Claire Keegan: “Small Things Like These”| Oprah’s Book Club

Hi everybody and thank you so much for. joining us. I think this is so cool. Claire Keegan has traveled all the way. from Ireland. Let's welcome her here to. Starbucks. Thank [applause] you. I think sadness actually makes you think. about what life is like for others. I. think being upset is really important so. you can think about what others go. through. We are aha-ing all over the damn place. All over the Starbucks cafe. That is. such a big aha. This is Claire Keegan. everybody. Hey. [cheering].

Stand by, please. Okay. Great. Anytime. Hi everybody and thank you so much for. joining us. I think this is so cool. We are bringing. great books, great coffee, and great. conversation together in the best place. to do it, Starbucks. [applause]. Now, listen to this. Every month I'm. going to have a new book club pick and. Starbucks is going to pair a delicious. cup of curated coffee. The pairing for.

this book is Christmas Blend coffee, which pairs perfectly with the December. book because it takes place, wouldn't. you know it, at Christmas time. And then. we'll have conversation with the author. inside Starbucks cafes all around the. country. Books, coffee, and. conversation. I love this idea because I think that. sharing ideas and connecting in person. makes life sweeter and definitely more.

fun. So, here's the thing. You are the. very first audience. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [applause]. So, my 109th book club pick was listed. by the New York Times as one of the 100. best books of the 21st century. It and I. had never read it. It is. a novella. It's small, only 114 pages, and it's by Claire Keegan, and it's. called Small Things Like These.

Small Things Like These is set [music]. in 1985 in the small town of New Ross, Ireland. At that time in Ireland, [music]. the Catholic Church held power over the. culture. Author Claire Keegan's story centers. around Bill Furlong, a husband and. father of five daughters [music] who. runs a coal delivery service. The town is home to a convent and one of. Ireland's Magdalene Laundries, also.

known as Mother and Baby Homes, run by. Catholic nuns. For decades, it was an open secret that. tens [music] of thousands of young women. in Ireland who were pregnant out of. wedlock were housed in these. institutions against their will. They. were forced to work in the laundries. without pay or the freedom to leave. While delivering coal to [music] the. convent and laundry, Bill Furlong.

encounters a young woman who has been. locked [music] in a shed with no food, water, or even a toilet. She tells him her baby has been taken. [music] away from her. As the story progresses, Bill confronts. memories of his own childhood [music]. being born out of wedlock and how the. local people and even his own wife. encourage him to ignore the young woman. locked in the shed. Claire [music] Keegan's exquisite. writing examines Bill's struggle to go.

against the church. and the dire [music] consequences. weighing on him. On page 113, she writes, "He found. himself asking, was there [music] any. point in being alive without helping one. another?". Our audience has read this book, and. don't you think it's a classic? Yeah. [applause]. It's a classic. How many of you've read. it more than one time already? More than. one time already. Okay, that's really. good. So, I am so happy that the author.

of this beautiful story, Small Things. Like These, Claire Keegan, has traveled. all the way from Ireland. Let's welcome. her here to Starbucks. [applause]. Thank you. Well done. Well done. And thank you for. being here. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. It's a. pleasure. When we meet the main main character, Bill Furlong, uh. is this somebody you knew? Or a composite of somebody you knew?

Or how did you come Was he Was he what. came to your mind first when you were. writing the story? No, he's a He's a complete invention. Uh. not based on anyone I know. And I didn't. even have a coal merchant with a coal. man. before or. during or after writing this book. I. just made him up. But I think the. imagination I think language is older. and richer than we are. And. when you start playing around with it, it it gives you sometimes what you're.

looking for. I started writing a short. story about a boy. Mhm. who goes with his father to. um a Christian Brothers boarding school. to deliver a load of coal. And the boy, when he opens the coal house door, finds another boy. just about his own age locked inside. And his father. bids him to just come on and lock the. door.

