Douglas Stuart: “John of John” | Oprah’s Book Club

Okay. >> This is Oprah. As in Oprah Winfrey. >> [laughter]. >> Aha. >> Is there any other Oprah? >> I'm calling about John of John. John of. John. >> Oh my god. >> I'm calling cuz I want to choose it as a. book club. >> Oh my god, that's amazing. You must have. had some people hang up on you over the. years not believing it was it was really. you. This is a real pinch-me moment. >> I thought this was so interesting in.

[music] light of heated rivalry and all. that's going on with. >> [laughter]. >> If you like heated rivalry, you going to. love this book. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. >> That's all I got to say. This is this is. the deeper end of the ocean of heated. rivalry. Hi everybody. I am so happy to be here. with you on the Oprah podcast cuz today. is my favorite kind of day because I'm. with an AUDIENCE OF READERS. >> [cheering]. [applause].

>> WE ARE ALL READING PEOPLE. And I know. that book clubs are all the rage now. And when I first started doing it, nobody had a book club. And the idea of. doing a book club, certainly publicly, was like, how are you going to get. people to read? And now look, everybody. has a book club. I'm 30 years in and I'm. so excited to share with you my 123rd. Oprah's Book Club selection. >> [applause]. >> 122.

JOHN OF JOHN BY THE extraordinary. novelist Douglas Stuart. You may have. read or heard of his wildly acclaimed. debut novel Shuggie Bain. That was so. good, which won the prestigious Booker. Prize. But I was so immersed in this. book that at times I had to put on a. sweater. >> [laughter]. >> Cuz Scotland gets cold sometimes. And so. we gave our audience an advance copy and. I wanted to know what you thought. Allison?

>> Thank you for having me. Um. thank you for this book. You wrote. with such a thoughtful and delicate hand. that these complex characters truly. became human. I was lucky enough to. spend a year in Scotland and through. reading this book I was transported. back. >> Really? >> So thank you. >> So you knew the terrain? >> Yes, I had been up to the Isle of Skye. and to the Highlands before. >> knew what a croft house was? >> No, I didn't know that, but I had. I had run around and chased sheep around.

the hillsides. >> Okay. All right, Susanna? >> Your characters were so well developed. I got to the end of the book and. honestly I was disappointed to leave. them. I could have easily spent another. 400 pages with John, Cal, Ella and. Ennis. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. So John of John is set in a. small fictional farming and textile. town. Didn't you learn so much about. textiles? Yes. And Douglas is wearing. one of the Scotland textiles. He is.

>> hot for a studio, but yes. >> Okay, so it's set in this town called. Fallabeg where people do these textiles. on an isle off of Scotland where. everybody knows everybody else's. business. It's a story about a father, John, and his son, John Calum, who goes. by Cal, and the secrets they so. desperately are holding on to from each. other, from their neighbors, from their. church. Boy, is this this book has a lot. Everybody has a secret. Uh so we welcome you, Douglas Stuart.

Bravo, bravo, bravo, sir. >> Thank you and thank you for having me. >> Well, you know, I asked an author this. recently and they said I wrote the book. that was inside me to write. So has this. book the words been living inside you, this story? Was it living inside you and. obviously came out in the form of John. of John, but did it come about? >> You know, that's a great question. Yeah, I think it's always been inside me. I. mean, I think in many ways it was. inevitable. >> Mhm. >> Um although I'm not an islander myself,

uh I think. uh I had been drawn to the islands. because I was a young man who had. studied textiles in college and I'd. always really revered this community. that makes this beautiful cloth and and. I had wanted to go. But before I. published my debut novel in 2019, it. takes about 18 months between someone. accepting a book and then it being. published. And I was thinking, what am I. going to write next? What do I want to. work on? And I think I was making my. husband absolutely insane. uh with my anxiety. How will this book.

do? What's going to happen? And so I. said to him, I have to I have to go. I'm. being called to the islands. I have to. go and see what it is. And he said, >> So had Shuggie Bain already come out? >> No, it hadn't. It was still had maybe. about 6 months to to go. And so I was. thinking I was trying to keep myself. busy with my work. >> Because also the pressure once you've. had the success. >> Mhm. >> of a Booker Prize, it puts even more. pressure on you, does it not? >> Yeah, that's. >> next book or do you feel that pressure? >> Oh, you you I mean, I didn't feel the. pressure before the book published, but. certainly afterwards. I mean,

>> Yeah, now you've got to really write. >> Yeah, and in fact, journalists would. say, "Congratulations, and is your next. book going to fail?" You know, it was. sort of always success like failure was. baked into success and you couldn't even. enjoy the moment. So I said to my. husband, I want to go to and explore the. Outer Hebrides, which this beautiful. archipelago off the northwest of. Scotland. I had never been. >> And he was like, But you sound like you. have. >> [laughter]. >> And he said, "Absolutely go." You know, he was delighted to get rid of me. >> So where were you where were you born? Where were you born and raised? >> I was born So Scotland's quite a small.

