Domestic Violence Crisis Now Impacts 1 in 2 Women, with Oprah and author Rachel Louise Snyder

One in two women in the United [music]. States will experience sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an. intimate partner in their lifetimes. [music]. Research shows that the most dangerous. place for a woman is right inside her. own home. I had a conversation with this woman, Susan, who was a mother of three who had. endured 17 years of physical and. emotional abuse by her husband. We all. have asked this question over the years, "Why do you stay? Why do you stay?" And.

you say we should be asking the. question, "Why is he violent?". Hi, and welcome to the Oprah podcast. You know, over the years, uh I've been talking about domestic. violence for women. We did more than 120. Oprah shows on domestic violence. I. first started talking about it in 1986. Uh that's when the year that the show. was launched. And back then, the stat in.

1986 were one out of four women were. impacted by some form of domestic. violence. And now, 2026, after all of that talking and all of. those years and all that we know and. women's self-awakening and. self-empowerment, things have not gotten. better. They've actually gotten worse. The current stats are one in two. One in two women in the United States. will experience sexual violence,

physical violence, or stalking by an. intimate partner in their lifetime. That. means if you're listening and you're not. one, you know somebody who is or will. be. This is so hard to believe and so. unacceptable for us as a civil society. and tough to hear. Uh research shows that the most. dangerous place for a woman is right. inside her own home. And that the. leading cause of death for women during.

pregnancy or postpartum is homicide. Pretty shocking, right? So, to. understand the scope and impact of these. terrible statistics, I am joined by the. author of the award-winning and. best-selling book, No Visible Bruises: What We Don't Know About Domestic. Violence. Can Kill Us. Journalist Rachel Louise. Snyder, welcome Rachel. Thank you for. being here with me. >> Thank you for having me. >> Well, what is the significance, Rachel, of. the the title, No Visible Bruises? I.

love that title. >> I think that we really all of the. systems that we have created prioritize. physical violence. We in particular. prioritize marks that we can see. >> Mhm. >> But, a lot of domestic violence is uh. psychological, emotional, coercion. You. mentioned stalking in your opening. Uh. things like financial control. All of. these are forms of domestic violence.

>> Financial control. >> Absolutely, financial control. >> I That's a new one, because I think a. lot of women do not think that their. husband having control over the finances. and belittling them for spending, or you. know, it's one thing to say, "We you. know, we have a family budget." But, I. hear that we women, young women, are. being belittled for their spending, or. wanting to spend time with their. friends. >> Yeah. >> So, but but that is also a form of. abuse. >> Absolutely, it is. So, all of these.

don't require physical They don't. require a punch or a kick or any kind of. bruise at all. >> That's why it's no visible bruises. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think it's so amazing, as you're. saying this, I know that there's. somebody's listening. who. is just under. the the the belief or feeling that it's. not so bad. I mean, you don't have. physical freedom. There's a a whole.

bunch of activity that happens around. domestic violence that we don't really. know how to. um calculate. And those are things like. um. "I don't want you to have friends over. because your friends don't like me." Or. "I don't want to go to your family's. home because your family doesn't like. me." Which by the way may be true. >> Yeah. >> Right. The family may not like him. because he's abusing her. >> Or they sense that something's off. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, "I see the way.

men uh on the street look at you when. you wear those mini skirts. So, I don't. think you should wear those mini. skirts." There's all these kind of. small slights and small degradations. that happen. uh before anybody is ever kicked or. punched. >> the many many many many years and times. that I was doing shows talking about. this, I think in the beginning a lot of. women see it as flattery. Oh, he loves. me. He doesn't want me to you know, he's.

jealous of me. And they are flattered by. that. >> Absolutely. >> it just increases. >> Totally. >> And so so so my thing is and and you. know this too because you have you know, spent eight years interviewing victims. and law enforcement and abusers. themselves that the moment it starts, that's when you should put it in check. >> Oh, yeah. I tell my daughter, "If a guy. shows up on the lawn with an orchestra. or a boombox and he's playing, that's. not romantic. That's stalking.". >> Yeah. >> Go [laughter] away, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, as I said, you spent all. this time interviewing victims and law. enforcement and abusers themselves. And. you say I I this this is I If you get. nothing else from this today, I hope we. can make the shift in our culture. You. say the term domestic violence, which. I've used over the years, everybody. uses, does not accurately describe what. happens to women. What does? What is the term we should be. using? >> Terrorism. I call it terrorism. >> Mhm. >> Uh sometimes I call it intimate.

terrorism. >> Intimate partner terrorism. >> Yeah, I don't call it that because it's. not always from the partner. Right? Um it could be uh from a brother. It could be from uh a parent. There's. all kinds of. uh abuse that goes on behind closed. doors that isn't always just from the. partner. A child can be abusive to you. know, a parent. So, the key is the word. terrorism. If you think about um.

someone who you think about walking on. eggshells. As a writer, I hate cliches, but I but it's a useful one. Yes. Um. you walk on eggshells. You want to make. sure that dinner is on the table at. 6:00. You want to make sure that the. kids aren't being loud. You want to make. sure that that everything is in place so. that you can ward off whatever violence. >> And you you're walking on eggshells and. you don't know which one is going to. slightly crack that day and send. >> Totally. >> the person off on a tangent that you.

