Discover AWE Daily with Oprah and Dacher Keltner

I love how you begin the book, your. introduction. This is funny to me. You. said, "I have taught happiness to. hundreds of thousands of people around. the world. It's not obvious why I ended. up doing this work. I've been a pretty. wound up anxious person for significant. chunks of my life." And I love this. And. was thrown out of my first meditation. class for laughing while we chanted, "I. am a being of purple fire.". When I read that, I was like, >> "What kind of meditation class was that? I'm a being of purple fire.".

>> Yep. My best friend memo and I got. tossed out of that class in college. Yeah. You know, and and that's the. point, you know, I struggle to meditate. I am wound up. I can't. That's just what. I got, you know, in my nervous system. And awe really, as I wrote this book in. a very hard time in my life, I was like, "Yeah, this that's what grounded me in. life.". Hi everybody and welcome to the Oprah. podcast. I'm so pleased, honored. actually that you chose to spend time.

with us here where our my intention is. to offer some inspiration and maybe a. bit of breathing space from the hustle. of your day or from the endless barrage. of news hitting your timeline. Uh hope. you all are watching that being careful. about that cuz it can just be too much. But I'm excited for you to hear from my. guest today because he spent decades. studying, searching, researching for the. secret to this question. How can we live.

a good life? Yeah, that's really what we. all are in search of, right? How can we. live a good life? And he says the answer. is really simple and something any one. of us can access at any time and. anywhere, no matter your background, no. matter your circumstances. His name is. Decker Kelner and he's a professor of. psychology at the University of. California, Berkeley, and the host of. the award-winning podcast, The Science. of Happiness. I didn't even know there.

was such a podcast until researching for. this. And I just recently read his. best-selling book, Awe, the New Science. of Everyday Wonder, and how it can. transform your life. Now I read it and. thought this man is speaking my language. and that's why he's now here in the tea. house. Der Kelner. Hello. >> Hello Oprah. It's nice to be with you. >> Nice to be an honor. >> Thank you. When you first started on. this path, I think you found there. wasn't even a real definition of awe. So.

what is awe? Let's start with letting. everybody know what we're actually. talking about. >> Yeah, that's actually a tough question, right? People trying to define the sense. of the mystical and the sublime and. >> and the word awesome is thrown around as. a. >> a little too much these days. Yeah. So. awe is an emotion you feel when you. encounter vast things most typically. giant redwoods, right? A vast piece of. music. Uh somebody who really inspires.

you with their the size of their. character. >> and then it's mysterious to you. you. don't quite understand it immediately. and it provokes you to wonder. So very. simply, awe is when we encounter vast. mysteries. >> Awe and wonder are the same thing. >> No, I philosophers pull awe and wonder. apart. Awe is an emotion you feel. I see. an incredible tree or a sunset. And then. wonder is the cognitive state after. >> awe. >> by which I try to make sense of things. Right. >> Right. One of my favorite examples is. Newton and Decart were these famous.

scientists and philosophers and they. were aruck by rainbows. >> You know how how do rainbows exist? And. then in a state of wonder, they figured. it out. They did math and color theory. and figured out how when light bends. through water, it produces a rainbow. >> Ah, so awe and wonder obviously are not the. same. Wonder is what comes after the awe. moment, >> right? >> Okay. and tell us why I as you do in the.

book but most people who are listening. to us now probably haven't read a. >> so tell us why it matters. >> well when you look at our world Oprah. and you see the crises of mind you know. depression and anxiety at historic highs. >> body a lot of people are suffering pain. >> and community you know our surgeon. general former surgeon general Vivc. Murthy. >> whom you know well the the crisis of. loneliness. >> Loneliness. >> A minute of a day helps us with those.

crises. It makes you feel less depressed. and more happy. It helps your body. physically. >> Uhhuh. >> And it it even if you experience awe by. yourself with music or nature, you feel. connected to community. And so it, you. know, when I started to look at these. scientific findings and thinking about. our crises, our shared crises, I was. like, you know, there's almost nothing. better than a couple minutes of awe a. day. >> Yes. And nothing is better also than. shared awe which you call.