country, but I was born in Glasgow, which is the big industrial city. Actually the most populous city. So I. was born and raised as an inner-city. kid. And And because I was born, you. know, my family didn't have much money, I never really got to see all the. beautiful wildlife in the Highlands and. the nature that Scotland has. And I. certainly never got to visit her many, many beautiful islands. And I've lived my whole life when as. soon as I open my mouth, someone would. say, "Oh, I've been to the Isle of Skye, or I've been to the Isle of Harris." And. I would say, "Oh, I haven't. I haven't. done that." And so, this also for me was.

about writing myself into my own country. and sort of discovering my own nation in. a way. And so, I went for 12 weeks in. 2019, and it was before I'd published my. debut novel. I knew two people on the. islands. I actually only knew one, and I had been. introduced to another. And you know, everyone was just so warm. and so welcoming with me. >> you stay there? Did you live there? >> I did. I started It's um it's a chain of. islands, and I started at the very. southern tip. And I thought I was going. to write a novel about loneliness, and. then I thought maybe it's about a. prodigal son's return home.

And as I traveled up, all the islands. are very different. They have a very. different character. And when I got. about three-quarters of the way up to uh. the Isle of Harris, I suddenly was on. the east coast of it, and it's a very. lunar landscape. It's very rocky, quite. barren. The houses feel quite lonely on. the landscape. >> Yeah, cuz I think, and you all would. agree, I'm sure, the setting in the book. is a character itself, is it not? Yeah. >> I mean, it's absolutely stunning. The. beaches and the landscape and the houses. are incredible.

But it's also a place where some very. singular things converge. Uh one of them. is the Gaelic language. Another one is a. very devout form of Calvinism. And the. last is Harris Tweed weaving. And as. soon as I got there, I just suddenly. thought, "This is it. This is where the. the book is set.". >> So, you actually saw people doing that. weaving that you describe in the book. >> They do it in their homes or behind. their homes, and I absolutely fell in. love. But I only knew two people, as I. said, and I had to know everything about. learn everything about sheep farming and. about the reproductive cycles and about.

when you can launch a boat and when you. can. So, I would go and I would say, "If. I need to know something," they would. say, "Yeah, yeah, just go and talk to. the person at the far end of the. village. Just go chap the door." And as. As Yorker, I didn't like that as a. strategy. Um but I did and I was admitted and I. came away with over 100 hours of audio. recordings. Just Just people talking to. me. >> And what were they sharing? They were. sharing about what was going on in their. daily lives. If you stayed there a long. period of time, you would have. understood you became to understand. yourself. You know, how isolated or.

removed Uh I know people don't like the. word they use remote, but how isolated. or removed it was and how it did feel. when I was reading that there was a lot. of loneliness there. >> I think my characters experience a lot. of loneliness. You know, there's a. there's a wonderful quote that opens the. the novel and it's by a very famous. Protestant minister and he says, uh you know, islanders the world over. are born for exile. Islands give us such. a privileged childhood, but then when we.

grow up, they give us no place to. express that. Um and I think that was uh you know, a. very sort of powerful feeling that I got. when I was on the islands. Uh they have suffered some massive. depopulation over the last century. They've lost about 40% of their. population and the population often that. is there in the more rural corners uh. can be aging and so. >> cuz the young people want to get out. >> Yeah, they do and so there's there's a. little bit of pre-grief with parents as. well. You know, they understand that if. their children are going to go out into. the world, they have to give them to the.

world and and won't see them as often as. they'd like. >> Yeah. So, without giving the plot away, especially I you know, you're not going. to give the ending away. My producer was. in tears reading it. We all were so. moved by the ending, but you got to get. there. Uh tell us about Johnno John. >> Yeah. It It's set in the late '90s on on. the Isle of Harris, but. >> And you did that on purpose. >> I did that on purpose. I set that before. the internet, um. which will become clear as you read the. book. But it's set in the. >> Cuz if everybody was on their phones,

this would be a very different story. [laughter]. >> Exactly. Exactly. If you could find. someone to date really quickly, it'd be. yeah. Wouldn't even be a short story. Yes. Um. >> No need to knit your penis. >> [laughter]. >> Spoiler alert. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, you could still do. that if it's fun for you, but [laughter]. but yeah. But yeah, and so it's it's a story of a. young man who is on the mainland in an. art school. His name is John Calum. MacLeod. We call him Cal. And in that. wonderful moment of graduation, he is.

down on his luck. He can't find work and. he's having a tough time getting by in. the capital city. And he calls home. every Wednesday and Sunday to worship. with his father back to the Isle of. Harris. And one day his father says to. him, "You have to come home. It's time.". And it's that wonderful moment where a. young man should just be going out into. the world and suddenly he's pulled back. to his home. And so he returns to this. island, which is quite difficult to get. to. It takes a lot of intent. And he's. told his grandmother is very ill and he. must come home and care for her. That. his grandmother is his responsibility.

because it's his father's mother-in-law, not his father's mother. And so he does his duty and he comes. home. And it brings him back into a. world where he has a lot of broken. relationships and unfinished business. But it also brings him back under his. father's roof. And his father is what is. known as a deacon or a precentor in the. local church, meaning he sets the hymn. and the the congregation sings it back. to him. And he believes very deeply in. scripture. He does not negotiate with it and he has. very sort of strict rules. for the house. And so Cal comes home. He.