And I was really interested in what you. would consider your father to be. if he told you to lock. Yeah, if he'll do that to a boy just. like you. And then why wouldn't he do it. to you? And is it all right that he won't do it. to you? And he'll do it to somebody else. And. then I thought, well, what am I going to. do with that? I was interested in that, but what am I going to do with that? Because the child always is living at. the mercy of who's minding him. Yes, yes. So, there's nothing really the boy can.

do but carry it. So, then my preoccupations shifted to. what if it was the father's story. And it was a longer story, and it was a. story of what the father does with that. Because he's an adult and he's he's a. male. And he has agency and he can do. something. He can do something. Whereas a child. wouldn't be able to do something. I love the way authors think. I love the way stories arise from.

nowhere and you were able to put words. on the page and leave us with something. that is so profound. And I heard that. you said stories go looking for their. authors, that they even. exist already. Do you believe that? I do. I really do. I don't know why I believe that, but um. That the story finds you. You don't find. the story. I do, and I think you have to listen for. it and wait for it. and not force it and play with it and.

sometimes just be really patient while. it's making up its mind. I know I know you have dogs. You know. when you you're lazy and you don't walk. your dog on a wet day and the nose keeps. coming? Yeah. There. Yes. Well, I I think that stories, when they. start doing that to you, it's time to. either write them. or then they'll go off and find somebody. else who will. Really? Yeah. Yeah. When did you know that you were a. writer? That you were able to meet the. story?

For this one, you mean? At any time. When you first recognize. that you were able to recognize the. story that had come to you and to take. that and put it in form words on a page. I never have, and I don't have it yet. I've never felt that. I don't know if it'll come again. You. don't know if it'll turn into something. even. even when you're in the middle of it, you don't know if you'll finish it. Um. I I I couldn't say that I I I I've ever.

known that. Okay, I've heard that you never give a a. a story a title until it's finished, that you. you you don't do that. That the title. comes to you. You're searching for the. title even as you're writing it. I've I've no talent for titles at all. [laughter]. I I really don't. I don't know what to. call something. I think what you call. something is actually a different talent. to writing movement. When you're writing. a story, you're writing movement over.

time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. naming it sometimes when you know, I've. been teaching creative writing for 30. years, and sometimes there'll be somebody in. the group who'll know exactly what to. call it. Yeah. And they have that talent. They can name. it. That's a separate talent. it is. than actually writing it. I think so. So, when did small things like these. occur to you? You know, you make a. reference to it here on page 11. Some. nights Ferlong lay there with Eileen.

going over small things like these. I think it was the best thing that I. could pick out of the book, and my. editors couldn't come up with anything. better. [laughter]. Well, we love the title, right? Great. I think it's a precious title, and what. does the title mean to you? It means everything to me. I think we'll you know, you live your. life in. over time, and. how you use the minutes and the hours. and the days that build into years.

becomes your character. Mhm. That's becomes who you are, and becomes. who we treat people. And how you relate to people and how. people relate to you and it's also about. the things you could have done which you. haven't or the or the horrible things. you could have said which you didn't. Yes. What whatever it whatever it is. um turns into a life. Turns into a life. Small things like. these turns into life. I love that so.

much because it reminds me of one of. many great lessons I learned from my. mentor and teacher Maya Angelou who said. to me that your legacy isn't one thing. but your legacy is every life you touch. It's everyone you encounter during the. day. It's how you treat every single. human being you encounter. You're. leaving and building your legacy every. day from the small things and the. extraordinary things. So, you said that. Bill Furlong wasn't inspired by anybody.

you know. So, often we read about main. characters who are good people who. uh make a wrong decision or do something. bad, you know, what we're talking about. and then have to recover from it. This. story is so different. How did you How. did you develop him? I just follow somebody physically. through time. You see, I believe your feet never lie. I'm really interested in horses and one. of the things that horses and starting. horses taught me is that your feet never.

lie. You know, you can you can go up into. your head in that place above your. eyebrows and you can say something that. absolutely isn't true is true because. you've come to believe it but your feet. never lie. So, one of the things I do when I'm. writing is I just follow somebody's feet. through time. because that will lead to the truth of. what they want. What the hell? [laughter].