>> collective effrovescence. >> Collective effrovescence. And a lot of. people who are listening and watching us. right now, you all have experienced. this. >> Yeah. You know, I I I remember having a. gospel brunch here on the lawn many. years ago and I had Glattis Knight and. Dion Warick and Mariah Carey and all all. of them were here and someone was. passing the mic and literally everybody. in the audience all of us were in.

collective effervescence. We had never. seen anything like it or experienced. anything like it. And it was like the. spirit came in to each of them and then. entered us. It was spectacular. But lots. of people experience this in sports. sporting events. >> Yeah. >> Concerts. >> Yeah. >> I remember just just uh recently this. past year uh I went to see um Gypsy with. Audrey McDonald. >> Uhhuh. >> And that performance of hers was out. I. just started weeping now. was out of.

body. >> Yeah. >> Was an outof body experience. >> and so was Nicole in Sunset Boulevard. >> Out of body. So you you were just amazed. that a human being can do that. I was. like I literally afterwards wrote both. of them a letter saying to see somebody. vibrating at the at their highest level. possible which is no that it doesn't get. any higher than that. >> Yeah. >> Brings awe to you. >> It does. And and it's just remarkable. And I love your descriptions of it,

Oprah. I mean, music's a classic example. of gospel music as good as any, right? And it it astounds me and it speaks to. how ready we are to experience awe, which is you can go hear music that. means a lot to you. >> And within a millisecond, you are having. goosebumps. You're tearing up. You're. synchronizing with other people. >> And it is an outof body experience. You. leave the self. >> Yeah. >> And become part of this collective. and. you're hugging each other and crying and. >> proposing camping trips, you know,

>> that's the collective effervescence you. talked about. Well, in awe, one of the. things uh the new science of everyday. wonder and how it can transform your. life. One of the things you did was you. asked over 2,000 people Yeah. >> from all over the world, different. faiths, different backgrounds, different. life situations, different educations, and you asked them, "What is an. experience of awe that you've had when. you encountered the a vast mystery?" um. that transcends your world. I'm asking. that of you all now. For you it was I.

mean. what most people wouldn't consider an. awesome moment, but for you it was the. death of your younger brother. >> Yeah. >> Can you tell us that story? >> Yeah. You know, uh I was lucky to be. raised by parents who really cultivated. a sense of wonder. You know, Rachel. Carson, the great environmentalist, teach your child to wonder. And uh I had. a younger brother Ralph who was a.

companion in awe and we you know we grew. up listening to music in the late60s in. Laurel Canyon and wandering the. foothills of the Sierras and we did all. of the awe inspiring things in life. together. And when he passed away first. uh it it was at grief it was pure grief. and panic and anxiety and and the moment. of his passing was all inspiring. It. was, you know, seeing something. transcendent about his bo, something. there in his spirit, seeing the space.

around him as he was leaving reveal new. dimensions out there. I'm a scientist, you know, I didn't know what to make of. this. I had no religious background. >> And then the big question, which is how. is he going to stay with me? >> And through grief, I heard his voice. I. felt his hand on my back. He was saying. things to me. And he he changed how I. look at the universe. that there are. other dimensions. >> that we don't understand. Uh that beings. who leave us can be with us forever. Uh.

and that there's a cycle to life and. that's one of the wonders of life is the. extraordinary miracle of life is its. beginning, its growth and its ending and. that it repeats itself. That's just a. law of the universe was the first time I. understood that when I had to see my. brother die. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And you said that after your. brother's death that you lost your. ability for a while to experience awe. >> Yeah. >> Why? From the grief. >> Yeah. I I mean grief.

>> you shut down. >> Yeah. Grief is panic and breathlessness. and waking up at all hours and grasping. for who was gone. My brother and I. shared a narrative about life. I. couldn't hear his voice that I heard all. the time. And it was strange. Oprah, here I was studying this emotion, giving. it to people, and I just couldn't feel. it, you know. >> So, how did you get it back? >> I I very intentionally said, you know, I'm going to go in search of the wonders. of life. I'm going to find some moral. beauty. I'm going to fi be out in.

nature. I'm going to listen to music. that I don't understand, like classical. music, or I'm going to think about uh. the big ideas that matter to me. And so. it took a while but it it changed my. life. >> And it so I I like the idea of people. understanding that there is awe in the. everyday. >> Yeah. >> So are you one of those people who as a. scientist you've written the book and. then do you actually practice it? >> Yes.

