Bruce Holsinger: "Culpability" | Oprah's Book Club

[music]. Hey audience. [cheering]. Hey, hey, hey. Bruce Holsinger. All right. How was sleep, Bruce? These. are your people. These are your people who have read your. book. Didn't you love this book? Yes. Oh my god, [music] that Alice, honey. child. [laughter]. Okay, so for my 116th. book club, it is a scorching summer. page-turner and a tense family drama,

wouldn't you say? A lot of tension in. that car. It's a thrilling read to bring. with you to the beach or the pool or on. a family trip. I'm telling you, I'm. taking a family trip. I've already. ordered eight copies of this book. Everybody has to read it and then we. discuss it at dinner. That's what we're. going to be doing. It's called. Culpability by award-winning author. Bruce Holsinger. Now, I love the. eye-catching waterfront cover that. captures the essence of the story. So, whoever designed this, bravo to you. But, Culpability, I have to tell you, is.

a modern tale for our times tackling an. issue that we're just barely beginning. to grapple with, AI. Now, it's going to. give people so much to think about. The. second I finished it, I called Bruce. Hello. Bruce? Yes. Oprah Winfrey calling you right now. He. didn't believe it was me. Oprah? Hi. Hi. [laughter]. Who would? Yeah. I'm calling about Culpability.

I just read it. and uh I want to choose it as my summer. read for 2025. Thank you so much, Oprah. I I I'm. shaking. I I'm. [snorts]. Oh. I welcome you to Starbucks and the book. club. Thank you so much, Oprah. I'm so excited. I said I'm so excited. for everybody to read this book. So, I. want to ask the audience, what did you. think? What did you think of the book? So good, right? Okay. All right. Okay.

Christine, where are you? Tell us what you thought. Um yeah, I think it was super. thought-provoking. I'm a new mom, and so. I it really gave me a lot to think about. in terms of how I want to approach. technology. I've thought about sort of. the obvious screen time, cell phones, but it opened my eyes to how many blind. spots I have with emerging technology. like AI. Yeah, we all do, I think. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Okay, Manny, how about. you? Hi. So, for me, I thought, you know, AI. is such a relevant topic, obviously, and.

it's coming at us so quickly, but it can. feel abstract and kind of hard to even. wrap our minds around. So, that. juxtaposed with this family that had. very family-like tendencies that I could. know them, you could know them, it. really humanized the conversation and. made me think about it deeper. Wonderful. Thank you. Chrissy? I think for me, it's um. it's the human experience of this. generation. And what sits with me after you know, after reading it is I just Alice is in. my heart, and I think about where's.

Alice later in life. And and I think. about that related to my nephew who's 16. right now, and what's his generation. going to be like? So, Well, I have to tell you all, Chrissy. and I work out together, and we're in. the gym, and I was telling her, she. said, "What's going on with you?" And I. said, "Oh god, I've read seven books. I. can't find a book for summer." And she. said, "Oh, I may have something for. you." And she comes the next day, and. she hands me this book. And usually when. people hand me a book, I'm like, "Okay, good. Okay.". [laughter]. But I actually read it overnight, so I.

thank you, Chrissy. That Chrissy is the. reason I'm here with this book. Okay. So, this is your fifth fiction book, and. you also teach at the University of. Virginia, and I hear you dedicated this. to your students. Why? Thank you for noticing that. My students. are, you know, at the heart of what I. do, I think. And they've taught I often. think that my students, whether they're. undergraduate students who are taking my. literature survey from Beowulf to. Milton, or they're students that I teach. in fiction writing classes at our local.

nonprofit in Charlottesville, which is. called WriterHouse, um or graduate. students, um and I'm working with them. on their dissertations, I always feel. like they teach me more than I teach. them, and that the experience of working. with students of so many different ages. and backgrounds, um teaches me about the. world, teaches me about books, about the. literature that I thought I knew. Um and. I realized, you know, as I was putting. this the final touches on Culpability, is that I hadn't uh dedicated a book to. my students yet, to any of my students,

let alone to all of them. So, it felt. like that what I wanted to do. So, do when you were putting the final. touches on it, did you know it was going. to be Culpability? Did you always have. that name? No, I didn't. Oh, it was called a lot of. different things, and I I've now. repressed all the other titles because. obviously this is what this is what. And. I chose that word in the the the book. has that um. sense of looking at problems of moral. responsibility, who's at fault, who's. responsible. Um and in in law and in.

