Do Dogs Really Love Us? with Oprah and Dr. Carl Safina

Hi everyone, welcome to the Oprah. podcast. I'm so glad you're spending. your time here with us. I'm really. really excited for this episode because. we're exploring an idea that I've. wondered about, maybe you have too, but. I've wondered about this for years. Do. our dogs share the same love for us as. we have for them? Do dogs and other. animals experience joy, grief, loneliness, even hope? Over the years, I've had 21 dogs, each one a unique. member of my family who gave us. so much love and so many memories. My.

guest says that dogs help make us the. people we would like to be. Isn't that. the truth? Carl Safina is a. world-renowned ecologist and. conservationist who writes extensively. and may I say exquisitely, too, >> Thank you. >> about the interior lives of animals, including his New York Times bestseller. Beyond Words, What Animals Think and. Feel, which is just an absolutely. fascinating read, highly recommended.

Uh, and your newest book, What Owls Know and. What Humans Believe. Okay, can I tell. you welcome, first of all? >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thanks so much for being here. >> Fantastic to be here. >> Well, when I read, uh, after reading. this book, I had the most interesting. dream. about my former, uh, cocker spaniels. that I had for 13 and 14 years in the. '90s, Sophie and Solomon, that I took to. work every day with me. >> Uh-huh.

>> uh, during the Oprah show. And no matter. where I was, they were either in a green. room waiting, if it was Oscars, they. were waiting backstage. Anyway, they. passed away years ago. And I hadn't had. a dream about them. And after reading. this book, and I I had a dream that. something had happened to So- Sophie had. been injured. She was the black cocker, and Solomon was the my brown cocker. Sophie, they were together. Sophie had. been injured. >> In the dream. >> In the dream. And I could see that she was injured and.

I came up to Solomon and I said, "Tell. me what happened.". And he And And And And he transmitted. what had happened to me. And it was And. I And in the dream, because I have lucid. dreams, in the dreams I said, "Oh, I'm. dreaming this because I just read about. elephants communicating.". >> Dr. Carl Safina is a renowned. conservationist and passionate defender. of animals in the natural world. Do they. have their own consciousness? His work has earned many honors,

including a MacArthur Genius Prize. Carl's beautiful writing [music]. encourages us to better understand our. relationship to animals and our shared. planet. >> If we're so powerful, why aren't we. taking care of the miracle of the world. that made us and maintains us? >> Our conversation about dogs included. some truly heroic stories of dogs coming. to their owners' rescue. >> I still get chills thinking about it. My house was filled with black smoke. >> Carl also delves deeper into the.

relational bond that connects all living. creatures. That is powerful. That is powerful. >> [music]. >> You know, one of the things I loved when. I was reading Beyond Words is that it's. very clear that you recognize not only. recognize, but say that you believe that. animals are different, but not less than. us. >> Mhm. >> What do we need to. unlearn about our relationship to.

animals? >> Yes, well, in a way, that is the exploration I went through. when we raised this baby owl. >> And then this book which brings us to. Alfie and me. Yes. >> Right? And so, I've been with animals my. whole life. I've had them, cared for. them, trained them, been with them. And. it we raised this little wild owl, and I. was so surprised at her relational. capacity. She would sometimes come over.

and want to be stroked and lean into it. like just like our dogs do. And I was. saying, "What of all people, why am I surprised? Why don't I know? I think I'm tuned in, but why don't I. know that these creatures have these. capacities for relationality, which they. have? They They have that with their own. families in their own life." But you. knew that. >> Why? You wrote You had written Beyond. Words. >> Well, I I thought so. I thought so, but.

this was an. the proximity, the closeness, the the. mutual seeking of the pleasure of. physical contact with me and a baby owl. that we raised. >> Yeah, I saw that moment where you where. you first touched her and she goes, >> Yeah. It's unbelievable, right? Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, it's nice, right? Oh, yeah. >> So, I thought, "Well, why did we. alienate ourselves from the whole rest. of this living planet?" And. I thought, "Well, are we just not.

intelligent enough beings, or are we. taught our disconnection?". >> We're taught that we have dominion over. the animals, and therefore we think that. >> That's a huge part of it. But But other. Well, therefore we think that we're. we're. >> powerful and we're better. Yes, definitely think we're better. >> is more value to us than there is to the. rest of the world. The whole rest of the. world is here to serve us, to yield to. us. >> part of the animal kingdom. >> we are in a huge network of.

relationships on a miraculous planet. So, why don't we know that? So, I said, "Well, >> Some cultures do, though. >> Right. Right. >> Right. And that's what I explored. through through this book. What do What. do other cultures teach about our. relationship with the world? And it. turns out that all indigenous cultures. teach that we're all one family. All the. South Asian religions, all the dharmic. religions teach that the soul goes. equivalently through different lifetimes. in the reincarnation process and in the.

process of karma, right? The Eastern. religions teach that the world is run by. these balances of necessary opposites. What what might look like opposites, they're necessary to balance. And the. human role is not to disturb So, every. other realm of human thought over. thousands of years were that all life is. family, the world is a set of balances, we should maintain the balances, and. respect basically the holiness of this.

sacred world. But, the West is a total. outlier because in the West we came up. with this idea that the whole world is. here to serve us and we're better than. everything. And that is the root of our. disconnection. We are taught that. It's. not a natural thing. It's It's just a. different way of looking at things and. it's It deprives us because we've. written the miracle out of our script. >> But, what has Alfie taught you?