>> Do you find awe in your everyday? >> Yeah. I you know I think one of the most. important findings from our research is. people think awe is mysterious. It takes. a lot of money. You got to travel. somewhere to find it. And that's just. not true around the world. People feel. awe a few times a week. And in those. stories we gathered from 26 countries. It was it was right around them. You. know, and Einstein said awe is a basic. state of the mind that we can f access. any time. And so I make it a practice to.

find on a daily basis. >> You say there are eight experiences that. inspire people to feel awe. You call. them actually the eight wonders in life. People may be surprised to learn what. the most common reason for awe is. I. know y'all are going to be surprised by. this. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, you know, um. >> I'm not because I experienced it every. day, 25 years of doing a show and seeing. it happen.

>> Yeah. You have a career that that. cultivates. >> moral beauty. Um, and when we got these. stories rolling in from Indonesia and. China and Mexico and other countries, the most common source and and most. universal is what we call moral beauty, which is when you are moved by the. courage and kindness, sense of justice. and humility of other people. And it is, you know, people start writing about, oh. yeah, my my grandmother or my my. teacher, you know, often teachers, uh,

this nurse who helped me with pain, my. mother, my father, etc. And the stories. are astonishing, you know, of of. encountering a fellow human, stands up. to injustice, uh, or gives away some. resources or is courageous facing. I. remember watching the news and seeing a. young burly black guy standing out in. the middle of water and this was either. a flood in Houston or flood in Dallas. I. can't remember which flood it was. But. he'd been out there all day just, you.

know, handing down sandbags. And I. remember him, you know, looking. exhausted but exuberant. Yeah. >> And him saying, "This is what Texans. do.". >> Wow. >> This is what Texans do. And my eyes. watered when I when I when I saw it. because I just thought, "Wow, you know, he's tired. He's got his own family, but. he's out there and this is what Texans. do." So, seeing someone do something. extraordinary for somebody else. >> Yeah. I remember years ago there was a. Maxwell House coffee commercial around.

Christmas time and there was an elderly. lady and the young woman next door goes. and takes a Christmas tree and they put. the ornaments on the Christmas tree. together and then have a cup of Maxwell. House coffee and at the end of it I'm. like. that's commercial moral beauty, right? >> Yeah. But the idea of sharing what you. have with someone who doesn't. >> It is. But but it's just remarkable to. me that you can see a stranger helping.

another person in the streets. You don't. know any of these people and you're. tearing up, right? You can hear a story. from another country about the courage. of a a woman facing a disease and it can. change your life, right? And that. >> is a mystery for me scientifically. How. why is it that that's so powerful? But. it definitely is the universal source of. all. >> So that is the number one. It is. >> wonder of life is people experiencing. other people doing extraordinary awesome. things. >> Yes. And you call that moral beauty.

>> Yeah. >> I love that. >> Yeah. And and because it evokes this. this feeling like you said of tearing up. and it's almost like you're hearing a. phenomenal piece of music. >> Humans seem beautiful. They seem. transcendent, right? They're not part of. the mundane world anymore. So it has. this beauty quality to it that we've. been interested in for a long time. >> So what are the other seven? We talked. about number two which is uh collective. effervescence right that's being in the. that's everybody in the football game. and the your team and feeling that that.

>> yeah or the gospel concert. >> or the gospel concert or wherever the. collective effervescence. >> and the third is nature. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk about that. >> Yeah. I I mean you know the the science. is a great place to begin. Uh people. know nature is awesome, you know, from. oceans to clouds to redwood trees to. flowers to spring to the sounds of. birds. And the science is astonishing, which is that we're we're now learning. that we are wired to be inspired and.

moved by nature. You know, if I hear. running water, it activates parts of my. heart, right, that calm me down. If I. hear bird song, parts of the brain light. up that feel rewarding. If I smell. certain scents. >> like the trees around here, >> that activates specific chemical. processes in your brain that make you. feel. >> part of something larger, the ecosystem. >> Yeah. And isn't that the whole idea. of every awesome experience.