couldn't even imagine. >> Yeah, absolutely it's absolutely. unpredictable. And And that's part of. the point is that unpredictability is. that um I I am the one in control. And I am the one who says you do this or. you don't do this. >> surprised as I was surprised when I read. your book? I was surprised that I've. been talking about it all these years. and there've been multiple articles. about it and people have talked about it. and movies about it. And that the stats. were one out of four in the '80s and now.

they're one out of two now. Are you surprised that we've gone. backwards? >> I'm I'm not surprised by that and I'll. tell you why. >> we know, with all the with all of our. self-empowerment and all that we know? >> I. >> I know. There's There's this woman in my. book says, "We're leaping backwards at. an obscene pace." It's such a telling. line. I mean, there is a positive way to look at it. actually if we just like inflict a tiny. bit of hope, which is that I think there. are more resources known now. Certainly. in 1986, there was no national domestic.

violence hotline. So, there's more. reporting of it now, but I'm. I'm also not surprised because there. there is a backlash going on right now, and I think. I I I guess I just uh. I sort of expected it. >> Yeah. So, you say for most of human history, I. was surprised by this, too. I I I knew. it, but it I hadn't absorbed it that for. most of human history, society didn't. even recognize domes- domestic violence. as being wrong. I mean, that.

Yeah, and still in the other parts of. the world, it's perfectly legal to beat. your wife, beat your spouse. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and in fact, it's a it's a sign of. your status in your in your social. circle like that you control. Yeah, I. mean, I when I when I when I wrote this. book, part of why I wrote it was that I. misunderstood so much about domestic. violence myself. First of all, I never. thought about it. >> Right. >> Right. Um. >> It's not something you think about. unless you're in it.

>> Well, >> Or know somebody who's in it. >> I my father was abusive to me growing. up, and I didn't term that abuse. I. didn't know that that was abuse. And in some ways, the best thing he did. was kick me out of the house when I was. 16 because I suddenly was able to see. that what was going on in my house was. not normal. When I was first introduced. to domestic violence, I had been a. journalist traveling the world. I did. all kinds of human rights abuses. stories. Gang rapes and, you know, child.

marriages, and domestic violence sat at. the core of all of those stories, but I was like, "But that's not my story. My story is. about gang rape." I mean, I I had. blinders. I, with all the privilege, I. mean, okay, getting kicked out wasn't a. privilege, but later in my life I had, you know, education, I was able to. access education and I make a living and. all that stuff. And I thought, "Oh, but I. but I'm not doing a story on domestic. violence. I'm doing a story on on, you.

know, >> I think the word domestic violence also. just marginalizes the experience that so. many women have because it makes it feel. like he slapped her, they were arguing, there was an argument that went on. >> Yeah. >> And, you know, it does not. in any way articulate the terrorism that. you spoke of, nor the amount of. devastation and fear that a woman lives. in. >> It it There is a softening whenever you. add the word domestic onto anything.

It's coded as feminine, it's coded as. female. And you know, there's a story in my book. of a woman named Michelle Monson-Moja. >> Yeah, you start with her. Yeah. >> Yeah, I start with her. I actually kind. of dedicate the first third of the book. to her. She is killed at age 23 by her. husband Rocky. >> Not only she killed, she's killed and. the two children are killed, too. >> children are killed. And one of the. things he did in the months before he. killed her was they lived in Billings,

Montana. He went to the outskirts of. Billings and he got a rattlesnake. Poisonous rattlesnake, and he kept it in. a hexagonal cage in their living room. And he would say to her, "If you do. anything to piss me off, I'm going to put this. >> snake in our bed. >> in your bed or in the shower with you. >> Yeah. >> No visible bruises necessary, right? >> You wrote that so profoundly that I just. thought, "Wow, you're living with a. rattlesnake in your house." And you're. willing to live with a rattlesnake in.

your house. but then you brought up a. point because we all have asked this. question over the years, why do you. stay? Why do you stay? And you say we. should be asking the question why is he. violent? >> Yeah. Yeah, I've even learned so much since I. wrote that book. I keep learning and. keep learning and and I I think I would. even expand that now to to say that. needs to be two questions. Why is he. violent. and not why didn't she leave, but what. did she do?

And in the case of Michelle, so we we. the research will say. it takes on average. >> to try to get herself out? >> Yes, yes. >> woman knows that you can't make a sudden. move, that it's a process to try to get. yourself out. >> Yeah, with this vision of like leaving. is like. you know, a suitcase packed at the door. >> Go to Vegas, right? Or whatever. >> But like you know, they you think about. their kids might be in sports. They. might be taking care of elderly parents. They might have pets which you can't.

bring to a shelter. Maybe you don't want. to leave your family's China at home. So. there's all these barriers. You can't. just enroll your kids in another school. district without the the father signing. on or the other partner signing on. But. in Michelle's case, and I think her case. is fairly typical, there were all kinds. of things that she did throughout the. years to prepare for her freedom. Safety. measures that she took. So for example, Rocky didn't allow her to work, but he. did allow her to take classes. And the.

way she framed it was if I take nursing. classes, one of their children had. pretty significant health problems, if I. take nursing classes, I won't need to. bring her to the emergency room as much. and I'll be home more. I'll be under. your thumb more, right? She was really. smart about it. In her case, she knew. she wanted to get a nursing degree so. that she could afford to raise those. kids. That's just one of the things she. did. She also went to her father who. owned the house they were renting and. had her name put on the deed to the.