What did you just say? [laughter]. Did you all follow that? Okay. You. follow someone's feet through time. because that will lead them to what they. want. Your feet are always after your. objective desire. Uh-huh. It's always true. Even if you're a con artist, you'd you. your feet are going after whoever it is. or whatever it is you want to con. Uh-huh. So, it's it's just I don't I don't try. and analyze what somebody is thinking. But, your feet are just hooked on to.

your emotions. And your emotions also are always. accurate. Well, I had never thought this before. I. love I love the idea of having a thought. I never thought before. I never thought this before. I also you. you've said that elegance to me is. writing just enough. And about Bill's. character, you said a longer novel would. not have suited his personality. I'm so. curious how you came to know that. Because he's a man of few words and he. he isn't a gossip and he doesn't say.

very much. I actually think he wouldn't. make a long night shorter. Uh-huh. You know? Um. So, he's not he's not somebody who goes. on and he needs he needs to keep busy. and I think he likes the repetition of. work. And I also think he's kind of afraid of. falling apart if he stops. Yes, but isn't he also in that period. that so many men have in their lives and. women of course, but I never thought of.

men thinking about these things. Women. actually talk about these things like. what is it all for? What is it what what what am I even. doing? What is it all for? Yes, I think he's that thoughtful type. of a person who's asking what he's doing. with his time. Uh-huh. Um. I I I think also it's part of his upset. Is is he doing what he should have done. with his life, with his time? Yes. As a father, as a husband, as a man.

Also, I think in that time leading up to. Christmas, we all wear some type of a. shield. And I think especially if you. have children, that at Christmas time. that shield grows a bit thinner. Why? Because you're supposed to be a. Christian. You're supposed to be thinking about how. you're getting on. You're supposed to pause. And look at your life. I think so. Mhm. So, I want to ask the audiences if had.

you all heard or knew about the. Magdalene Laundries before this? You all had. Oh, you very educated. people. I have to tell you I had never. Who had not heard? Not heard. Not heard. I had not heard. And who had heard? You. all are. I'm impressed. I had I had never heard. Um. in the dedication of the book, you. write, "The story is dedicated to the. women and children who suffered time in. Ireland's. Mother and Baby Homes and the Magdalene.

Laundries." Our audience came with. plenty of questions. Katie, where are. you? Go ahead. Right here. Hi. I had a family member who went. through an experience like that. She was. a teen mom, gave up her baby, and she. just recently reunited with her son. almost like 50 years later. And had a. really beautiful story and a beautiful. reunion. But I was also wondering if you. I know you talked about your if you had. a personal connection to the characters, but did you have any personal connection. to the Laundries or anyone in that you.

knew of that had the similar experiences. that these women had? Um no, I I didn't I didn't have any. relative or anybody anybody I knew in. the Laundries. Um. It was just all over the news for a long. time in Ireland. And I think the. question I was. interested in was why did people do. nothing when the police knew the social. workers knew and the parents knew um and.

the Catholic Church knew, the priests. knew, the nuns knew, and nobody nobody. did anything. And I I wasn't able to not. ask the question while I was was. writing. Really, I think the book is a. response to my asking the question. I want to take a moment now to introduce. you to Maureen Sullivan who was just 12. years old when she was taken from her. family and sent to live in one of the. laundries. And she wrote about her.

experience in her memoir called Girl in. the Tunnel. These are excerpts from the. documentary Ireland's Dirty Laundry, which was produced by New Decade Films. Here's a brief look at Maureen's story. Take a look. Our father had died. He died just before. I was born. And my mother remarried. In 1964, [music]. 12-year-old Maureen Sullivan, who grew. up in an impoverished home, says she. bravely made a confession to a nun at.

her school. She called me into the office and I told. her. that my stepfather was hurting me. It. was sexual abuse and I was only a little. child. The next day that there was a man drives. the laundry van and he came to collect. me. I was innocent. I thought I was. going to go to school. The day I arrived um I knew by the two. nuns that come out to greet me, I knew. straight away this is not going to be. good. [music].

In the morning you get up early and you. clean the corridors. One morning you. might polish them, the next morning. [music] you'd shine them, the next. morning you'd wash them again. And then. you go to mass, then you come back and. you have your breakfast, and then you go. on to work in the laundry. If you maybe. weren't working quick enough, you'd get. a dig of the cross. into you. They used to carry these rosary beads. around on [music] a big long rosary. beads, but the cross was really big on. it, and they'd put their two fingers. around the cross, and they'd just dig it.

in. There'd be bruises on you for. [music] weeks after it. Maureen says when inspectors came to the. laundry, the nuns would hide her in dark. tunnels for [music] hours without food. or water. It was just horrific. And you were afraid to talk, but. and the way that the. [music]. church covered up, nobody cared. I think I thought I was there for life, and of course it's in your head, am I. ever going to get out of here? Is. [music] this my life now?

