talking to? So, it's really bad. right now. And he's 23 years old, and I. still experience a lot of the same. things. He's now taking showers. He's. now eating a little bit. >> brushed his teeth this morning. So good. So, but it it's still bad. I'm like, I. don't want my son to be 30 years old. having an addiction to games. So, I'm. >> Do you think you have an addiction? >> I would say I've gotten a lot better. with it. >> What does that really mean, Amir? Um, I. would say I don't have the urge to.

constantly be on the game, but I feel. the urge to, you know, play the game excessively long. Now, I. don't play it as long as I used to. >> Yeah. So, do you have a do you have a. life? Do you work? Do you go to school? >> I go to school and I work full-time as. well. >> Okay. Okay. So, you're not on it all of. the time. Can you take us to the point of. understanding what that feels like when. you're sort of caught up in the.

obsessiveness obsession of it? >> I would say you almost forget where you. are in a sense. Like when I play the. game, I literally forget I'm in a house. sometimes. It's so virtual, so intimate. and you know, it's free and a judge free zone as well. >> Mhm. You've done extensive research on. games and what do you want to say about. this? >> It's very very hard to resist. You know, you you basically think of it as as.

you're going fishing for people's. attention. And if you're you've got the. hook and the line and you're basically. trying to build as many lures onto the. line as you can. And when you're. designing a product like this, you can't. do it in a way that's foolproof where. you know for sure it's going to succeed, but you can build in as many of these. hooks as you can. things like variable. reward, which is what happens when you. play a slot machine, or the goals that. you get for passing a level, or um the. social connection you get with a lot of. these games because they involve other. people. And so when you build all of. these features into the game, you you.

raise the chance that the game's going. to be hard to resist. And so this is a. very common story. It is very, very. difficult to stop playing once you. begin. >> Well, Dr. Reer, we're not going back in. time. I mean, young adults are going to. have smartphones. So what are parents. supposed to do? >> So Amir, you're in what I would call an. echo chamber, right? So an echo chamber. is when we continuously micro dose on a. certain type of content so that the. behavior or the belief becomes.

normalized for us. And echo chambers are. playing out across this country whether. it's around politics, whether it is. around niche ideas or whether it is. around behaviors online. So what do we do about that? How do we. have these conversations? What I tend to say is if someone in your. life is in an echo chamber, instead of. debating them on the minutia of that. echo chamber in your home or at the. Thanksgiving table with uncle such and.

such who believes this, step away from. the actual detail and look at the. technological processes at play. together. look at the technology that is feeding. this addiction, that is feeding this. belief, and then together decide that. you want to push back against it because. you have the power to do that. And then. we break. >> How are you going to do that when that's. not what he wants to do? How are you. going to do that? because we start to.

talk about the addictive quality of. these technological processes and make. it us against that technology. instead of us being against each other. We are all in this together. Thank you. I I do do have a question. I. remember you stated that they're. considered products and not consumers. >> Yeah. And I was I was telling him about. and wanted to share the story. Whoever. comes up and designed these games are.

genius because at one point we spent all. of our money on PlayStations. They made. it so now convenient to where now he's. playing on a PC. So it's it's easy. access now. We we're not spending as. much money. So that's my thing. They're. making it even more accessible. um for for kids and adults. >> Dr. Breezing, there is a treatment. though for this, right? >> You actually are treating kids who are. going through this.

>> Yeah. So, there are treatments for. behavioral addictions. The first. treatment is looking at psychotherapies, >> things like cognitive behavioral. therapy. And in the case of air, you may. want to think about motivational. interviewing. Basically, it's a type of. therapy that meets people where they're. at, thinks about what your motivation. might be to change this behavior, and. works you towards coming up with a plan. to get you ready, willing, and able to. take action. >> But isn't it like every addiction, the. person has to be willing themselves, not. just your parents or not just your.