house so that she could get Rocky out. >> Yeah. >> Our systems, judges, police, whatever, we don't ask the question, "What did you. do to prepare for your safety? What. safety planning did you do?" We ask, "Why didn't you leave?" And just imagine. any other crime where we're like. "The impetus to change is on the person. the victim of that crime, right?". >> What what I want women to do is to see. the signs early. I mean, one of the. things that I said for years and years. and years on the show, and I think it.

did have an impact because I know a lot. of people told have since told me that. they left when they realized. that love doesn't hurt. Love doesn't hurt. And you allude to. this in your on literally in the. preface. I think this is so profound. You say, "We live in a culture in which. we are told our children must have a. father. That a relationship is the ultimate. goal. That family is the bedrock of.

society. That it's better to stay and. work out one's issues in private than to. leave and raise kids as a single. mother." Michelle, as you were just. speaking of, Michelle Monson Mosure said. this over and over when she insisted to. her mother that she didn't want to raise. her children in a broken home. A broken. home as if a home with one adult abusing. another adult isn't broken. As if there.

are degrees of brokenness. The messages. are insidious and they are consistent. I. think that's so profound. That women. don't realize that it's already broken. >> Right. >> It's already broken. >> broken. >> hitting you in front of your children, it's already broken. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. Do you think women are still. being raised to think this way, and how. do we change that narrative? >> I Yeah, I think they are still being. raised. I was raised to believe that the.

world was a dangerous place. That the. world. was out to get me. And it wasn't until I was in the world. that I realized no, my my house was. where the real danger. >> dangerous place. >> As it is for a lot of women. >> Yeah, you know, part of the issue is. that we don't live in a world where you. can. walk out the door and be free of. somebody who abuses you. We have.

technological ease right now for. stalking. I mean, you know, there's all. kinds of ways you can stalk somebody. We. have social media, which, you know, if. you're on social media as most people. are, and we have a court system that. really wants to make sure both parents. are in a child's life because they. believe that it's going to be better for. the child. And And probably most of the. time it is, but not when there's. violence.

>> So, research reveals that 60% of. domestic violence victims are strangled, which dramatically increases the chance. of violence in the home. Why is. strangulation. often the last step before homicide? >> It's That's a really It's such an. important question. I didn't I didn't. fully understand that strangulation was. a different marker of dangerousness. It's different than a kick or a punch. Um it is often the penultimate act.

before homicide. Um it carries two different. uh. two different potential injuries. One is. literally cutting off the airway. Um so, oxygen to the brain. >> And then I read in No Visible Bruises. that it also you're more more likely to. have a stroke. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It often is. >> or. >> Brain damage, blood clot. >> Yeah. And of course we don't have. emergency rooms that regularly scan.

victims of domestic violence for head. trauma in the way that we do, you know, car accident victims or kids with. sports. And you know, it is a particular. uh it is a particularly gendered act. because women don't just don't have the. hand strength for strangulation. >> So, 60% of the cases of people have been. strangled. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You spent years conducting interviews. and sitting in on group sessions with. with abusers. And what surprised you. about the men you encountered? The men.

who were the abusers. >> The men who were abusers were charming. and funny. You know, I've mentioned my father. My father was. also the guy. that took my daughter to the supermarket. to walk around. It was like the grandpa. granddaughter special thing. He was the. guy who knew every woman's name who can. handed out free samples at the grocery. store and their kids' names and their. life stories. He was. wonderful and charming and funny and.

also abusive. So, but I didn't even I didn't recognize. that I had grown up with that. until. and I I'm ashamed to say it wasn't this. book that I realized that. It was the. book that came after this. >> Uh-huh. >> And those guys in I've sat in on. prisons, I've sat in on abuser. intervention groups. It really shook me to think. oh, you're funny guys, you're smart.

guys. >> I know. >> You're educated guys. >> I know. I know. I know. I remember. having an aha moment years ago when I. was talking to um this man named Zeke. And I remember walking into the room. with this with all these guys who were, you know, were in this program but. supposedly for rehabbing and they all. look so like normal guys. Yeah. Okay, so. let's take a look at Zeke. He talks. about why he was physically abusive. Take a look. >> What does it take to change [music] this.

kind of behavior? What does it take? >> Oh, that's an easy question. That's probably the easiest question so. far. Uh learning. to tolerate pain. and learning to. manage. emotions [music] that don't feel good. And you're not going to always going to. get the reinforcement that you think you. need because you're dealing with with. with an outside person [music]. who has the right not to play the game. with you.

Even if it's beneficial for both people, they they they don't have to go along. with you. They don't even have to see. this as a problem. >> Okay. Let me tell you how [music]. profound it is, I think, because that is. the same thing I do to keep myself from. overeating. >> Wow. >> That is the same thing you do when you. want [music] to stop yourself from. taking the next drink when you're an. alcoholic. >> Exactly. >> It is the same thing you do if you're. addicted to any kind of, [music] you. know, behavior that is destructive to. you. You have to allow yourself to feel.

the pain. >> [music]. >> and allow yourself to deal with the. emotion that you automatically would. repress. or overlook or deny yourself. >> [music]. >> What you just did was you put it in a. context so that everybody can see that. what you used to do with your anger, lashing out, is the same thing that. everybody does. >> Exactly. >> That's how brilliant that is because. everybody does [music] it. But when. somebody does it in a form that you.

