Amy Griffin: “The Tell” | Oprah’s Book Club

I want you to know this conversation is. not intended to offer medical advice. Psychedelics remain illegal in most. states. So I encourage you to consult. your own health care professional before. considering any kind of mental health. treatment. Hey everybody, [cheering] guess who this is? Amy. Griffin. [cheering] Good to see you Chicagoans. So good.

[applause]. Hello to Amy. Say hello to Amy. Say. hello to Amy. Thank you, Chicago. I'm excited [music] for you to be able. to share this story with the world. Oprah, when you called. [music]. Yeah. You were in the closet. I was in the closet. I just gotten out. of the bathtub. I was soaking wet. [music] Amy, this is Oprah calling you. about the towel. Oh my god. I don't know that anyone ever. expects [music] that Oprah's going to.

call, but it was a beautifully very. validating moment. I will just say. Well, I'm happy for that. All right, let. us begin. You deserve to be validated. Let's begin. [music]. Hi everybody. I'm so glad you joined us. for Oprah's Book Club presented by. Starbucks. Yay. So, I'm in my old Chicago neighborhood. at a Starbucks cafe. And for almost 30. years, I lived like three blocks up the.

street. And I'm in such good company. here. Chicago is truly my kind of town. And you readers are my kind of people. So, welcome. Your neighborhood Starbucks. store is, I believe, just the perfect. place to gather with friends or discuss. a good book and enjoy a delicious cup of. coffee. And the pairing for our March. book club pick is the anniversary blend, they're calling it. It's a seasonal full. flavored coffee with notes of cedery. spice and black truffle. I love some.

truffle honey. And you can pick up a bag of anniversary. blend at your local Starbucks store. Okay, so here is my 112th. book club pick. It is called The Tell. The Tell, [singing]. [applause]. a memoir by Amy Griffin. Amy Griffin is. the founder of the investment [music]. firm G9 Ventures. She is a financial. visionary supporting female founders of.

iconic brands like Goop, Bumble, Spanx, [music] and Hello Sunshine. In her new. memoir, The Tell, Amy confronts her. painful past and unravels a secret she. buried deep inside [music] for over. three decades, ultimately finding peace. and freedom by writing her [music]. story. This conversation contains. discussions about child sexual abuse and. may be challenging [music] or upsetting. for some people. Listener and viewer. discretion is advised. This is not a.

subject for young children. May I say, well done. The courage it. took to put this in writing and to then. offer it to the world. You should be. very proud of yourself. And I chose this. book because I am so proud of you. I'm. proud of you for having the courage to. speak your truth. And I know that your. truth is going to liberate so many. people. And you start the book by saying.

this is a story. You say of a secret. A. secret kept for decades. One I had. buried so deep I didn't even know it was. there. Many of us carry secrets. Things. that we were told not to reveal or. things we simply couldn't for fear of. judgment or reprisal or worst of all for. fear that if the people we love found. out, they'd see us differently. Sometimes we keep secrets to survive. And then a moment arrives when the.

usefulness of the secret expires. Keeping it becomes the thing that hurts. us all. We have to tell. So what is the secret you've come to. tell? Well, first Oprah, I just want to. say I'm so grateful. I have so much. gratitude to be sitting here with you. and this audience because in its. simplest form, the book is about telling. and sometimes it's the hardest thing to.

do. It's the hardest thing we do, but. that's what we're doing right here. And. that's what the book is. And. I think, you know, the idea that we. think secrets keep us safe, but they. keep us stuck. And I really came to. understand that. I mean, and make us sick. That's why that phrase. You're as sick as your secrets. Is that. only as sick as your secrets? Yes. And I, you know, I had so many memories. of standing in line to Starbucks when I. was actually in the last few years as I. was writing this book and then I was in. the process of doing all of this that I.

was standing in line looking at the cake. pops and everything in the in the. background and thinking I'm about to. tell someone my story because so many. times my story was told over a cup of. coffee. And so I have these intense. memories of gathering my thoughts as to. how I was going to tell someone my. story. And the idea that the secret. really and the secrets are really all. memories. They're memories that come. from the beautiful parts of my book,

which is in the writing of my childhood, which I so loved. I loved writing about. doing cartwheels in the field and. catching ladybugs in a jar and all these. memories that we all have from. childhood. And you know, getting on my. banana seat bike and riding off to take. all of my friends to the convenience. store, which was close to our house, which was the convenience store that. happened to be owned by my family, which. was our family business and is our. family business.