person in school or not just that person. has to say, I have a problem. >> and I want to now fix this. Right. >> Absolutely. And so at this point, Amir, you'd have to assess where your. motivation is at to get to a place where. you do exactly what Miss Winfrey just. said, which is that I'm ready to make a. change and then start implementing a. plan to do so. The other thing to think. about is that there are medications, off. label medications that have been. effective in alcohol use disorders and.

for opioid use disorders that work in. certain kinds of behavioral addiction. like Nalrexone. Um, and then in addition. to that, you may addictions tend to have. common co-occurring psychiatric. diagnoses. >> and it makes sense to get an evaluation. to see if you might struggle from. depression. Some of the symptoms that. you're describing have a lot of overlap. with that. Anxiety disorders like social. phobia or generalized anxiety can. sometimes overlap with addictions in. addition to other um, uh, impulse. control disorders, ADHD, psychotic.

disorders. So getting evaluated for that. and getting treatment can actually help. with the behavioral addiction if there's. a component of that to it. >> That's a mouthful. >> Sorry. >> I know. Because he's going, I'm not. psychotic. I'm just. >> He might not be. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But some people are. >> Yeah. I Yeah, some people are. >> I I I hear you. I hear that. Maddie and. Kyle are married and they are the. parents of two young children. They. wanted to share their story with us in. the hope that it will help some of you. who are watching or listening. So, let's. first watch a short video, a few clips.

from their social media. You'll hear. them use the word corn instead of the. real word uh for these videos so it. won't be flagged by the platform and. taken down. So, let's take a look. >> I was exposed to corn at the age of. eight and have struggled with an. addiction for the past 20 years. >> I'm married to a corn addict. He has. struggled since he was 8 years old. I. make it like my mission to watch his. every move, which is so draining. When. we were first married, I was super.

confused like why he didn't want to be. intimate all the time? I was like, don't. guys want to like do it all the time? >> For the longest time in my addiction, I. felt alone. I felt ashamed keeping it a. secret from family, friends, loved ones, my spouse. My heart breaks for. like younger Maddie like years ago that. thought like. that I wasn't enough. Addiction is a.

super tricky subject and I'm still. learning more about it. But I promise. you it has nothing to do with you. >> I want to share my story with others so. they don't feel alone in this. Maddie and Kyle, thank you for being. here. I know this is a hard thing to. talk about and I applaud your courage. and being willing to speak about it. because I hear this is really serious.

for a lot of people like millions and. millions of guys throughout the country. and the world. And what was surprising. to me, I remember doing shows about this. years ago when I was, you know, doing a. daily show. What's surprising to me is. that you became addicted or exposed so. young. So, what was going on that you. were 8 years old? >> Yeah. >> And you come across the corn. >> Yeah. Um, so yeah, I got exposed to it. when I was eight. Um, it was on my.

family's computer. Um, my stepdad at the. time had it on there. >> and I just came across it. Um, and like. uh it drew drew me to it. So, I just. kept going back and and looking at it. >> and it became your go-to for everything. >> Yeah. Like unintentionally. Um, my mom. was diagnosed with leukemia when I was. really young. Um, and was got really. sick there for a while. And so, unbeknownst to me, I was turning to it. to cover up my fear, my anxiety. Um, I.

felt that I needed to be the the old I. was the older sibling so I had to be. strong for my younger siblings. And so I. wasn't expressing, >> you know, my fear um with that. So I was. just turning to a corn for that release. >> Yeah. And so when you met Maddie, you all ended up getting married. Did. you ever tell her that you had this as. an issue? >> Um in the beginning when we were dating, I had mentioned Well, she asked if I had.

an issue with it and I said, "Yeah, I. I've viewed it in the past, but I have. it under control now." So I was I was. lying to her. Mhm. >> Yeah. You were lying. When did you. realize, Maddie, that it was um an. addiction and not what people always say. about this that all men watch it? >> Yeah. I hate when people say that. because like in even if it was he was. just watching it sometimes in our. marriage, I wouldn't be okay with that. But a month in, I found stuff on his. phone and it I like broke down. I was. like, "What is this?" And that's when he.

