Eric Puchner: “Dream State” | Oprah’s Book Club

Welcome, Eric. [applause and music]. Thank you so much. You were so stunned when I called. I was incredibly stunned [music] when. you called. In fact, my publicist had. made me think that he was just calling. to talk about something [music] kind of. boring. Hello. Hello. Is this Eric? Yes, it is. Eric. Hi. It's Oprah Winfrey. Oh my god. Yeah. Oh my god. I [music] teach at Johns. Hopkins University and I I get terrible.

reception in my office. So I was. crouched in my car in [music] this kind. of ugly parking lot and then it was. Oprah on the line and almost dropped the. phone. I was completely astonished. Well, it's great to have you here. I. told you we were going to be in at. Starbucks books and conversation [music]. and you know what you said? Oh, will I. be a part of that? [laughter]. That's the whole idea. Eric, [music]. hi everybody. Welcome to Oprah's Book. Club presented by Starbucks. Hello. [applause].

We're here in the gorgeous New York City. Starbucks and we are having some. interesting books, conversation, and. coffee. And we are all readers here. Hello readers. [applause]. I think that your neighborhood Starbucks. is a great place to get together with. friends with a copy of my new book club. pick and connect over a delicious cup of. curated coffee. The pairing for this. book is a matcha latte. My 111th book.

club pick is a real page turner and an. emotional roller coaster. Wouldn't you. say? It is the novel Dream State by Eric. Hookner. An absolute masterpiece, [music] a. wonder of character and craft. Beautiful, brilliant, one of the most. anticipated books of 2025. [music]. That's just some of the literary praise. for Eric Bookner's novel, Dream State.

It's set among the serene lakes and. picturesque mountains of Montana, which. is its own dream [music] state. This is. a story about Cece, who's arrived alone. in town one month early to plan her. wedding. [music] It's also about her. fianceé Charlie, who's a doctor back in. Los Angeles, and his best friend. Garrett, who just [music] happens to be. the officient for the wedding. When the. tumultuous wedding day arrives, Cece. makes a shocking choice that [music]. affects everybody in her life. That's. when Dream State becomes a story about a.

love triangle [music]. spanning 50 years. This is a story of. opportunity, grief, commitment, [music]. family, marriage, longing, regrets, parenthood, connection, human nature, friendship, and life. I sat down at. Starbucks [music] in New York City with. the author and a cafe full of readers. Married people in here. A lot of married. people. Resonated, right? The audience told us why they connected. so deeply to these beautifully written.

characters. [music]. Your writing style is brilliant. that. you create the characters. They're so. in-depth and they keep going. When I. read this line in the book, I was just. immediately just like I was like, "Yes, I wanted to know where the title came. from and what you were thinking about. it.". The way that you move [music] time along. in the book is magnificent. Dream State really affected [music] how. I perceive my own marriage. That's why Eric Bookner's Dream State is. my [music] 111th Oprah's book club. selection. So, we don't want to give away the plot,

but my hope is that people buy and read. the book Dream State and then come spend. some time with us on this podcast to. hear how you wrote this piece of art. It. really is. But for now, I want you to. set up for us the characters and the. plot. What's the story? And first of. all, how did the story come to you? Okay. Um, well, it didn't come to me all at once. Okay. Um, but the story is about a.

lakehouse uh in Montana, northwestern. Montana, in the fictional town of. Salish, Montana. The lake is actually. based on a real lake, Flathead Lake in. Montana. And the house in the book is. based on a house that I have been going. to for the past 25 years every summer. with my family. It's my wife's. great-grandfather's house. he built it. and uh it was out of the family for a. while, but then it came back into the. family. The story about the house that. it's based on is that my wife's.

great-grandfather was a Lithuanian Jew. who immigrated to Montana and was so. destitute he lived in a packing crate. for a while and then ended up starting a. dry goods store and making some money. that way and ended up building this. house. He lived in Glasgow, Montana, but. he ended up building this house on. Flathead Lake in the 19 early 1930s. Um, it took a long time because apparently. the carpenter was a total drunk. Uh, and. if you go and you look at the house, there's not whenever someone comes to do.

work on the house, there's not a single. right angle in the entire house. Um, but. it's a house that um is really near and. dear to my heart and that I I love. Is the house still there? Oh, it's still there. We go I'm going. this summer. Yeah. So, we go there every. summer. Okay. Well, that's good to know cuz we. cuz we know what happens in the story, but we're not saying. Okay. Our audience has read the book and. came ready with questions. Kim, where. are you? Okay, there you are. Hi. Your writing style is brilliant and. you create the scenery. You create the.