>> Well, really she has taught me that all. these other creatures that are out in. the wild, that they really have wild. lives, that she knows like for instance, she knew our dogs. But, if a if a friend came with a. strange dog, that that dog would freak. her out. She'd react like, "Oh, that's a. potential predator. I'm afraid of it. I'm going to get away." But, our dogs, she'd just go and sit next to them. So, she knows who she is by. where she is and who she's with. And how. do we know who we are? By who we're with.

and where we are. >> Yes. >> It's the same thing. >> Wow, that's fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. And makes. >> feeling of You know, I used to think. animals are really cool. I used to think. animals are really beautiful. I used to. think nature was really peaceful. But. more more and more I really feel like. it's it's an absolute miracle is what it. totally is. Life is a miracle. The definition of. miracle is it's something that breaks. the laws of physics, you know, like in.

in literature and movies where you have. a miracle, it's where something happens. that really can't happen, right? >> Right. >> Energetically, the laws of physics second law of. thermodynamics says everything tends. toward disorder. You put a drop of ink. in a bowl of water, it will spread out, the water will turn gray. It will never. become a drop of ink ever ever ever, right? But you take an egg that's laid, you know what an egg looks like on the. inside, we've cracked enough of them. open, and it makes itself a bird. >> Yeah.

>> That that violates the laws of physics. It's a negative entropy that maintains. itself in a state far from equilibrium. The entire universe is going toward. equilibrium. Living things maintain. themselves in a state far from. equilibrium. And that's not supposed to happen. But that's what life is. >> We ask you, our podcast listeners, to. send us pictures of your precious dogs. who I know are really your family.

members. I know. I'd like to read a. passage from Carl Safina's remarkable. book Beyond Words. So, do other animals have human. emotions? Yes, they do. Do humans have animal. emotions? >> [music]. >> Yes. They're largely the same. Fear, aggression, well-being, anxiety, and pleasure are the emotions of shared. brain structures and shared chemistries. originated in shared [music] ancestry.

They are the shared feelings of a shared. world. So, this from page 34 Beyond Words, do. other animals have, you say, human. emotions? Yes, they do. They do? >> They have Well, do Do other animals have emotions? They. have emotions, and humans have animal. emotions because humans are animals. So, there's a lot of analogous things. >> Yes. >> And there are a lot of things that I. think are very much the same. Not all.

the same. Like, you know, I mean, even. among people, people's people's emotions. differ and emotionality differs. And I. think that's the same among species. It. differs, but they have the same kinds of. emotions that we have because they have. the same nervous system that we have. The same neurotransmitters, the same. hormones, exactly the same molecules. Those chemicals are the same. And so, if a dog seems happy, they're happy. >> And they do smile. Don't they smile? >> do smile.

>> goodness, I was walking running with. Sadie the other day. She was smiling. >> Yes, definitely. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> And do they have their own. consciousness? >> Uh well, what do you mean by. consciousness? The way I think of it is. when we have total anesthesia, we're. unconscious. That means we're not. connected to our senses. So, they have. that kind of consciousness. They see. with their eyes, they hear with their. ears, they smell with their noses, they. play and have fun. They're afraid of. danger. They're fierce in defensive. their territory or their people if.

they're dogs in our family. And all of. that stuff is very relatable because. it's basically the same thing. >> So, I know you're a fellow dog lover. Do. you. do you believe or know that our dogs. love us? Do they love us or they just. looking for a treat? >> That's another thing like consciousness. is that we use the word so differently. We say, "Oh, I love my mother. I love my. children. I love ice cream. I love. shopping for shoes.". >> it for everything. >> same word. But, if you think of what. love feels to us when we love someone,

we feel that we want to be close to. them, right? And so, just for instance, in our house, our. dogs are never given any kind of a treat. or fed or anything like that upstairs in. the bedroom. But at night they come. upstairs. Why? Because they want to be. near us. When I'm in my writing cottage, our dogs frequently leave the house, come up the little path to the writing. cottage, they hang out. Why? Because. they want to be near me. I want to be. near them, too, because I love them.

That's what love feels like. And yeah, that's love. >> And that's how you know it's not just. looking for a treat. >> Yes. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> So, you say that our pets show us how to. be better than we are. What does that. mean? >> Well, I think, you know, because people. are very complex and people are. sometimes a little duplicitous and. people are not always honest with. themselves or each other. But our dogs. are their What you see is what you get.

They are loyal. They are forgiving. They. always want to get past it and get. beyond it. They always want to make up. They are very fierce when they feel that. we are being threatened. And, you know, if we could just be. straight shooters, loyal, always want to. get past our troubles, defend what we. love and defend our people and our.

place, that I think that we would be a. little better for it. And the dogs in. that way show us a way to do that. >> Well, you not only, you know, I know you. have dogs. You recently lost your dog, Jude. >> did lose one, yes. Jude, yes. >> And how old was Jude? >> He was 14. >> Yeah, 14's about the age for big dogs. I. lost a lot of dogs at 14. >> very peacefully over about a day and a. half. I think we were in a way lucky. He. went so peacefully. He just drained. away. And he was just lying in his bed. >> feel the life force leaving.