Maureen is zooming in with us today from. her home in Carlow, Ireland. Maureen, hi. there. Hi. Hello. Hello. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you. I know you've read Claire's book. What. kind of emotions came up for you when. you were reading Small Things Like. These? Yes, a lot of emotions come up, but. uh when you. could get deep into it, I liked the way. she told the truth about the nuns,

the way that they were able to bribe. people, the power that they had in. Ireland. I think that's the first time. that it's ever really come out that. strong. Really? Even with all the stories in the. news? Because one of the things Claire. was sharing with us is that First of. all, this was happening in the '80s, and. the last laundry was closed when? In. 1996? so, yes. 90. 96. I mean, this is very, very recent. that this was was happening. And I hear.

that you felt so broken from the trauma. in your 30s that you even attempted. suicide. I did, yes. Yeah, I was in a very dark. place. I think you're trying to survive. in your younger life. and you're working and you're trying to. survive and then all of a sudden then it. just hits you some stage your life if. you don't deal with it and try and heal, it will hit you in a big way and that. that's what happened with me.

How old were you when you were thinking. of killing yourself? I was in my early 30s, 34, 35, yeah. Early early 30s. So, what is the thing that has helped. you to heal? First of all, you know, God. bless you. I read your book which is. available on Amazon. It's called Girl in. the Tunnel. So, those of you who have. read small things like these. if you want a true true story of what. really happened, Maureen's book Girl in.

the Tunnel. I just. can't imagine. the kind of courage and will it takes to. be you. You are one strong powerful. woman. Thank you. Thank you so much. Just one strong powerful woman to come. through what you did, the assault, abuse. and constant sexual molestation from. your stepfather and your mother knew. Your mother knew.

And I love that first chapter in Girl in. the Tunnel when you say, "What did I do. wrong? What did I do wrong?" You simply. told on him and by telling on your. stepfather who was constantly sexually. assaulting you. You then were sent to the laundries to. an even worse existence. Yeah, it's I was punished. And not only that, I think then when I I. think the part that really hurt me is. when you try to heal and you try to.

bring your story out. and heal yourself and then they they. denied they were really trying to cover. my story up and still are and that's why. I wrote my book. They really want to. hide my story. They don't want anybody. knowing that that's what they done with. an innocent child. that went to look for help. That nun approached me and she said, "You look pale. You look very disturbed. You're not.

speaking to anybody." And I I opened up. and trusted her and told her my story. And I went back to the nuns that I I'm. very lucky in life in a lot way. I met. very good people. And the man that I started working for, Ernie Stevenson, he took me down. I I. said to him, "I'm going to bring my. story forward. Will I damage your. business?" And he said, "I don't care.". He said, "I will stand by you." He said,

"That story is horrific." He said, "You. have to get the truth out." And when I. went to meet that nun, I never forget. it. I asked her, well he asked, my boss. asked, "Why was my name changed? Why was my hair cut? Why was I made a. slave of? And why. did they. hide me and not give me my education?". And her words was I'll never forget. "Uh Mr. Stevenson, have you got.

children?". And he said, "I do.". He said, "I've two daughters." He She. said, "Would you like your children. playing with Maureen?". And she's he was shocked. And he said, "Why?". And she said, "We couldn't have Maureen. playing with the other children. She. would corrupt their little minds if they. asked her why she was there.". Wow. Yeah, I was a soiled child. So, I was. punished the whole way through for.

his crimes. I'm so sorry. This is the thing that so. striking those of you who will read Girl. in the Tunnel. Your. stepfather was a pure predator because. not only was he sexually assaulting you. on a regular basis and everybody in the. house knew, certainly your mother knew. and your grandmother knew, but nobody. could do anything about it. But he did. what a lot of predators do. He started. calling you a liar. Maureen is a liar. Maureen is a liar.

And he started doing that long before. you told so that when you did tell, nobody would believe you. So even at. school, kids would call you Maureen the. liar. Yes. Your mother started calling you a liar. Yeah. I mean. He He grew up his children up like that. He's He The He's own children heard. these words, Maureen the liar. He was. kid himself covered in every way. How How How nasty and how evil.