characters and they're so in-depth and. they keep going. How does your process. begin? Like what like inspires you? Well, thank you for saying that. Um, you. know, writing a novel is really hard. It's never going to be perfect. And one. of the wonderful things about a novel is. its ambition and that it can afford in. the way a short story can. It can it can. afford to be a little bit messy. So when. I was thinking about this novel, I was. thinking about something that actually. happened, which was this kind of awful.

wedding story. And I was actually the. officient in this wedding. Um, I won't. tell you who it is, but um, people who I. know well. And they had they had a. wedding at the house in Montana um in. which everyone got norovirus um which is. features in the book but you know if you. don't know what norirus is is incredibly. infectious stomach. I had it [laughter]. I had it this summer and I so related. and like we all were at the dinner table.

and then somebody else got it and. somebody else got it is the worst. possible feeling. I thought I was gonna. die and I thought death is gonna be. okay. It's all right. [laughter]. Just let me go. Just let me go. Yeah, it's really bad. It's super contagious. So. that's why I don't know how Charlie. stood it. I don't know how Charlie. you know what happened in the actual. wedding was that um one of the flower. girls threw up on the way down the aisle. um cuz she was sick. Anybody here ever had it? Noro virus?

No. Oh, okay. You have? Yeah. Yeah. Coming out of both ends. It's. terrible. not pleasant. Um, and the. but I lost six pounds. I was so happy. [laughter]. Small weights. I thought, "Wow, this is. great. Hit the goal." All right. Um, [laughter]. it is a good way to lose weight. Definitely. Great way to lose weight really quickly. Go ahead. Um, so, uh, the group, the flower girl was throwing up. Oh,

boy. And what do people do when that. happens? And they, well, it's in the middle of a. wedding. You can't stop a wedding. And. and the groom was also green cuz he had. it, but he didn't want to admit to. having it. And so and then afterwards, much like in the book, they had hired a. square dance band to play. And so. everyone was dosey-doing and passing the. Nora virus from one to the other and got. it to the other. And so, um, I had this. in mind as like something I wanted to. sort of head toward as the kind of. fulcrum of the book. And and I knew I. wanted to write about that setting, um, because I love that setting so much.

This novel started because of the no. virus at the weddings. [laughter] Yeah. Wow. Okay. Um so yeah, I mean I was heading towards. that that moment. I really didn't know. what was going to happen after that. honestly. Um I just knew that that was. going to everything was going to change. And I also wanted to write a sort of. novel about marriage. Um a kind of. marriage story, a marriage plot that. ends with the wrong marriage. I thought. that was interesting.

Okay. [laughter]. And that just came to you. I want to. write about a marriage plot that is the. wrong marriage. It did because I didn't I mean the. marriage plot has been done so many. times and um the uh the epigraph of the. book is is from Midsummer Night's Dream. I was thinking about that sort of plot. that ends in a marriage and I thought. how can I make that original? Um and so. I thought well we'll have a marriage. halfway through the book but it's not. the right marriage. And in fact um they.

they don't get their you know marriage. paper certified uh so they don't end up. being married. Uh so I was just. interested in that and I didn't actually. come up I don't want to give anything. away but it to the end of the book. returns to the marriage that we see a. glimpse of halfway through the book. For. a long time I didn't know how to end the. book. I was I knew that it was spanning. 50 years that it was going into the. future that it was about this next. generation. um as well and how they would deal with. the mistakes from the past both the sort. of you know mistakes that the characters.

have made but also the mistakes that. society has made but I didn't know how. to end it and I was at a a writer's. residency in in New York and uh I was. there for a week and I was like I. finally got this res residency I have a. leave off of work and I don't know I. can't write I don't know what to do. because I can't end this thing and then. it occurred to me to go back to that um. original wedding and to finish it and to. write it as if this was a different. almost like dream life that that might. have occurred. Um and I actually started. crying. I was so happy that I had come.

up with a way to to end end the book. I thought the dream life had something. the dream state which is the name of the. book had something to do with this um uh. psychotic depression or depressive. psychosis that Garrett went through. It. had nothing to do with that. No, it had. a lot to do with that as well. Um, yeah, thank you for picking up on that. And. there's also a moment um when Jasper, who becomes a drug addict, is talking. about feeling like his life is is always.

a dream. And I just started thinking. about the way that we feel like we're. often sort of trapped in a dream these. days. Everyone's on the internet all the. time. These awful things are happening. in the world. We we we're on our phones. We see that they're happening. It's and. for Jasper, it's particularly acute. because he has a heart condition um and. there's a you know something in his. heart that saved him um saved his life. and so he feels sometimes feels that his. life is dreamlike. Okay, we've been asking this question.

