Ann Packer: "Some Bright Nowhere" | Oprah's Book Club

Ann is here. How wonderful. >> [applause]. >> Good to see you. You were in one of my. favorite colors, purple. It didn't not. occur [music] to me. >> [laughter]. >> Do you ever make yourself cry with your. own writing? >> [laughter]. >> Cuz I know a lot of people [music] did. >> Embarrassingly, when I read it. afterwards, sometimes. >> You do. Tear up. My 120th. book club selection is Some Bright.

Nowhere by Ann Packer, the beloved Ann. Packer. It's a novel that explores what. happens when a wife's dying request. shatters everything her husband believed. about their 35 years together. Everyone. in our audience has read the book, and I. hear it brought up some strong feelings. for many of you. Diane, where are you? >> Thank you. >> Diane, some strong feelings? Let's hear. it. >> Uh yes, actually, um I've been married. 40 years, and I thought it was really.

interesting in the book how the spouses. could understand each other without. necessarily speaking, and I thought that. was beautiful. But at the same time, then for Claire to exclude her husband. at her most intense time of life, I thought was. almost cruel. Um and it really it hurt. me for Elliot.

So, um a lot of strong feelings, beautiful book. >> Thank you. >> Strong feelings, beautiful book. Edward, where are you? >> Hi. >> Hi. Um so, I lost my grandmother in. 2016, 9 years ago, to a battle with. Alzheimer's. And what I found. interesting was that death in the book. is rather a process than like just one. limited moment in life. And through the. process, we learn that connection is. important, that we all want to be seen, and that love is is important. And at.

the end of it all, that's what matters. Um so, beautiful way of displaying that. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Well, Tondo Dlomo is one of my. daughter girls, a graduate of my school, who is a member of my family. Uh she graduated from my school in South. Africa. I met her when she was 11 going. on 12. Her big dream was to come to America and. become an actress, and that's what she's. pursuing here now. And she reads every. one of my book club picks. I didn't make her do it. >> [laughter]. >> She started doing it on her own. And uh.

so, we want to know what's your take. >> Well, first of all, every time I thought I had a problem. with Elliot and how passive-aggressive. he can be, I would realize my real problem is with. Claire. And how she intellectualizes her way. into strong-arming him every single. time. Emotional, intellectual abilities, and she's just whipping him up into all. sorts of shapes. So, yes, really great book. Not Not a fan of.

Claire. >> [laughter]. >> That's exactly I didn't tell you this, but when I when I called Ann to tell. her, I was actually at the gym, and I. had a the call was set for like 2:00, and I wasn't going to make it home, so I. just called you from the gym. And I said. to her, "I'm choosing this book even though I'm. very annoyed with Claire, and was. annoyed with Claire through half of the. book. I was totally annoyed by her, her. her lack of empathy for Elliot. through this whole process.

But in spite of that, I'm choosing it as. an Oprah's Book Club selection.". So, I want you all to know, just just. set up the plot a little bit. Claire is. nearing the end of her life after an. 8-year struggle with breast cancer. Her. husband, Elliot, who retired early to be. Claire's full-time caregiver. Now, he's. retired, and he's there to take care of. her. Then he's blindsided when Claire. asks him to move out so her two best. women friends can move in and take over.

as caregivers for her last weeks on. Earth. It's a It's a wild moment that. sets the rest of the story in motion. Welcome the beloved Ann Packer. So great. to have you here. As I told you when I. first spoke, I was so annoyed by her. three quarters of the the book. Um What made you come up with this. story? >> So it was actually a scenario I heard. described about people in real life. I. heard there was this woman, she had been.

ill for a long time and was reaching the. end stages of that illness. And her husband was deemed. unsuitable, incapable of seeing her. through the final weeks and months. So her two closest friends moved in and. did the job themselves. And I was It was. There was not a lot of detail in the way. that I was told the story. It was just. sort of this happened. And I thought. wow, it just blew my mind that um.