history, I think the word culpability. has such an interesting resonance about. um you know, you can be culpable without. being being guilty. You can be guilty. without being culpable. So, I wanted. that that uh kind of that slightly. ambivalent sense of of our. responsibility for what we do and don't. do. Yeah, I think I think it was actually. the perfect word because everybody in. the end was. culpable. Indeed. Yes. Okay, so Culpability is a family.

drama told through the lens of a husband. and father, Noah, and it's about living. with the technology confronting us. today, artificial intelligence, self-driving cars, chatbot friends, autonomous drones, and smart homes. So, what gave you the idea to tell this. story, to write about what happens. through this family? Well, this this story, this novel began. with the setting actually, and that's. not usually the way that I operate. Often, when I begin a novel, I'll I'll.

have a character that I imagine and. cling onto or a situation in life that I. want to explore or a moral arc or just a. plot. In this case, it really was the. setting and that it was the first summer. of the pandemic. Mhm. And um our family wanted to get out of. Charlottesville for a little while. So, we Airbnb'd this house on the Northern. Neck of Virginia, right near the. Chesapeake Bay. It was a house on an. inlet. There were kayaks and I went out. kayaking with my sons the first day.

there and on the way out of the cove at. the point, you know, it's a pretty. rustic rural area and there was this. absolutely gleaming compound with a fake. lighthouse, with a fake beach, with a. pristine lawn, um and and this this what. was probably once a a beautiful old. charming farmhouse that was renovated to. the teeth. And as we were kayaking back. in, I heard this noise. If you've read. the first part of the book, Yeah. um you know what that noise is and this. helicopter lands on a helipad. And a.

couple of folks get out and we just. kayak past. I just thought that was a. little bit weird. Nothing happened and. there was this. the the plot that you read did not. unfold with my family, thank God, over. the course of that week. But um that got. into my head. It registered and you you said like a. like a brainworm and over the next few. years. the way authors think? Like I just I. love this. Yeah, I love the process. And it just, you know, that the story. layered itself in, right? It's then I. added um I thought, you know, where is. that where is that going to take place? What's going to happen? Um so, it really.

did begin with the setting, which. becomes kind of a character in the novel. and and everything else. fell into place once I I figured out. what I wanted to do. How long did it take you to write it? From beginning to end, probably about a. year and a half. And then there was a. revision process, another revision. process. Um as as. where the story was going when you. started? Did you know that it was going. to have the ending that it had? No, I'm not a I'm not an outliner. Yeah. I often get myself into trouble for. that. I have a lot of false starts. Um I.

write that it's there are plotters and. pantsers like seat of your pants or a. careful plotter. I'm definitely a. pantser. I I am writing um I often have. no idea where things are going to go and. then at the end there's there's too many. So as the writer, did the story start. where you started it? Y- uh no, actually the very beginning uh. the first version, it started with the. family going down to the to the Northern. Neck, yeah, to the Bay. And then there. was a lot of backstory shoveled in after.

that. And then I realized I I really. want to start with the accident. Um so. instead of getting that as backstory, you get it right up front. You get it in. the first chapter. So there's no mystery. about, you know, how the book begins. you do an incredible job of challenging. the reader. with uh the the moral and ethical. dilemmas around artificial intelligence. And I read that you spent 3 years. researching this book. And in that. research, who did you talk to and what. surprised you? I talked to people who work on the.

ethics of AI. I have a friend in the law. school at UVA who works on algorithmic. bias. I talked to her. I talked to some. lawyers at a few tech companies. I. talked to people working with the. machinery of AI. Um and I also just did. a lot of reading um as I do for for all. of my research. And I I suppose one of. the biggest surprises for me, well, there's a few. Um. One is that everybody that you talk to. in AI, and you've probably already had. this experience, has a P-doom number. Do.