>> Yeah. >> Uh-huh. >> Yeah. Yeah, but he didn't seem in pain. or uncomfortable or even really. particularly unhappy, actually. >> Yes, because dogs are just. what I've learned about being in the. present moment is that dogs are always. just in the present. >> That's another That's another thing that. they show us, yes. Right. Just like be. there with all four feet in the. >> Yeah. And they're not worried about what. they did or did they knock over the. water bowl or what they did. >> not worried about whether they're going. to get into graduate school or get the. promotion or the next job or what their.

sister-in-law said to them or anything. like that. >> Did you grow up loving animals? Is that. how you came to write about animals and. >> I did absolutely grow up loving animals, but the but the funny thing is, I. actually. Up until 15 years ago, I would have said. I don't really like dogs. Isn't that weird? >> That is very weird. >> And the reason is. when I was I I liked dogs that I had. I.

loved dogs that I had, but in general. the reason is that a lot of the. interactions with people and their dogs. that you see. >> Mhm. >> is not very pleasant. It's not very. pleasant to be around. And because dogs. have such complicated minds and. emotional systems, they can be. traumatized. They can be hurt. They can. be very uncomfortable around a. particular person that doesn't. understand them well or treats them. badly, right? And you kind of see it a. lot there. >> they're treated badly, they live in fear. of that person forever, yes.

>> Yeah. They They can They can live in. fear and and they can be traumatized, you know? And when I see people. dogs are trying to sniff on a walk and. they're just yanking on the chain or. they're yelling at them or they're. holding them tight on the leash. It's. just unpleasant. And. somebody who a friend of ours said, "You. know, one thing I love about you is you. always let your dogs be dogs. And I. never thought of it that way before, but. that's become sort of like my guiding. principle is to let them be dogs. >> And how do you do that? >> I let them show us what they kind of.

would like to do. We provide guardrails. that if they like you a lot, the. guardrails just have to be very gentle. But often I whisper my commands because. if you whisper, they have to make sure. that they're hearing you instead of. yelling at them all the time. If you. have a little puppy and you want it to. follow you, you walk away from it. instead of, you know, dragging it around. on a leash. You take it off the leash. and you walk away and it's like, "Oh, wait, I'm here alone. No, I don't want. to be here alone." So, I mean, it's.

easy. It's actually easy because their. evolved social behavior is more like. people than probably any other animal. >> So, you said up until about 15 years. ago. So, 15 years ago, what happened? >> So, 15 years ago, what happened was. uh so, this is a slightly complicated. story, okay? So, I thought, "Well, one. thing about dogs is they're kind of. designed animals and I'm really. interested in nature and I'm really. interested in evolution and what life.

really is and how it really works, right?" And dogs are sort of designed. Like, you want a little lap dog, you. make one. You want a You want a hunting. dog, you make one. You want a guard dog, you make one. All these different. breeds. You want something that's going. to go swim in the water and retrieve. things, you make one. So, I thought you. can't really learn much about nature and. real life, what it really is from dogs. Then two things happened. >> Because our culture has domesticated. dogs. >> Domesticated and just made them what we. want them to be like we make everything. Like, we make chairs the way we want.

chairs and cars the way we want cars. I. think we made these animals the way we. want them. >> Yeah. >> So, then what happened was kind of um. odd. First of all, we we had um we had a baby raccoon whose. mother had gotten hit by a car. They had a den in a tree in our yard. This emaciated baby raccoon. fell out of the tree. and we were raising this baby raccoon. and they're very, very playful. They're. bad pets. I don't recommend it. You need.

to know a lot about animal behavior to. be safe around raccoons. So, I don't. recommend it, but. they're fantastic animals and as soon as. this little thing got healthy and got to. the point where it was very playful, it. started to do the exact same play bow. that dogs do. Front paws down, rear end. up in the air inviting you to play and I. thought, "Whoa, that's not even a canid. That's the same behavior dogs do. That. means that these dogs have a lot of.

really ancient stuff still in them.". Oh, I better pay a lot more attention to. dogs. The same Oh, so that position. >> is a What do you call that position when. the paws are in front of the body? >> The play What I It's so ancient. that it predates even the canid lineage. Okay, then the canid lineage So, so. they're a carnivores, raccoons are one. among many and then there are canids. like foxes and coyotes and wolves and.

then there are dogs. Dogs' only. ancestors are wolves. >> Right. >> Right. Okay. So, this play bow predates. all of that. It's this ancient thing and. I realized, "Whoa, these these dogs. there's a lot of really genuine. authentic stuff still in there. I better. pay a lot more attention. >> to the dogs. >> been. >> Yes. Because I pay a lot of attention to. wild animals. >> Yes. >> Right, but I was paying I suddenly. >> yeah, you thought they were too. domesticated for you paying attention. to. >> So, then I went to Yellowstone cuz I was.