>> That a woman could do that. >> That any Yeah, that you could just expel. your spouse because they weren't. exactly right for the job, whatever that. was going to be. And um. At first I was. kind of taken with the notion of what. that sort of womanly cocoon of care and. love would feel like. And that stayed. with me for a long time. But at the same. time I was. I kept thinking back to the man. Like. what what was his experience of that.

going to be? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I read that your bestseller, the The Dive From Clausen's Pier, took. 10 years to write and that you wrote the. first draft of this one in four months. Is that true? >> That is true. And I could say I've just. gotten a lot better at my job. >> [laughter]. >> But I think the reason the first book. took so long is that I was. raising kids. >> Yeah. >> And also I hadn't had the experience of.

publishing a lot of books and. learning to feel confident and to know. when they were ready to go. Um and now. that was almost 20 years ago, I feel a. lot more like I know what I want to do. when I write a novel. >> Mhm. >> Um at the same time four months is for a. first draft is. pretty much unheard of for me. >> of for a lot of people. >> I knew I wanted it to be really short. Um I knew how it had to end. And um. >> So you knew the ending before you. started.

>> Well, I knew I knew that it was going to have. to end with the end of her life in some. way. So I was always writing toward that. moment. Um I didn't know at all exactly. how they were going to get there, but I. knew that early in the book she was. going to. ask him to leave so that her friends. could take care of her. >> Mhm. >> And I just um. I don't know. I'd been struggling with a. different book for a while. And when I started writing this one it.

felt really good. And I just worked. hours and hours and hours every day. And. I think that's how the speed happened. >> I read somewhere that you believe that. uh the theme that runs through all your. work is that space between what other. people want or expect of us. versus what we actually want for. ourselves. So why are you interested in that space.

in between? I think that's so. fascinating actually. >> I guess I guess I would say the reason. is that. for me that's almost always what. conflict is going to be about. interpersonal conflict. There's always a. question of Well, if there's conflict, it's because someone has disappointed. somebody. >> Right. >> And why have they done that? >> Well, it's because the person had. another [clears throat] expectation. >> Yeah. And they wanted to. >> that for a moment. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> You're right.

>> Okay. Yeah, it's true, right? >> It is. >> Yeah. And to live your truth, whatever. that might mean, sometimes it's great. for everyone else, and sometimes it's. not. And then you have to. >> so interesting that you say that, Anne, because I tell people all the time, my. girls and other people. sometimes they're calling me for. counseling, that. the reason you were so upset is because. of your expectation. The other person is. just doing what they're doing, and you. had another expectation for it. It. didn't have anything to do with who they. were or what they wanted. And so your.

expectations did not align. So I think. Would you think about [clears throat]. this for a moment, y'all, that your. disappointments in life with other. people is because you expected one. thing, and they did another. >> So trouble in life is expectations. colliding. >> Yes, expectations colliding. Why did you decide I had heard that in. the beginning you were writing from. Claire's point of view, and then you. decided to flip it to Elliot's point of. view. Why? >> So at the beginning, I had an idea of a.

a more expansive novel, and what I. thought I would do was start in Claire's. point of view, move to one friend's. point of view, move on to the second. friend's point of view, and finally get. to the husband's point of view. And when. I was working on that, they had. different names. I had to They were. different characters. So I always have. to. really find the right name for my. characters. So at that point it was Tom. and Jane. And um I wrote Jane's point of. view for 10 pages. I switched to her.

friends, and I just ran out of interest. in it. It didn't compel me the way I. need material to compel me in order to. be able to keep going. >> Mhm. >> And I don't know why it didn't compel. me. I think in retrospect. I wrote another novel about women's. friendship. And so in some way. the terrain felt maybe a little too. familiar. But then I started thinking about the. husband and. how that would be the hardest point of. view to write. And as soon as I realized.

that I was like, okay, that's what I. have to do. Yeah. >> You were. So were you that kind of person as a. kid? You want to take on the hardest. question? >> I would probably say that I think as a. kid. I would. hear the [snorts] hardest question. and then try to break it down, try to. deconstruct the question. >> Yeah, that's so interesting. >> that. >> Yeah. >> Like it just now. >> Just now. >> [laughter]. >> Which I didn't plan. >> We wanted to hear from people who've.