finds, I don't think it's a spoiler, he. finds almost instantly that his. grandmother is in great health. >> Yeah. >> And and so she's the same and as she. ever was. >> And so he's been falsely lured back. home. >> For some reason that we will discover, yes. >> And Cal is coming home with a secret. >> That's right, yeah. >> And he goes home [clears throat] and his. dad also has a secret. >> That's right, yes. >> We're not telling the secrets. >> We can tell the the secrets, I think. >> Okay. Because it's really early on that. you find out. And I thought this was so interesting in. in light of heated rivalry and all.

that's going on with. >> [laughter]. >> If you like heated rivalry, you going to. love this book. >> All right. That's all I got to say. This is this is. the deeper end of the ocean of heated. rivalry. And so, Cal is gay. and holding the shame of that for. himself because he knows he's not going. to be received in that community. >> That's right. >> And his father, the deacon, is gay. >> That's right. >> Yes. That But you find that like 20. pages in and that's where it's.

happening. He's coming home to that. >> Yeah. >> And and then all that happens with that. >> That's right. And and strangely enough, I thought it was really just the story. of a gay son returning to the islands. And when I was meeting with islanders, I. would go from settlement to settlement. and in every sort of little village, I. would hear the history of who lived. there and there would be some spinsters. or there would be some bachelors, some. unmarried older people and I would ask, you know, oh, sort of what happened? And. the conversation often was that person. missed their moment for love, you know, they they just didn't find somebody to.

love, they missed their moment. Sometimes the story would be, oh, he. looked after his mother and father into. old age and or. you know, he really didn't want to be. bothered with the opposite sex. And I. was listening to this for like a couple. of weeks and then I would say I said. very casually, well, of course, some of. them must also be gay. And the woman. that I said it to said, oh, no, oh, no, no, no. And she didn't say it with any. cruelty or or mal-intent, but because. faith was very important, they couldn't. believe that and I and I knew just. instinctively in my heart that some of.

these men and women, these older men and. women would have would have been gay and. just had never. >> have a whole town. >> No. >> and not have anybody. >> That's exactly so, yeah, yeah. >> You just can't. >> You just cannot and that's when the book. for me became much more interesting. I. realized it wasn't really about the son, but it is also about his father and what. we inherit from our parents. >> Okay. So, that's when you decided to. allow him to be gay and also the father. who is the deacon is holding this. this secret. Now, what is interesting to. me is I started out reading it and I.

didn't know that I was reading a love. story, but it becomes very evident that. it's a love story. It's a love story in. ways that we did not expect. Did you. know that yourself that it was going to. be a love story? >> Yeah, I I do. I think in all my novels, no matter what I throw at my characters, I'm always testing the strength of the. love whether it's between a mother and. son or two teenage boys or or in this. case between um you know, a grandson and.

grandmother and a son and a father. And. also the patience of love for some other. other characters, but yeah, I always. knew it was going to be a love story. I. I didn't have a father myself. My father. abandoned my mother and I when I was. about 4 years old. And so I've always grown up thinking. what must it be to have a father's love. and what would that have been and what. would have meant for me as a young gay. man as well who had the father that I. did have. um you know, who was really a product of. the patriarchy and and I always sort of. spent time imagining that and in a way.

I wrote John of John to sort of breathe. life into that idea and to imagine these. two. on this island. But, you know, of the. title the the important word on the. title is the of um because it is about. how fathers possess sons and how they. and often seek to control them. When. you're when you're on the island um. you know, names are very common. Family. names repeat. There's a lot of. McDonald's and McClouds and McNeils and. then you're often named after your. father and mother. And so the very first.

question someone might ask you is, you. know, who are you? But then the very. next question needs to be and who do you. belong to? And and that sense of who do you belong. to was something that can carry an awful. lot of weight through your whole entire. life because you've also got to show up. uh and represent yourself in a good. light, but also all the generations. going back uh because everybody. remembers who you're from. >> Yes, and that's the pressure that Cal. feels coming home that he that you're. not allowed to be yourself. And that's.

also why I'm sure so many people leave. the island for the desire to fulfill. who you were meant to be and not to be. somebody else's idea of who you are. >> That's right. That's right. Yeah, and. and also for a for a 22-year-old man to. come back, the island does have a very. busy city or a very busy town of about. 8,000 people. But they live it's quite a. big island and they live in a very rural. part of it. And for 20 for a 22-year-old. man to return home at that time, you. know, he says a couple of chapters in he.

meets another character who says you're. the first person I've seen under 30. Um and he's been there a while and and. so there is also a little bit of a. a social and a romantic struggle even. for straight people on the island to. find the person that they will fall in. love with and almost impossible in that. time for a gay character. >> Okay, so a thread throughout the story. is the struggle between faith and. desire. What did What What did you find. in that struggle? Faith and desire. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's an eternal.

struggle, isn't it? And I don't know. that I could necessarily come to a place. um where I could resolve it because I. think it'll go on long beyond this. novel. You know, it is a community that. believes very deeply in God and when. you're on the landscape and you see the. wind and the weather and the sea, you. can understand that God is here. We're. very close to it. Unlike we often are in. cities. But it is also a very. conservative church and it does as I. said believes very deeply in scripture. and does not negotiate with it. And so. to be gay or to be outside of any.