you know what this is? P-doom is a number from it can be from 1. to 10 or it can be from one to 100. It's. It's your percentage of certainty that. AI will lead to human extinction. Um so, you talk to someone I I haven't. talked to him, but people like Sam. Altman or the guys who run the podcast. Hard Fork, they all have a P Doom. number. And most people's these days, I'm just to reassure you, are pretty. low. Um but but it is out there. Um and then then a few other things.

surprised me. One of them is that is how uh how many. different views there are among experts. in the field about where this is going. Um you have minimizers, people who you. know, just kind of shrug it off and. think, "Oh, large language models like. chat GPT, it's just glorified auto. complete." Um and we don't really need. to worry about it. Um except in as far. as it's, you know, destroying the. environment and creating all kinds of. bias and misinformation. Um and then. there are people on the other end of the.

spectrum who look at something like. autonomous warfare and think, "You know, we need to watch out. This is coming and. it's coming now." So, there's a real. just a spectrum of views about where. we're going, where we are. Well, we don't want to give away too. much of the plot, especially that. jaw-dropping twist at the very end. Uh. A lot A lot of people didn't see that. coming. I knew something was coming. I didn't know that was coming. [laughter]. Uh. And but my hope is that you will buy. Compobility, and you will read the book.

and get a copy for a friend because. you're going to want to talk about it. with somebody afterwards. And you're. going to want to call somebody. I called. Bruce. So, will you set up the story for. us? The call? Yeah, no, the the the book. [laughter]. Yeah. Call's fine. I can talk about the call all day. [laughter]. I've only talked about it to two people. so far, but uh. Yeah, so so the book um the book begins. when a family of five is driving a.

minivan or driving a semi-autonomous. vehicle down for a a lacrosse tournament. in Delaware. And the older son, the. older child in the family, Charlie, is. at the wheel, um but he's not really. driving. Um his dad is sitting next to. him. He's on his laptop trying to finish. a memo. Um in the backs are uh his. Charlie's sisters and his mom. So his. his his sisters are on their phones. doing various things. And then his mom. is writing in her notebook. Um her mom.

is named Lorelei, and she's kind of I. think the beating heart of the book. Um. she's uh a really. you know, the love of Noah's life, but. also the great mystery of his life. And. she's uh a world-leading expert on the. ethics of artificial intelligence. And. her life, in some ways her career, is is. a real mystery to Noah. And um what. happens in the car, there's this. horrible accident. The minivan uh. collides head-on with another car coming.

in the opposite direction, um and it. kills an elderly couple in the in the. other car. That happens fairly on, so we're not. giving anything. It happens at the very beginning. Yeah. Um even really in the first chapter. And. from that moment on, the novel unfolds. into. I think a kind of intricate plot. involving all the different characters, but we see it mostly through Noah's. point of view. Um and we we're we're. exploring throughout the novel. questions of responsibility. Who is.

culpable for this accident or what is. culpable for this accident? And how does. it involve the personalities and actions. and faults and weaknesses of these. various characters, but also how does it. involve that autonomous mind behind the. wheel, um which Noah is thinking about right. before the accident happens. Well, I thought it was so interesting. How How you knew early on that Alice was. talking to the chatbot? And then how many of you took took a.

while to figure it out? Okay, that's good. You know, a lot of. people are using AI chatbots now for. therapy. Oh, yeah. You obviously knew that. Oh, yeah, adolescents, too. Yes, adolescents, too. I I recently. heard a woman say that she uses it as. her therapist and ask it who am I. without my accomplishments. Yeah. And that the answer that she received. led her on a path of self-discovery that. she hadn't experienced in all these. years talking to real therapists.

Yeah. I find that fascinating. It is fascinating. That a chatbot knows more about you than. your own therapist. Or yourself, right? It knows It knows. more about you than you know, right? And. that I'll tell you that since you asked. the the research question, that's one. bit of research that I was a little bit. afraid to do. I did not sign up for an. AI. therapist. Yes. Cuz I was just a little worried about. what you know, I read a lot about what I. listened to some a lot of podcasts. I. listened to some transcripts of those. sessions, but I didn't go there myself.