Yeah. of a man he was. Yeah. Well, Small Things Like These has been. made into a movie this year co-produced. by Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and it. stars Oscar-winning Irish actor Cillian. Murphy and I say read the book first. Read the book first. Small Things Like. These. Maureen, I hear you went to the. premiere. How was that experience for. you and I hear you've seen it now. multiple times. Yes. I I'm going back again to see it. Uh the hope.

that you get from it it was the the. truth that came out in it. The way the. nuns were so corrupt that they. threatened people. Your job could be. gone. Your children mightn't get into. school. Um bribing with money. That's exactly. what they did and that side has never. been told before. And then Cillian. Murphy, the way he acted, it was just. fantastic. Do you feel by small things like these,

Claire's book, and now this book being. made into a movie, do you feel some. sense of validation. that you've been that you have been. heard? Yes, I do. I do. And I thank Claire very. much. for writing that book. And I And I thank. her for getting that movie and. everything done. It's given us. It's We're healing. We're starting to. heal. You know, and I and I really do thank. her. Yeah. And I think you're starting to. heal because you can be heard. And just.

know that all of us at the Starbucks. Cafe here, we hear you. We hear you, Maureen. Thank you. We hear you. so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story. with us. Maureen's book, Girl in the. Tunnel, is available on Amazon. How does. it feel to know that the story you have. written has now enabled many of these. women who still are alive to start the. healing process for themselves? I'm just delighted. Mhm. I'm just delighted to have, you know,

had the opportunity to. to write the book and and and be heard. and to say something about misogynistic. Ireland. Mhm. Cuz one of the things I know about the. misogynist is that he wants to shut you. up. Mhm. Verbally and physically. In Maureen's. case, obviously, she was incarcerated. So, it was lovely to be able to come out. the the far side of that and uh and use. my voice and use my power to be able to.

say something. um which obviously Maureen at least does. not find in any way offensive and finds. it accurate. Mhm. Aaron, where are you? You have a. question? Yeah, go ahead. Hi. Um I have lots of family in Ireland. I've been there many, many times over. the years. And I was just curious how. your experience in Ireland had an impact. in explaining the differences between. and the character development of. Catholics and Protestants in Ireland at.

that time. Thank you. Um. Well. Ireland is is uh and was primarily. Catholic, you know, and and the. Catholics were. generally speaking poor. um and Protestants were were not. But I. just wasn't brought up with any hatred. I was very lucky in that regard. Um and. I never I never remember my parents um. having any kind of a them and us. Um and I actually remember my my mother.

saying that a Protestant was more likely. to give you a lend of a plow than a. Catholic would be. Um and so. I so I I was a very lucky. I didn't I. didn't think about about Protestant. neighbors as being anything other than. more privileged than than we were. Um so there was there was just no no. hatred at all. There was no hostility as. far as. as far as I remember uh anywhere in my.

childhood. And maybe that's why Mrs. Wilson in the book is kind. If you could have coffee with anybody in. the book, who would that be? Mrs. Wilson. Yes. I I would choose Mrs. Wilson. Yeah. I was. I I was going to choose Mrs. Wilson. [laughter]. You would Were you going to choose Mrs. Wilson for real? Yes, yes. Yeah, why would you choose Mrs. Wilson? I just thought um it you know, going. back to it was very much male-dominated. society at that time. I thought she was. a woman and um she was very brave to.

take this young girl in. Um and uh. provided really Bell with an avenue with. by giving him the book gave him really. an outlet of utilizing the book, matching it up with then the dictionary, and kind of giving him a base for. getting out. Yeah, there's a line you used to. describe her like she was a woman who. could make her own decisions or a woman. who could decide for herself and I just. thought I want to talk to that woman who. at that time was able to do that. And it. feels it feels so dated. I was talking.

to some of the group earlier. We were. saying this feels like it's the 50s or. something. It feels so it doesn't feel. like it was the 80s. There There was no great deal apart from. the motor cars. I don't know that there. was a huge difference between the 80s. and the 60s or or the 50s. Wow. Um. We had We had. bad hairdos in the 80s. Contraception was illegal in Ireland. until 1985.