relationship that is not one man and one. woman is just not something that really. can exist. And yet, you have these two men and. probably other people in rural. situations like that that that have this. is how they were born this is how they. were made. And so the struggle becomes. not only. um sort of with the community, but it. also becomes inside self. Uh you know, it's about how can you both love God and. love yourself and love who you love, and. how can you reconcile those things at. the same time? >> I love it on page 23 where you describe.

the conflicting relationship between. father and son. You say, "Although he. never said it out loud, John felt that. Cal thought their lives were lacking. as if the things that had sustained him. as a boy bored him now. Cal's gaze. tainted the things that John had always. loved and made him feel like he should. apologize for the life he had built.". And you later write, "John thought about. the life that he had tied himself to so. that Cal had something to tie himself.

to. And now that Cal didn't want it, he. realized that he hadn't wanted it. either.". >> Yeah. Yeah, I have I think I have a lot of. empathy for parents, I think. I think. often they build lives and perhaps there. comes a moment where you realize your. children don't want that life or they. don't want to continue that life for. you. And especially on the islands where, you. know, the crofting or the farming is. about subsistence. It's not for profit, it's about maintaining and remaining and.

and living there. So, if your child then doesn't want this. thing that you've sort of held onto the. house and the land all this time, you. have to question, did you also want it? Um and and John hasn't been able to be. the man he wanted to be because he was. the upstanding deacon in this In this. settlement there's only 26 people, Oprah. You know, it's not It's It's It's. very depopulated at this point. And so, he he feels like he owes not only his. existence there to his son and also to. his mother-in-law to to keep her alive.

and well, but also to the people around. him. You know, you cannot At a certain. point you cannot leave because the. community needs you. >> So, this this struck me. This is early. on. This is just on page two, y'all. You. You write about John and Cal and you. say, "Their conversation was always. censored, missing the things they. couldn't talk about." And what's. fascinating to me about that and struck. me is that I think a lot of people. are in relationships. having conversations. that are censored missing the things.

that you really can't talk about. And it. felt like that wasn't just John and Cal. It felt to me like that's the whole. community. Everybody's just having. conversations but really missing the. things that come from feeling and and. that you need to talk about. >> That's right. I think we're always all. managing reputation no matter who we are. and where we are. >> First of all, let's just talk about that. sentence. That is a beautiful sentence. >> you. Thank you. >> And so, you're just writing along.

>> [laughter]. >> and that just sentence just comes to. you? >> Yeah, I I I sort of do a little more. crying and sort of struggling [laughter]. than just writing along. But yeah, I. mean, I have a love of language and. um it's very much in Scottish people, I. think. We love a good story, so. >> So, but when you finish that sentence, you say, "Ha, that's a good one.". >> [laughter]. >> No, you tend to think, "Oh, that's terrible." And you know, "Will I. ever survive?". >> Really? >> Yeah, yeah. I'm very hard on myself.

>> what's your writing style? Do you get up. and write every morning? Are you on a. computer? Are you, you know? >> I'm very slow. The first draft tends to. be very quick and then I'm meeting. people as the reader meets people. And. the reason why I write, I think, is also. to understand the things that bother me. that I can't quite locate. >> You're meeting people as a reader meets. as we. >> As Yes, yeah, they're also coming to me. or they're coming from inside me. But I. also know in my first draft that I I. meet Ella and I meet Cal and I say, "Who. are you?" And and what are what are you. going to be? What do you have to tell. me? >> And so, does that come through your.

fingers or they're talking in your head? How does that show up? >> Uh it it it comes through my head. I. mumble. I talk all the time. I write in. a one-bedroom apartment in the East. Village, and I have a pair of. noise-canceling headphones, and my. husband just goes about his business. around me. >> Yeah. >> all the all the time, and. >> Yeah. >> But, yeah, I I meet the characters on. the first draft, and then I find it what. it is that bothers them, and and I. >> fascinates me with So, they just sort of. like come in, and they say, "Hi, I'm. Ella.". >> Yeah. Yeah, they do. I have a vague outline of.

who they might be, but if you try to. impose too much of that on them, they. can resist it, and they can push back. And I think because so many of them come. from a place where they're trying to. help me work out my own problems and. things that sort of malformed me in my. childhood, I am sort of drawing them. from a very deep place, and. >> So, in this book, you 26 characters, they just kept coming and coming. >> Yes. [laughter]. It's a noisy head. What can I tell you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Did you finally say, "Is that Is there. everybody?". >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> I had to limit 26. So, I was like,

"Thank goodness for depopulation." Yeah. >> So, John is a man of God as as we read. in John of John. He has deep struggles. between faith and desire, and this is. what Cal says about his father on page. 279. Oh, I love this so much. I didn't leave. him. I left home. I didn't leave him. I left home, and he. left me first. He looked at me, and he. looked at Jesus, and he chose Jesus.