>> is that it takes you out of your ego. self. >> Yeah. >> And allows you to feel that you are a. part of something bigger than your small. self. >> And and that took us 10 years to figure. out. And you just put it in one. sentence. So, thanks a lot. But you know. it. Yeah. Time and time again, we. started to realize that moments of awe. and nature, moral beauty, music, etc. that nagging voice of the ego quiets. down. Your to-do list and your sense of. status and what it just quiets down. In.

fact, the brain regions. >> of the ego quiet down. >> Right. And importantly what you said. which is you become more aware of how. you're connected to larger things than. you. Be it a musical tradition, gospel. music, uh a social cause, the. environment around you, the garden, >> that's really what's going on. >> That is what's going on. And. >> and that even in that collective. effervescence, what you're really. feeling is that you're a part of. something that's bigger than you.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's profound. >> And it's profound. >> and needed. >> The fourth is music. >> Yep. We talked about that. Fifth is. visual design. I thought that was. interesting. Like great architecture or. paintings. >> Yeah. I mean, you think about the, you. know, the Islamic tile patterns or the. messoamerican. basket weaving and sculptures and and. temples and and our minds are wired to. detect these sacred geometries of the. visual world.

>> even though we don't even know that's. what we're detecting. >> Yeah. you know, but you feel struck by. the facade of a cathedral or some. painting. I was lucky to be raised by a. painter, my dad, who got me looking at. paintings early in life and they changed. my life. They And so, yeah, we the. visual world is a very rich realm of awe. to explore. >> And then spiritual or religious. experiences. >> Yeah. And it's important because you. know in this complicated time in. American history, spirit and religion.

can divide. And in some sense, as. William James argued, underlying that is. this feeling of the divine or mystical. experience. >> 81% of Americans feel a sense of the. divine. Half of those people find it in. nature. >> And awe is the emotion that tracks that. relationship to spirit and the divine. one of the many sort of transcendent. emotions like. >> stories also of life and death. Number. seven, >> yeah,

>> tell us about that. >> Yeah, you know, we started getting. stories around the world watching uh. children be born, infants be born, grandmothers, parents, friends, relatives, you just see life come in, the life cycle begins. Uh likewise, you. could now think about, you know, why are. people aruck by spring, right? Because. it's this maximum moment of life in. nature. It's like everything is. blooming, >> booming in blooming. Yes. Coming forth, >> right? Life. Yeah. But life, it's a.

law-like pattern. It it ends. And I. remember Oprah um when I started to talk. publicly about the science before the. book. I remember very clearly this uh I. was just asking this group like when. have you felt awe and this woman raises. her hand and she said I was holding my. sister's hand as she had her last breath. in life and I was aruck by her be place. in my life that things like this end she. continues like I felt with my brother. Ralph and so the life cycle is a very.

underappreciated but reliable source of. all. >> well also that brings us to number eight. which is uh epiphies or suddenly. understanding the essential truths about. life. Yeah. >> Which is what happened to you also with. your brother in in that space right when. he was dying. >> Yeah. It it you know and and people feel. awe about these big ideas you know AI. quantum physics you know evolution etc.

And for me the challenge of my brother's. passing. not only concretely to live a life. without my companion my brother. >> was to understand what life means you. know which is it is a cycle um for us. physically and we we all have to lose. people um you know Buddhism the first. noble truth is we we grasp that. suffering and things continue and they. go onward and we grow uh and we learn.

and for me I had to grasp that we're not. just cells and neurons and bodies that. we're more um out of the experience and. that and I feel that to this day that. you know I feel my brother's with me uh. and that there's something beyond what I. thought was all that there is to to. nature. >> This has to be physically good actually. physically good for us too. I mean, I. would think your blood pressure goes. down your and all the other things in.

your body that need to mellow out and. chill. >> Yeah. >> When you're experiencing if you've had. an awesome moment. >> or an awefilled moment that it would. change your neurosystem. >> I even felt it when you were describing. this gospel concert. I started to feel. my body change and and we've made a lot. of progress in understanding that. And. what we know, you know, is a couple. minutes of awe um reduces uh physical. pain. It reduces long COVID symptoms. It.

benefits your heart by activating what's. called the vagus nerve, this big bundle. of nerves in your chest that calms your. body down. Like you said, it reduces. inflammation in the body. The immune. system heats up your body to kill. pathogens. If you feel chronically threatened by. poverty or racism or misogyny and your. your body will be heated up, inflamed, it's a very troubling condition for your. health. Awe cools down that system. I I.

mean it's amazing and and so it makes me. bullish in in promoting this to medical. doctor. >> And how is it different than gratitude? Because I've had a gratitude practice uh. for decades now where I do five things. I have volumes of gratitude journals. I'm constantly always, even when I'm. just walking around, you know, my. property here in a state of gratitude, appreciation, uh, reverence. Yeah.