broke down and was like, "I have a. problem." And so I definitely felt. blindsided because we had talked about. it before. And so it was kind of. shocking to me, but that's when I found. out I was like a month in. >> So you were trying to hide it from her. >> Yeah. I was viewing it behind her back. and and just not telling her. >> Mhm. Mhm. So Maddie, you've said that. you're not sure your marriage will. survive this. Why? What do you want to say to the partners.

and and to the family members of people. who are struggling with this like you. are? >> Yeah, there's been many times that I. felt that we can't make it through. because the lies and like the betrayal. that come from finding out he was lying, but I do know lots of the time he was in. denial himself and didn't want to admit. that it was a bigger issue. So, um there is hope. Um, I would say for. the partners of addicts going through. this to know that.

as much as this addiction makes it feel. like it is your problem, like it is. because you're not enough. It is because. you're not a certain way, that is not. the case. It took me so many years to. learn that. >> How long have you all been married? >> We've been married 6 and a half years. >> So, I would say like the last year is. when I finally realized that like this. addiction is so much deeper. It's. something that he's used as an unhealthy. coping mechanism since he was 8 years. old. Like it started long before he knew. me. And I'm like, how many times do I.

try to break a bad habit and I have to. start over? And then this is an. addiction. So when you step back and. look at why they're using that to cope, it makes it easier to have compassion. and understand that you are enough and. this is something that you guys can get. through together as long as he's willing. and wants to. >> and you are willing. Oh, absolutely. >> He is now. >> He is now. >> He is. >> But I will say you were like, you can't. force an addict. The first couple years. I was like, you're doing this, you know,

and it took, I don't know, a couple. years for him to really want to do it. himself. And that's. >> and and why is that? Why is that, Kyle? Cuz you thought you you weren't that. bad. You're like a mirror. Like you're. like you've got it under control. >> Yeah. I mean, I was in denial about it. And then there's still that as far as. the addict aspect of it. Like I wanted. it still. I I wanted to have that. And. you know, you give up so much control to. an addiction and you want as much. control over other things as possible. So your free will or your choice on that.

is kind of what was the driving force. for a while that kept me from being in. recovery. >> I'm wondering is is is AI going to make. this worse? >> I think so. I think it's going to do two. things that are damaging. One is you you. don't need actors because you have AI. and so it's a bottomless pool of of uh. information that you have at your. disposal. And so there's just more. content available. The other thing is AI. is very good at learning what you like. and what's interesting to you and making. things that are tailored to your. preferences. So I think it's going to be.

weaponized in that way through AI and. that's I think a very big concern. >> Oh yeah. I remember doing a special on. and I was talking to Bill Gates about. this uh and to Sam Olman. I think I mean. people are going to be falling in love. with their AI. Yeah, they are. They are. They're going. to want to marry them. They're going to. want to fall in love with them. They're. going to be buying them presents and all. that stuff. It's It's going to get bad. I think it's going to I think And you. think it's going to get bad? >> I do. Yeah. >> And you think it's going to get bad. It's going to It It already is bad.

>> It's going to get worse. So, I want to. bring uh Connor McLaren and Alex Slater. into this conversation. They are members. of uh Gen Z who co-ounded Quitur Qui. TTR. It's a popular app designed to help. men break free from this addiction. So, Alex, what inspired you to take this on? >> Um, I'll say me and all my friends. struggled with it and no one was really. open about talking about it. Then it was.

a bunch of YouTubers that sparked this. new movement called self-improvement. Quitting porn was a part of that. Um, Gen Z were significantly underserved, so. I built an app for it. >> Right. So, you started it for yourself. originally? >> Sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. Because you were addicted to. >> I wouldn't say addicted, but I. definitely wanted to cut it out. >> And Yeah. As much control as I thought I. had, I didn't. >> Yeah. >> So, I built a better solution. >> Yeah. And so,

uh, so when you all got together and. decided you were going to create this. app. >> Yeah. And what does the app actually do? So, we set out to build an app that. makes it cool and fun to stop watching. adult content. And so, we built a. gamified accountability platform. And we. wanted to provide users with the most. tools and resources to help them get to. the finish line. When it comes to the. features, you get on the platform, you. set a commitment, you actually paid for.