I was just a little. little worried about what would happen. You were afraid of [clears throat] what. the what what. Yeah. would happen. Yeah, what what I would learn about. myself, you know, yeah. Okay, so let's bring in the audience. They've all read Cobell ability and have. a lot of questions for Bruce. Where's Angela? I'm right here. Hi, Angela. Hi, Angela. Hi. So, Bruce, I surprised myself and I. connected with Blair. And so my my question is did you intend. to depict Blair as a good chatbot? Was.

that intentional? Oh, great question. Yeah, so Blair is. the chatbot who gets involved with. to Blair? What did you say? It's because Blair was trying to be good. at the end of the day. I first I thought. Blair was a predator, but then actually. it turns out Blair is a chatbot trying. to be good. Yeah, okay. So, you related to the good. chatbot. Yeah. [laughter]. I wasn't sure Blair is not going to turn. on her later on. I mean, I'm thinking. Blair's not good forever. That's what I. thought. But good for you though. And Ken. [laughter]. And then it's it's a wonderful question.

cuz can these algorithms be good? And. what does good mean in human terms, right? And. Blair is following. a pattern, right? That's her therapy. Um. at heart. That's why at one point Alice. calls her out and says, "What am I doing. talking to a chatbot?" And what does. Blair say? "Technically, I'm a large. language model, Alice.". Yes. But so Blair has a little bit of an. edge, too, I think. And I I wanted to.

depict her {slash} it um not not as a. monster, not as someone who's. manipulative, but as someone who, if not. good in herself, is trying to make Alice. good. Is trying to make Alice better, right? And in that sense, it fits in. with Lorelei's project in her life to. make AI good, to make it more. responsible. But maybe. Yeah, yes and no, I suppose is the. honest answer to your question. So Tim, I know you've been following the.

book club and you read so many of our. books. Thank you for being here. Thank you. What you had a question about this this. idea of goodness, right? Yeah, I mean, from the very first page, Bruce, my brain was reeling and it is. about this idea of goodness. So, she was interested in how we learn. to be good. Lorelei wanted to train. machines to be good in the same way we. train ourselves and I immediately had to. shut the book and think, "Whose. definition of goodness would we be. using? Who defines what goodness means?". Well, people have been asking that. question for 3,000 years, right?

Since ancient Greek philosophy. to answer it here at Starburns. it here today. This book will tell you. [laughter]. everything you need to know about how to. be good. Um so, Lorelei is struggling. with that, of course, throughout her. career, throughout her work with. algorithms, um throughout her her her. teaching life and her research. And, you. know, there's so many different ethical. models that that. just in the history of philosophy. and in practical applied philosophy. And.

we see a number of them come up in the. book. But the great thing about fiction is you. don't have to decide, right? You don't. have to decide who gets to decide what. is goodness, right? The characters are. all exploring that from their own. different angles. Um the novel is asking. readers to ponder that in their own. lives. Um. So, you know, what what I think you can. do though with culpability if you want. to. look at it this way is you could find. those moments of goodness in the novel, right? Those moments when characters are.

reaching out to each other despite the. bitterness between siblings, despite. these clashes between Noah and Lorelei, you know, finding these these moments of. goodness to cling to. and maybe learn something from them. I. know that's one of the ways that I read. fiction. Okay. Inside the novel there is a book. within a book. Noah's wife, Lorelei, is. a world-famous philosopher and a leader. in AI as we've said. And throughout the. book we read excerpts from her book. called Silicon Souls on the culpability.

of artificial minds. And here's one of. those thought-provoking passages. Lorelei writes, "Like our children, our. intelligent machines often break rules. and disobey commands. The danger comes. when we start to assume that such. behavior is intentional when we regard. an algorithm as a willful child. Such. habits reflect a common and. understandable tendency to humanize. artificial intelligence.