don't do or we don't do, we see that as. being those people who do that. Yeah. It's so interesting. He had said to me. uh either before that or after that. every time he hit his spouse. he would tell himself this will it will. never happen again. It will never happen. again. I won't do it again. This is the. last time. This is the last time. And. feel terrible afterwards. And I thought. that's what every addict feels. And so I. was wondering did your. um interviews and conversations with men.

who've abused, does it feel like an. addiction for them? Does it feel like. something they can't control? >> It's complicated. I do compare it to. addiction sometimes, but it's an. imperfect comparison because you know, addiction has so much. neuroscience behind it. And. violence I think is. socio-cultural. But I. I was able to I did a story for for the. New York Times a couple of years ago on.

this violence hotline in the UK. We. don't have anything like it in the US. nationally, but they have a national. violence hotline. Not domestic violence. hotline. So it's for people who are. using violence and want to stop. So the. police will give out this number when. they go go on calls or child protective. services. And they let me listen in for. about two or three months to these phone. calls. And they're all anonymous. So. the it's 85% men who call. And they.

don't you know, they don't give their. name. And because they're not. because they're anonymous, they don't. have to perform. And what was amazing to. me to listen to them was how many were. calling up first of all sobbing. How. often do you hear men cry? Not very. often. And they were saying, I don't. want to be like this. I don't want to I. don't want to be this person. But they. had no sort of training on exactly what. Zig said, on how to manage their.

>> pain. >> their pain. >> their rage. >> absolutely. >> their rage. >> and I think the more interesting. programs that I've sat in on for for. people who use violence are ones in. which they're able to connect not just. the. the emotional. the emotional constellation that's. happening but the ones where they can. actually notice their physical body. >> what they.

>> look like how intimidating they look. their voices those are those are ones. that really where you really see aha. moments for these guys. >> and and also in in in in no visible. bruises one of the things you talk about. is when you ask law enforcement do you. think that men can be rehabilitated. from violence and change they say no and. women who are abused say they hope so. but the men themselves say yes and I. think yes is the answer but it takes a. lot of work and I think for any woman.

who's living with an abusive husband. unless that person or an abusive spouse. or partner or brother or whomever. if that person isn't willing to seek. help for it they're not going to resolve. it on their own. >> that's that's the key. no that's. >> your own. >> that's absolutely the key it's it's. that's where the that's where the that's. >> that you just decide one day I'm not. going to do it anymore. >> absolutely that's the I think that's. where the addiction parallel is valid. >> behavior it's learned behavior and it's. that's how you react that's how you. react.

>> and they they have to see. the benefit in their own lives they have. to say oh my life is better when my. children aren't scared of me my life is. better when my wife is happy and not. cowering for example. >> and and the people who are able to see. that are the people who are actually. able to change. >> to see cuz aren't most of them. narcissists. >> [laughter]. >> yes. >> and so they love the power and the. control and the I'm the one.

if you're not going to be with me, you're not going to be any with anybody. Well, one of the stories, you know, I. did 4,561 shows. I've interviewed over. 35,000 people one-on-one. And so a lot. of things get buried in my memory, but. there is one woman's story. that nearly 20 years ago I had a. conversation with this woman, Susan, who was a mother of three who had. endured 17 years of physical and. emotional abuse by her husband. Her.

story was especially shocking. It. shocked our whole audience because her. then husband, Rachel, forced her. 13-year-old son to videotape. the violence. So there we see her son on camera. filming it. And I want to give warning that this. footage is. uh physical and verbal abuse and may be. difficult to watch. >> This is Susan on her wedding day. 17. years ago, the arms of the man she.

believed was the love of her life. carried her across the threshold. Now I want you to take a look at Susan 4. years ago. on June 23rd, 2003, one day after the. video that you're about to see was. taped. Keep in mind that the images in. today's show are not suitable for young. children. They're not suitable for. anyone. >> You play those stupid games with me, I'll knock your teeth out of your face. You hear me?

>> It's the nightmare we hear happens. behind closed doors, but rarely, if. ever, see. >> You keep playing this game with me, I'm. going to knock your head across that. wall. >> In a rage, Susan still's husband. emotionally and verbally attacks her in. front of their children. >> Don't start again telling me you don't. want to see yourself get beat in front. of the kids, but you act like a. in front of the kids. >> Her husband even commands their. 13-year-old son to shoot the abuse on. home video. >> Zoom in on that heffer. >> The video tape records 51 minutes of.

fear. For more than 40 of those minutes, Susan stand in the same spot desperately. trying to avoid another beating. >> And just you standing there talking. stupid like that pisses me off cuz she. should be on your knees apologizing you. stupid. >> Susan says simply asking her husband if. he'd like a sandwich set him off. >> you deliberately come up here and with. my dick? >> With her oldest son, 13, on the other. side of the lens and her 8-year-old son. also in the room, Susan's husband calls.

her stupid 23 times, heffer 28 times, among other dehumanizing names. >> That's what you are. Total. >> I don't need to be stupid. I don't need. to act stupid. I don't want to act. stupid. I told him that I'm sorry. You. was totally wrong. >> The abuse then turns from words and. threats to fists and an explosion of. violence.