gone through a similar experience as. Elliot and we have Kyle here in our. audience. Kyle, where are you? >> I'm right here. >> Hi. >> Hi everyone. I'm Kyle Woody and. my story is essentially Elliot's only I. was younger. In 2011 my wife Sarah was. 34, I was 33. Our two sons were four and one. And Sarah was diagnosed with stage four. colon cancer. We expected she had two years at.

diagnosis. She had almost nine. For me reading Elliot's story, it made. me feel like I'd stepped into a time. machine. >> Mhm. >> Um. how scared. >> for you, too? >> Absolutely. >> I would think the stream would be. triggering if you've lived it. >> It was uh. you know how scared he was? >> Yeah. >> How. isolated. how. um.

ill-equipped. insecure. >> Mhm. >> And how. throughout it, there was this unspoken. pressure. that. I felt and and I and I read in in your. work with Elliot to project the opposite. of all those things. >> Mhm. >> And I also understood how Elliot felt. when Claire asked him to leave because. Sarah asked me for a divorce in 2016.

>> While you were taking care of her? >> Yes. >> Oh my gosh. Wow. >> And. we remained close. >> How? >> After. It was a very difficult It was a very. difficult time. Um and that wasn't that closeness wasn't. immediate. You know, I remember she. dumped me on a Friday. uh before Father's Day. But we remained close and and I actually. had opportunities to care for her.

um. after the divorce um when her boyfriend. Doug needed a break. >> Okay, wait wait wait wait wait wait. [laughter]. Wait just a minute here. So, did she. have the boyfriend before you were. taking care of her? >> No. >> So, she was diagnosed. >> Yep. >> You started to take care of her as her. husband. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And you had been her husband for. how long? How long had you all been. married? >> For about 6 years. >> Okay.

>> Yep. >> And then she's diagnosed. Then you. become the caregiver. >> Yes. >> And 5 years into the caregiving, she. says, "I don't I don't want to be with. you anymore.". >> Correct. >> Okay. >> You know, when you're in your final days. or your final season of life, things are. different. You know, your. decision-making is different. And and. I'm really maybe the thing I'm most. proud of is that through that experience. of caring for her, Doug and became very. close. >> Uh-huh. >> And uh to this day, we're raising.

Sarah's boys together. in a way that I think Sarah would be. very proud of. >> Wow. Wow, that is a story. So, I I was saying you would be very. triggered in the book Some Bright. Nowhere when Claire asks him to leave. Was that like a gut punch for you, too? >> I got through like the first two. chapters and.

it just brought me to my knees because. And you know, that was my question for. you, Anne, is how how in the world did. you have such a nuanced and and accurate. um. portrayal of of what it's like to be a. guy in that role? >> Um well, first of all, I'm so sorry for. what you went through and amazed by your. story. Especially that you and Doug are caring. for the children and raising them. together. That's incredible. Um how it's.

>> That That's part two of this novel. >> [laughter]. >> Hey. We can collaborate. Um. it's it's what you do when you when you. create a character. And for me, um writing a man is. not harder than than writing a woman. >> Is it is or. >> It is not. It is not because um. in both cases, you're making an empathic.

leap into someone else's experience. And. I think, you know, I. am in my 60s. I've seen friends. and not survive and I've seen the effect. on their families. And I've felt the effect on me, you. know, what it actually does to. a friend, a a small community. So, the the sort of.

the feeling of being in that. challenge and heartbreak was familiar to. me. And in terms of creating Elliot, um. you know, I said I'd abandoned the other. attempt, the one that had the. the different points of view in it, and. the trick for me is to get the voice, and I started writing it, and. I found the voice very quickly. I felt.

like I could write um I mean, it's a a. third person. It's told, you know, as. he, not I, but I felt like I could write. from his point of view, um very readily, and I think that just kind of guided me. into rounding him out and and figuring. out, you know, some of the details. >> I I read, Kyle, that your experience. showed you that uh male caregivers need. a lot more support. Is that Is that. true?

