Can the Dying See the Other Side? A Hospice Doctor’s Remarkable Findings

You have witnessed thousands of people. take their last breath. What are some of. the end-of-life [music] experiences or. dream experiences that your dying. patients have told you about? >> The most common thing they would dream. about is seeing their deceased loved. ones. They say this was a happy. Sometimes they actually get offended. when you imply that it was a dream. >> Because it was a visitation for them. >> Yeah, it was very It was very real for. them. Very, very real. And then not. dream-like and it wasn't just anybody. It was those that loved and secured the. most. There's almost this form of final. justice. If somebody withheld love, one.

parent, they were excluded, but the one. who nurtured and loved and secured was. included. Maybe one sibling and not two. >> The people show up who loved you. >> Yes, and had pivotal role in the. formation of who you were. >> Wow. >> And in that sense, in the end, you're. almost put back together by being. brought back to family. >> Hi and welcome to the Oprah podcast. We. heard about a phenomenon called. end-of-life dreams, which is when people.

are near their last days of life, they. often have visions or visitations in. their dreams. And those of you who've. experienced this, you've had the blessed. sacredness of being with somebody as. they're passing, maybe you have. experienced this with a loved one or. will in the future. Dr. Chris Kerr is a. neurobiologist. and the chief medical officer at Hospice. and Palliative Care Buffalo. And his TED.

Talk has 5.5 million views already and. he's written a book called Death Is But. a Dream, Finding Hope and Meaning at. Life's End. So, what do you mean by. that, Death Is But a Dream? >> That. there there's a death that we see and we. know, the physical, the objective. Um. the physical lessening in the suffering, but then there's a subjective aspect of. it. There's this inner world of dying, there's the patient perspective. And the. closest nomenclature we have for that is.

a dream-like state. >> Is a dream-like state. It's not a dream, it's just a dream-like state. >> Yeah. When we actually asked patients in. survey, about half of them said they. were actually awake when these were. happening. And we actually asked them to. measure on realism, it was 10 out of 10, closest to being real. >> [music]. >> These so-called deathbed dreams are now. being more fully understood as. end-of-life experiences. Neurobiologist. Dr. Chris Kerr is the leading expert on.

this mysterious phenomenon. He and his. research team have [music] conducted. more than 1,500 interviews with fully. lucid patients nearing the end of their. life. And many of these patients. describe [music] vivid encounters with. deceased loved ones. >> Well, the last one we talked to was a. baker. It was like a regular Sunday dinner at. night. >> They report that these visitations don't. feel like dreams at all, but as deeply. real experiences that can [music] bring. comfort, peace, and closure for the.

dying, and also those they leave behind. You have witnessed thousands of people, actually, take their last breath. Can. you just share for us for a moment what. that is like, and it never gets old, I'm. sure. >> No, it's um. it's more anticlimactic than climactic. Um dying is a state of progressive. sleep, and of letting go. It's very hard. to die, in fact, if you're if you're not. physically comfortable as well as. psychologically at peace. And so, people.

get deeper in sleep, and death happens. in that state. >> Mhm. >> And you usually see it coming, um and there just usually isn't a next. breath. >> very hard to die if you're not. physically comfortable. >> Mhm. >> and not psychologically. >> Yes. >> also ready. People don't die in a wake. state, they die in the depths of sleep, and you can't get there unless you're. comfortable. And everybody seems to have a. understanding of that from a physical. perspective, >> Mhm. >> but psychologically, existentially, you.

also have to find peace. >> And here's what you write on page 13. I. appreciated this. End-of-life. experiences testify to our greatest. needs. to love and be loved, to be nurtured and feel connected, to be remembered. and forgiven. They provide continuity between and. across lives. Based on the content of these dreams, it's obvious that the forgiveness and. love that count the most come from.

family. And you've seen this over and. over and over and over. What are some of. the end-of-life experiences or dream. experiences that your dying patients. have told you about? What impact do they. have on them and also on their family. members? >> When we measured this with patients and. we'd give them a questionnaire every day. before death, and they had a menu list. to choose from. The most common thing. they would dream about is seeing their. deceased loved ones. And it wasn't just. anybody. It was those that loved and. secured them most.