>> But awe is something different. >> It is. And we call these these. self-trcendent emotions where you get. out of the self and really appreciate. what's around you. Reverence, like you. said, >> very much love that word. Gratitude is. is really not as mysterious as awe. >> Yeah. >> And it's really about more concrete. things in your world. >> Yeah. That you appreciate, >> right? That you appreciate. Awe is. fundamentally about something vast that. you don't understand. It's mysterious.

>> So, I mean, after reading your book, Awe, I was thinking differently about, you know, my everyday experiences. And. one of the experiences that I've shared. with you all here before that I still. love and I still think it's an a and I. was the other day is this an awe moment. or is this a gratitude moment? What is. it that moment where you're on the. plane? You probably experienced it. because you couldn't get in at first. because of fog. But there's that moment. that no matter how rainy, dreary, miserable it is. You shoot through the. clouds and you're up above the clouds.

>> Oh yeah. >> And you're looking down through the. clouds. >> Yeah. >> I am in awe every time that happens. Yeah. >> I'm just like, how am I up here? >> And that's all, right? Suddenly you're. like, this is vast. >> I used to be on the earth and now it's. I'm in space. >> Yeah. And now I'm here. >> Yeah. And it's how did this happen? How. do planes work? You know, >> and it's so beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And that's a and and you know. that's just a classic experience of all. which is you suddenly encounter. something vast and you can't the your.

ordinary mind if you will you know just. making sense of our daily lives can make. sense of it and I feel that about flying. too just you know um appreciating the. earth from 30,000 ft. >> Yeah. And I have you one of my I've had. 21 dogs and now Satie is uh about to. she's going to turn 17 and the other day. we were walking her and she has trouble. getting down the stairs sometimes. Right. So now I carry her down the. stairs. >> and then we were out on the yard and she.

just started. >> canering like running. >> Yeah. >> And I stood there I think I was in awe. like how is she doing that when you. can't walk down the stairs? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I think that you know it's. almost like moral beauty, right? Which. is we marvel at the the exceptional. qualities of other life forms around us. Yeah. >> And so you're sensing something a spirit. in her, a transcendent spirit, which. >> something came over her and she just.

decided I'm going to run across this. yard. >> A. >> Yeah. You talked about in in in awe you. talked about these fractious times. I. mean. >> Yeah. Oo, politically, socially, culturally, how do you think. awe or if it can be a bridge. >> Yeah. >> to help heal divisions? Is that. possible? >> Yeah, I I I do. I mean, you know, I'm. always worried about structural things, racism, misogyny, inequality, but um but.

I do feel that the and we have empirical. data for this that feelings of awe. socially make you appreciate your shared. humanity. Um and they make you aware of. the bigger thing that you're part of, right? uh and uh our study found that people on. opposite sides of the issues of police. brutality and abortion once they felt. awe they didn't demonize or dehumanize.

their opponents right they saw the. humanity in them. >> and you know Oprah when you think about. um there are uh sources of awe uh that. unite people uh in this country 330. million people go to the national parks. it is unlike anything. Uh and and they. are really. >> they're environmentalists, they're. radicals, they're hunters, they're, >> you know, sports people and and it. unites them in a sense of common spirit.