>> Yes. >> 10 years ago, Kyle and two other men who. were also taking care of their wives who. were struggling with cancer co-founded a. national nonprofit called Jack's. Caregiver [music] Coalition. Their. inspiration was a family friend named. Jack who told them to serve the. caregiver. It's a lonely job, and. they're always forgotten. The group provides a much-needed support. system that has helped countless men. cope and navigate the feelings of.

isolation caregivers so often. experience. I encourage you to seek their help if. you need it. You can find them at. jackscaregiver.co.org. The. URL is there on your screen. I just finished uh uh a podcast with. Emma Willis who is Bruce Willis's uh. wife and she's written a book called The. Unexpected Journey about what it's like. to be a a caregiver and she doesn't use.

the word caregiver. She says it's really. care partner because you're there. partnering with the person that. caregivers can be from the outside but. somebody who's in the home with the. person all the time is a care partner so. you were a a great care partner who was. asked to to leave as. through divorce. And I I think that what you're you're. saying is what she says in the book that. care partners need to take care of. themselves first because most people.

just give and give and give until. they're depleted and there's nothing. there. Did you find that for yourself? >> Uh yes, absolutely. The focus on the. other of the person you're caring for is. is absolute. uh for for folks in this role. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um I'd like to ask other men in this. audience you know, if you were Elliot, do you think you'd agree to move out? Yes. No. >> Uh no. I would. >> not? >> give up my home. Um if we've created. that together I would.

still give her a wish but I would. probably go into another space in the in. the house. One thing that I really. thought about Elliot's journey was the. fact that he kind of just wilted away in. in what he was giving. Yes, he was trying to figure out how he. could give her a wish but at the same. time when he. goes with his friends and he's tries to. reminisce it just wasn't wasn't working. for me so I just couldn't really see. like why would he give up.

the place that he grew with his partner. even if it is her final wish I just. wouldn't do that. >> You don't see yourself doing that. You. don't see you. >> I would be be in that way as Claire is. selfish with her wish. >> Okay. Okay. Yes, sir. >> Um I think I would honor the person's. wish, but I would be very, very upset. >> Yeah. >> So, I think it's just the fact that she. has cancer and that she knows she's. going to die. They know she's going to. die.

It's like a double whammy. >> Double whammy. So, you would honor it. You would leave, but you would be pissed. at it. >> I think I would definitely fall into a. passive-aggressive zone as much as I. would love to have a heroic, clear, clean break through. I kind of see what happened, but I think. that it just shed light on the fact that. they had an emptiness in their. relationship that almost upstaged the. cancer and it took that huge life event.

to kind of reveal what was going on. So, in the long run for Elliot, it might be. a blessing, but it was still hard. >> Was it uh This is what I was going to. ask Ann. What what was Does Ann Does. Does Ann Does Claire believe that her. friends can give her something obviously. during these final days that Elliot. can't or won't be able to? >> She does and it it stems from an. experience she had as um. a support person [clears throat] for. someone else. A friend she met in a.

cancer support group um. got to the end of her illness about a. year before her. >> fantasizing about that. I thought she. was making that a lot more fantastical. than it really was because from her. point of view, it was one thing, but who. knows what the woman who was actually. experiencing the cancer was going. through. Maybe it wasn't woo all kumbaya. everybody, you know? Maybe she was. annoyed with them all sitting there. painting her nails and things, you know? [laughter].

>> Yeah. >> Yeah, no, it's um it's it's one of the. things that. Elliot comes to in the middle of the. book is this idea she has said to him, "It was so beautiful when my friend. Susan was dying. There are all these. women, her daughters, her friends. We. just surrounded her with love. I want. that." And um Elliot just sort of. accepts that on face value and it's only. about halfway through the book where. another character says to him, "That was her point of view. What about.