If you could have coffee with any of the. characters in the book, who would it be? I think I would have coffee with Cece. I. just I like her a lot and I think she. How many are you Cece coffee people? Okay. Okay. Okay. I would have thought more. I think she would make the best coffee. [laughter] by far. Garrett is he makes. like coffee. You're going to meet at a Starbucks and. have the coffee. [laughter] Okay. But. you would have coffee with Cece. I would. have I would have had co coffee with. Jasper. Okay. Anybody else? Who would.

you who would you choose to have coffee. with? Yes. Yes. Jasper, too. Jasper people. Jasper. people. Okay. Garrett people. Okay. Charlie people. No, Charlie. [laughter]. Atlanta people. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Very. good. All right. So, you've said that. you were drawn to characters who find it. difficult to navigate through life. because those are the people who you. often are drawn to in your own life. And.

so, that was also a part of the writing. for this. Absolutely. Um, I mean, it's partly that. when you write a novel, only trouble is. interesting, but also I think one of the. wonderful things about a writer is being. able to empathize with people who are. really struggling. Um, and I'm. interested in that in my work. I'm also. interested in my life. And I I wanted to. write about Jasper in particular. I two. close friends of mine, my best friends. in high school, both became heroin.

addicts. So, I was interested in writing. about that epidemic. Okay, Jenna, you. have a question. Normally novels last, you know, they're sometimes shorter. They're like 10 years in span, 10, 20. years. You chose to do a 50, almost 60. year spanning novel. Why did you choose to do something so. lengthy that covers so many friendships, relationships, drama, all that kind of. stuff? And what do you hope that people. take away from it? That's a terrific question. Um, I'm. really drawn to novels that are.

ambitious in that way with their use of. time. Uh, one of my favorite novels is. Light Years by James Salter. Um, also. sort of focuses on a house and a family. I guess I'm drawn to novels in which. time is the antagonist because I feel. that's sort of the way [laughter] that. our lives are are led and grappling with. that reality was really important to me. Um, and obviously also I was interested. in climate change and the sort of. devastating effects um, particularly in.

the West, American West, because one of. the things that's happened since we. started going to this area in Montana. um, 25 years ago is that I've watched it. change dramatically. I've watched the. landscape change and uh, it's not far. from Glacier National Park. It's. gorgeous there. Uh, it used to have 150. glaciers. It's down to 25. So all that. snow that used to be there isn't there. anymore. And so it's having an effect on. all the lakes and the lake levels. Um. it's having a huge effect on biod. diversity and also with all the fires.

sometimes we go there uh for a week um. or 2 weeks and we can't go outside for. most of that time because the air. quality index is like in the red and. it's very unhealthy. Um, so it's tragic. what's happening there. And so, but I. wanted that to be that to be part of the. book. And. yeah, I I think the scenery Montana, first of all, Montana is having a moment. right now. And I think all of it feels. like it's its own character. Yeah, thank you. And you wanted it to. You wanted to.

I did. Absolutely. That's on purpose. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, uh, I think also the desire to be. authentic comes through a lot in the. book. I I remember in the beginning I. was struck by that sentence where she. was being complimented by all the. teachers because she wanted to be a. pediatric neurosurgeon and then realize. that she just liked the sound of it and. like the way it sounded and the way. people treat you when you say I'm going. to be a pediatric neurosurgeon versus.

actually what that really means. Yes. So. there's a lot of play on what it means. to be authentic in this book. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really interested. in the sort of divide between our. private and public selves. Um, and I. think one of the trickiest things in. life is bridging that divide. Um, I also. think like what we think we want isn't. necessarily what we truly want or what. we should want. And I'm very interested. in characters who think they want the.

wrong thing for themselves. And we as. readers know that. No, that's actually. that's not that's not what you want with. with Cece. It's sort of like um trying. on different masks. Uh because pediatric. neurosurgeon since she was a kid, she. was sort of in love with those words. I. mean, that's there's that's language. And um and and once she got to med. school, she realized, god, I hate this. This isn't this isn't fun and I I'm not. interested in this. Um so, she has to. change attack, but she also is confused. as to she she wants to do something. great in the world, and she just doesn't. know. Well, one of the things we I think.