Um so it's uh worth remembering the big. sources of awe that bring us together. The Constitution is all inspiring as a. document. >> I didn't know that 300 million people. would go to the national parks. >> Yeah. And you can go for $20. It's. anybody goes. There's a program for. fourth grade kids to go put together by. John Jarvis, the former director of the. parks. So, it's a unifying American. experience and it transcends our. concerns in the moment about, you know,

taxation or immigrants or the like. So, there are things that we can cultivate. >> So, our culture, as you know, is. obsessed with this whole idea of ranking. who's best and. >> win-win and how and you know, who's. number one and who's not. So the. question is how can. schools, how can families, how can. communities make space for awe for. children. >> growing up in an achievementdriven. achievementoriented.

environment. >> Yeah. I mean I worry about this a lot. and having raised two daughters and uh. teach young people up at Berkeley and. see the effects of our times 90% rise in. anxiety in young people. 90% rise. >> Yeah, it's epidemic. And so, um, what. the science of awe, uh, tells us is, uh, get them off the junk of their devices. And there's a lot of moral ugly. >> We know that. We know that. Yeah. >> Let them wander. Give them more spare.

time. And then, you know, let them do. the things that we deprioritize of music. and visual art. And um and the ones that. I really like, Oprah, that I think we've. deemphasized are moral beauty. You know, get them to reflect on the people who. move them. And then, you know, I think. every child should be thinking about the. big ideas they care about. And our. educational system has kind of I see. this in our colleges. they we don't.

think about like what's what's what's. the singular thing you want to be part. of, you know, >> that you learn from in history. Uh is it. justice? Is it. >> amiliarating suffering or what have you? And so I think we've got to return to. these these old ways that we used to. find meaning. >> How would you advise. those of us who are looking for more awe. in our life? What is an awe practice? Well, one of my favorites we tested,

which is the Awok. The Awok. >> And this is with Virginia Sturm at uh UC. San Francisco. We tested it with people. over the age of 75 or they're feeling a. little more anxious and painful. Uh and once a week you go out, a lot of. people are walking in the United States. And you look for awe. You look for. >> natural awe, right? uh you go you do. your walk at sunset or you go to a stand. of trees, you look for moral beauty, you.

may go visit walk past a park, right, where the kids are playing and all the. wonders of play. So So all you have to. do uh if you're looking for awe is is uh. build it into your daily routines. Um. >> looking for aw walks. >> Yeah. And there thousands of them are. being uh led by practitioners of awoks. now around the world. And it's an easy. thing to do. A lot of people find their. best exercise in walking and and now. just make it include a little mystery.

and wonder. >> Well, I had speaking of mystery and. wonder, I had uh Michael Pollen on and. we were talking about the effects of and. and also the late Dr. Roland Griffith. >> Yeah. >> And we're talking about the effects of. psychedelics. What is the connection. between psychedelics and awe? >> Yeah. Well, um, you know, and it's it's. a little comical that it took a while to. realize this in the scientific. community, but psychedelics or spirit.

medicines in indigenous traditions. produce these self-trcendent states. where the self quiets down and vanishes. and dissolves to use Michael's language. and opens us up to awe, right? and and. now several labs really feel that's the. active ingredient of uh a psychedelic. experience is to feel a deep sense of. reverence and connection to an ecosystem. to feel uh really moved by the.

compassion of fellow human beings to. feel music in a different way and and. that's true I mean in those experiences. awe is driving a lot of the benefits you. get from psychedism. >> I hope those of you who are listening. Incorporate this idea into your own. life. The idea of an awe walk. And one. of the things I appreciate about the new. science of everyday wonder and how it. can transform your life. Awe. What I. appreciate about it is is it doesn't. matter where you live. >> Yeah.

>> Or if you have a PhD or no D, it makes. no difference your life circumstances. >> Your ability to experience awe is within. reach of every human being. even at San. Quinton prison. >> Yeah. >> So tell us about your experiences there. >> Yeah. Um you know I had the great. privilege of um being part of the. restorative justice program uh at San. Quentin prison and I went in um and. that's a remarkable program that's built.

on the idea of moral beauty that you. know all humans uh have goodness within. them that they can find with the right. guidance and practice. um even if. they've perpetrated harms and the like. And so I go in and give a talk, you. know, and I think every American should. go into an American prison uh and just. to see that part of our state and it's. astonishing. It's, you know, it's uh you. don't have the wonders of life readily.

available. Solitary confinement, which. I've worked on, is is horrific. It's a. form of cruel and unusual punishment. So. I go in, I'm giving a talk in this. program. There are 180 prisoners. Uh all. of them work out a lot. I was the. smallest person in that building, you. know, and they would have twisted me up. like a pretzel. Uh and they are working. hard. And I and I at in the middle of my. talk, I was like, I have to do this. And. I said, what what brings you awe in San.