Susan's point of view? What about the. point of view of the person who was. actually. >> actually dying?". >> Yes, exactly. >> helps Elliot. Hearing that helps him. not take it. quite so painfully impersonally. >> Yeah, I was wondering though, why. couldn't she include Elliot and all of. them? Would he not fit with. with with the other friends? >> had I think she had a very romantic idea. of this. this female circle, this this warmth. uh and love from her women friends. And.

um. it's a really whimsical thing that she. does. I mean, she doesn't plan it way in. advance. She's ill. >> she even think about how this is going. to affect him? >> Well, I think she thinks about it and. then she has that, you know, you or me. thing. She's like, am I going to do this. selfish. act of requesting that my husband leave. or not? And I think she thinks, "Well, here I am at the end. Don't we. all want me to have the death I want?".

>> Yeah. >> And so she goes forward not. insensitively and when after she first. says it, she kind of walks it back. Um. it's not an easy thing for her to ask. Um but she. >> She not only asked it, she lived it and. they were drinking wine in there and. laughing all the time. [laughter]. She was. >> She wanted to have some fun. >> She wanted to have some fun. >> if you think about the title, Some. Bright Nowhere, she wanted the bright. >> She wanted the bright. >> Yeah. >> Jenna, where are you? Right there. I thought so. >> So, Anne, your book really cracked my.

heart wide open. Uh 2 years ago my best. friend was diagnosed with cancer and I. moved in with her. and lived with her for 3 months and then. on and off for a full year. We got her. through cancer and it's a very special. bond to be with someone through that. whole journey. I mean, naps and talking. and time you just don't get in real. life. So, that was experience number. one. And then 2 weeks ago my friend.

lived her last 4 days of her life, a. different friend, and she asked me to. come be there with her with her sisters. And so, this book, like your. observations and what you talked about, like you said, I had to stop. I just. cried. I thought, was Anne with me? Like, how would you know that? Such. in-depth um. >> Like what? Share with us. >> So, to be there, the energy of women, of. two sisters and myself, where.

her husband wanted her to be a trooper. and you're you're being strong. We came in and just held the space for. her to be however she was. She lived for. 4 days. And I it's nothing against the. husbands. Like, that's, you know, I felt. for Elliot. But there is something about. your women friends who can just hold. space for you and you can just be. however you want to be and we didn't. even have to talk. You could just hold. hands. Whereas, there were times, and I.

know this is broad stroking it, but the. husband wants to fix it. And what can I. get you? And she was like, I'm done with. the fixing. And she would look at me and. say, "Please make this stop.". >> Mhm. >> You know, and so, um and then just. things that you talked about physically. that happened. >> the nature of men to want to resolve the. problem. It is right, the nature to want. to fix it. Yeah. >> And at the very end, Oprah, there is no. fixing. So, there's just being. >> that. >> And I think female friends can do that.

for each other. You know, like. >> that many years ago on the Oprah show. We were talking about the same thing. about the differences between men and. women. You might agree, Kyle, that men. or you guys might agree that men want. Okay, you're telling me this, so I need. to now resolve it or fix it. Women just. want to tell you. They're just I'm just just sharing my. feelings. You don't have to fix. anything. I'm just talking about it, you. know. >> And also, right to the very last day, we. could have a joke or have like.

And I get it for the partner, this is so. serious. This is the end. Your. girlfriends can make you have a giggle. right to the end. So, there's that type. of feminine energy that you know, maybe. that's what we crave at the end. >> So, you understood why they. >> Oh. >> took her away and they went out to the. back back to the main and they had those. final days. So, you understood. >> And your question, Oprah, was what I was. thinking about of why. at the end do our do we do what we want. for our loved ones? Or, you know, so was.

Claire being totally selfish? And I know. people have strong feelings about that, but I saw the other side of I want my. sisters and I want my girlfriend. And it. was harsh to send him away, but. does she get what she wants? Or are we. people pleasing right. >> Right until the last breath. >> So, the last breath, right? >> Do you people be like, "I don't want you. in here, but. >> [laughter]. >> Exactly. She was the last breath. >> But so exceptionally written and I.

really I felt like you were sitting with. me during that whole experience. It was. so well written. >> Well, thank you so much and and I'm. sorry you went through that, but I also. see the beauty in it. >> Yeah. It was an honor. Truly, it was an. honor. >> I want to ask Kyle, what did this. experience of. giving yourself this care partner. caregiving experience and then being. asked to leave and then in the end. coming back in the end to. caregive with her new boyfriend. What. did that teach you about yourself?