we all appreciated about this book are. that the characters are going through so. much of what we all have experienced in. our own lives, like where am I going and. what does this mean and how am I. defining myself and am I just defining. myself? Is this really real to me? Yeah, you were able to capture that so well. And also, I think male friendship, which. I'd never thought of this this way. before, you say on page 140, male. friendship was all about rhythm. It was. a kind of song without words, an.

instrumental you knew by heart. You. learned the rhythm together and. practiced it all the time for days and. months and years, perfecting it by feel. It was the swing of your silences, the karaoke track behind the gibberish. you sang. What the hell [laughter]. were you thinking then when you wrote. that? How long did it take you to come. up with that? First of all, you have the. idea and then you have to form the words.

to express this idea to us. How long did. that take? A long time. I I labor over my. sentences. I write them and rewrite them. and rewrite them. Um. because you love sentences. I love sentences. That's I'm never so. happy when I'm rewriting a sentence. Um. I mean, I love my family, too. I I. [laughter]. But um but it does make me uniquely. happy for some reason. Um I I I think a. lot of finished that sentence. You just. went, "Yeah, [laughter]. I'm going to have a matcha latte.".

[laughter]. Yeah. Yeah. Um I I think a lot about. male friendship. Um I have. I think a little bit like um Garrett. Garrett and Charlie, who are the main. two main male characters in the book, have a sort of friendship in college. that I never really found in college. I. didn't find until I was later. I never. really understood how to talk to most. men in a way that um they understood.

[laughter]. So um it wasn't until later and I went. to grad school um and then I was at. Stanford for a while doing a fellowship. there that I made the best friend male. friends of my life. But they're all. writers, you know, and we have a common. language, I think. Um. you all love sentences. We like sentences. Yeah. Um, but I also. I also think that so much of male. friendship revolves around like wanting. to say something to that person like, "I. love you, man. You're you're amazing. You know, you're terrific. Um, you're.

really important to me." But not being. able to say it. But if you said that, they'd go, "Oo.". Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um because. that's not being that sort of direct can. be misinterpreted, I guess. And so you. have to sort of communicate that in. subtler ways. And that's what you mean. by the rhythm. The rhythm of your. a song without words. I mean, when you're hanging out with. your male friends, you can insult each. other and it's like I love you, right? Yeah. I don't know that, but Okay.

Right. And you're lucky. Yeah. [laughter] Okay. Okay. So, that's. what you meant by it's a song without. words. Okay. An instrumental you knew by. heart. You learned the rhythm together. and you practiced it all the time. because that's what guys do. They're. doing that all the time for days and. months and years. And it was a swing of. your silences. The karaoke track behind. the gibberish you sang. Explain that to. me. The karaoke track behind the. gibberish you sang. So it's not the words the words that. you're saying to your male friends.

That's just sort of gibberish. It's. jokey. It's banter. It's insult humor. Right. But then there is like the rhythm. that the of your of the of your speech. of the conversations of the all the. times that you've spent together doing. various things that's in the background. and that is sort of the heft of the. friendship. That's the karaoke track. that doesn't change. Well, that's why this is a brilliant. sentence. Really good sentence, sir. I'm glad I could explain it. Okay, good. [laughter]. Okay, Sarah. Sarah, you have a question?

Yes. Okay. I have a question about the theme. of grief and loss. It just seemed so. consistent throughout the whole story. and particularly each of the characters. and how they experienced it in this. different way. And so I was curious if. you were writing from a place of your. personal experience or from like if how. your language and the the sentences and. everything was informed by your own. personal experience. I actually was. writing the novel and started writing. the novel more seriously after my mom.

died. Um, my mom had Alzheimer's for 10. years and it was uh really horrific. actually. So, I was feeling that very. much and it's all I could think about. So, uh Cece's plot, her backstory and. the death of her mom when she was young, that didn't happen to me. This, you. know, my mom died um fairly recently, but yeah, it was it was important to me. And then of course there's another death. in the book which happens skiing. Um and. uh I'm a lifelong skier. I I sort of.

kind of grew up in Utah cuz so much of. my family lives there. And um and I've. had um both my brother and my sister. have seen people die in avalanches. They're really serious. They go hella. skiing, do all this serious skiing. And. so um I was also thinking about that. kind of loss too. The sudden very sudden. loss. I think the way that you explore. the mysteries of marriage will resonate. with a lot of people. Did you all think. married people in here? A lot of married. people. Okay. Resonated, right?