>> Mhm. >> So, there's almost this form of final. justice. If somebody withheld love, one. parent, they were excluded, but the one. who nurtured and loved and secured was. included. Um maybe one sibling and not. two. We even had people who had multiple. spouses. They loved the second, not one. and three. >> Mhm. >> The second one appears. >> Mhm. >> So, it's very conditioned on that. >> The people show up who loved you the. most. >> Yes. And and and had a pivotal role in.

in the formation of who you were. >> Wow. >> And in that sense, in the end, there's. this you're almost put back together by. being brought back to family. >> And also, it's so comforting. >> Overwhelmingly. 88%. rated them comforting. And in the dying. process, was fascinating. The closer. they got to death, the more likely they. were to see the deceased who had passed. And those were the ones when they were. measured on comfort gave them the. greatest comfort. So there's this. built-in process as they get close to. death, they're ever more comforting.

Really what's happening is the life gets. affirmed. Um and none of these deny death. They just affirm life and in doing so. lessen the fear of dying. >> Your research shows that our dreams. change as we near death. >> Yeah. And the really the the question. about came because the nurses that I was. working with at hospice were so able to. predict or prognosticate. And I had no clue. I mean this is not. something you learn in medical school. >> That's exactly what happened when my.

father passed. The doctors were saying. one thing and the hospice nurse said, "Your father's going to leave this world. within a week.". >> Yeah. >> And the doctors were saying he had. months to live and other family members. were saying, "The doctors are saying.". But the hospice nurse said to me, "You need to stick around cuz your. father's going to be gone within a. week." Yes. >> And that's really what propelled us. It. was. It was humbling. to be consistently put in my place. And. you know, it's the inability to. recognize dying in totality. So in.

medicine you think of dying in terms of. organ systems and failure. >> Yeah. >> And people die in whole, not in parts. And the people at the bedside, the. nurses, pastoral care, they could see. this for what it was. >> see it coming. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, cuz she said all the signs are. there. >> Yes, very much. >> That he's on his way out. >> Yep. >> Yeah. And what are those signs? Actually, what we're talking about when. you start to have visions of people who. have passed away. >> Yes. >> That's a sign that you're very close to. the end. >> So the again, that's happening in the. context of sleep. So you're sleeping.

more and within the sleep state more and. more you're immersed in these. experiences. >> that a beautiful thing to know that the. people who have loved you here on earth. come back and visit you through your. dreams in order to help the transition. to the other side. >> You know, it's a really better story, right? That um for for being loved or. loved and having mattered, those things. are still there for you. They're tangent. to you, they're proximate, and time and. distance seem to go away. >> Yeah.

>> So, you can be 95 years old, um lost. your mother when you were five, but it's. her voice you hear. You smell the. perfume. You're put back together. And. again, this feels virtual to the. patient. It feels real. >> You prefer the phrase end-of-life. experience rather than dream when we're. talking about that. Why have you come to. believe that dream is an inadequate term. for this or description for this? >> Yeah, you know, I think in part um. it's because our job was to translate. the words and experiences of our.

patients. And what they tell us is. typically, "I don't normally dream. Um I I don't remember my dream. No, no, this was different. This was a virtual. They say this was a happening.". Sometimes they actually get offended. when you imply that it was a dream. >> Because it was a visitation for them. >> Yeah, it was very It was very real very. very real. And they're not dream-like, and there's not symbolism, they're not. metaphor. Very little is said between. the person in the dream and the dreamer, but everything seems to be understood. And what I think is most fascinating, I've been doing it for 27 years, I've.

never had a patient ask me, "What do you. think this means?". >> Ah. >> So, there's no space for analysis. >> Cuz they know what it means. >> Well, if you saw your parent that you. lost as a child, you don't need that. translated. >> You know what it means. >> Yeah, they're not looking for answers to. questions unanswered. And. >> And and [clears throat] also what's. important that you write here and also. just said here is that it doesn't come. to you in the form of symbolism. >> Yeah. >> Like tornadoes, and what does tornadoes. symbolize? Disruption, chaos. >> The metaphors aren't there.