He stepped beyond that white cloth to be. saved and left me on the other side. I. was 9 years old. So, I'm chained to his. side in this life, but to hell with me. in the next. What did you learn and experience. yourself about the church in Scotland? Yeah, I think I went to the islands with. a lot of misconceptions and preconceived. notions. I've always felt. a sort of looked down upon, I think, of. people of faith because I was a young.

gay man, and it was often used as the. justification for people to be cruel to. me. >> Mhm. >> You know how God felt about me. Um and they felt very sort of righteous. in that often. And so I went actually a. little afraid uh this being the most. conservative part of Scotland. And I got there and I was so overwhelmed. with the softness and the gentleness of. the people with just how generous they. were with me and with their neighbors. and. um and how interdependent they were in. order to sort of get by and to survive. But the faith they believe in their own.

path to God is quite a hard path, you. know, we're born in sin. Uh we are going. for damnation and uh God will save only. a few and there's uh we can give. ourselves to Jesus, but there's not much. else uh we can do to. >> And no radio on Sunday and no. >> Yeah, no. I mean they are very I mean. it's a hard um agricultural life. And so. the Sabbath comes. um as a very welcome relief at the end. of the week where everyone can rest, but. it is intended that you give your your. whole day to God. No labor, there is no.

uh joining together unless it is for. worship or or to go to church. And even. though not everyone is a part of the. church on the islands, the church still. has the dominating influence in that. region. And and to be there also on a. Sunday as a city dweller, I was like we. might need this. You know, we might need. a chance to stop and to think and to. reflect uh for whatever it is we do, but. it's it is a very sort of um. dominating experience. >> what it felt like to me in reading it?

>> It feels. um and I I was brought up, you know, strict Baptist and it's so interesting. because at one point, you know, you're. not supposed to wear pants on a Sunday, you're not supposed to wear jewelry, you're not supposed to do and you know, uh. it just seems so crazy to me. You could. go in the water, but you couldn't. splash, you know, so it was like take. away all the joy and that's what it felt. like in this community that religion was. joyless. >> Mhm.

>> I think I think it's the religion is. hard. The road to belief there is very. very hard. But the community itself has. a lot of joy because of. because it is very sort of soft and. gentle like I said. And people are very. measured with their words because words. live a long time on the islands. Um and so it was that sort of tension. between both of them that just. really sort of inspired me and and. scratched my imagination. >> Okay, so. maybe you've heard of this story that. last year in the New York Times opinion. piece, Timothy White wrote an article.

titled how my dad reconciled his God and. his gay son. His father is an. evangelical pastor who eventually came. to terms with Timothy's sexuality. And. Timothy and his father Bill are here and. they both read John of John. Yeah, and. what did you think? >> Oh, wow. I. >> Well, first of all, wow for that. article. Wow for that article. Yes. >> I mean, I think for me it was. uh heartbreaking. honestly to see myself in it as much as.

I did. I mean, we have a different. Timothy and I have a very different. relationship than John and Cal. >> Thank goodness. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, we would not be sitting here. >> Well, tell us first a little bit, summarize what you said in the the. opinion piece in the New York Times. Yes. >> Yeah, so I I wrote about what it was. like to uh grow up as. uh someone who had a father that loved. him very dearly and placed a lot of. expectations about what it would mean. when I was an adult, the wife I would. marry. I wrote about how in the the. doorway every night when I went to bed.

my dad would say prayers over me. One of. those prayers was for my future wife. every night. And so then when I uh when. I came out and in the lead up to me. coming out, um my dad and I were very. close. Um he was going through this. internal theological struggle this whole. time about what it was like to try to. reconcile his deeply held evangelical. faith, faith that I was raised in. believed as as with my burgeoning. sexuality. >> And I read that Bill, in your journal. you wrote, "I think deep down I hate. homosexuality. I hate it more than just. about anything in the world." That's.

what you had written, right? >> Yes, that's in my journals. >> And after more than two decades, you now. say having a gay son is one of the best. things that's ever happened to you. >> It is, so it is, so. >> [applause]. >> Have been redeemed. What happened here? >> Well, I mean, it's a. I mean, speaking as someone who's, you. know, I love Jesus. I think Jesus is the. best. I still do. It's hard to change. It's hard to change. deeply ingrained. religious beliefs.

>> Yeah. >> And so for me, my brother came out as. gay in 1990. So, I'm reading this book. and it's. you know, that's the same era. And I I. sent my brother a book called Coming Out. of Homosexuality, like how to be. straight. Right, I mean, this is I prayed with, you know, I've been. >> When your brother came out, >> [clears throat]. >> what was your reaction to your brother. coming out in 1990? >> Well, fortunately, I said, "I love you.". Unfortunately, I said, "But.".

"I love you, but I'm not so sure what I. think about you being gay." Because at. that point I thought it was just an. abomination. Cuz I didn't literally know. any gay people. I mean, it just was not. part of the conservative evangelical. world that I lived in. So, I had to go. on this journey. >> So, that was really brave of your. brother to come to you, evangelical. pastor, and do that. >> He pastored me through my journey. Even. though he would say he's not religious, he literally walked with such humility.

and grace. >> Okay. >> For decades. >> Okay. So, when you wrote that in your. journal all those years ago, "I hate. homosexuality. I hate it more than just. about anything in the world." What were. you going through and why were you. writing that? >> Well, I was praying for people who are. gay to be straight. >> And you thought you could pray them. straight? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And that didn't work so well. >> Yeah, well, it. >> So, >> [laughter]. >> I mean, no surprise to you, but it was.