I think this is such an astonishing. section on page 289. You say they'd been. married 24 years to the day and yet. these spaces still widened between them, ones they didn't have the energy to. cross. Then out of the blue, on their. anniversary, no less, he discovered he. couldn't speak to her properly or really. at all. He might as well have married a. plant. It was heartbreaking. It broke. Garrett's heart. Sometimes marriage felt. like a dazzling present they didn't want.

to soil or scratch, didn't have the. courage to actually use, and so they. locked it up in the garage where neither. of them could touch it. Okay. Have you been able to crack the. code, the secret to marriage? I just want to say I loved hearing you. read that sentence. Will you do my audio. book? That was wonderful. Um, no, I. haven't cracked the code of marriage. I. I mean, I think that marriage is. everything. It's um it's those moments. and it's the moments when you feel.

incredibly connected. I think the. there's a a moment in the book um where. uh Garrett is Garrett becomes a wildlife. biologist and he's thinking about sort. of occasionally being attracted to his. um the his partners who come up and work. with him and he he uses this equipment. to track wolverines and he thinks about. using sort of like satellite equipment. to track the future and he always like. says like I I try to like find myself 10. years in the future and I think would.

would this be a good idea? to cheat on my on my wife with this. person said, "No, it's a terrible idea.". Right? Even if you're feeling incredibly. estranged um from from your spouse. And. so um I think that one of the things. that makes marriage wonderful for me, I. mean, I speak for myself and deeply. meaningful is that you have this. commitment that informs everything you. do. And even when it's the the really. hard times that you're going through, that commitment sees you through. And. it's I can't think of anything more.

beautiful in life honestly than. committing yourself to a person despite. having hardship. Okay, Heather, where are you? Okay. Um, yeah, dream state really um affected how. I perceive my own marriage. Um, when I. finished reading the book at 3:00 in the. morning, I went into the living room. where my husband was asleep on the couch. and he's been sleeping there for like a. few months now because I have menopause. and I have hot flashes and I, you know, drenched the bed and he snores very. loudly and also my mother also passed.

away recently and his father passed away. and so just all the busyiness and all. the loss that we've experienced, I felt. like I needed to put a separation. between us so that I could breathe. But. I realized after reading this book that. what I really needed to do was to. connect more with him and to actually. put away uh the cell phone and the. computer. Um so my question to you is. when you were writing this book did your. um did you see your your own marriage in. a different lens?

Well that's a a beautiful question and. thank you. Um I feel like. my husband thanks you too. Yeah. [laughter]. He is off of that sofa after three. months. [laughter] And what did it? Dream state. Honey, I was reading this book and now. you can come off the sofa. I feel. [laughter] better. Really? That really. was it? What What part of the book did. that for you? Um how Garrett wakes up one day and he. se looks at Cece and he says, "Oh, it. was, you know, she was like a plant.".

Yeah. And I didn't want to wake up next to my. husband or, you know, during the day and. and think of him as something that I had. to care for, but something that he. really was something that I needed. And. we need each other and I need to put. away all the other stuff. Wow. Wow. That. Well, that is good for a novel to do. that. Yes. I I feel like I can die happy now. I. [laughter]. Wow. Um that's that's wonderful. I. totally forgot what the original. question was. However, [laughter].

so my question is while you're writing. this book, do you see your marriage in a. different lens? I think it helped me see my marriage in. the way that I have always seen it. And. I think it was healthy to sort of. interrogate what marriage is in the. book. Um, and to have a character like. Garrett who begins by saying like, you. know, oh god, why would you want to get. married? It's just a bajgeoa construct, you know. Um, and he sort of comes. around um, and it's interesting because. my my wife and I, we never thought we'd. actually get married. We live together.

for years before we actually get we've. been. How many years? We've been together for close to 30. years. So, we never thought we wanted to. actually tie the knot. And then we said, "Oh, we'll just have a let's just do it. so we can have a big party with all our. friends." And also, there was health. insurance and that sort of [laughter]. thing. Um, and we did it and it actually did. change something. You know, we were both. surprised. We suddenly had that extra. feeling of just like security and love. that we didn't have before. And she's a writer, too. And you both.

love sentences, so that [laughter] makes. that loving sentences. She may have come to hate my sentences. She read my book so many times for me. Um, we read each other's work all the. time and um, but yeah, I hope I hope. that answers your question to a certain. degree. So, hi is here and she has a question. The way that you move time along in the. book is magnificent for my reader's mind. and also for my writer's mind when I'm. thinking about craft when I'm reading. Did you intentionally do your time.