>> Metaphors aren't there. >> aren't there. >> It's just real. >> It's based on real-life happenings, real-life people. It's recalled with. absolute clarity. They're they have. heightened acuity, they have insight. into these experiences, and they know. what it means without a translator. And. if you think about it, and this is very. different than near death experiences, they're actually dying. They shouldn't. have to do the work of process. It just. should be brought to them. And. it's understood. >> So, are dreams. or end-of-life exper- end-of-life.

experiences, these end-of-life. [clears throat] visitations, are they. different for a child? Because a child. who is dying of cancer at 6 or 7 or 8. years old hasn't had the experience of. losing people in life who have gone to. the other side or who died. >> Yeah, children do all this differently. Um and we published cases. over this. They don't have to work. through acceptance. It just every day is. a new. It is what it is. So, there's a. factuality about it. They don't. distinguish between the imaginary and.

the real in the same way. They don't have language for mortality, finality. Um and they often won't know. somebody who has died, but they will. know an animal. that's died, whether it's theirs, a. neighbor's, a grandparent's. And the. symbolism or the meaning is the same. And the children have used the same. language, which is that I'm not alone. and that I'm loved. >> Right. So, the animal comes back. The. pet comes back. >> same same meaning. And they see them in. health, and they see them well. You know, the next thing that they.

really often have to address, the lesion. for them really is a life without a. parent. And in many cases, somebody else comes. in that form. It may be a deceased. friend of the family. >> Mhm. >> And they'll often build a world. We had. a young lady who made a castle for. herself, and she was in the castle. And. when asked what it was, she said it was. a safe place. >> Wow. >> And the other thing is very clear from. these experiences it. informs them in a way that we don't.

about their prognosis and what their. understanding is. So, they often have a. very clear understanding that they are. at the end of their life. >> When these visitations start to occur? >> And what's been fascinating in several. is they've known. but they haven't disclosed unless asked. for wanting to protect their parents. >> What does it do for you and the people. who work with you? First of all, I just. think that I said to you before we. started this conversation, you're doing. the Lord's work out here, Dr. Carr. How. does it enhance or impact your life to.

be around so much death? >> The opposite of what you'd think. I think. um when I start doing this work, I I. would not want to say I This is what I. do for all the responses that we get. >> Yeah. >> And people out there assume that. >> assume, "Oh, that's so depressing.". >> Probably depressing or you're depressed. >> Mhm. >> Um and in fact, if you came to where we. are, you would find a work culture and a. camaraderie that's remarkable, that's. uplifting, that's full of humor. Of.

course, there's tragedy, but what people. miss is we see the very best of. humanity. We see caregivers who find. remarkable strength and courage and. love. We see people whose lives stop and. have to go home and be a parent to their. parent. Uh so, we see we see a form of love. that's just awe-inspiring. Uh and so, I think we're better for. being witnesses to all this. >> And you write about, you know, patients. and not only write about patients, but. you filmed thousands of patients. Why.

did you film them? >> Because this is work was originally. meant for doctors. So, it came out of. frustration in trying to teach young. doctors that the patients were having an. expe- There's more to dying than what we. were seeing. You know, you may not. understand it, but at least you have to. have reverence for it. And they would. say there was no evidence. So, we live. in an evidence-based time. So, we. started to do the studies for that. reason. Then the concern was, "Well, everyone will think they're confused, they're drugged, they're feeble-minded, so we filmed them just so it was very.