going to write about wolves. >> Wolves. >> And I see wolves. and what I realize is that wolves live. in nuclear families. What we call a. pack. It's mom and dad wolf. and their young ones of maybe the last. two or three years. After that, when. they get to be adolescents, late. adolescents, young adults, they leave to. go find their footing in the world, just. like our children are supposed to do, right? Like we did. So, the young wolves look to the mom and dad.

wolves. What are we doing next? What are. we doing now? Are we sleeping for the. next 6 hours? Are we going to go. hunting? Are we going to move over the. ridge to the next valley? Mom and dad, tell us what we're going to do now. The. young wolves are always looking to their. parents and they play, they wag their. tails, they do with each other so many. things that dogs do in our homes and in. our families. And so, what I realized is that what. dogs are really, they're wolves in.

arrested development. They never quite. become full adults to the stage where. they say, "I have to leave. I have to go find my own place in the. world.". >> Yes, cuz cuz they're dependent upon us. for food. >> So, they stay dependent on us. >> Yes. >> Whereas, if you raise other wild. animals, really wild animals, like that. raccoon for instance, or. >> you took in a wild wolf. >> Or or if you took in a wild wolf, or if. you raise wild cats, they get to adolescence. Before. adolescence, they're playful, they're.

friendly, they never hurt you, they. At adolescence, they get a little cranky. and they leave because they are geared. to go find their own life. And the dogs. never do that. They are wolves in. arrested development. That's my. conclusion from watching all this stuff. and thinking about it a lot for a lot of. years. >> Well, once you decided that they were. wolves in arrested development, is that. when you decided to get your own? >> Oh, no. I had had a couple of dogs that. I loved. And then, right around that.

time, a dog that we had had for a while passed. away. And we wound up getting, make a long. story short we wound up getting three. dogs. I I was like okay we can get. another dog and Patricia my wife said. okay well you can just say you you can. get another dog. I want two dogs. Okay. so we got two dogs. And then my very. beloved former editor had a little puppy. a miniature Australian Shepherd that had. the energy of a nuclear reactor as a. little puppy. >> Australian Shepherd.

>> they lived in a penthouse in Manhattan. and the dog was going literally out of. her mind. So one of the visits there. my editor's wife said to me Carl do you. want our dog? This dog is not doing well. here with us. And and I and I at first I. said well I don't know I have to ask. Patricia. So I called her on the on the. train. as I was going home. She said why don't. you just bring the dog? So now we have. that dog. That's Katie. She's fantastic. >> Well I want to bring in Dr. Gregory. Berns. He's a neuroscientist who spent a. decade studying the brains of dogs using.

groundbreaking MRI research. Welcome Dr. Berns. Hello. >> Hey there. Hi. Great to be here. >> You wrote a New York Times bestseller. called How Dogs Love Us. Tell us how you. were able to prove that our dogs love. us. >> Well I'm a neuroscientist and so I view. behavior and everything through the lens. of the brain. And so about 11 years ago. I started a project where we trained. dogs to go in MRI scanners awake.

unrestrained and just you know just a. thing that they did. And. >> I read that so can I stop you cuz. everybody's thinking the same thing I. was thinking when I first read it. How. do you get a dog to to to be in an MRI. machine? >> It was originally a project I didn't. know if it could be done. In fact. everyone I told thought this was a. ridiculous idea. >> Yeah. >> But I teamed up with a very good dog. trainer and we basically broke down the. whole process of going into an MRI for.

for a dog's perspective. And I built a. simulator that I kept in my basement. Uh. big tube. And just over the course of. many months, I slowly acclimated my dog. Callie to going in this tube. And then I. taught her how to put her head like in a. little chin rest. And we made little. earplugs because of course they're very. loud. And I started playing recordings. of the sound an MRI makes uh just in the.

background when we're playing and having. fun. And just put all these steps together. just very slowly and very gradually. And. it. essence just made a game out of it for. her. Cuz she doesn't know what an MRI is. >> Right. So what did you find out through. this process? >> So of course everyone wants to know if. their dog loves them. That was what I. wanted to know as well. Uh is it just. the treats? Is it some kind of bond that. they have uh beyond that?

>> Or yeah, or is it dependency? Is it Is. it like you know you can't get along. without me so you have to be nice to me? >> It could be. Yeah, it could be any of. those things because they can't speak to. us and tell us what they're thinking. So. So my idea was just well let's go look. in their brains because we know. essentially what their brain looks like. They have many of the same basic. structures that we do. And so we focused. on the reward parts of their brain. And. asked a very simple question. When we. show a dog a treat or the prospect of a.

treat, we're going to see activity. there. That's That's what Pavlov. discovered 100 years ago. But then the question is well what about. when there's no treat? What about when. just person is there? When their owner. is there and they just say good girl or. good boy. What does that do? And what we. found was for the majority of dogs, about three quarters of the dogs, it was. equal response to both of those things. The dogs valued that praise and just.

being around their person as much as. food. And for about a quarter of them, they actually valued it more, the. praise. >> Wow. And so, what is doing all this work. taught you about the significance of our. dogs in our lives? >> Well, I I agree with Dr. Sefina that. they. they evolved to be with us. They are our. first friends. They are the first. animals who in essence chose to be with. us. And so, they are very well suited to.