transitions that way before going into. the writing or was it something that. came as you were writing the story? That's an excellent question. Um, and a. very sort of writerly question. Yeah, we. think about that stuff all the time, right? Um, what do you leave on the page. and what do you allide? Um, I don't I. write my novels the way most of my. friends write novels. Um, which is there. you write an exploratory draft, your. first draft. Um there's a Eel Doctoro. quote where he says, "Writing a novel is.

like uh driving at night in the fog. You. can only see as far as your headlights.". And um that's always how I feel. So I'm. always struck when I when I read a quote. from like Nebachov or something who says. uh oh, you need to plan out your entire. novel in advance or you're not a real. writer. I'm like I don't know anybody. who does that. If you don't surprise. yourself, you're not going to surprise. the reader. And the characters aren't. going to come alive in the way that you. want them to come. You want them to come. alive and start doing things that you. didn't expect. That's that's what's fun. for me in the writing. And where are they? Like alive in your.

head. It's like living with voices. Yeah. Yes, it is. I mean, you walk. around, if you're deep in a novel, it's. um very aggravating for your wife, but. but very fun because you walk around and. you have this entire population in your. head um doing things. You go for a run. and like a whole chapter writes itself. because CeCe decides to do something you. didn't expect. Wow. And then what? [laughter]. you're running. You don't have your. computer or a pen, so you you you're running and you got to.

get back and put that down, right? Yeah. And I don't have a photographic. memory or anything. So, um yeah, I. running is is very important to my. writing process. I um I don't I think. people have this sort of idea, which is. not the right idea, it's a false idea, that you have to actually be actively. sitting in front of your computer. waiting for inspiration to strike. and. you can't if you leave your computer, you're not writing. I think some of the. most productive time I I take as a. writer is uh when I'm just walking. around. I've turned off that sort of.

like intellectual part of my brain and. some secret part of my brain is bubbling. away. And um so sometimes I go for a run. and it's like teleportation. I'm. immediately back at my house. I don't. remember the run at all, but I have like. a whole new chapter in my head and I. have to rush upstairs and and furiously. write down what. you write computer or hand. I I I I do. the actual composing on a computer, but. I I jot a lot of notes down on by hand. This is one of my other favorite quotes. in the book on page 278. Life was a long.

incompetent search to get back to a. feeling you had when you were six. Didn't we all love that? Did you all How. many of you underline that or noted. that? And the reason we I liked it so. much is because you didn't say four. You. didn't say five or eight or 10. You said. six. And everybody, don't we all. remember six? I mean, because it's like. first grade. It's you're feeling. yourself. You got your patent leather shoes on for.

Easter. I mean, what how did you How did. this line come from? Just something I feel. Uh I mean, it's. hard for me to say where it came from. I. just have always sort of felt that. Um, you you have you feel things so deeply. when you're that age and the world is. like a sensory experience all the time. Um, and emotionally it's such a charged. time, you know. Erica, this was one of. your favorites, too, right? Yes. I think I think that this sentence.

beautifully captured like what I'm. feeling right now and my life. I'm a. midlife right now and there's just so. many things that are constantly going. through my mind and I find myself living. in this like perpetual nostalgic state. of reflection of like who I am now. versus who I was when I was a kid and. how I connect the dots back to that and. really kind of chasing what happiness. and freedom look like then. And so when. I read this line in the book, I was just. immediately just like I was like yes. I. was like this this is it. Like you know. you try to capture how you're feeling in.

life and you like look for sentences. that kind of and words to kind of. express that. And so I was really. touched by this. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. That's that means a lot to. me. Thank you. Yeah. And so you remember you were six. Were you writing then? Did you love. sentences at six? I did. I always I knew I wanted to be a. writer at a very young age, but it. wasn't until I was a little bit older. I. started writing very bad poetry. Um we. had an old typewriter and I would clack. away and I loved e coming so of course I.

didn't use any punctuation or anything. Um, and I remember writing, this is when. I was a bit older, 13 or something, and. I I wrote a poem called 3:00 a.m. and. train on Sachs, Col Train, right? John Col Train. Um, because I I liked jazz. Uh, and I'd. never been up till 3:00 a.m. in my life, but I had this idea of, you know, God, it's so cool to be a writer, right? So, you stay up till 3:00 a.m. Um, and you. listen to really great jazz and you do. that sort of thing. But then my I have. an older brother who's about 10 years.