>> You shouldn't have even been with me all. these years or causing like you've been. doing all these years. You shouldn't have been doing that. >> For 10 horrifying minutes, Susan endures. a merciless beating repeatedly punched, kicked, and slapped. >> way you look. Look at the way you look. You could say something dumb things to. me and you know you have a nerve about. your stupid. You have a stupid nerve about your. stupid self and you don't learn after I. don't beat your dumb ass. You. do not learn.

Get back up on the bed and try it again. >> Well, after we aired Susan's story on. The Oprah Show, operators from the. National Domestic Violence Hotline. reported that they received three times. the number of phone calls than normal. and they had to, you know, hire extra. people. Susan now joins us via Zoom. Hi, Susan. >> Hi. >> Hi. How are you?

>> It is so good to see you again. Thank. you for talking with us. Thank you for talking with us. Uh as I said, I've done thousands of. shows and thousands of interviews, but. your story and the story of your boys um. you know, always remains with me and. anytime I talk about this subject of. domestic violence or as Rachel has said, the word is really terrorism. Don't you. think that's a better word? Terrorism. >> Absolutely. That's the word. I use that.

word when I. speak um. to, you know, across. the country. Absolutely. >> So, how are you doing? How are you doing. and how are your children doing? >> We're doing great. >> We're doing great. Really? >> Yes, absolutely. I have a great life. I um. you know, still um. do things to make sure that I'm okay. >> Mhm. >> And um and we're really well.

>> And the boys are well. >> Yes. Yes, very well. >> Yeah, cuz I always worried about your. son who was filming that, how that would. affect his life, affect his view of. himself. >> Statistically, my children should be either in prison. or. dead or addicted to something. None of. them are that. at all. >> Yeah. >> They're all very well. They um Some have. families. Um.

and they are great. >> So, in 2004, your ex-husband was. sentenced to 36 years in prison, the. longest sentence ever at the time. imposed for uh non-lethal domestic. violence in New York State at the time. and understand that he was released in. 2021 after serving 17 years of that. sentence. >> Correct. >> How has his release impacted you and. your family? >> Uh, what that does is, uh, it sets you. back for a moment. Um,

but it life life goes on. You. you can't fall back into, you know, a. person that allows him to still control. what happens in my life. Mhm. Um, and, you know, cowering, being fearful, and. worried, those kind of things, um, allow. him to still have control. Mhm. So, he. can't have that with me. Um, so, you do.

the things that you need to do to make. sure that you protect yourself, that you. stay safe, and you live your life. >> And you live your life. And you now go. around speaking and talking to other. women about this. >> I speak to anyone. Um, I do a lot of law. enforcement training. I do colleges. I. do the military. Um, uh, community responders. >> Mhm.

>> Yes. >> And what do you think when you see. yourself? I'm sure you're not going. around looking at that tape, but you. certainly have a memory of yourself in. that position, in that docile, subservient position. What do you think. of yourself and what do you want to say. to that woman in that tape? >> It's. difficult for me to look back and see. myself in that place because before I. was her, I was. a, um,

you know, I didn't have a self-esteem. issue. I I was okay. And then to see. myself like that, I mean, I was really. at that point, nothing about me was. left. >> Yeah. >> You become. part of their world. Their world is the. only world. >> Mhm. >> And so everything about me, you know, my. opinions were all the same as his. opinions. Always that. I could never be.

my own individual self because whenever. I was, that was deemed wrong. >> Okay, can you share with us because. Rachel has talked about in in No Visible. Bruises and shared a bit here about how. it starts with the controlling, with the. you don't want to I don't want you to. drive, I don't want you to work, I don't. want I know you were working and one of. the reasons why he was convicted is. because your coworkers saw you you know, coming in bruised and it was your. coworker who kept a record of of what. had happened that actually allowed him.

to be put away. So, tell us how did it. start? Do you remember the first time? >> It eases it the control eases in um. because I when I was in court in in the. trial, that was the first time I had seen the. video. since that night that that the video was. recorded. >> And I you know, I sat there and by then. I had gotten some good information.

And so I looked at myself and I was you. know, I would say, "Susan, how did you. get there?". I just couldn't it was very difficult. And. um I thought about it for a long time. and what I realized is that that didn't. happen to me overnight. That happened to. me over time. It starts out with very little things. It starts out in the guise of love.

Um you know, sometimes there are little. things that they'll say they're doing. this to protect you. They're doing this. to make sure you're okay. Doing it. because I love you. I want you to be. good. And what it does though is it. allows the control to creep in. As you. said over earlier, you think, "Oh my. god, he's you know, he loves me so. much.". >> Mhm. >> Um, you know, he just wants me to be. okay. And that's how it begins. >> Every time it happened you think. maybe it won't happen again. Or did you.

reach a point where you realize it's. always going to happen again? >> No. I thought that if I could fix me. because he was saying that I was the. problem. >> Yeah. >> I was the one that was doing stupid. things. I was the one that couldn't get. it right. And so my thought process was. if I fix me everything will go back to. be the way that it used to be because in. all these relationships all of us have. good memories from the be you know, in.

the beginning when they are Prince. Charming. >> Yeah. >> So, we think if we can fix ourselves. then everything will go back to be that. And um, but what happens is, you know, they. they tell you what you're doing wrong. And as soon as you do it the way they. want it, they move the goal post. Then. they well, it's not right this time, you. know, because of something else. So, you're you're never going to be able. to get it right, but I didn't know that.