the platform, so you have an intent to. quit. Um, we gain fight through streaks, education, resources, and most. importantly, we have a community and an. environment where you're not shamed when. you're vulnerable. >> Um, and you're supported. >> Yeah. That's the most important part. >> Yeah. Cuz I know you guys want to make. it clear that you're not psychologists, you're not scientists, you're not. professors, you're not doctors, but you. said it doesn't matter that you've. created a tool, this quitter, that.

actually works. And how do you know it. works? cuz we have like 25,000 fivestar. reviews on the app store. We have a. million downloads. We have people coming. up to us in person saying we've changed. their life and they're like 3 months. clean because of the platform. >> Mhm. >> And we have hundreds, thousands of. community posts a day, people saying, "Wow, I'm so grateful to be here. Found. this.". >> Is it just for people addicted to adult. content or is it also for people. addicted to gaming or people who can't. put their phones? >> It's just adult content for. >> It's just adult content. >> I wouldn't say addicted. It's just.

anyone that wants to stop. >> What is the process? How long does it. take? >> Usually like 90 days. >> 90 days. >> And this is from community posts, users. talking out publicly on the platform. saying that they get clarity after 90. days. That's when they kind of see the. light. And then users actually tend to. stay on to encourage other users. Um cuz. we we basically made it as cheap as. possible. >> Yeah. At a. >> yearly. That's the uh the dopamine. reset. >> Yeah. >> Pretty much what you guys talking about. That's how you reset the baseline. Um, I.

no longer feel impulsive to watch it. >> Have you heard about this? >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. You know about it? >> Have you tried it? >> Um, no. I haven't tried this. I've used. other apps similar like not so much. similar to that, but other apps to help. help quit. >> to just hold myself accountable. >> And is it working? >> Uh, yes. But I definitely I think in the. beginning of of my journey, they would. have been really nice to to know about. this app and to use it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Join us. Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So, Dr. Breezing, how is this having a. farreaching much deeper impact than. other behavioral. addictions. or people who just can't quit? Okay. So, there have been some concerning. trends actually in terms of sexual. behavior um and sexual health surveys. taken of college-aged women who are. reporting at increasing rates that. they're experiencing what you call. sexual asphyxiation or being choked by.

their sexual partners. at an increasing rate. The majority. actually of college age women in one of. these surveys reported being um recently. choked by a sexual partner. And the. researchers, well, >> this is because of. >> what they think is happening is that. there's increasing exposure to this type. of content. >> on adult content websites. And as a as a. consequence of that, like teenagers and. young people are actually learning about. sexual behavior through adult content.

websites and then experimenting with it. in their own relationships. >> Oh. And so therefore, there's an. increase in choking and all this because. as we were saying earlier that if you. start when you're eight years old, by. the time you get to be Kyle's age, you. need more intense more intense things to. happen in order for the dopamine hit to. >> so conventional human behavior that. would be present on that content is not. as stimulating. And so people tend to. seek out more provocative content or. more extreme content that can frequently.

tap into some of the things Dr. Caitlyn. was saying, which is aggression and at. times even violence. >> Wow, we're in trouble. Uh I know you. have something to say about this, Dr. Beayer. >> Yeah, I mean I I would uh I agree. wholeheartedly with Dr. Breezy. Um we we. are seeing that this is being used as an. educational resource. Okay. Pornography. increasingly. And what I think is really. important to point out,

>> an educational resource for whom? poor. young people about how to have sex. >> Okay, so this is not a rolledup playboy. under the bed from the '9s. >> This is much more potent. This is. fast-paced, unfortunately, oftentimes. violent short form content that people. are consuming at high high dosages and. that is normalizing. this type this this type of behavior.