Chatbots, voice assistants, smart home. interfaces, these systems are designed. to respond in recognizably human ways. We give them names like Siri and Alexa. We speak to them as if they share our. worldview or care about our feelings and. futures. So, is that the slippery slope. because AI can think we think it's. thinking and we humans are fooled into. thinking that it can or should be caring.

about us. Yeah, exactly Aubrey. It it. we think it thinks like us. We think. when it does things, it's doing things. like us. We give it our names. We give. it personalities. We. People are falling in love with it, you. know. People are yeah, are falling in love and. there's there's been you know, movies. about that and novels. Yes. [laughter]. Somebody back there is is falling in. love with a chatbot. Have to figure out who that is. Um. Um but yes, and you know, with that the.

technical term that I that Lorelei uses. for that is anthropomorphic projection, right? We are imagining that these. chatbots are humans and we're. interacting them with them in that way, you know, and think of the way that Noah. deals with. the. the smart home, right? Um and and think. of the way that. Alice interacts with Blair, right? They. we we want them to be humans and. therefore we.

we act like they're humans and in some. ways even I think and and going back to. your question about. in a lot of families now Alexa's like a. part of the family. Yeah, Alexa Alexa plays music for us. What could be gooder than that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I you know, it's it's like. they I think even researchers have this. stumbling block where they they want to. humanize this. all these AIs, but. one of the one of the other excerpts. from Lorelei's book. is where she talks about the AIs as cold.

and calculating and indifferent, right? And that indifference can be masked as. care. and as goodness and as compassion. That's one of the things I find the most. frightening. Do you think we're ready to embrace. self-driving cars? We already have. I think I think we're there. Yeah, you look you go around San. Francisco, you can summon a Waymo. I was going to say. driverless taxi. There are when you're. driving down interstates, driverless. semi-trucks right now. Not many of them.

yet. But they're coming. More and more. are coming. There was a big article in. the New York Times about Yemen. Driverless semi-trucks. Driverless semi-trucks. And you can go. and you can buy a luxury car right now. with autonomous driving mode or. hands-free driving. as one of the features. It's part of the. trim package, right? In a lot of cars. right now. So, that's coming whether we. like it or not. know I can [laughter] I can see that. that is that is the future. Yeah. And I can see all the people saying,

"No, I'd never drive that." Same people. are saying, "I'm going to stick with my. horse.". Yeah, exactly. [laughter]. That's right. horses yet. Yeah, we don't. Actually, we do. What am. I saying? I'm. I'm telling you that automobile is a. terrible thing. Yeah. Yes, ma'am. Hi, Oprah. So happy to be here. Bruce, I. have a question around privilege. I. thought it was such an important part of. the story, how it showed up in the AI that people. had access to and what they had to bear.

with that technology and those choices. of the AI. When you were talking about Yemen and. things like that with the drones. Yes. Or even just the their everyday life, how AI and privilege was helping drive. their decisions that they were making, whether it was the young child drinking. or kind of their approach to what was. going on in the house. So, question for. you is with privilege, how did you use. that to kind of shape the decisions that.

people could make. or. got to avoid in their lives. Wonderful question, Shannon. Yeah, privilege is a theme that I have. been completely obsessed with for my. last few novels. I wrote a novel called. The Gifted School that was about and I'm. snowplow parents trying to get their. kids into a magnet school for. exceptionally gifted kids. My last novel. was called The Displacements. It was. about the world's first category 6. hurricane and how one seemingly. privileged family dealt with the.

aftermath of that catastrophe. And then. this book is is looking at I guess. privilege through a number of different. lenses, right? You have Daniel Monet, of. course, the tech billionaire. who is one of the most privileged people. on Earth and is using. using the tools at his disposal to. create these ever-more powerful. algorithms. And we learn later in the. novel, no spoilers, that you know, that. there's a dark purpose behind that. ultimately that Lorelei is somehow. implicated in. Um And then, you know, Noah, of course,

comes from an unprivileged background. and he's dealing with a much more, you. know, blue-blooded Lorelei and her. family. And so he filters his experience in part. through that category, right? And and. his his awareness of the differences. He's always feeling less than. Always feeling less than, yes, exactly. From the very beginning, even from his. wedding day, Yeah. right? When his sister-in-law. puts him down a little bit. So, yeah, so. privilege is. a theme that that you'll find running. through all of all of what I write.