>> Well, I think. it taught me that I loved Sarah. regardless. You know, she. I saw her in the end just having less. capacity. Less and less. And she So, she had you know, so you. think of it as calories. You've got so. many calories to spend. And And when we. have our life ahead of us, we don't. think of that in finite terms. >> Mhm. >> But when we're staring down a terminal.

illness, that's all different. And so, I. think she saw. me, someone who loved her, and she knew. that, her her boys, and and some adventures she had never. had. And And she just did some math and. made some decisions. And And that wasn't. about me. It wasn't an indictment of of. who I was. It took me a long time to get. there. >> Yeah, that it wasn't about you, that it. really was about her and her decision, as you were saying. >> it helps to understand, too, she spent. you know, rather than having like a. girls' weekend, uh she spent the last.

few months of her life in bed writing. notes to my boys. >> Mhm. >> Um so, she's still very much alive in. their in their lives um because of that. So, that was That took a lot of effort. and time. And she wanted to spend it on. that. >> Yeah, I know. I remember one of the you. know, people always ask me about the. Oprah shows that I did. And everybody. always thinks that the most They'll say, "What's the most exciting or the most. memorable?" Everybody always thinks it's. going to be about celebrities. And I.

say, "It's never about celebrities. It's. always about real people." And one of. the real people I remember was dying of. cancer and wrote Not just wrote, but did. tapes of for every birthday for her. daughter until she would turn 18 about. what to do when you go to your first. prom and this is what's going to happen. with your period this is what's going to. happen when I die that daddy's going to. want to marry somebody else. The. daughter was only six so she did them. for every birthday up until 18 and that.

takes a lot of time and thought and. energy to do that so We all of us who. were listening to your story admire the. man that you showed up to be in that. moment. We can say you should be proud. of yourself for the man you showed up to. be in that moment. >> Thank you. >> Robin. >> Hi. Uh so I'm a caregiver myself for my. mother who has dementia. I think first and foremost I really. appreciated the perspective that you. took from the caregiver side a lot of.

that resonated despite the difference in. illness. Some of this you covered with regard to. the relationship and Claire's desire the. way she expressed it was really what she. wanted but she never said why. She never. gave Elliot a reason why he had to leave. for her to have this experience. Um so I was just curious if you felt. that that was symbolic of relationships. that sometimes we just have really hard. time speaking the truth to one another. and at times perhaps it's easier to just.

take what you need and worry less about. other people's feelings. >> You know it's interesting. First of all or. back up. I'm sorry for what you're going. through with your mother. My mother just. um died of complications of Alzheimer's. and it's a very long hard. passage. So I'm sorry for that. Um. I think Claire. told as much of the truth.

that she could and the version of the. truth that she knew at the time. I think. one thing that I try to do in books is. is weave together what's. going on consciously for the characters. and then what's going on unconsciously. And you know, we don't want to give. the ending away, but I think one of the. journeys in the book is. Claire and then Elliot coming to. understand what was really motivating.

her, but she couldn't have told him that. at the beginning cuz she didn't know it. yet. >> Mhm. >> Tessanne? >> Hi. >> Hi. Hi. >> So, when I was reading the book, I. really felt like the story was pushed. forward by Claire's wants and desires. Um and I was curious to know like what. are your thoughts about kind of the. final wants and desires of the. terminally ill and should their wants or. do their wants hold more weight than. those of their caregivers or their loved.

ones? >> I I think they do um often. Uh I haven't been personally involved in. that many situations, but. I would say there there's no um. friend or family member of mine. who has died. whose experience wasn't privileged over. everybody else's. This is it, you know? I think. having someone make a dying wish is a.

very powerful thing. >> Uh on page 42 you write, she had given. him his fatherhood. It wasn't just that. she had given him children, she had. given him his way of being a father. The. greatest gift of his life and after the. gift that was Claire herself. But alone out here with her so far away. and so close to being entirely gone, he was lost. Do you ever make yourself cry with your. own writing? >> [laughter].