Marital rape was legal until 1990. So. that'll give you a picture of. what the 80s were like in Ireland. We. also had the highest unemployment in. Western Europe. Wow. So it was a. difficult and backward time. Well, we wanted to know how young women. in Ireland today feel about this book. and my team talked to two high school. friends from Claire's hometown of. Wicklow. They're joining us now from a.

nearby Starbucks in Bray, Ireland. Hello. Francis and Lena Rose. Hi. Hi girls. Thank you for having us. What kind of coffee are you having. today? Chai latte. Chai latte, I believe in it. So tell us. I hear you encouraged your high school. teacher to have your class read Small. Things Like These and each student is. now writing a paper about the book. How. great is that? Way to go Lena Rose. So basically it's one of the choices on.

our curriculum for our English class. It's one of the options that we can. pick. So I had read it already and had. gone to my teacher and said I really. really hoped this book um, would it be. possible and then she went to the board. and they spoke and they decided to do. the book. Uh, so, we're learning it as. like part of our final assessment. So, as young women, we were just talking. about how this. doesn't feel like it was as recent as. the '80s and '90s. And in 1996,

I know you still weren't born, but in. 19, that is late as 1996, these stories were still happening. So, as a young woman, how does that make you. view your history in the country? I don't know. Yeah, I think that it, um, highlights how recent it is, especially. with, um, Claire's book, Small Things. Like These, and. um, Oranges as well, Girl in the Tunnel. I think you see it around you all the. time with young women like us, but also.

with our mothers and our grandmothers. Um, a lot of that shame and guilt has. passed down through the generations. And. whether it was directly or indirectly, uh, the women in our lives have all been. affected by the laundries and the. culture over here against women. Mhm. Because I think at the end of the day, women were punished for being women. And. there's just so much hurt and pain, and. it's still such a taboo topic, um, to be. discussed. And when I've talked to.

anybody who. has been affected, um, by the same. themes of the laundries, they blame. themselves, um, and it's hard for that. to go away, especially when it was so. recent. I think that, uh, if we're being honest, it wasn't, you. know, a giant secret. Um, and I don't. think Ireland is, I don't think it's. time for us to move on from it. I think. having the spotlight on it for longer. and talking about it is really. important. Wow.

One of my favorite things about the, the. book, the reason I love it so much is. that it is so unapologetically and. unavoidably Ireland in the 80s. Like you. can't There's not a second when you're. reading the book like you can genuinely. believe that this is in a different. place or this is in a different time. You you you can't take yourself out of. the story. This is your village, your. people, your town, your community and that's so powerful. that you have to are forced to. acknowledge this is a part of your very. recent history.

Wow. So wise girls, so wise. Do you have a Do. you have a question for Claire? Was there a specific event that inspired. you to write this? Like why did it feel. so personal to you? Hello, Wicklow. [laughter]. Bad Wi-Fi in Wicklow. Yeah. No, there really there really wasn't. It. was just after reading the Ferns Report. first of all, and then I. I I heard what was going on in the.

Magdalene laundries on the radio and I. just needed to write something about it, but it wasn't it wasn't in any way way. personal for me on an autobiographical. level. It was what I was imagining, but. I don't think there's anything more. personal than what you imagine. Yeah. Good luck with your studies. Thank you. with your studies and thanks for getting. more people to read small things like. these. Thank you, Frances and Lena Rose. Thank you. Thank you both. [applause]. When you wrote this, I I'm sure I don't.

know if writers think about it moving on. from generation to generation and now. that it's you know, being read in. classes and all of that, it. does what for you as an author? I I'm it just makes me feel grateful. that I have the life I have and that I'm. able to make a living writing stories. and that people want to read them and. and that they're being taught in the. schools and it's lovely to think that. there are. you know, teenage boys in Ireland now. asking the question of what would I do.

and how am I and how do I treat women? Wow, because that misogyny just moves. from generation to generation. Yes. Let's hope not. Yes. Yeah. The whole idea of your husband. comes home and you're. there to greet him and to make his life. as easy as possible and going through. the whole the things that we heard. our mothers did and their mothers did. and their mothers did that we have been.

liberated from. I think to be reminded. that in the '80s and '90s this was still. very prevalent. Indeed. in other parts of the world is important. for we as women people and particularly. to know. And and those [clears throat]. of you who are guys who read this, did. it surprise you? Yes, it did surprise me. What really. resonated with me as a father the. longing to be part of the family more. He left home. He had to go to work and.