then. No. >> Wow. Well, you know, I remember talking. to you and also talking to your son. Desmond, who was just 8 years old uh. when that video tape was made. Desmond. joins us. It's nice to see you again. here too. Hey, look at you grown man. WOW. >> 10 YEARS, RIGHT? >> [laughter]. >> WOW. >> HOW YOU BEEN? >> HOW YOU BEEN? >> I've been all right. You know, growing. up day by day, you know what I'm saying? >> Oh my.

god. What a shot. >> [laughter]. >> OH MY GOSH. WE GOT to put your little. boy face up there compared to now. >> [laughter]. >> Thanks for being here. What are your. memories of that time? What are your. memories of that time? Was that a tough. time for you? >> Like I blocked out a lot of stuff. Um. so there's not like there's some there's. some good times, of course, that I remember, but like like all the. family meetings, all the just barrage of. constant stuff with my mom. It's like. even It's been a while since I seen the.

video. And so like even looking at the. video now, I'm like I used to get so mad. when I see the video and feel guilt and. shame and like so many different. emotions. Now I look at him and I'm. like, "Yo, you. My father looks so stupid in that video. He looks so stupid saying all that.". Which hurts cuz that's my father. And I'm like, "Why?" And like of all the. trauma I know he had in his childhood. and all that, it's still like, "Man, the. ways that your your mind doesn't make. sense." And I can see it in his.

expression and in his eyes. I'm like, "The ways that you learn to be a man. don't make sense.". >> Wow. >> can't see that at all. So it's like. it's. This is the first time that I've. actually seen the video. and seen it in that filter. >> Wow. >> to be just a whole bunch of my personal. emotions knowing that I was there. >> Couldn't do anything. Did you feel. helpless as a little boy for your mom? Did you feel helpless? >> So like I was sitting up there under a. blanket just singing to myself and.

I I shut down as many of my senses when. a lot of stuff was happening as I could. >> Yeah. >> And so. even then, that's why I don't really. have. amazing memories, but I do remember. looking around my environment and. feeling incredibly let down by it. That. was a feeling that I didn't know how to. articulate in my mind at the time at. all. I didn't learn that until recently. But. that feeling persisted. That little.

subset of anger in my body. >> time we spoke, you told me you couldn't. forgive your father for what he'd done. until you'd spoken with him. Are you. still in that space? Do you want to Do. you want to Do you even want to forgive? >> It's It's one of those things where. there's some things that he did that are. irredeemable. I just accept that. Um. There's Like I said, like I understand. that he had a lot to happen in his. childhood. He experienced a lot. So, from a compassionate standpoint for the. boy in him and the circumstances he was.

raised in, it it hurts me to know that he went. through a lot of stuff and a lot of. stuff that I'll never know, but. for what he did to my mother and like my. siblings and me, there's There's. some things that I could forgive and. then there's some things that I. I never could. >> How How do you think How do you think, Desmond, what you witnessed in your. home, the terror and the fear? I mean, you just described, you know, your. 8-year-old self hiding under the blanket.

and, you know, blocking so many things. out. How did that shape who you are. today? >> All of that in my home, I didn't realize. this until like this week. That. created a huge momentum of fear building. up in me in my life. >> Mhm. >> I didn't even realize like. for the last like maybe six, seven. years, maybe longer,

it is very normal for me to sleep for. like 4 and 1/2 hours to 5 hours a night. And like I go to the gym, so like I have. reason to be tired when I lay my head. down at night. Like I'm exhausted a lot. of the time. And I've gotten very used to operating. on very little sleep many days. >> Mhm. >> And I realized that that is so. there's so much fear that I have in my. body. And so that my childhood set me up. to accumulate a lot of fear throughout. life. >> Wow. >> Yeah, and I didn't realize how much it. was.

It's like being in the ocean, you're in. the ocean but you don't realize. [clears throat] you're in it until you. come out the water. >> Are you proud of your mom and how far. your mom has come from those those. moments? >> Yes. Yes, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> I can look in the video and see. I see. >> her terror. >> Yeah, like someone who. someone who just had the best of them. their value.

>> Mhm. >> made she was just made to feel so. worthless. >> Mhm. >> Uh what such a a beautiful person she. was. >> Yeah. >> This this this sucks. This sucks to see. >> It sucks to see but it's great to see. you. It is great to see you. Yeah, and I wish you nothing but. goodness. Goodness and mercy. May it. follow you all the days of your life. Goodness and mercy. Susan, what message.

do you want abuse victims to take away. from your story? That you can come out on the other side. It's wonderful to see you and your. beautiful son. >> Absolutely. There There you can have a. life after abuse. You can have a good. life after abuse. And there are so many. um. resources, so many. um law you know, there are laws that are. changing. Um. strangulation is one of them. You were. talking about strangulation earlier and.