Amy grew up the oldest of four children. in Amarillo, Texas, where her family ran. a chain of convenience stores called. Toutin Totem. She describes her. childhood in the Texas panhandle as free. but at the same time ruled by order. This was where I got to be giving toot. and totem. the Toot and Totem food store. cuz you honk your horn and toot and then. you they tote it out. That's right. Okay. That's right. Yeah. And and you know that was where I. in the beginning of my life I got to be.

giving. I got to be loving. I got to. bring my friends and say everybody gets. to get a Coke and one candy bar and. that's it. And then I went in and the memories of. childhood that I talk about in part of. the book that are very difficult that. are childhood memories about deep. childhood trauma. that I've had to trust in myself to. accept and to write about those too. along with the memories that were so. beautiful. And then I went about this.

crazy criminal investigation which you. can read about which talks about the. secrets. And can you articulate for the. people who all of everybody here has. read the book and they have questions. but there are millions thank you for. being millions who are watching us who. don't know what the secret is. So can. you tell them what is the secret that. you discovered? Yes. Well, the secret that I discovered. was the idea that I had been for many. years abused in a school bathroom by a. teacher. I decided that, you know, if I.

went in and I criminally investigated. this person and I did everything I could. to hold this person accountable, that if. I could do that, that I would show that. I was right and he was wrong. Okay. So, you were abused by your middle school. teacher for. multiple years, even into high school, but you did not have a memory of it. until much later in life. And we'll talk. about how that memory came about. And. once you discovered that memory of it,

you wanted to go after him cuz who. wouldn't want to do that? and you were. in pursuit of that and realized what. the pursuit was something that I thought. that I needed because for many reasons. one I I knew I had to hold this person. accountable so that he couldn't hurt. anyone else but also I thought the. criminal investigation and this pursuit. of that would make me whole. Yeah. It would take everything away from me.

and it would prove like I'd done in so. many other areas of my life to say I got. this person. Look, I have validation. right here that this person has been put. away because of my efforts. And you. know, at the same time that I'm pursuing. this criminal investigation and the ups. and downs of all of it that I'm writing. about, I realized I'm also really. looking inside myself. and I'm investigating what I need from. this. But I was running a parallel track. at the same time trying to do both.

Okay. You know, you start the book. talking about how you're running. First. of all, that you're a great runner. We. can see. Not anymore. [laughter]. Not anymore. Excelling in academics and athletics, [music]. Amy earned a scholarship to play. volleyball at the University of. Virginia. After graduation, she moved to. New York City, landing a job in. marketing for magazines [music] like Miz. and Working Mother. Before moving on to. Sports Illustrated, she continued to be. an avid runner, an athlete. We learn in.

the book that you're running, running, running running, running running all the. time and that, you know, you were an. athlete and that it was one of the. central driving forces in your life. You. were literally physically running but. also running from one thing to the next. all the time, often having multiple. injuries. And at one point, a therapist. said to you, "What is it your body is. trying to tell you?" So, what is it that. happened that absolutely stopped you in. your tracks? Well, I look at that.

conversation with the physical therapist. and I think about the idea that she was. talking about just, you know, asking, "Why do you push yourself so hard? Why. now? Why this? Why that? Why can't you. slow down?" And I look back at it now. and I realize I was finally able to hear. her, for her to say that to me, that. your body is breaking down. I've had hip. hip surgeries, back surgeries. I mean, every possible injury you could imagine. And it was it was this idea that I then. turned to myself and hearing her to say,

"Why am I not listening to the physical. cues that my body is trying to tell me. something?" You know, it's so. interesting cuz people who know you, friends of yours who say you were not. just a runner physically, but that you. literally that they literally like, "Why. do you have to do everything? You need. to just sit down. Why can't you just. relax?" that you were always the person. who was doing all the things all the. times. And in your 40s, uh, you describe. in the tell how it looked like certainly.

to those of us from the outside that you. were living this picture perfect life. You were married to the love of your. life, John, with four healthy children. Amy fell in love and married her [music]. husband, John Griffin, the founder of. Blue Ridge Capital, in 2003. [music]. Together, they have four children. 20-year-old Jack, 18-year-old Gracie, 15-year-old Gigi, and [music]. 12-year-old Julian. They live in New. York City. Hello, John. Amongst all. these women here, uh, among four healthy.

children, you had a highpowered career. funding female founders and you should. have felt on top of the world. And yet, you write, "It was like my body knew. something that I didn't." And as the. years for, my body kept telling me to. slow down, but you just couldn't. And. and you say at another point in the. book, it looked like I had the perfect. life and yet and yet and yet. Yes. Can. you describe what was happening? Well, I.