>> And so I think we need to be it's really. uncomfortable to talk about, but I think. we do need to be honest about what's. going on here. Mhm. >> I think unfortunately we need to talk to. the young people in our lives. >> I like to use. >> They're not going to tell us. They're. going to do like Kyle. >> I like to use the analogy of a Marvel. film. >> Okay. >> I like to say. that just like a superhero film where. they shoot lasers out of their eyes. >> Yeah. >> This is a performance.

This is not reflective of most. normative, healthy, consensual. relationships. and it's not what is expected of you as. a woman or a man to do. And I think we. need to be really open about the fact. that this is the type of content that is. out there. and that we should not be using it as a. way to inform the way we engage with the. people we love. I think the corn's.

already out of the bag. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I think the corn's already out of the. bag. I don't I don't know how you're. gonna pull that back now. >> Absolutely. But if we we know that in. this country by the age of 13, half of. kids will have consumed often violent. pornography. >> Yeah. >> Okay. We know that. >> Adult content, >> sorry, >> adult. >> pornography. Yeah. And if we know that, we then have to. unfortunately have a more complex.

conversation than the one ones our. parents had to have with us. >> Yeah. >> Very concerning. I see you shaking your. head because you see the guys you are. >> So, this is actually amazing that you. said that because Alex and I have. restructured Quitter's mission on how do. we change culture? How do you make these. young men look up to people that don't. watch porn? How do you have NBA stars. and celebrities talk about this publicly. that they don't watch porn? It's changed. their life. Um, >> and on top of that, we're finding more.

and more that a significant amount of. our downloads are under 18 year olds. And so, but they're afraid. >> under 18. >> And so, how do you get them? They. >> want it themselves. And when we're. finding out they don't have credit cards. or they don't want to use their parents'. credit cards because of the shame. And. so, how do you coach parents to talk. about it with their kids in an open way. so it's okay and so they're not by the. time you're at Kyle's age and. potentially ruining a relationship. >> Yeah, >> that's right. >> Maddie, I want to go back to you because. you said something earlier about not.

blaming yourself and even in the video. you were saying you wanted to say to. everybody to know that if this is. happening in your life or going on in. your life, it really has nothing to do. with you. Did you blame yourself in the. beginning? Did you think I'm not. whatever enough? Um yeah, I did blame myself. I thought I. wasn't fit enough, hot enough, didn't. put out enough. But um even like. in our beginning of our marriage, like I. would try to be intimate with him, but.

he just wasn't interested because he had. viewed stuff earlier that day. So, you. know, but like it's hard not to take. that personal. Yeah. >> So that's why it took me so long to. learn more about addiction and then. realize it's really not about me. But. it's so much easier said than done. In. no way can you compare to whatever is on. those adult videos. Yes. >> There's no way. But something that I. like he's viewed this since he was 8. years old, but I tell myself like he. chose to marry me. He didn't have to. marry me. I didn't force him to marry. me. Like he still wanted to marry me.

>> So I remind myself that like I am. enough. And that's a totally different. issue. >> Yeah. You remind yourself. Do you. remind? >> He reminds me. Yes. >> And he reminds you too. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Cuz you want this to work out. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> You do. You want it to work out. >> Yeah. Absolutely. So, that's why I'm. doing what I'm doing to. >> put it behind me and, you know, not view. pornography. >> And are you I It doesn't make sense to. be upset the fact that you were exposed. at such a young age, but you understand. what happened to you, right?

>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I think in the. beginning I had a little like grudge. towards my my stepdad, but. >> I'm like, you know, I was going to come. across it eventually. Um, it just so. happened to be at that time. And so I I. have no hard feelings towards it, but. you know, in in the end, it was my. choice to to constantly go back and view. it. >> Yeah. What would you what would you say. to somebody who's going through what you. have been through and continue to go. through now? >> Um, >> knowing what you know? >> Yeah. This the hard part is like you you.