>> Yeah. >> that was a misdemeanor when when I went. through this and now many states have. made it a felony. >> Well, I wish you as I said to Dezmen, I. I continue to think about you and I wish. you both just goodness and mercy and. thank you so much for sharing. And you. know, and I'm sure you've heard this. yourself because anytime I've ever. brought up your story, people were so. moved by your story. So many women found. the courage to get up and leave and make.

a plan for themselves, began to make a. plan for themselves and eventually. eventually leave because of hearing your. story and because of that interview I. did with young eight-year-old cutie pie. Desmond at the time. And your. willingness to liberate yourself allowed. a lot of other women to get free for. themselves. >> Well, I appreciate that. That's the. goal. That's the goal of sharing the. story. As next family does not have to.

go through this. The next The children. don't have to go through the same things. that my children have gone through. So, thank you for letting us. >> Come on. >> You know what I think you know what I. think is so important what Desmond just. said because as I was reading from. Rachel's book earlier, so many women. think they have to stay in the. relationship because they don't want the. broken home. And I think. >> Desmond describing his eight-year-old. self underneath the covers and the fear.

that he still lives with today as as as. as a grown man is really important for. mothers in particular to know. You're. not saving your children. You're not. saving your sons by allowing them to be. in an environment where they witness all. this abuse. So, thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. for joining me. Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. We appreciate you. This past December, Spencer and Monique. Teppy were fatally shot in their. Columbus, Ohio home in the middle of the. night while their two young children.

slept nearby. You all might have seen. that story or heard about that story. 11. days later, authorities arrested Dr. Michael McGee, Monique's ex-husband. He's currently charged with murder and. has pled not guilty. The case made. national headlines. Spencer's sister, Maddie, and her husband, Rob, join us. now from Ohio. Maddie and Rob, we are. all so sorry, really, for your family's. loss. But, hopefully, this story helps uh. bring light to somebody else's story.

who's listening. Been listening to us, Rachel has written a book about it, and. it's been through many, many, many, many, many cases very much like yours. Maddie, tell us a little about your. brother and his wife. >> Yeah, so uh Spencer was. he was such a good big brother. He was. like equal parts goofball, athlete, and. kind of a nerd. He's a little bit type. A. And but he was just like so. disciplined and fearless.

And like you just you could not. embarrass him. So, oftentimes, it made. him the funniest person in the room and. like the most responsible person as. well, which just a unique combination. to have. And then, Monique was just so such a. warm person and had truly the biggest, most inviting smile. And I only met her. post. Michael. >> You all knew about him. >> We knew of an ex-husband. We never knew. his name. >> Did you know that the ex-husband was an.

abuser? >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And Rob, I understand as soon as. you heard what happened, you knew who. was responsible. What What did she say about her. ex-husband, Monique? What did she say? >> Yeah, knowing Monique for 8 years, um. she she was not shy about talking about. her ex-husband. And that that's what she. would say, "My ex-husband." She would. never say his name, so we didn't even. know his I didn't even find out his name. until that night. Um but you know, she. would she would tell us that he he would. threaten her. He would threaten to kill.

her. Um, he was emotionally abusive to. her. Uh Um, and, you know, early on when. we found out that. when they when their bodies were found. and that this wasn't just some random. break-in, um, this was, you know, a. targeted attack. It It was really the. the most likely answer is usually the. correct one and and those other I mean, nobody can say a bad thing about those. those two. So, um, he's the only person. that that could come to mind. Um, so, from right there I kind of.

feel like we all kind of knew in our. hearts so that you know, that's that's. probably who did this. >> I heard. >> It also sounded so crazy because it had. been. 8 years. >> Yeah. And which is interesting because Rachel. says in no visible bruises that. that there is no end date, right? >> There is there is no end date. Unlike. war, natural disaster, any kind of criminal act, there's no end. date for domestic violence. And that's I.

think what so many of our systems don't. understand. >> This is what I don't understand and. maybe you all don't either. I don't. understand the person is beating you up, the person is, you know, obviously. enraged, and then has this need to. believe that you are mine, right? Because hadn't he said to her, Rob, or. maybe she told you this I read this that. you you will never be married to anybody. else but me, you are mine. >> Uh, yeah, Maddie, you.

>> It was something kind of like that. >> And you know, if you if you leave me, I'll find the house next door to you and. I'll I'll move in right next to you to. no right next door to you, you're always. going to be my wife. Um, so, yeah, that's that's how he felt. >> What is that? What have you found in. your research? >> That, you know, I've. that I sent a chill down my spine. because I've heard that in other. stories. That a man saying I. In the case I'm thinking of, I'm going. to buy the house across the street from. you and he tried to. He tried to. And I.

think it's one of the most important. things I tell when I do speaking, I tell. domestic violence agencies, make sure. when you are doing your trainings that. you are inviting the local clergy, that. you are inviting local HR departments, that you are inviting the social workers. from high school. Like we've got to. bring in other systems and other people. >> Yeah. >> Um [clears throat] I I just I feel so. awful. It was so recent in your case and. I mean I read about it in the newspaper. as well. >> And he had broken into the house weeks.

before, right? >> We don't know. He was in the. what the the word they use is curtilage, which I guess could mean any property. >> Yeah. Around We we suspect kind of the. backyard, but we don't we don't know. >> And Ian Robb, how are you doing? >> We're. hanging in there. Um. >> Um yeah, we we just took a little bit of. time off. Um. you know, we went to California with. some family and we had some some of. Spencer and Monica's friends join us. Um.

kind of just to get away from it, but. you know, you you can't run from your. feelings necessarily. Uh it was good to. be around these people and talk about. things, but you know, it's it's it's. just lingering and and the pressure of. it just feels so large. >> live in fear of him? Did she ever think. something like this could happen? >> I mean, I think ultimately yes, she did, but we never thought that it was a. present threat. >> Yeah. >> We just thought this is what happened to. her and that's why. uh you know, she would respond to things. the way that she did.