older than me. And I must have been about eight and and. for Christmas he got the collected. stories of Ray Bradbury. It was this he. has a lot of stories those of you who. know Bradbury and it was like this big. and it was one of those old like tomes. from the 70s that has the author's photo. covered the entire back of the book. And. so I was starting before that when I. read stories I thought the language just. fell out of the sky miraculously or. something. I didn't think about. authorship that somebody actually wrote. those words, but this is the first time. I kept looking at the back and there was. Ray Bradberry. I was like, "Oh my god,

he wrote this sentence and he wrote this. sentence. Wow." I mean, and I was like, "I want to do that." And that's when I. first. and I want my picture on the back. [laughter]. Yeah. That's really great. You say this. about parenting. What a mystery your own. children were. You gave them everything. and it was like tossing a coin into a. well. I think so many parents relate to. that feeling. Does this phrase come from. your experience as a father? Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. I think the biggest thing I've learned. from being a parent, and I've loved. being a parent most of the time. One of. the biggest things I've I've learned is. that you love your kids and you have an. idea of who they're going to become, and. they don't become that. There's no kid. on earth who like, you know, adhered to. the idea of their identity that their. parents had for them, but then you love. them anyway. They're completely. different people than you expected and. you have to love them anyway. And that's. been like really profound for me. Wonderful. Okay, Julia, where are you? I'm right here.

Hi. Hi. So, my grandmother suffered from. dementia for years and it was a very. incredibly hard and difficult and. emotional time for my family, especially. my dad. He had to make a lot of the. tough decisions. And reading about the. character in the book and seeing how the. family navigated love responsibilities. and the biggest thing managing your own. grief made me really think about how a. writer can go about writing about. dementia and the family and I wanted to.

know sort of your personal experiences. connected to that and how you went about. creating that demographic. Yeah, that's a wonderful question and. very well put. Um, yeah, I I really didn't feel like I had. a choice but to sort of write about my. mother. Um, she was occupying my. thoughts constantly. So, one of the things I tried to do was. to capture dementia in the way that it. really is. Um, I don't know if I. accomplished that or not, but um, a much. much of that stuff in the book actually.

happened. But I also there's a section a. brief section of the book where I enter. my mom's my mom. God, she's not my mom. I'm sorry. I enter Cece's point of view. um and uh and try to imagine what it. must have been like for her. And um. obviously Cece is very different from my. mother and Cece's thoughts very. different from my mother's, but that was. a really important step for me to take. I wanted her to have a voice um while. she was in the throws of dementia as. well. Um and it's it's one of my.

favorite passages in the book. And as one of the main characters, Garrett, nears the end of his life, he. shares this regret that he should have. enjoyed himself more. His only youth. Wow. Nobody wants to be Garrett in that. moment. I should have enjoyed myself. more. His only youth. Do you have those. same regrets or know somebody who has. those regrets? I think everybody in this room has. regrets, don't they? Um, yeah. I mean,

one of the things I wanted to do in the. book. Y'all do. Yeah, you do. Time just gets away from you depending. on when your life starts. Yeah. So, I had children early and then you go. to work. You have bills to pay. And I. had children before a lot of my friends. did. So, they were out traveling and. doing more things. And I'm lifing. I'm. taking care of my children. And then in. turn my mother got sick and I was taking.

care of her. So now I'm trying to. be conscious in doing something that I. want to do whether or not anyone else. wants to do it. I'm an only child, so. I'm used to doing things by myself. I'm. going to do what I enjoy doing. So now. I'm lifing. You're lifing. Enjoying life. Enjoying life. Enjoying. life. Trying to. Thank you. enjoying lifing with us here. in the Starbucks Cafe. Thank you. [laughter] That's why you're out having. coffee with us today. So, where did that.

line come from? Well, I'm somebody who often experiences. regret. I'm not saying that the regret. is is actually apt or wellplaced. Um, but I can't even like order dinner. without feeling like, oh, I ordered the. wrong thing is, you know, immediately. after I ordered it. So, um, but, um, I. think it's a sort of dangerous mentality. to have this kind of life is elsewhere. mentality. And that's sort of what what. I mean it's a main theme of the book is. this these sort of trap doors of regret.

that you can fall into. Um when actually. you know if if CC had ended up marrying. Charlie she would have had a different. life and she would have had regrets. Spoiler. That was a spoiler. Okay. That was a spoiler. So, um, yeah, I mean, I think life, part of learning. how to live is learning how to live with. regret and not let it overshadow, um, your happiness. Um, it's so easy to sort. of drift to that other life you might.