feel shame with with viewing this stuff. Um, just know that you're not alone and. that shame is what what keeps you in. your your addiction. And so, >> and you feel shamed because you are. married or would you feel shamed if you. weren't. >> married viewing it? I mean, I felt it. before I was ever dating anyone. I. always felt ashamed viewing this stuff. And so, it's like if you can just set. that aside and know that there's other. people out there that are that are going. through this millions. >> Yeah. And there are resources to to hold. on to that because it's possible to to. overcome this and it doesn't need to.

control your life and and have the. control over you that that it has at. this moment. >> What are the guys who've gone through. this with you? I I assume they're mostly. guys. Yeah. What do the guys who've gone. through this with you say after they. have been able to. better themselves? >> They're having better relationships with. people. They can communicate better. Loads of things. >> I think a lot of it too is we see that a. lot of men coming on the platform don't. develop relationships with women. Um. they don't try to go on dates. They. don't try to talk to them. And so we.

realize that once they quit, they're. like, "Well, how do I even talk to a. girl at a bar or like out to get coffee? like what do I say this and that um. >> what do I do like how do you go in for. your first kiss x y and z and it's like. they don't even have the self-confidence. but then after they see the light they. start developing self-confidence they. hit the gym they diet um and it's that. whole self-development. >> that's what Jonathan height says in his. book the anxious generation that there. is a whole generation of young men are. you all aware of this young men that. there's a whole generation of young.

young men who have not been socialized. to actually have a conversation ask. somebody out on a date, do that. Have. you experienced that? >> Absolutely. Yeah, that's exactly right. That um there's this sort of critical. period where you learn how to do all. these things. And if you put technology. between you and the human beings that. you're supposed to be interacting with, you never really develop those skills. And that critical period passes and then. it becomes very hard to be a especially. a young man sort of navigating the world. of trying to figure out how you talk to.

to potential partners. >> Yes. Especially if you've if you started. like Kyle at eight, it's it's a wonder. you got married, knew how to even ask. her. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's because it's easier to just not. speak to people. That's uncomfortable. But because we have phones now, we get. the same amount of dopamine by scrolling. or by texting. They just do that instead. >> Yeah. I admire you for creating this for. yourself and then being able to take. what was helpful to you and to use it to.

serve the world. Congratulations to you. all for doing quaqa. We didn't even have time to get into. jinz and online gambling which I know is. a growing problem. Dr. Breezing, before. we go, can we have a final word from. you? >> I think that when you're struggling with. addiction, it can be incredibly. isolating. You can feel very lonely. It. has a huge impact on families, on. couples. So, I would say like big. problems require a village. Get help.

Talk to people. talk to your friends, look in into having a specialist maybe. intervene and provide some guidance. >> Thank you. Thank you all for being here. today. Adam, you get the last word. What. should we be doing now? Uh what should. companies be doing? >> I I think companies need to be forced to. do the right thing. I think just hoping. they'll do the right thing is is it is. hoping for a lot. But the best thing. they can do is to take a leaf out of the. book of companies that have made very. successful products in the past using a. different approach. Um, one example of.

this that I' I've always found very. interesting is, uh, Chagarro Miiamoto, who was the main developer at Nintendo. of some of the bestselling games of all. time, used to give the games to his. friends, and he would just say, "I knew. a game was good, worth pursuing, and. worth making if they enjoyed it, if they. got value out of out of it, and it. actually made their lives better.". Instead of just measuring how much time. people spent on the device or on the. game. So I think the the key metrics. have to change from how much welfare do. you bring into the world rather than how. many minutes of your time can I extract.

daytoday and and that's the way a lot of. these companies operate today and that's. that's the problem. >> Adam Alter's book Irresistible is. available wherever books are sold and. Dr. Caitlyn Regger's new book Smartphone. Nation will be released on October 28th. You can pre-order that book now. Thank. you for being vulnerable enough, open. enough, willing enough, courageous. enough to share your stories with us. here today. Thank you so much for coming. this way. As always, thank you to our. listeners and this audience for being.

with us. I'll see you next week. Go. well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Over Podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll. see you next week. Thanks everybody.