Yeah, thank you for the question, though. There's a moment in the book when. Lorelei confronts her husband who thinks. that she's having an affair. Mhm. And one of the things she says is, "You. love me, I know that. You care about me. You want what's best for me, for our. marriage, for our kids. Of course, you. do. But sometimes the way you look at. me, it makes me feel like you think I'm. a freak or some kind of alien or even an. AI. Like you're afraid of what you'll. find if you look too hard. You think. many people are afraid to look too hard. at AI? I think so. Yes, we're Yeah, cuz it's.

it's one of the paradoxes of AI is it's. right in front of our eyes, right? It's. right there and it's. it's interacting with us all the time. Pick up your phone when this is done and. there'll be an AI there probably looking. at you just as more than you're looking. at it. Um and in the novel I I wanted to. think about. in that that moment in and that came to. me very late in the revision process. I can see you all cuz everybody's. thinking cuz we're I think you can think.

about that question, right? That I'm so. glad that landed with you. [laughter]. We all are afraid to think about it, to. look at it too hard cuz of the arguments. on both sides. But we also know it's. coming. That part of it is we know it's. coming and there's absolutely nothing we. can do about it. And and Noah is looking at Lorelai and. and one of the reasons she feels so. self-conscious in that passage is she. knows that she's kind of a mystery, kind.

of a freak to Noah, right? In his eyes. even though he's the one person in the. world who loves her most and um. But she feels superior. You got to admit. she feels superior. I don't know. Do you think. Oh yes, she does. I have failed. I. She [laughter] does. She Don't you think. she feels superior? Or she does, huh? Her sister does. Her sister does, exactly. Thank you. You don't think she does? I think she does.

No. I think she feels misunderstood. Misunderstood, exactly. Yeah. You think she feels misunderstood? Okay. [laughter]. Tell me sister, yes. Well, tell me tell tell me why you think. she feels misunderstood. Why I do? Yeah. You're the one that said that. though. So but you tell me why you said. you don't think. I don't think so and especially don't. she felt superior? I don't think she felt superior and I. think kind of towards the end it really. comes out that she is. actually.

puts Noah up more on a pedestal like you. are it. Like you are you are allowing me. to be who I am and therefore I am not. indebted but I. I'm I'm loving you for loving you the. way I am. You feel that, okay. And and he not only. puts her on a pedestal but he makes her. the pedestal or she makes him the.

pedestal, right? And I you know that. when I when I wrote those sentences I. cuz all along I was and I a few early. readers thought why is she into him. again? Now why is she into. [laughter]. Yes. And so I had to build his personality. more. Uh you know, I had to sharpen it a bit. and um. and that moment you know is that that. really was an expression of love from. her to him. It finally opened his eyes. to what she sees in him and what he. means to her and how much he's accepted. that over the years, right? Okay.

I can hear that. Yeah. [laughter]. Thank you. You're skeptical. I had another opinion but I I can. receive. I'm open-minded. what readers are for, right? That's what reading is about. Yeah. Stephanie, you have a question. Yes, I do. Um I related so much to all. the different family dynamics in the. book and I was just curious if Noah and. Lorelai's relationship was based at all. on your own marriage and if the. different personalities of the children. was anyone in the family based on your. own personal life? Yeah, can we cut?