have had. Well, I think she would had great regret. if she'd married him, don't you? Probably. Yeah. Um, but I. What do you all think. that she would have had regret had she. married Charlie? Yes. Because Yes. Why? Why do you say so? Uh there was no right decision for her. to make. She was going to be regretful. either way. She would have been regret. she would have regretted not exploring. the openness that she was experiencing. with Jared cuz she was sharing so much. with him. And she didn't have that. openness with Charlie. It felt like at.

least early in the book. Yes. And so she was either going to. experience the regret as she or. experience the guilt. Experience the. guilt also. Okay. U you actually have a. question for Eric. Yeah, when I picked. up the book, I thought early in the book. you mentioned Montana and I thought. Dream State was going to be about the. dream state of Montana and its beauty. and then everything goes to ruins, things burn down to the ground to the. end. But then I was also thinking about. the book and I thought, was dream state.

the life of low consciousness that all. of the characters almost go through? So, and I'm sure the the right answer is. something else entirely in your head. So, I wanted to know where the title. came from and what you were thinking. about it. Well, I'll just start by. saying a disclaimer. I'm terrible at. titles. Like I I have. Claire Keegan just said this about uh. small things like this. He said she's. terrible, too. Okay. There's the writing and then there's the. titling. They should they should form it out to.

somebody else. He's just a title. [laughter] specialist. That's their job, right? Um so, um the. actually the original title was Old. Light. Uh, which you know I liked it. Old light. Old light. Yeah. No. Yes. [laughter]. I rest my case. Right. No. No. I'm not picking that up. Okay. I'm I'm so glad I changed it. [laughter].

Okay. Go ahead. Old light. All right. I don't even see where that. comes from. [laughter]. It comes from a poem, but I it's um. we didn't read the poem, so we're. picking up the book. I don't know what. you're talking about. Okay. No, you're absolutely right. I um so. yeah, dream state. I mean, it has the. obvious sort of literal meaning, which. is like this is a state that's. beautiful, Montana. Um but it's also. getting less beautiful in many different. ways. And so it's an ironic title. But.

then, as I said before, I was interested. in this idea of life seeming more and. more like a dream these days. Um, and. that has to do with climate change, but. it also has to do with the way that we. seem to live our lives so much online. partly. Um, so yeah, uh, it just seemed. to resonate in that way. And then, and. then with the final chapter, I won't say. anything to actually be a spoiler, but, um, there's a sense of a whole another a. whole another life that could have been. lived that sort of, you know, reflects. like a dream. And so that all of those.

things. Yeah. Yes. I love this sentence on page 371. Maybe marriage was like that. Gradually. you renamed the world and created a new. one. One only you could enter. You. turned flowers into money. Took the. lullabi of unexciting days and called it. happiness. I just love that sentence. And I know. you gave yourself a round of applause.

when you finished that sentence, didn't. you? Didn't you say the lullaby of. exciting? Yes. Of exciting day. Where. did that line come? I love that. The lullaby of exciting days and called. it happiness. Well, I think I was trying to get at the. fact that despite almost despite. herself, CeCe finds happiness in the. routine of her marriage. Um. and um and I I feel that and I think as. we get older, I think um I don't know. I.

I don't want to speak for anybody else. I feel that more and more that um it's. actually it's it's not the exciting. stuff. It's sort of the kind of banal. stuff. It's the waking up having coffee. with your wife, reading the paper stuff. together, sitting on the front porch. That's. that's happiness. That's the lullabi. Yeah, that's the lullaby. Um and there's. a way that I think when you have an. incredibly close relationship with. somebody, you change the world. I mean. things because you have this connection, you see things in a way that no one else.

really sees them. It's idiosyncratic and. unique and I I think that's what I was. trying to get at there. That's what you did get at. beautiful sentences. Thank you so much. We're glad you love sentences. Eric. Bookner, thank you so much for Dream. State and uh I know all of us will be. thinking about it and talking about it. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Um, [applause]. so buy the book Dream State, grab some. friends, head to Starbucks for a matcha.

latte and dive in. And we're so glad. that you were able to join us here at. Starbucks today. Everybody, a big thank. you to our wonderful Starbucks partners. for supporting us. Thank you all for. listening and watching. And we hope. you'll all join our community and become. a part of all of our conversations. Subscribe to the Oprah podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify, on. Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to. your podcast. Bye everybody. Dream. State.

[applause]. Dream State. [applause]. Excellent.