important that people heard them in. their own words and and looked at them. >> Yeah, there was a patient you write. about so vividly here, Dwayne. Can you. tell us a little bit about him? >> Yeah. >> His reunion with his daughter and the. desire to have forgiveness. >> So, 80% of these were were. overwhelmingly comforting and 12 were. discomforting. What we got wrong was the. discomforting dreams were actually some. of the most transformative. So, you could carry this lifelong. spiritual psychological injury that got. addressed at the end, and that was.

really the story of Dwayne. What. happened to him was he had. multi-generational substance abuse. He. was imprisoned more than he was out of. prison. He came into our inpatient unit. because he couldn't sleep. He had head. and neck cancer. And he thought that he was being stabbed. where his wounds were by everybody he. had harmed. He was a loving man. He was. jovial. He was forward-looking. He had a. life he couldn't look back. And then this started to happen, and. again, he couldn't sleep, which makes it. very hard to pass. And then he asked to.

see his daughter. And the daughter came to see him, and we. were all standing there, and he dropped. his walker, and he hugged her, and told. her how much he loved her, and for the. first time, he was honest and said he. was sorry for all the things that he had. done. And he broke down. >> I just want people to forgive me. And please. know that I was sick. >> Mhm. >> at the time when I was doing. certain things that I was. hurting them and their families.

You know, that's all I want. I don't want I don't want them to look. at me as a bad individual because I'm. not. >> And so, he was released finally from all. this that he had been carrying, and then. he was able to sleep. She stayed at his. bedside, and he passed comfortably. >> Yeah, and in that reunion, she said, "I. don't even care about all this stuff. that stuff.". >> him. >> She forgave him. Yeah. A lot of people. are still in the end looking for. forgiveness if they feel and it's hard. for them to pass without it. >> Absolutely. >> Yes. Dr. Kerr had a patient named Jean.

who he interviewed before she passed and. let's watch Jean's sharing what happened. in her end-of-life visitations. >> I was laying in bed. and people were walking very slowly by. me. The right-hand side I didn't know, but. they were all very friendly and they. touched my arm or my.

hand when they went by. And but the other side were people that. I knew. My mom and dad were there. Everybody I knew that was dead was. there. And they passed and did the same thing. Boy, I remember seeing every. piece of their face and. I mean, I know that was my mom and dad. and uncle and my brother-in-law. I have. seen my mother. recently more. I can't say that my.

mother and I got along all those years. But we made up for it at the end. And when I told my family that. I was happy about it and that's what. they asked. How does it make you feel? Well, I feel. good about it. >> Wow. Jean's daughter Julie now joins us. Welcome, Julie. Tell us more about your. mother's experience. Hi, welcome. >> Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for talking about my mom. >> We want to hear about it. So, tell us.

more about that moment we just saw. >> Yeah, so about about two to four months. before my mother died, she shared with. me that she had been having visions. seeing her mom. around her apartment and uh her mother. had died 30 years ago. So, in this particular situation, Mom. and I were sitting down the um the sofa. having a conversation, and she said, "You know, Jill, I want to tell you.

something, but I'm afraid you're going. to think I'm crazy.". And uh I had no, "Tell me, tell me. anything. Tell me anything." And she. said that her mother was sitting in the. chair across the room. And it was just a. statement, not, "I think she is. She. might be." But no, "Mom is sitting in. the chair across the room. And um. she is waiting for me. And she wants me to know. that she's going to be there for me.".

>> What did you think when she first told. you that? >> You know, I am so glad that I didn't say. anything at first. >> Mhm. >> Uh because I didn't know how to react. But I took the cues from her. I. listened, and I let her explain more. about it. And once I saw that it made. her feel calm and peaceful and very good. [clears throat] about the experience, then I felt good. And my family felt.

good about it. >> How should we re- react? There are many. of you who are watching us and listening. to us right now. You're going to be in. this situation where you are in the. space with a loved one who has a. visitation or has a end-of-life dream as. we're we're we're we're discussing here. And what should the reaction be? Just to. go along with it and not say, "Oh, no, Mom, that can't be.". >> It's really part of the reason we did. this work is that dying is isolating and. lonely. >> Yeah.