[laughter]. Um well, I would say that I have a a. really brilliant and very perceptive. wife who reads everything for me and. will definitely you know, look into my. soul the way Lorelai looks into Noah's. as well. So, there there's a sense of. that of, you know, being known and being. called out for things within your your. family. My sons, too, are there's definitely. autobiographical elements there. They.

were both college athletes and I was a. kind of psycho soccer dad for a long. part of my my life with it when they. were growing up. But, they also call me. out on things. They they they really. know me often better than I know myself. And so, those um. you know, those you know, we draw when. we write a novel, we're drawing from so. many different aspects of our lives and. and sometimes those that comes home to. roost a little bit, right? And and so,

yes, certainly there's always going to. be autobiographical elements, I think. You write that a family is like an. algorithm. Mhm. This is a major theme in the book. Explain what you mean by that. Yes. Now, that comes from Noah. remembering Lorelei saying that, right? A family is like an algorithm. Um. why is that? It's in Lorelei's eyes, a. family, you know, works works in kind of. predictable patterns. Um it goes back to.

your questions. You you know your kids, you know your spouse. You know how. they're going to act in certain. circumstances. If you can just keep the. wheels humming along, yeah, you know, just keep the variables um. churning along with the constants, uh. you know, a family is like an algorithm. And then, the way the prologue ends, a. family is like an algorithm. A family is. like an algorithm until it isn't. Right? And that's the the dark way that the. prologue begins ends as the as the way, you know, we launch into the book.

knowing that something is coming. Did you know. when you started writing it. even before you knew it was culpability. that everybody in the van would have. something to do with what was happening. Yes, so that. Yes, absolutely. And that was the kind. of tapestry of the book, right? It was. the knowing that everyone in that van. had some role to play. in this horrific accident. Um. and then then it was a question of, you. know, choosing which strands to pull,

which to tug more tightly. And then as I. I went along just um. you know, creating the the whole novel, it you know, I started to see it from. from a a distance and kind of understand. everyone's role. And then it was a. matter of of letting the plot and the. characters catch up with each other. Um and and so that the whole thing would. feel a kind of inevitable at the end. And you had to get them to the summer. place, the North End. You Why?

Why did I have to get them there? Well, that particular place, like I was. saying that that the setting was was, you know, boring into my mind all along. And I wanted to get them there on a car. trip safely, right? Um and that's And so. in some ways the novel has a second. beginning. Um you know, a a month or so after the. hospital, after, you know, when they. were recovering from their injuries. They're in the car together again. Not. that car, a different car. Um and. they're on their way to recover. And. that part of the setting, I think the.

psychology of the setting was this is. about recovery. This is about. resilience. This is about where we go. for a while. um to heal. And so it was, you know, a place that. that was really important for my family, um even just those few days on the. Northern Neck. Um. we haven't been back since, but I. remember it so so clearly and and how. um how good that felt just to get away. like that. So. Lorelai. comes to this realization on page 293,

the mother. No one can keep our kids. safe forever, not even you. No matter. how much money we throw at the problem. or how many guards we hire or how many. tracking apps we put on our phones, no. matter how good your algorithm is, we. can't protect them from everything. We. just can't. And I understand that now. better than I ever have before. As a father, how do you feel about. parents protecting their kids from all. of this? Yeah, I think about this so much. I. think about.

you know, what we. the lengths that we go to protect our. kids not just from harm, but from. uncomfortable situations, right? The. great phrase is snowplow parenting, right? We'll clear the way in front of. them or we're helicopter parents, we'll. hover over them to make sure everything. is okay, to make sure that they have. what they need. Um, and you know, my. kids now are 22 and 25 and I'm still. doing it. Um, just making sure that. everything is okay. Um, wanting to. protect, wanting to defend. And in the.

case here of Charlie, you know, Noah. would do anything. um, to protect Charlie from culpability, from his own culpability, right? That's. one of the tension points in the novel. is is that relationship between father. and son and and you can, you know, I. hope you can feel it on the page, the. kind of Noah's sort of bristling with. worry about his son. Britain is a college counselor for high. school. You have a question, Britain? Yeah, so I in my performance evaluation. last spring, my boss said he wants me to.

embrace AI and find ways to help it. enhance my work. And so one of the. things I do is I write recommendation. letters for students and I tried and it. felt icky to me. So I used some AI in. some other ways. I enhanced a PowerPoint. presentation. I used it to send a. scathing email to my son's principal at. his school. Do you have it with you? I want to read. it. Oh, it's so good. It is so good. She. never replied. to it? Write something scathing? Yeah, I said make me sound more. professional, but also show that I'm. irritated. And it I a beautiful job. It.