when he came home he was present but he. was always worrying about the next. paycheck, the next bill, the. the money owed to him to cover his. large family and that day and age but. even now if you have that many kids. being able to feed them, worrying about. his wife's happiness while she's. sleeping right next to him. longing for her but realizing maybe she. had a rough day that she needs to just. sleep and rest and he has to get up and.

leave and. him wanting to be more. in his daughter's lives but realizing. his job is to provide for them and step. away and do the job, do the work. Wow. Yeah. Did you relate to him? I did. I did as a father. Yeah. Okay, I heard you see this as a love. story. Tell us why. I I think what. the main difference between Furlong and. some of the other men in that community. might be that when he was young he was.

loved and cared for. He was living in privileged. circumstances and the three people who. lived there all cared for him and cared. well for him and even though he lost his. mother. when he was young she loved him and she. minded him and people. in that house respected each other and. there's a there's a wonderful poem by. Philip Larkin called an Arundel Tomb and. it concludes with the line what will. survive of us is love. And I think that carries over into into.

that is true. Bill's personality. because he wasn't brutalized perhaps the. way other people were. wasn't so. hard. Sheamus Heaney says we get hurt and get. hard. And I I think he was able to keep some. of his softness. And I think this too. I was saying this. to our group earlier that I think that. people are able to give. You all think. about this question, is it true for you.

and also for people in your life. not just the characters that we read. about in small things like these. You are able to give love in direct. proportion to how you've been able to. receive it. And exactly what you were. saying about Bill Furlong, he was able. to do that because he was loved loved by. his mother for as long as she was there. able to give it to him but also the. kindness shown him. the care shown to him. Just that one day. Mrs. Wilson patted him on the head and.

he walked around that whole day and even. longer thinking that he was somebody and. as good as the other kids. I think you're able to do that in direct. proportion to how you're given it and if. you're not given it you never received. what you needed you walk around bitter. and that's what's coming out of you all. the time. And so often what we see from. people is the bitterness from the love. they never received. That's what I think. Yeah. Erica, what is your question? What is. your question for Claire, Erica?

This was such a powerful book. Uh I know. it touches on things such as social. social responsibility, morality, and. guilt. So, I was wondering what messages. you wanted the readers to kind of take. away, especially in this climate that. we're living in today. There's so many. things that this can even though this. book was written you know, in past. times, we're living. this again in different ways and. different times. I was curious to see. what you want readers to take away. Thank you for the question. Um I'm not sure that there is a message.

I want anyone to take away from the. book. Um. I think reading a book is a really. personal thing. And whatever you take away from it is. all right. And you know, some people may. think this is a story of a. of a fool. I mean, he was born on April. Fools' Day, and people predicted when he. was born that he would turn out to be a. fool, and maybe that's what the story. is. Um maybe there were cleverer ways to get. done what he got done.

Um maybe it's a story about love. Maybe. it's a Maybe it's a story about a. marriage falling apart. Maybe it's a. story about a man breaking down. But. what whatever it is, um whatever it is is all is all right. because I think I think your response to. a book. um it is is deeply personal and. shouldn't be interfered with. I I think. the reader completes the book. Oh, we love that. All of us readers went, "Oh, thanks.".

[laughter]. We, the reader, we complete the book. Would you agree, Dennis? That's true. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Uh Neuro Neuro, where are you? Okay. Neuro with the pink shoes. Go ahead. You wrote in the final chapter how Bill. notices his courage and. self-preservation battling itself. And it reminded me as a therapist how so. many people their past experiences. inform and direct their current choices.

And because he had experienced that. goodness, he was able to make the. courageous one. And I think I was wondering what makes. the difference in someone making that. courageous one. I know one of my. favorite lines in your book was the hand. steady. Yes. Seeing no remorse, no anxiety, she had. it down. So, what makes the difference. in someone being able to make the. courageous choice versus being either. complicit or a bystander? I think it's empathy.

I actually think it's sadness in the. end. I know that we're supposed to be happy. all the time, but I mean I just think. that would be death for empathy. I think sadness actually makes you think. about what life is like for others. If you weren't sad, if you didn't feel. that, you wouldn't have empathy. Not having sadness would be death for. empathy. I do think that. Oh, that's so brilliant. I actually do. think that's brilliant. Now, you guys. think I think. I think being upset is really important.

for your development. Um so you can think about what others go. through. We are aha-ing all over the damn. [laughter]. all over the the Starbucks cafe. That is. such a big aha. Don't you think? I think so. And at the same time, I'm a. therapist and my friend's a. psychologist, we see sadness go the. other way. It becomes so self-protective. that you can't step into empathy, either. So, it's a fine distinction. Well, I think then you're you're so sad. that you're damaged.