to me. And so, for me, it caused me to. doubt God. Like, God, you you said that I'm. supposed to do this and make them. straight, but you're not coming through. And so, for me, it almost. >> they didn't turn straight, you then. started to question God. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> And so, [clears throat] I knew Timothy. was gay. probably a year before he came out. >> Yeah. >> And so, that's when I wrote that. I'm. like, this cannot be. >> That now my son is gay, my brother was. gay, and I heard that you went to the. beach and you were throwing things and. yelling at God. >> I mean, I was saying things that we.

cannot say on Oprah. >> Okay. >> [laughter]. >> And I was crying and yelling and. throwing sand and stones out at the And. I was like, God, why? >> So, what happened? So, what happened. to change you? >> It's slow. Change is slow. But I think my therapist and I were. talking about it. a couple weeks ago that it's this. combination of pain and love that. motivates change. And I did not want to. lose my beloved boy.

And that's what it happened. >> No, I didn't. No. >> Yeah. >> I thought I was going to because that's. what had happened with everyone else I. loved who was gay. >> Okay. So, you saw yourself in the. character John here. >> I did. He was so rigid. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I know he loved Cal, but he was. so rigid and so shame-based. There was so much self-loathing. that the wrestling match and and you had. that great line, you know, the wrestling. match wasn't with another It was with. myself.

>> That's right. >> And with with the God that I thought was. the real God. And Jesus. ends up being a lot better than I. thought he was. >> [laughter]. >> I love that. >> [applause]. >> And you say that because Jesus allowed. you to be accepting and loving of your. son just the way he was born to be. >> I I think so. I mean, that yes, because.

Jesus was that kind of loving with. others and Jesus was like, "Hey, come. on. Come over to my side.". >> Yes. >> It's It's It's okay. You can love him. You can You can really love him. God was. not mad at me for being mad at God. Right? So, I I was learning how to. express all that. >> lot going on. >> Yeah. [laughter]. Pretty true. >> Yeah, pretty true. So, reading this book. did what for you, Timothy? How did How. did the book impact you? >> Uh. I found the whole experience profoundly. frustrating, I would say. Um in a in a.

uh way where I was just like, "Oh, you. both have the same secret for the whole. time. Like, someone say something." Like. >> Yeah. >> It felt like a like Chekhov's gun, where. if you see a gun at the beginning of the. play, it has to go off by the end of the. play. And I was like waiting and waiting. and waiting for that gun to go off. And. I think what it did for me, there was a. line near the end where. Cal and John are talking and Cal is. saying in narration, thinking, like, "If. you would only apologize just once. If. you would just say that he was wrong one. time, like, we could [clears throat] we.

could make something of this.". >> Um And so, what it brought up for me is. just my profound gratitude that I got to. experience something that very few. children very few gay children uh get to. experience, which is their parent. changing. And largely changing out of a. reaction of love for them. Um and so, yeah, I was grateful. >> Yeah, that's wonderful. And I think you. change because you change because of. your love for your son. It was so. important for you to to reconcile. That. That's why you changed. >> And that day I mean, that day at the at.

the beach, I. I mean, I just told God, I said, "Look, I'm done. This is it. I I'm going to die. on this hill. You're not going to let my. son. drift off and not let us part. >> So, did it come to you in a in a feeling. of release or relief? >> No, of intense anger. >> No, but I mean, when you finally were. able to reconcile that I can love my son. the way Jesus wants me to love my son. >> Boy, just a long slow journey. Yeah, a long slow journey.

>> Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for. being here to share it. Bill and. Timothy. So, Kenny is a former. professional baseball player and I heard. the book made you feel seen. How so? >> It did make me feel seen. First, I just. have to say that there's something. profoundly. healing in. reading your words and affecting the. chapters of my life through your words, through your lens. So, thank you for. this book. It was really splendid. >> Thank you. >> Um. you know, uh. I I really enjoyed how the characters uh.

were portrayed through the the. relationships and dynamics through. different perspectives. Um and the one that really struck a. chord with me was the relationship. between John and Cal, the strained. father-son relationship with this uh. dual secret. Um I've known that I'm gay. since I was 7 years old and I uh came. out when I was 21 and I couldn't take it. anymore. It was just eating me from the. inside. My father was outed not as being.

gay, but as having a second family. >> Mhm. >> Um and so, you know, it really. illustrated like, "Wow, so if I just. kept my secret for a very long time, it. would have exploded into this big. thing.". >> Mhm. >> Um so, I you know, felt this catharsis in seeing the other. perspective and really empathized with. the pain that he must have been going. through. >> Mhm. >> And you know, throughout this all, uh it. it brought up the question of of your.

intention and your hope for writing in. this way. Like, you know, for me. I grew up in a patriarchal society. Like, it turns out we all did. Like, >> [laughter]. >> um. you know, I'm I'm trying to make sense. of what it means to be a good man in a. world that says that the kind of man. that I am is never quite good enough. >> Mhm. >> Um and so, you know, was it your hope. and your intention to connect with. readers like me? And like what I just. want to know a little bit more about.