was great. Okay. Anyhow, as I'm working with students and I'm. telling them do not use chat GPT to. write your college essay, but then I'm. also dabbling in it. Where is the line. there? Where. Uh it's such a great question and our. students, you know, are are every. faculty member I know at University of. Virginia is grappling with this right. now. You know, how do we where do we. draw the line? What is the line? Um and. are we being hypocrites if we're using. it to generate administrative prose like.

an assessment report, right? Um which no. one is ever going to accuse of of being. creative. Um but you know, on the other. side there are creative writers, there. are novelists and poets who are. experimenting with large language models. like chat GPT and Claude in really. interesting ways. I don't know if you. know the um Canadian novelist Sheila. Heti. No. Um she wrote this beautiful story in the. New Yorker um. that that where she I think she worked. with Claude. It was kind of an early. adapter of Claude and she fed Claude.

prompts and Claude spit out these. responses. And then in order to finish. the story, she took out all of her. prompts and just published the. responses. And it became this kind of. unforgettable eerie short story. And. there's this brilliant poet Lillian. Yvonne Bertram at University of Maryland. who works with small language models and. uses them to create these really. interesting poems and she's. self-conscious they're both. self-conscious about it about how they. use these models to create. And so, you.

know, between prohibition, no, don't use. it at all and using it to write a story. that appears in the New Yorker. and everything in between, right? That's. where we are right now. um for better or for worse. Well, I want to end our conversation. with this passage on page 309. Towards. the end of the book you write every. accident in a self-driving vehicle is. huge news because it's covered as if a. benevolent robot has killed a human. Meanwhile, some random truck driver.

falls asleep at the wheel and kills a. young couple. Yet, we never once. considered taking all 18-wheelers off. the road. She turns and looks out over. the inlet. I want to believe in humans. I want to believe that even at the last. second, an AI can and should be. overwritten by a knowing human. conscious, by a moral mind with a soul. Now, I'm not so sure there's a place for. algorithms, a bigger and bigger place, but people have to be better, too. They. have to not drink and drive. They have.

to not text behind the wheel. We. shouldn't make these machines because we. want them to be good for us or good. instead of us. We should make them. because they can help us be better. ourselves. Yes. We like that, don't we? You've given us a lot to think about. where we are and where we're going. Where do you think we're going? Hm. Who knows? I I into a future of.

profound unpredictability. If if. anything, that's that's what I've come. to. It's It's a little bit like writing. a novel. I feel like the future of AI. It's like all of us writing this novel. together. Um, and who knows where it's going to. go. Yeah. I thought it was so interesting. when you asked that question about are. are we afraid to look too hard? And. everybody in here agrees we're afraid to. look too hard. Yes. because of what we might find. We thank. you for inviting us to explore and. wrestle with these very challenging.

ideas for for our times and for this. thrilling story. Aren't you Pass it on. to a friend. Now that you've read it, pass it on to a friend. Culpability is. available wherever you buy your books. Audience, thank you for reading the. book, for sharing your time with us, and. your thoughtful questions. When I tell. you this is the perfect summer read. Is. it not? All right. The. You did the perfect summer read. Oh, thank you. Before we go, I want to share that I.

recently published something tailor-made. for you avid readers. So delighted to. tell you about it. It's my Book Lover's. Journal, and here's what's great. Has. over 100 prompts like the first book. that made you feel seen and the book. that reminded you of what matters most. All designed to enhance your reading. experience. It's a great gift for book. lovers, and I hear book clubs are using. it when they meet, which makes me so. happy. I write about some of my favorite. books and first sentences, and it is. available anywhere you buy books. This. audience is going home with a copy. A.

big thanks to our extraordinary partners. at Starbucks for supporting us. There is. no better place for coffee and. conversation. You were saying you Do you. write at Starbucks sometimes? I write in all different coffee shops. I. was I've written half of my novels in. coffee shops over the years, including. Starbucks. a home to you. Absolutely. Go well, everybody. Thanks so much. Hold. on to. so much. Thank you, Oprah. [applause].