>> Cuz I know a lot of people did. >> I would say, well, not while I'm. writing. Embarrassingly, >> when I read it afterwards, sometimes. >> [laughter]. >> You do tear up. >> I have on occasion, yeah. >> Yeah. And on page 133, you write, "Cancer had. taken something from her that was not. energy or verb or ambition. It wasn't. happiness or even contentment. It was an. essential part of her that she couldn't. name. She could only miss it.". Um I can ask you this who's watched your.

friend, what do you think cancer takes. away from people? And then I'll let you. answer that, too. >> For my friend who just passed, it took. away her the life. she had more to do. She was very angry. It took away her inner. like her essence. And I also wanted to. mention that I found it curious with her. at the end that she was so sad for her. husband that she was disappointing him. like at the end, oh I I'm leaving. And I.

found that really interesting that like. there's guilt at the end that you're the. one who and you touched on that. You. wrote about that. And that was so. insightful. But you you lose your in. inner essence of who you are. Cancer. just takes that away. >> What do you think? >> It takes away. your identity as someone who doesn't. have cancer in a certain way. You know. what I mean? It it changes everything. You're no longer.

living in the land of people who haven't. been affected by this thing. And once. you have been. with a disease like cancer. are you ever really out of the woods? So. it kind of it takes away your sense of. confidence that you're. going to have the life you always. thought you were going to have. >> That's interesting. Did you find that, too? >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because now you're forever a cancer. patient. That's why I know a lot of. people hide it for as long as they can.

cuz they don't want to be known as the. cancer patient, cuz you're no longer s-. seen as a full-bodied person. >> You've lived in in the land of the ill. >> You've lived in the land of the ill. Okay. Colleen, where are you? >> My story is uh. I lost my sister to pancreatic cancer. And a year later, my brother called to. say he had pancreatic cancer as well. And would I come live with him and be. his caretaker?

And I did, and he lived for 14 months. >> [snorts]. >> And what I found interesting about their. relationship, at first I was very angry with Claire. But when Elliot was musing about their. marriage and conceded that. he always agreed with her, and really in the end always conceded to. what she wanted, I wondered if Claire brought in her.

friends so he would fight to say, "No, I. want to be the one that spends these. last months, days, whatever you have. left." And. also, would he help her to fight death. and to live as long as she could, as. best she could, even with this prognosis that death is. coming and there is no treatment left. So, that's where I took it. >> That's such an interesting idea that she.

was basically testing him. Are you going. to. stand up for yourself and stand up for. this marriage? That had never occurred. to me while I was working. Um. >> That never occurred to her. >> [laughter]. >> But. >> a point, Colleen, that never occurred to. the author. >> But I will argue that the unconscious of. my characters is unknown even to me. So. >> Interesting. have been under the surface. for her percolating.

>> Right. >> Yeah. I don't think she wanted anyone. to. help her fight it anymore. I mean, I. think the whole the whole point of this. passage, they've stopped treatment, they're entering hospice. It's. it's about what happens after you fight. >> Mhm. I I I think people who've been married. or together, as you were saying earlier, for a 35 or 40 years can relate to how. Elliot is processing a future without.

Claire. And on page um 231, uh you write, "He'd been talking about. Claire for nearly 40 years, but it came. to him that going forward, when he. talked about Claire, he would be talking. about someone who was fixed in time. who had stopped being.". The idea pierced him with its. strangeness. I know you must have felt. this with your brother and your sister, too. >> I did, and I you know, personally for. me, I've never married, nor do I have.

children. And I never even had a pet. So, I only took care of me. And I thought, "How am I going to take care of my. brother who's entrusting me?". And I was scared that I wouldn't be able. to do the job. >> Did you tell him that? >> No. I said, "I will be there tomorrow.". >> Okay. >> [laughter]. >> And you know, hung up the phone with him. and packed my bag. And the whole hour. and a half way there, I kept saying,