was never a sit by the pool girl. I was. never a let's just sit by the pool and. hang out. And I've tried to be that, but. I just have never been that sit by the. pool girl. But I think I realized and. and I started to see these little these. little glimmers of the idea that I had. and realizations that I had built up. castles around me. I'd built up these. castles in my life with this moat and. this drawbridge and there were a lot of. alligators. Yeah. In that moat and I was building and.

building and building and it was much. easier to always say, "Look at that. person over there." But I think that I. started to realize you've been running. really hard, really fast for a long. time. And you're missing something. Okay? You're not listening to yourself. Okay? Not only not listening to. yourself, this is what's so interesting. to me. So, you have this picture perfect. life. Uh, and all of your friends think. your life is perfect, yet they know that. you're you're the one who's always. running around all the time. And one. night, you were confronted by your two.

daughters, which I thought was so. powerful. Didn't you love that moment. when the daughters say to her, they they. were young at the time, I think it was. Gigi at the time, 11 years old, right? And tell us what happened. You know, they say your children are. your greatest teachers. Yes. And in this case, and always in the case. of my girls, and they're watching going, "Yeah, I know." Um, but I have to say. that that night I went into Gigi's room. and they and both the girls called me in. and I went in with Gigi and Gracie said,

"No, Gigi really needs she needs to tell. you something." And Gigi looked at me at. 11 years old and she said, "Mom, you're. there, but you're not really there. Where are you?" And I turned into the. child and I stormed out of the room. I. slam the door and John said, "What. happened in there?" And I said, "Well, I. do everything for her. I do everything. I do all the planning. I do all the. packing. I I have her life is perfect.

because of me.". And she But she said, "Mom, you're. really nice. You're nice. You're not. real. But you're not real." She said, "Mom, you're nice, but you're not real. And you're not really there. Where are. you?" Which I would think as a mother, would that not just pull you up? That. would pull you up, right? I wanted to. take that out of the book. Yeah. But that's not honest. Yeah. And that was the catalyst. If your. children can't be a mirror to you, then. then who can? And that was.

You could never take that out of the. book. That's a main key [clears throat]. part of the book. I could never have taken it out. But as. a mother, you also know how hard it was. to say it. Oh, but also when your 11year-old child. says that, and she's with Gracie, who. was what, 13 at the time. When your. daughters call you in for uh come to. Jesus meeting about yourself, uh that. has got to that has got to stop you in. your tracks and make you think what is. going on and what are they seeing or. feeling that I'm not. Is that what.

happened 100%. I mean the the parent. child uh role had been reversed in that. moment. and I actually had to stop and listen. and say you know I have to go figure. this out. I have to understand why she's. telling me this. And and it could have. been the other way around where the door. could have stayed slammed and I could. have said, "No, you're going to just. obey me and do what I say.". Yeah. But I didn't. I didn't. I leaned in to. recognize there was something within. myself. I mean, well, that's pretty powerful. I got to.

say that's pretty powerful for your. daughters to do that. John, when she. told you that, what' you think? I said, "You need to listen to Gigi. She's speaking an important truth." And. um you know, we have talked about as. parents how we try and you know, meet. our children where they are. And this. was a good example. Uh and Amy went back. in there and met her where she was and. it was very. Okay, John, let me ask you this. What. Gigi and Gracie uh brought up to their. mom. Had you sense that or felt that too. with the running and the running and the. running and the what is Yeah. Had you.

sensed that? Yeah. Um she's much faster than I am and. [laughter]. there was a lot of running. uh and it. was running from something that I. observed but I had no idea you know what. it was or or what it could be but there. was a relentless uh motion uh a. relentless um uh restlessness. restlessness turns towards perfection. perfectionism. Yeah. And around this time I understand. that you had started taking psychedelic. assisted therapy for your own reasons.

Correct. And you suggested that it may. be helpful to to her. Yeah. And my way of doing that was just. for her to meet um uh the person, you. know, I'd been uh working with. Uh and. it was like um the clouds lifted and the. sun came up. It was an immediate. connection um between uh Amy and the. woman and that started on on her. So, you were taking you were taking. psychedelic assistant therapy to help.

you with whatever was going on with you. and you thought, "Well, honey, you. should try this, right?". And what did you think when he first. suggested it? Well, for me, I had a. little bit of distance from it because. everyone in my life knows that I really, you know, this for this need for control. and perfection. I don't like alcohol and. I don't like I' never seen illicit drugs. and this is something that I stay away. from. I like to stay in control at all. times. And so the idea that, you know, psychedelic assisted therapy, I had read. so much about it for veterans and how.