Quentin? And there's this there's this. quiet. And then the answers came, you. know, pouring forth and it was, you. know, my grandchild, learning how to. read, uh, getting my college diploma, uh, you know, the Quran, meditating, >> my. >> SI, yeah, >> you know, being outside and seeing the. the baylight, you know, San Quinton's on. the San Francisco Bay. And I, you know, Oprah, I was like, these are the best.

answers I've ever heard. you know, they. are a lesson that we can find awe. anywhere, right? And um and we can. cultivate awe in the hardest places. And. then, you know, my experience in San. Quentin and I will call out Darnell. Washington who's now he led the. restorative justice programs. He's a. dear friend outside. He's teaching yoga. and meditation that he learned inside to. kids in LA. And we know that those.

programs work. There's an 80% drop in. incarceration rates for young people. because of people like Darnell. And when. I look at his career, I'm like, it keeps. me it inspires me. So, it was a. life-changing experience. >> cuz we know that it seems to quiet the. ego and help reduce stress and it it can. be a part of also healing trauma. >> Yeah. >> As you're talking about, that's why you. don't have 80. That's why you have 80%. Right. Exactly right. >> Healing trauma and grief or loss. And so.

many people who are traumatized are. actually really grieving. >> Yeah. Well put. Really well put. You. know, I. >> they're grieving the life that they wish. they'd had. They're grieving mistakes. they've made. They're griev grieving. >> Yeah. The family could what they could. have been. And I was privileged to work. uh with Stacy Bear who's a veteran with. the Sierra Club. And Stacy is a pioneer. in grappling with the trauma of. veterans. You know, they have twice the. rates of PTSD as of civilians. And his.

wisdom coming out of his life was get. veterans outdoors. You know, get them on. rock climbing and rafting and. backpacking and skiing. Uh you know, they don't necessarily want. pharmaceutical cocktails. They want. >> to challenge themselves and to find. their courage. And so we took veterans. on a a half-day rafting trip on the. American River where my brother and I. used to raft which was amazing and it. led to a 32% drop in PTSD and you know.

for a week right and so for those of us. who are experiencing trauma uh or grief. be thinking about those immersive. experiences of awe right uh like that. half-day rafting 32% drop in in all the. symptoms of PTSD. And so, yeah, it I am really excited. about how awe can be a tool for. transforming grief and trauma.

>> Yes. And so, you wrote the book because. you wanted. the experience for the reader to result. in what? >> You know, Oprah, I've been teaching. happiness for 25 years. >> Yeah. begin the book talking about. teaching happiness. Yeah. >> And you know the world has changed and. you know the loneliness and anxiety and. self harm and depression and opioid use. and and uh and what I wanted to give.

people was the idea that they can. experience awe whenever they're wanting. to. >> I love how you begin the book. Your. introduction this is funny to me. You. said I've taught happiness to hundreds. of thousands of people around the world. It's not obvious why I ended up doing. this work. I've been a pretty wound up, anxious person for significant chunks of. my life. And I love this. And was thrown. out of my first meditation class for. laughing while we chanted, I am a being.

of purple fire. And when I read that, when I read that, I was like, what kind of meditation class was that? I'm a being of purple fire. >> Yep. My best friend memo. I got tossed. out of that class in college. Yeah. You. know, and and that's the point which is, you know, I struggle to meditate. Uh I I. am wound up. I can't that's just what I. got, you know, in my nervous system. Uh. and uh and awe really as I wrote this.

book in a very hard time in my life. I. was like, yeah, this that's what. grounded me in life is nature and the. moral beauty of seeing Nelson Mandela. come out of prison and Oakland. >> Wasn't that a day? I was just like, I. think about that and I had just got. goosebumps, you know, that's with me. today. So, it was awe that that lifted. me up. >> Wow. >> I appreciate you coming on, >> flying all the way through the fog, making it here. Thank you, Derer Kelner, for this awe inspiring conversation. I.

hope that you all begin to take awe. walks for yourselves and find more awe. in your everyday. The book Awe, the new. science of everyday wonder and how it. can transform your life is available. wherever you buy your books. Come hang. out with us again next week. Go well. You can subscribe to the Over Podcast on. YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcast, or wherever you listen. I'll. see you next week. Thanks everybody.