our lifestyles. They are. probably the most successful animal on. this planet besides humans because. there's roughly one dog for every 10. people on this planet. That's a lot of. dogs. And that speaks to their success. in kind of hitching their wagons to us. >> Yeah, which one to say, Dr. >> Another huge interesting thing about. that is that everywhere people have ever. gone, dogs have been there with them. So, we. seem to have valued their presence in.

our lives as much as they value our. presence. in theirs. They seem to be these. companions that we don't want to go. across the ocean in outrigger canoes. without dogs. We don't want to travel to. Australia 60,000 years ago without dogs. I mean, it's really unbelievable. The. Arctic. dogs are everywhere people have gone. >> That's fascinating. And are they are are dogs capable of.

other complex human emotions have you. discovered like jealousy or empathy or. guilt? >> So, we have done many experiments in. those realms. And probably I think the. one that. kind of stands out the most is we have. actually studied jealousy. So, we did an. experiment with the dogs that that were. trained for MRI. And we have their human. standing there right in front of them. And so, we did a test where the human. sometimes gave their dog a treat, and.

then other times they turned around and. put the food in a bucket behind them. And then, the third condition was they. gave the treat to a very. realistic-looking statue of a dog. So, we assumed that our subjects were. not terribly happy when they didn't get. their treat. But, what was interesting. is what's the difference between when. that treat goes to a bucket versus. another dog or something that looks like. a dog. So, we thought that that might. evoke some jealousy.

And what was interesting is that. for some of the dogs, it actually evoked. a response in an area of the brain. called the amygdala, which is associated. with arousal. It's like getting the. hackles up. Um, and they were clearly. bothered by it, even though. to outward appearances, they were doing. what they were taught. They stayed in. the scanner. They were just watching, but we could see something in the brain. that that did bother them. But, I think the important thing here is. not all the dogs were like that, only.

some of them. And when we looked at it more closely, these were the dogs who had histories of. aggressive behavior. Uh, they would fight with other dogs, especially over resources. My dog being one of them. Callie, even. though she was the first one to do this, um, I say she was the first, but not the. best. >> And now, your latest book is called cow. puppy. I love that title, cow puppy, about your herd of 10 miniature cows. So, what do you want us to know about. cows? Are they in any way like dogs?

>> They're a lot like dogs. So, 4 years. ago, I left the city, and my wife and I. moved to a farm to live the Green Acres. life, and found myself trying to manage. pastures, and acquired a bull and two. cows, who very quickly gave birth, and that three turned into five, which. then turned into 10. And I fell in love with them. I found. that they are as demonstrative as the. dogs that I have, if you know how to.

interpret their language. They're. extremely social, and following on what. uh Dr. Ball. >> or the calves are? Cuz I have a bunch of cows, and I don't. think of cows as being very similar to. dogs. I asked that question, but I don't. think of them as being very similar at. all. >> I have seen very similar behaviors that. my cows have uh like the dogs. So, they. have play bows, too, especially the. calves. They They will kind of go down. and and put their front legs down and. and put their butt up in the air when.

they want to play, and they even wag. their tails. And. uh they're extremely affectionate with. each other, and once they accept you. into the herd, they treat you the same way. They lick. me. They, you know, they'll lie down and. just cuddle up to me. And there's no treats involved, because. all I do is manage the pastures. >> Wow. >> Yeah, that's just that's really. interesting. And I I think if you. if you give almost anything a chance to.

show you. how relational they're capable of being, you will be astonished as I have been. astonished at. the world that we are surrounded by with. all these things that we think are just. scenery. Oh, bird flitting by, uh a rabbit in the bushes, that these. these creatures actually have lives. They have their own relationships. They're capable of showing you that, but. we are almost never in a situation.

where we can see it, or we're even open. to seeing it. And the the big exception is our dogs, or maybe our cats in our in our homes. And most people don't get. contact with any of these other lives. And and any of their their minds, their. emotional systems, which have. a lot more in common than they differ. >> Thank you, Dr. Burns. So fascinating. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you.

Do you ever look into your dog's eyes. and wonder what's going on in there? That's exactly what my guest, Carl. Safina, is inviting us to do. To open. our minds to the phenomenal capabilities. and capacities of the animal mind. We heard from one of our listeners, Gabby, a mother of two in Pennsylvania. She was a part of a group that rescued. 35 dogs left homeless after Hurricane. Helene struck the East Coast in 2024. Gabby adopted one of those dogs, a shy.

boy named Rusty, who less than 2 weeks. after joining the family, showed Gabby. what Carl sees as a dog's true nature. Watchful, fiercely protective, intuitive. >> Hi. Yes, first of all, I am so nervous. and awestruck. Thank you for having me. I grew up watching you with my mom in. the afternoons. Um. So, you know, fast forward 11-ish days. later,

um Rusty's come home. He's starting to. acclimate. We definitely were mindful of. giving him that space. And um. Rusty was in the room with us and I just. I I don't know how long I had been. asleep, but I just remember waking up. because he was barking and this dog had. not made a noise the whole time we had. had him so far. And Wesley at the time. was 6 months old and Michael was 21. months old. And so, I got up and I was. like, you know what, Rusty, like, stop. But then he started gnawing at my sleeve.

on my sweatshirt that I was wearing. So, I opened my door. Um Um, I still get. chills kind of thinking about it, but my. house was filled with black smoke. And. um, you know, at the time I just I I didn't. know what was going to happen. I just. remember kind of like going into the. things that I did know cuz my husband is. a firefighter and has been a volunteer. firefighter for 20 plus years. So, I knew I needed to stay low. I knew. I needed to grab my boys and also get. the dogs out. So, Rusty and my other dog.