"How am I going to do this?". >> But you did. >> But I did. You know, when you love so. deeply. >> Yeah. >> And he was the only brother, the oldest, I was the youngest. And I looked up to him my whole life. There was a 12-year age difference. between us. So, there wasn't anything I. wouldn't do for my siblings. >> And did it give you an opportunity to. know him in a way that you hadn't. before? >> Absolutely. He was a totally different person. And.

because he was the oldest, he knew. stories about the family and relatives. and my grandparents that I had never. heard. I didn't know. We talked about. all these things. It cleared up so many. things for me. >> And what did it teach you about yourself. as I was asking Kyle? >> It taught me under any circumstances. that I can rise to the occasion. and do what has to be done. >> Mhm. >> It made me say, you better start living. a life.

>> Mhm. >> And you better appreciate it in a. different way. I am a homebody. um and all of that, but it it it pushed. me. back into the world. And as a caregiver, you come out of the world around you cuz. you're centered on just caring for this. person. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, this brought lots of things to the. surface for you, which I'm talking about. this this character Elliot for whom it. also brought so many things to the. surface. He was saying, how could he. have failed to understand that she would.

no longer be, he would never again just. talk about her as wife in the other room. at home for the evening back in. Connecticut discussing her with someone. who knew her describing her to someone. who didn't but might meet her someday. What did writing this book bring to the. surface for you? >> I think I would I think it focused my. my interest in the way people function. in very very difficult times. >> Yeah.

>> And um. it was. >> part of the reason why you wrote the. book, too? The producer said to me, you. wanted to normalize this conversation. around the end of life. >> Well, I think we have a hard time. talking about it. I know that I've been. in experiences when. friends have been, you know, approaching. death and I've I've. seen that it it frightens people a lot. >> Yeah. >> Um and then that can come between them. and and the person who's so ill.

So I I I think it's. it's important to. to be able to talk about the fear and. then possibly move beyond it so that you. can have um that sort of beautiful. intimacy, painful, beautiful intimacy. with someone. >> I'm wondering if other cultures handle. it differently because it seems like in. in our culture it's like, "Oh god, you. can't even say that you're going to. die." When every time I say that. somebody's, you know, particularly the. girls are like, "Oh, don't say that.". Well, it's going to happen.

>> It's going to happen, yeah. >> I think so. I think um. I think there are many cultures that. that do it a lot better. >> Mhm. >> Um and. part of part of the issue I think is. that we. we don't have a lot of rituals around. people. >> Yes. >> becoming ill and dying. Um it's. medicalized, not necessary not, you know, that's not. a bad thing. We need medicine, but um. the sort of rituals to handle just the.

notion of this passage. into, you know, out of life. >> I just read an article about, you know, Canada has made it legal for you to uh. euthanasia and how so many people now at. the end of their lives who know they're. going to die and are planning their. death ceremonies are having these. rituals. They're having these life. celebration parties and making decisions. about how they want that to happen. I. know Claire would have been very happy. with that. She would have been. >> [laughter]. >> very happy with that.

>> She had She had her own little party. >> She had her own little party. >> to. >> At the end of writing this story and you. put it away and you hit send and you. send it off to to your publisher, what sense of Did you feel a sense of. relief, a sense of gratitude, a sense of. >> I think I felt a sense of completion. >> Completion. >> Yeah, like. I don't let something go until I'm. really Mhm. finished with it, happy with it. I've.

rewritten it a thousand times. And. um. And that send that send moment is sort. of. a way to formalize saying to yourself. >> Done. >> It's done. You finished. >> It is done. >> Yeah. >> Thank you so much for Some Bright. Somewhere. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you to this audience. Thank. you, Kyle. Thank you, Jenna. Thank you. for sharing your stories with us. Go. Thank you. for living through that and then rising. to be someone even better than you.

thought yourself to be. To be able to do that. I really have. great admiration and highest regard for. you all being able to do that. For your. friends, for your relatives, for your. brother and your sister. Talking about great books y'all is one. of my favorite things in life. So, thank. you for sharing in that with me. Some. Bright Somewhere is available wherever. books are sold. Thank you, Ann. Thank you so much. >> much. >> [applause].