>> And there's some data that without. validation, people keep this to. themselves for fear of ridicule. >> Yeah. >> So. >> your mom said, "You're going to think. I'm crazy.". >> So, not acknowledging it and not. normalizing it actually is just further. isolating. So it comes Some people are. enormously relieved when you tell them, "Oh no, no, this is normal." And they. go, "Thank goodness.". >> Yeah. >> Um but in her case, it's so fascinating. She was just so classic. It was vivid, right? Recalled in detail. And normally. seeing deceased people would be a thing.

of nightmares, and she's perfectly at. peace. >> Oh, no, I saw them all. She said they. were all right here. >> The other thing is. again, this idea of addressing an injury. um or a wound for having lived. And in. her case, there was some issue with her. mother. >> Mhm. >> And that got addressed uh towards the. end within these experiences. And that. gave her the peace that she needed. >> Mhm. You believe, Julie, that your mom. had an awakening before she passed, correct? What happened? >> Yes, about 10 to 12 days before she.

died, uh she went into a a coma-like state. She was She was unresponsive. Her Her. body was shutting down. She hadn't had. anything to eat or drink in several. days. And family was around, and we were. just being with her and um saying our. goodbyes. And she woke up. It was amazing. She. she opened her eyes. And she smiled this beautiful smile.

And. um. >> Was she alert? >> kind of She alert? >> Yes. She recognized all of us. She was. clear. She let us know that she loved. us. At the time, she couldn't say a. whole lot. She couldn't speak more than. one or two words, but she She hugged her. best friend. She said goodbye to her. sister. It was truly lovely and such a. gift and blessing to our family. >> Aw. And how soon.

>> And she died the next day. >> Okay, that's what I was going to ask. Thank you so much for sharing and. talking about your mother. Yeah, thank. you for being here with us. >> And thank you for having me. >> Thank you, Julie. So, you write that. patients describe this end-of-life. experiences as one of the most awake and. alert and present they've ever they've. ever been. >> Yeah, yeah, one of the things you take. away from watching is one the absence of. fear like you saw with Genie, complete. absence of fear. The other is they.

struggle many times to find language for. the clarity and the color and the. vividness. And again, nothing said, but. so much there. The detail seems to be to. be very much alive and present for them. >> Yes. >> Yeah, and it feels virtual. Um, and that's why we I think I struggle. with this dream. It doesn't seem distant. and tangential. It seems near. >> Right, it's near. >> In her she had case she had something. that's very well known called terminal. lucidity where all of a sudden somebody. wakes up. And you know, one of the. things changes that.

we we we can rekindle or unlock our. memory. um with certain stimulus. For example, you're listening to an old song and you. remember flashback to high school at a. dance. So, whether these sort of dreams. are kindling memory and driving. wakefulness and recall and people will. plug in. But again, she did what she. needed to do to close her life, which. was to say goodbye. >> One of the things that I I read is that. you believe that these end-of-life. experiences help the dying to address.

life in its entirety. How so? >> Oh, I just think, you know, we've all. been harmed for having lived. Um, whether it's regret or loss. Um, it it is something's there and. um I'm just so touched that uh so much. of that in the process of living. it. lingers, but at the end it often comes. around and gets healed. So, the physical. wounds aren't healed, but these kind of. psychic wounds um are tended to in.

remarkable ways. Women who have lost. children, vets who have had trouble with. survivor's guilt, very near the end of. their life, you know, they're granted. this kind of peace. Again, this idea of. being made whole. >> And is that what the dying are seeking? A wholeness and a forgiveness? >> Yeah, I think so. You know, we we did an. interesting study where we looked at. >> What if you haven't done anything? I. don't know what I'd be asking to be. forgiven for. >> Maybe not. >> Yeah. >> But but you might have you certainly. carry loss.