that. >> Yeah. That's a Thank you so much all of. you for your stories. Yeah, I think. often I feel that I come from a. generation of gay men were that sort of. been left behind by progress a little. bit. I feel like because I write about. life before the new. century that um. we don't often like to talk about what. oppression was like and what uh. violence and homophobia was like. And. now that things are getting better, not. for everybody, but. um they're improving all the time. I.

feel like the sometimes the. the desire is to move towards the joy. and the inclusion very quickly. And I. want to just keep taking us back and. saying, "Actually, the the queer. experience is universal. And we often. all felt very unloved and unseen and and. very hidden as children and as young. people. And I you know, I think it's. also certainly for me I I'm not sure. about yourself, but certainly for me as. a working-class kid, I feel like even. literature and television doesn't talk.

about class as it intersects with. queerness in many ways. It It sort of. tends to focus on a slightly more. privileged life. And the consequences. change in every sort of part of class. And so, a lot of my work is to say, "Well, look, it's very, very different. if you don't have the options to move. and to be different places and you're. not exposed to as many things as other. people can be." And so, I hope just by. sort of telling that story that people. can relate to it through their own. experience. You know, I I don't know. quite how else to reach people, but if I. can just tell it with detail and with.

heart and with dignity, then I feel like. people can see their own struggle in it. >> Yeah. Cuz you're not setting out to I. want to reach Kenny. >> Yeah. >> You're setting out to tell a story. that's inside your. >> Yeah. That's right. That's right. >> And your goal is to tell that story as. fully and as honestly as possible. That's why you're talking to all of. those people in the community and doing. all that research and sitting with them. And if that story is a fully realized. and developed story, then people like. Kenny will see themselves in the story.

>> That's right. That's right. Yeah. And. also, it's part of the joy of being a. writer. I mean, we set things in very. specific places, but human experience is. universal and it's wonderful to meet you. and wonderful to meet people all over. around the world who who see themselves. in my characters and the experience. >> All right. So, you have a question. It's. Breanna, right? >> Yes, it's Breanna. >> Okay. >> It's great to read the book and it was. super captivating, but the the theme. throughout it was lacking hope, I would. say. And there's a there's a lot of. sadness throughout the story. So, I was.

curious what were you hoping the reader. would feel, especially by the end. without giving it away? >> Can we talk about men a minute for. [laughter] a second? You know, I was. raised with men who did really hard jobs. and dangerous jobs that could have. killed them and. at any time, you know, shipbuilders and. coal miners and and also people that. went out into boats and and uh fished. very rough seas. And I found often that. one of the ways that they coped with. that was by not being very expressive.

But, I've spent a lot of my life as a. writer thinking about the sadness that. men must also carry and how they have no. outlet for it often. Often, they. couldn't say that they were scared or. they felt undervalued or this was. dangerous work because so many people. were relying on them for it. >> Mhm. >> And so, the novel starts really in that. place where John is doing this thing. that his son does not want his. inheritance, but he has to keep doing it. because because he is there and so I'm. very interested in. >> know what to do without it. He wouldn't. know what to do. Who is he without it?

>> Yeah, and his life has amounted to. something that turns out none of the. generations around him want, but in that. is a sadness, a particular male sadness. that that sort of fascinates me. And so. I think I'm just trying to excavate that. and to give the sort of the. working-class male in this fiction a. voice that that says, you know, that. they also carry these very deep um. melancholy emotions in that way. I think. there is hope, but I think that hope. comes slowly. Um one of the things that. was interesting about this book from my.

others is I had to submit to the rhythms. of the island. I had to, you know, things don't happen quickly or. explosively. It's a It's a place where. time is measured very differently. And. so I had to build it very slowly so that. the profits of 50 years of keeping. secrets are revealed towards the end of. the novel and and in that revealing is. the hope that things will will heal and. get better. I hope. >> So does that satisfy you? >> Yes, I think the ending is going to. surprise a lot of people. >> Ending is going to surprise a lot of. people, which we're not telling you.

>> [laughter]. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk about the. brothers, Innis and Sorley, who live in. the same home and they literally aren't. speaking to each other. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Yeah, well, you know, on the islands and. >> They have brought no contact to a. different level. >> They have brought no contact. For 16. years they've lived in a small farmhouse. and they have they are entirely ignoring. each other. to the point where if anyone has a. conversation with them, they have to ask. one brother the the question and then.

turn and ask the same question. >> How's your father? >> Yeah, how's your father? How is your. father? >> Uh-huh. >> And really what sort of that stems from. is when you have children in a sort of. rural life, there is the agreement that. one of the children would have to take. care of the parents, take care of the. house, would inherit this thing here, but the other children get to do almost. anything they want. They can go into. education, they can go see the world. And Sorley has broken that agreement. with his brother. His brother Innes has. dedicated his whole life to looking. after his father, and then Sorley went. to university, saw the world, and then.

returned anyway, which which just breaks. a tacit agreement between them. But I. wanted to create these men where because. someone had really sort of not only. stolen from one brother's life, but then. ruined the opportunity he might have. had, which might have involved love with. another character. We won't spoil it. That how do you cope with that? How do. you live in a house with someone? So. much of the novel is about families. being quite claustrophobically. bound together. through eating and worship and working.