Arya that was in the bedroom came down. the steps with me. I couldn't see. anything. um, because it was just such a thick. layer of smoke in the house, but I got. them outside. I got with the boys. I put. them safely in their car seats in my car. that happened to be parked out front, but then I realized that my other dogs. were still inside. And so, I know that. they I know what they say and my husband. scolded me for it, I promise, but um, to. not go back in, but I went back in cuz I. was not going to leave my dogs behind.

um, because they're my family. And so, I. went back in, you know, the the thick of. the smoke. My Dalmatian who you would. think would be the most equipped to. handle a situation like this um, proceeded to roll over and fall back to. sleep as I'm trying to drag her out of. the house. In that process, I located the fire. There was a fire extinguisher in our. kitchen and I was able to put it out. very quickly. And evidently what had. happened was a electrical outlet burst. And that spark caught a cereal box,

which then caught on fire, which then. fell into a pot or at least that's what. we've surmised from um, you know, the. investigations afterwards. Um, so my. husband also. >> your smoke detectors? What happened with. the smoke detectors? >> That's a good question, right? So, we, you know, test our smoke detectors. Daylight Savings twice a year. We we do. all those things um, you know, for very. fire prevention minded um, just. naturally and they failed. They didn't. go off. >> Wow. >> Yikes.

>> But Rusty, it sensed the smoke in the. house and that there was something going. on and was was trying to get you out. Yes. >> Yes, and I mean we were new to him, he. was new to us, but the fact that he was. willing to do whatever it took to make. sure that we got out of that house. I. mean and it means absolutely everything. to us and you know, quite frankly, if. Rusty hadn't have been there cuz. evidently my other dogs could have cared. less, I'm not sure where we would be. right now, which is hard to think about. because.

the 6-month-old baby and a 21-month-old, I mean my own life. put aside, like I just. I can't imagine what that would have. looked like. So we're very grateful to. him. So yeah. >> that you said cared less. I don't know. if it's cared less or that that dog had. a sensitivity that the other dogs did. not. What do you say, Gabby? >> Well, apparently that's the case, but. I think, you know, Rusty was probably. wondering, "I'm alerting you to. something really serious and dangerous. You won't believe me." A lot of times. when dogs are trying to alert people, we.

don't give them the credit of saying, "Oh, what's wrong? Let me get up and. check it out, right?" We try to dismiss. it because we don't give them the credit. that they deserve even though we love. them, they're part of our family, but. but our expectations of them don't. really match their capabilities, I. think. >> That's right, because you're so readily. willing to dismiss them when they're. obviously trying to. show you something or speak to you in a. way that. communicates danger or communicates. alarm. Yes. Gabby, thank you so much for sharing.

that story. Thank you so much. And. Rusty, we couldn't see you, but thank. you, Rusty. Amanda and her son Gabriel. are joining us on Zoom. Amanda, tell us. what happened with your dog Axel. >> Yes, so um thank you for having us. It's. an honor to be here. And so my son. Gabriel, he uh he had a stroke at 17 and. going into his senior year. of high school. And on. uh Saturday morning, um Axel, our dog,

woke me up at around. 5:00 in the morning, and he he wasn't. very gentle about it, you know, he he. went uh on top of the bed um in in our. room, both paws on my chest, really. intense on waking me up. I figured, you. know, the dog wanted to be let out, so. my husband went downstairs, my son's. room was downstairs, and my husband. walked to the back to open the sliding. door and let Axel out, and he didn't. follow. He stopped in front of my son's.

door. Little did we know, um my son was. already actively having a stroke, had. fallen before that, um while we were. upstairs sleeping. Um I don't know if Axel saw it, if he. was present or not, but he knew he knew. to somehow he knew to go upstairs, wake. us up, bring us downstairs to encounter. Gabriel, and stopped in front of. Gabriel's room, and Gabriel came out. He. was slurring, he was already, you know, actively in this um stroke. I mean, a. teenage boy, uh you know, we would never.

have gone into his room until possibly. noon, 1:00 p.m. I mean, he. >> Cuz teenagers sleep. Yes. Yes. >> Exactly. And so, you know, it was um it. later we we found out from from doctors. how. significant and important it was that. Axel queued us to go see Gabriel, because had it been 5 hours before we. got him to the hospital, he could have. been paralyzed forever or worse. >> Gabriel, what do you want to say?