>> Yeah. >> You've lost people who are are lingering. in your heart and they come back to you. >> Yes. >> Um, and so that that's a form of. healing. And we did a study where we. looked at. whether looked at dying as. post-traumatic growth to see whether. there was positive changes in dying. And. in fact, you are gaining insight and you. are growing spiritually. The kind of. take home is you don't stop living. because you're dying and in fact, there's profound living within dying. like Genie experienced. >> Well, I know you do, as I said to you,

you're doing the Lord's work. You're. handling, you know, multiple patients at. one time. And so to take the time. to sit down and write a book about it. means you want to share it, this. information in this book, Death is but a. Dream. You want to share it because you. want the world to know what? >> Well, the intention has changed. It was. originally to help doctors and I was. holding the wrong end of the stick. >> Right.

>> Um, I I don't see a lot of change in. that direction. >> Right. >> medicine's medicine's ever more. transactional. Um, it's it's diluted, it's fragmented, um, and it's not whole person care. Um, but what has changed. >> You weren't able to get through to the. doctors. So now you're just speaking to. us regular folks. >> you know, the. society, our culture doesn't want the. doctor's death anymore. They want their. own experience. They want their voice to. matter. They don't want a hospitalized. death. They don't want an. institutionalized death. They want to be.

with their loved ones. They want to be. at home. So, I think that the future. patients, those of us who will be there, um are are having a different. experience. >> Are having a different experience. >> Yes. Yeah, one in which they have a say. >> And so, for those of us who are in a. position There are so many people who. are listening who are either caregivers. or will be caregivers in their lifetime. um for end of end of life experiences. for their family members. And you want.

them to know what? >> Dying is progressive sleep. And it's. >> Dying is progressive sleep. >> And and in that state, it makes sense. What matters to you from diagnosis to. death is going to change. And it's. natural that as you get closer to the. end, you're going to reflect on what. mattered most to you. And our greatest achievement our It's. our relationships. You're going to. return back to love. It's love that. endures. >> Mhm. >> And you know, the expression, you know, fighting the dying of the light, they're. not fighting against. They're actually. fighting towards. They're fighting.

towards trying to get back to those. they've loved and they've lost. >> Yes, and you realized uh later in life. that you are in this work because of. your experience with your father. Tell. us about that. >> Mhm. Yeah, I The last time I saw my dad, I was 12. And he was in one of these. states. And um we fished every year up. north in Canada. And he was getting me. ready to go on a plane. to go uh up north. And that's the last. time I saw him.

>> Mhm. >> So, I was having an aversion to this. whole thing. And I ended up in this work. more or less by accident. I was just. moonlighting at hospice while I was a. cardiology fellow. And I'm seeing these. patients, and the first time as a. physician, I'm not allowed to sign off. I actually have to be a comforter and be. present. And I saw what I had seen as a. kid. And I didn't. >> Of your father? >> Yeah. You know, and and I and I I um. understand it. I I still don't know. where it comes from, but I don't know. where love comes from, but I understood. that it what it meant to the patient and.

I certainly understood what it meant to. their family. So, we got to just learn. to have reverence for it. And that's how I got to this. >> Cuz you experienced the same thing with. those patients that you would experience. the last time you saw your father. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, Dr. Chris Kerr, thank you so much. for being here and for the. life-affirming work that you and all of. your team members do every day, every. day. And for listening to the nurses. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. Death is but a Dream, available. wherever books are sold. We'll see you. back here next time. Thanks, everybody.

As always, I thank you for joining the. Oprah podcast. And if you're a caregiver. at the bedside of a loved one, I hope. you'll take a moment to acknowledge the. sacredness, [music]. the holiness, and profound sense of. living that comes with the dying. experience. And if this conversation. resonated with you, I encourage you. [music] to get your own copy of Death is. but a Dream. The stories in this book. will reframe your understanding of. life's final journey. To buy a copy, simply scan the [music] QR code that's. right there on your screen. Our.

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