and then living in this house. And how. well could I write these families where. they think they know everything about. each other, but actually they don't know. each other. almost at all. >> In the end, writing a book, when you. finish, I know as I we were just saying. with Kenny, you're not writing the story. because you want people to you're trying. to reach a certain person. But in the. end, do you as the the creator of this. this beautiful story, do you have a.

feeling about what you wanted to do and. say in the world? >> Yes, and in fact, I wrote the ending of. the novel many times. I kept pulling the. novel back to the halfway point and a. character would do something different. and then I would get the final thing, but I knew by the end of the book that I. was trying to. show that. it's often the arrogance of youth if we. are the youngest generation in a family. that we think we're the only ones with. secrets and hidden lives. And you know, that we're disappointed in how things. turned out and we don't often afford.

enough empathy to our parents and our. grandparents to also wonder, are you. living the life you wanted to live? Are. you the person you wanted to be? And so. by the end of the novel, that was the. question I wanted to answer. You know, it's not just centered on us as the. children, but it is about the generation. that go before us and can we really. heal? Can we move on? Can we have a. happy life ourselves if our parents and. grandparents are not having that for. themselves? >> Got it. That makes sense, doesn't it? Yes, sir. >> Uh I came of age and came out of the.

closet right about the same time um as. this story takes place and what really. struck me was not just the sense of. carrying your secret, but this strong sense of needing to. worry about what everyone else thinks. about you. >> Yeah. >> I was forced by my father to cut my hair. >> Mhm. >> uh around this time and I remember. asking him almost the same thing Cal. asked Shawn in the book, "Why does it. matter so much what other people think?".

And my father was just incredulous at at. the question. >> Mhm. >> Like of of of course, you know, you. should carry yourself through your life. thinking about what everyone else is. going to think about you. And even after. I came out, he had said to me, "I don't. think I can live knowing that other. people know that I have a gay son.". >> Ah. >> It was so much about, you know, what. people would think of him. >> Yeah. >> in relation to me. And I just wondered. if if if this was something you found. when you were, you know, on the islands.

I know there's a lot of when you're in. small towns, everyone's gossiping about. everyone else and so you're more you're. more worried about that. >> Yeah. >> Um but I was just curious about your. your experience with that. >> Yeah, I think it comes back to the of of. the title again for me. It's and. masculinity in a slightly broader sense. I was I think a lot about how fathers. often want their sons to be made in. their images. And in terms of the novel, you know, that's a very dangerous thing. when the father hates his own image um. and how sort of. >> Well, >> you know, that's that's where the.

problem really stems from. But fathers. often want that for their sons because. they understand how the patriarchy works. and how narrow masculinity often has to. be um expressed in the world. And so, while they're doing that to their sons, they're also upholding something that. they should probably dismantle in that. way, if that if that makes sense, but. >> Oh, I hadn't even thought of it that way. before. >> Yeah, I mean, it's it's a sort of. self-fulfilling trap in a way, you know, when your father says you have to be. tough and strong and short hair and. brave and all this and not allowing you. to be whatever it is you might naturally.

be. >> is looking at the image of himself and. not liking and hating that image and. therefore hating himself. >> it for Cal, yeah. >> Doesn't want for Doesn't want it for. Cal. >> and he he sees it. I mean, I think. fathers and sons, even if they try to. ignore each other, they they see parents. see what is happening inside their. children on some level. And I think. that's why he doesn't want to sort of. talk about it. >> was gay a year before he came out, yes. >> right, yeah. But, um you know, what I'm. sure it's your experience, but one of. the things about growing up gay is you. become an you're an absolute fiction to.

everybody around you until you can claim. yourself. You spend all of your your. formative years not being yourself, but. actually looking at how someone else. looks at you always and then trying to. hide the part of you that you know might. bring you shame or judgment. >> That's so interesting. >> And so, you are. >> from a writer's point of view. You're an. absolute fiction. >> You're an absolute fiction. All young. queer people to of a certain generation. and before are an absolute fiction if. they don't feel like they can be. themselves even with their parents.

And so, much of the work that we do as. adults is trying to figure out who we. actually are and who we should have been. the whole time. But, it's not just about. I mean, you're too young to have sexual. desire at that age, but it's even just. about very simple things. I like playing. with a skipping rope or a doll or, you. know, I like this pop star or or that. And you're forever not really inside. your own experience. You're always. looking at how other people are seeing. you and what they can catch you in. And. so, that's. >> on the fictional story. >> That's right. >> until you can actually come out and be. your authentic self.

>> Or go to the mainland to art school and. then go Yeah, right before your. grandmother decides she wants to see you. again. Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. The end of the novel made a. lot of people weep. Did it not make you. teary? Yeah. The book was just a magnificent. reading experience that we thank you. for. And I have to say for all of us who. completed it, it's like you dug into. what love can do. for those living in a hostile and a. judgmental world. Did you not think.

that, Kenny? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I think many people are going. to be thanking you for that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Douglas Stuart. >> Thank you very much. >> Shuggie Bain. >> [applause]. >> My 1 of 23rd Oprah's Book Club selection. is now available wherever you buy your. books. Thank you to this insightful. reading audience. Thank you for your. thoughtful observations about the book. We appreciate you and we'll see you next. time. Go well, everybody. Go well. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.