>> I don't know where I would have been if. it wasn't like as fast as it was, but. like hearing that if it wasn't. as fast as it was, that I would have not. even recovered as as well as I have, is. just it was terrifying. >> Yeah. And I I was wondering, how do you. not give Axel every treat. that. How do you not. succumb to everything cuz like Axel, you.

saved my life, so you can have anything. you want now for him now on, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Well, he's sitting right here, next to. me. Um he's just kind of laying down. Yeah, I don't I don't know. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There he is. >> Wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Wow. That's a beautiful dog. Beautiful. dog. What kind of dog? >> Um he's a Border Collie Collie mix, so. >> Uh-huh. Border Collies are so smart anyway. >> so smart. But look at the love in in. just right there. You can just see it. >> mean. >> What do you make What do you make of. this dog? >> Well, look, I mean, here here are here.

is just these two. we think of them as different species, right? People and dogs. And And yet. the pleasure of that touch is so mutual. And dogs understand when things are. normal and when things are out of the. ordinary. And they understand distress. They show that all the time, you know. >> So, that makes sense to you that Axel. would have sensed something was off with. Gabriel and would have. >> Yeah, but but the strange thing is I. mean, was your door closed?

>> Was your door closed in the room? The. door was closed, okay. >> Yeah, I went I went to my room and I. closed the door and just go to sleep cuz. that's just normal. And that's whenever. uh my dad came down with Axel and that's. whenever Axel just like he stopped at my. door and he just wouldn't wouldn't. leave. >> Yeah. >> So, Oprah, this So, there's another. thing in there. that is a thing called object. permanence. And psychologists forever. said only humans have object permanence.

The idea that when you don't see. something, it still exists. Well, obviously, these dogs know who they are. They know who we are. They know where. they are. They understand their lives. They understand who is in their lives. We are in their lives. So, this this dog. saw their person in trouble have a fall. He goes, he closes the door. The dog. still knows he's in there in trouble and. goes to get help. >> Wow. We've heard this a lot though. Are our. dogs able to sense strokes more so than.

I don't know. >> Well, there there are some illness, you. know, there are dogs that are trained to. alert about seizures and things like. that. And apparently there are even. chemical cues that the body gives off. that dogs can smell about oncoming. seizures. Different than this, right? But. but other kinds of cues because they. they're they're they're like. superheroes, right? Their their smell is. way better than ours. Their hearing is. way better than ours. So in a way their. world is a lot more vivid to them than.

our world is to us. >> World is vivid. Thanks, Gabriel. Thanks, Amanda. Thank you and good dog, Axel. Good dog. Thanks for sharing that. Thank. you. We have one more person joining us on. Zoom. Joining us from Maryland, Kristina. who started online community called. Black Women Love Dogs with over 35,000. followers on Instagram. Tell us the. story behind that. >> Yes. Hello, Oprah. Thank you so much for. giving me the opportunity to talk about. my community.

Like you said, I'm originally from. Maryland. I grew up here with a single. mother. and I would ask my mom for a dog. consistently. I didn't realize, of. course, the reason that she kept saying. no was because she just couldn't afford. it. She had to take care of me. So, after I graduated from my HBCU, I. said, "You know what? I'm going to go. ahead and do my lifelong dream of having. a dog and being a dog mom." And so, I. actually adopted my dog, my first baby,

Kona. And after I adopted her, I started. looking for a community. I wanted to be. able to speak to people about everything. dealing with dog ownership. I noticed. that a lot of the communities, there. weren't a lot of people that looked like. me. I was like, "You know what? I just want to see if I can build my own. community. My mom always taught me, if. there isn't something there for you, create it. Why don't you do it?" And it. just so happened to grow into such a. beautiful community. Now we do so many.

different in-person events where we're. able to meet up with so many different. black dog moms. We're able to do. giveaways. Uh last year we just awarded our first. scholarship to a future black. veterinarian. >> What do you want to say about your. special bond with your dog? How has it. changed you? >> For sure. So, recently I actually just. moved to Houston, Texas, and me and my. dog are the only ones there. I don't. have any family or friends, and it can. be really isolating uh to be alone. And.

so, one of the things that happened when. I was in a position where I was just in. a somber mood one day, she just came to. me and she literally just rested her uh. paw on my shoulder, and I just we just. looked at each other, and I just started. bawling with tears because. I just felt like she just knew in that. moment what I needed was her comfort and. her support. Um she's always there to. make sure that I feel at peace. I always. tell people that, no matter what, if Con.

is there, I'm good. I'm going to be at. peace. I can do anything. >> I love that handle, too. Black Women. Love Dogs. Thank you so much, Christina. Good luck with it. >> much. >> Good luck. Good luck with it. So, this is what I want to know. How did. you get interested in you you you we we. we started the conversation about. as a young boy, you were interested in. nature, you were paying attention, you. saw that there was a deep awareness for.

you. >> Yeah. And actually, that started really. with animals that were not wild animals. My father bred canaries as a hobby. >> Yeah. >> And as a 7-year-old, I demanded that I. had to have my own flock of homing. pigeons. And so, my father very generously complied with. my request, and I had my own flock of. homing pigeons. From the time I was 7, 8, 9, 10. When. you're a little boy like that, you have plenty of time.

to be with these kinds of creatures. I. would I go in the coop, I'd watch their. lives, I'd watch them in the the stack. of fruit boxes that we had where they. would build their nests. >> Mhm. >> And I'd watch them decide who they were. going to marry, and sometimes they had. squabbles and jealousy. We'd let them. out every day, they'd fly around, they'd. come back, feed their babies, and go to. sleep. Across the yard, we lived in our own. stack of boxes in our apartment building.