>> Yeah, and I I think on top of the on top. of that, she was obviously working very. hard on mental health. Um and then you. add Spencer into the mix who's just the. most optimistic positive person that we. know. Everything seems all right. You. know, she would bring it up here and. there, but like it it just felt like it, you You it was getting better and it was. it was more in the past. >> That they were going on with their. lives. >> Yeah. >> That they were going and he never. indicated to you, your brother, that it. was a problem.

>> Right. No. >> The children. >> Outside of this her having anxiety about. it. >> Yeah. The children who were in the home. at the time of the murders are now, I. understand, just four and one. How are. they doing and where are they? >> You know, I want to respect their. privacy, but I can tell you that they're. they're safe, they're with family, and. that both, you know, the the Teppy. family and and Monique's family are are. doing everything they can to to come. together and make sure that they're. getting all the support and love that.

they need. >> What is the message or the wake-up call. you want people to take away from your. family's tragedy? What can we learn from. you all? >> Well, I I think about that a lot and. um. you know, I people you look on the. internet and you just hear all of these. comments and a lot of people say, "Well, why didn't she hide better? You know, why didn't she. uh you know, why didn't she do more to. protect herself? Why. why why why didn't she do something,

right?". >> Why didn't she do something? >> they have better security? And. I just feel like why is it on the woman. to protect herself? Like if. if she had under Ohio law, if she had. gotten a restraining order when this. happened, it would have expired after 5. years. And then. and then there would be unless there was. another present threat, they would the. court would have laughed her out out of. there if if she tried to have it. extended. Restraining orders are not. bulletproof. >> Yeah. >> Right. Yeah. >> That's so true. If, you know, somebody's.

crazy enough to to make this happen, what's a restraining order going to do, right? >> Well, we're we're wishing all the best. for you and your family as you go. forward. Thank you, Rob and Maddie, and. we thank you for sharing your family's. story. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> for having us. >> Thank you. >> In the uh afterword, you write that you. didn't think that you had a personal. connection. to domestic violence. until you did. Tell us what happened. >> Yeah. My.

dear friend Michelle, her brother and. his wife. had two daughters and their older. daughter was. my daughter's best friend in elementary. school. Just a weird confluence of. circumstances. And. when the day of their fifth grade. graduation, the girls' fifth grade. graduation, I was actually on book tour. for this book. Uh Jason was his name. Uh. Jason killed his wife and then killed. himself.

And they were going through a terrible. divorce, but I knew them both. They were. invited to the book release party. I. mean, I. I still am shocked by. the fact that that happened. And my. friend Michelle, she lived in Chicago. Um. she got on the first flight she could to. come to DC where we all lived. And. she never went home again. You know, she. didn't have any kids and suddenly she. has to up and move to Washington, DC.

>> It just goes to show you, we don't we. don't know who is and who isn't. >> We have no idea. >> no idea. >> I still am just. shocked. >> Mhm. >> by. by what happened. >> Well, I thank you for writing this book. And I thank you for being here uh for. this critical conversation and for. helping us to see that we need to do. better. because the stats are getting worse, not. better. And all of the talk about.

self-empowerment, we need to do a better job of looking. out for each other and especially. for other women in our lives. So, thank. you so much, Susan. Thank you, Dasmine, Robin, Maddie for allowing us to see the. devastating impact that this has had on. your families and Rachel's book No. Visible Bruises, What We Don't Know. About Domestic Violence Can Kill Us is. available wherever books are sold. Normally after a conversation like this.

you'd put up. we put up information about a domestic. violence hotline. It feels like it's one. of those mandatory things people do and. say. But if you suspect that someone. that you know or is in this situation, what should you say to them? What do you. think you should say to them? >> I think you the first thing you do is. open up a non-judgmental space for them. to talk. Because it takes a lot of years. for someone to be able to extricate.

themself from that situation. And I. think you just having a conversation. about it is so important. >> Yeah. >> I think we talk about it. Let's talk. about it to our book clubs. We're all in. book clubs. Right? Let's talk about it. to our walking groups, our friend. groups. Let's just normalize the. conversation and say like, you know, this is not okay. >> Yeah, so that a woman in a group like. that doesn't feel so ashamed cuz I think. there's so much shame attached to it.

Because you're trying to create this. facade that everything's okay and you're. so ashamed. Creating the space where women can feel. comfortable. talking about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thank you Rachel. >> Thank you. >> Bruises. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Maybe you were [music] as shocked as I. was to learn that globally the most. dangerous place for a woman today is. inside her home. If you or someone you. love is experiencing [music] or is at. risk of domestic violence, I'm urging.

you to read Rachel Louise Snyder's. eye-opening book No Visible [music]. Bruises. It's happening to you, you're. going to see yourself in every page. You. can buy the book right this second by. scanning the QR code on your screen. Literally. Scan [music] the code, you'll. have the book in seconds. Our listeners. tell us [music] that the podcast is. resonating with you and is serving as a. bright spot in your day. That means a. lot to me. So, here's the thing. [music]. I would really appreciate it if you like.

and subscribe to the Oprah podcast. [music] on YouTube or wherever you. podcast. It's It's just a quick tap of. the subscribe button. >> [music]. >> and that way you won't miss an episode. in your queue. You don't have to pay. anything. [music]. I know subscribe usually means you're. paying something, but this time it means. you just are notified when there's. something [music] new. There are many. more to come that we're excited about. So, thank you for watching and. listening.