You've hardened. That's the hardness I. was talking about earlier. Yes. You get hurt and get hard. You get hurt and get hard. Mhm. That is true. So many people have done. that. This is what I I I so appreciated. And I think you're talking about this. This is on page 113. He found himself. asking, was there any point in being. alive without helping one another? Was. it possible to carry on along. through all the years, the decades,

through an entire life without once. being brave enough to go against what. was there and yet call yourself a. Christian and face yourself in the. mirror. I thought that was just so poignant. And. also, the thing for me is. the very last sentence of the book. Climbing the street towards his own. front door with the barefooted girl and. the box of shoes. His fear more than. outweighed every other feeling.

But in his foolish heart, he not only. hoped but legitimately believed that. they would manage. Okay. We need a sequel. [laughter]. Cuz what happens? I mean, we were all. saying this morning, when he gets home, Eileen is going to blow her. She's going to be that emoji with the. blown head off, right? [laughter]. She And And it's not One of the things.

we appreciate about the story is that. you don't know what's going to happen. except it's not going to be easy. And. that's why his fear outweighs every. other emotion. And also, why it is the. ultimate act of bravery. Because in order You have to have fear. in order to be courageous. Don't you think though it's also kind of. comical. that you'd be afraid to take a girl home. on Christmas Eve? That looking back for me now, looking.

back, why would anybody not do that? Is also comical. Because he's going to he knows it's. going to keep his girls out of that. school. His girls aren't going to be. able to go to that school. Those nuns. are going to make life miserable for. him. I I agree. I mean, I I know I'm not I'm. not disagreeing with you, but what I'm. saying is. How's he going to live in that town and. she's and Eileen is going to resent him. forever. She's never getting over it. I think it's all bad. I- Eileen is mad right now. She's mad.

[laughter]. Eileen is mad that there's a book and. Eileen is mad that there's a movie. She's mad that Lena Rose and Francis are. talking about it. Eileen is just mad. Yeah. Yeah. I I just think looking back now why. how how afraid people were of the. church. And obviously still are based on what. Lena Rose and Francis were saying, people still don't want to talk about. it.

Yeah, people are are have been silent. for so long they don't know how to find. the words now. Oh. the Catholic Church has collapsed in. Ireland. People just don't go. People don't mind. People don't worry. Mhm. And that's interesting. So, do you think your book. and the subsequent movie with Oscar. winner Cillian Murphy playing the role. of Bill Furlong, that that is going to. open up the conversation in a way that.

hasn't been because storytelling. does that in a way that no no news story. can? I I would hope so. Yes. It It's already opened up in Ireland to. a to great extent. It really has. Um but I'm I'm just glad that other. people in other parts of the world can. hear about it and think about it and. it's it's lovely really to be a a. novelist or a short story writer cuz um. you know, you don't have to pretend you. work for to tourist board.

[laughter]. It's nice to be a critic of your own. society and get that chance. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what a brave thing for. you. Were you afraid ever in writing the. story of what might happen to you as a. writer or what people would say or how. the book would be received or not be. published? Not Not at all. I I've never worried. about that. I've always written what. matters to me. And if you don't like it, well, well, just go find them. read another book. [laughter].

Well, we're glad you wrote this one. Thank you, Claire Keegan, for Small. Things Like These. Thank you. [applause]. And thank you all for your thoughtful. questions. Thank you. Thank you. To everyone watching and listening, if. you haven't bought the book yet, it's. the perfect This is This is a wonderful. stocking stuffer for the holiday season. It fits right in a stocking. You can. grab a bag of Christmas Blend coffee, put a little cup in there, too, and put.

a ribbon on it, and you got yourself a. gift. Thank you. Thank you so much. All. of our fantastic readers, thank you, Starbucks, for supporting us. Thank you. We hope you'll become a part of the book. club, subscribe to the podcast on. YouTube, and follow us on Spotify, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. podcast. We're excited for a fun year of. books, coffee, and conversation. Thanks, everybody. Small Things Like These. [applause]. Thank you.