where people figured out who they were. going to marry, they sometimes had their. squabbles, the adults left during the. day, they came home, fed their babies, and went to sleep. And I realized right. from the start, before I was taught, "Oh, no." I realized that their lives. are really in broad strokes, we're all. the same. We're all one life. >> You were able to connect that. >> Yeah. >> at a young age. >> the natural thing to see. And that's. really why all all indigenous people, despite the tremendous cultural.

differences, their sense of our. relationship among other living things. is that we are all family. That idea. only got into Western culture with. Charles Darwin. And, you know, and a lot. of people still don't accept that, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That we are all family. >> That is powerful. That is powerful. Don't you say that I I can't remember. the number of how the percentage of. birds left on the planet are all.

chickens now. >> Yeah, uh something like 80% of all the birds. in the world. are. >> chickens. >> chickens and a few ducks and a few. turkeys that we raise. >> Right. >> And we we raise them to pen them and. kill them. >> Right. >> Right? That's then that's our That's our. main relationship. >> of cows and pigs are the are the are the. mammals. >> Of of mammals. humans, cows and pigs are 96%.

of all the mammals on Earth now. And. that of course is a radical difference. from what it was, you know, 500 years. ago and. >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah. >> Because we feel like we are more. powerful than they are. And there's no. sense for. the fact that we're all a part of one. >> Right. And just just the respect that, you know, it like it shows this hubris. that we have shows in the fact that the. world is being unbalanced by us. We we. have this extreme weather. We we have.

the climate disruption. We have the. deforestation. We have the decline since I was in 15. years old in high school the average. population of of wild animals. has declined 70% 70%. since I was in high school. If we're so. powerful and we're so smart, why aren't. we taking care of the miracle of the. world that made us and maintains us? >> Cuz we don't get it.

>> I'm afraid we don't. >> we don't. Could you speak too cuz you. were talking about I think the. Australian Shepherd that you took into. your home, the Australian Shepherd that. was losing its mind in the apartment. Yeah. And often I see people. I know I'm going to get complaints about. it, but in New York City with these huge. dogs. >> Right. >> in little apartments and I feel for that. dog. >> That's why I was saying that I didn't. really like dogs cuz being around them. was often so uncomfortable because the.

the dog and the situation were so badly. matched. And that was the case with. little. >> Shouldn't people consider that though. when they're getting a dog? You should. consider what's good for you but also. what's going to be good for the dog. >> What is the What is this breed's energy. level? >> Shepherd wants to herd. They don't They. have no business being up in an. apartment. >> Right. Exactly. Exactly. But she She. came with us. It took a few months for. her to adjust. I remember the first time. we brought her to the beach with our.

other two dogs. We immediately just. They're all always loose at the beach. Always off leash. And she's looking. around. She was with us like 2 days at. that point. So we start walking down the. beach and she's like, "Oh, well, that's. my family down there. Okay, I better. keep up with them." And there were other. people other dogs. She knew right away. that. we it was mainly us she was supposed to. key into, right? And then this was. really really interesting. She ran way. way down the beach, ran after something.

And I said, "Okay, let's let's just turn. around. and. see what happens and and let's show her. that, you know, we when we go this way, you need to know, right? So we go and. and always our other two dogs, they. immediately turn around with us cuz. that's the routine. Well, Jude, he would have none of this and none of. leaving that new puppy out there. He. laid down with his butt to us and he. just waited and watched for her. And. when she caught up to where he was lying.

down, he got up and he he turned around. Yeah. >> And that happened almost immediately. after. >> Yeah, al- almost almost immediately. Yeah. >> Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. So, what can you. finally. tell us? [clears throat] What is beyond. words? What is the energy that is beyond words. when it comes to animals and the way. they think and feel. >> People have explicitly said that humans. can only think because we have language. >> Yeah. >> And this is simply not the case. There.

is so much that is beyond words. There. is so much understanding. There is so. much bonding. There is so much emotion. There is so much understanding of who we. are and where we are and who we are. because of who we're with. That does not. have words to it. We have kind of lost. track of that. >> Yeah. >> When you go to your house, you don't. say, "Oh, this is my house. Oh, that is.

my refrigerator. Oh, that is my spouse.". The The recognition is instant and. that's that's our animal recognition of. who we are and that's what the world is. filled with. It's filled with this kind. of recognition and understanding. And. we just don't know. >> Wow. Thank you. >> Oprah, thank you so much. This has been. a thrill. >> Oh, so delighted that you could come all. this way. >> Very well worth it. >> Carl's nonprofit is called the Safina.

Center and their mission is to advance. the case for all life on Earth by. bringing together scientific. understanding, emotional connection, and. a moral call to action. You can learn. more at safinacenter.org. I thank you, Dr. Gregory Berns. Dr. Berns' book is How Dogs Love Us and Carl. Safina and Carl's books including Beyond. Words, which I love so much, and Alfie. and Me are all available now wherever. you get your books. Thank you, Amanda, and thank you, Gabriel, Gabby, and. Christina for zooming with us. And a.

special thank you to all the dogs. All. the dogs. Thank you all for listening. and watching. See you next week. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast. on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.