veterans had used this. I actually also. didn't realize that PTSD could refer to. anyone other than someone who'd been in. combat. Yeah. And I think that was maybe me. disassociating in away from that because. I just couldn't I couldn't understand. that. Well, that's how most of us learned what. PTSD was. So I remember when I opened my. school in South Africa and you know the. girls were going through all this what I. thought was like what is happening uh. Dr. Bruce Perry said to me I think your.

girls are suffering from PTSD and I. thought I said the same thing well they. haven't been to war and he goes poverty. is war. trauma is war and so that's the first. time I realized it around 20067. Yeah. Well, I think that's one of the things. I've really come to realize too, even in. the writing of this, that trauma is not. just what happened to me, but there are. parts of us. in all of us that are broken. Mhm. That we go in, if we can go in and just. tell them and acknowledge them. Well,

the reason why I think the tell is going. to have such a profound effect on so. many people is because when people live. a life like you live a very elevated. uh highly exposed to everything possible. in the world life growing up the way you. did in Amarillo riding around with your. banana seat bicycle and going to the. tootin totem and having everything look. and seem to be perfect except you didn't. win homecoming queen. Um, I did not. Uh, it's hard to believe that traumatic.

things happen to you because people. think when you have money that you can't. have sadness or trauma or difficulties. or challenges. So, what happened during. your first session with the therapist? Well, and what psychedelic did you use? And so just to also to go back to what. we were saying about um I used MDMMA. and the idea that I had seen other. people in my life that had benefited.

from it and seen how that you know I. took note of that and I saw how John had. talked about we'd always if we'd gone to. dinner and someone had said John do you. have siblings he would say no I'm an. only child which is true because John. lost his sister to suicide many many. years ago and then one night after John. had had his experience. We went to dinner. Someone said, "John, do you have any siblings?" And he said, "No, I'm an only." He said, "No, I have. I'm sorry. I had a sister and she. committed suicide." So, the party line.

had changed and I I saw how he had. changed and I thought, "Well, I want. some. I want that. I I need that. honesty." And that is that is why I. decided I think that there were there. were so many reasons why I decided to do. what I did at that moment in time. And I. think that was, you know, whether you. believe in the divine god, you know, how. it all comes together, I don't know. But. in this moment for me, it was the idea. that I could no longer live with the. secret. It was eating me up inside. It. was it was killing me. And so,

but you didn't know it. What? You had. the secret at the time. You didn't know. you had the secret. You just knew it was. something. I didn't know the secret, but I did tell. the practitioner that I knew I needed to. really explore my childhood and sexual. trauma. You knew that? I knew that, but I. actually did not know what the trauma. was. So, when I went in to have the. psychedelic assisted therapy session. with a practitioner, there were so many. reasons that set the stage. And I think. it's so important for everyone to know. this that one, I had John. I had this.

incredibly. loving, supportive relationship that I'd. had for a long time. So, there was. safety there. John. John. Yeah. Yeah. There was no This is. And this is really important. I think. it's incredibly important to talk about. the idea that my daughters were of the. ages that I was when all the trauma. happened to me. So that was was. happening at the same time. And then I. also felt incredibly safe with the. practitioner that I was working with. And so the setup was such that I was.

ready to go in and to give myself. permission to take that pill. So it was. more that going in to take the pill for. me as someone who doesn't drink, who had. never seen elicit drugs, to take that. pill and allow myself to have the. compassion for myself to explore things. I could not talk about on this earth. So. what did you see in that session? We. want to know what happens when you take. the pill. I know. Explain it to us. Are you lying. down? Are you sitting up or somebody. talking to you? We don't know what. happens. Um what happens?

I was lying down on a couch. Yeah. There was this beautiful flamingo. music playing in the background. I put. the eye shades on and I surrendered and. and the therapist is guiding you through. it. The therapist doesn't say one word. Oh, the therapist doesn't say one word. She didn't say a word, but I could feel. the connection with her and I could feel. that I the connection with her was so. strong and the connection with John was. so strong and the connection with. But John wasn't there. John was not. there but all the people in my life. I feel like all roads led to this.

moment. Okay. So you. I took the pill. You took the pill. and in 5 minutes I turned to the. practitioner and I said. why is he here? Why is my teacher here? And then I said I'm going to tell you. everything. And that was it. That was the moment. So. are did then did you start talking and. telling what you were seeing? For eight hours.

For eight hours. For eight hours. I just said it. I I told her every. single scenario, every single instance. of the abuse, one after the other. It. was linear. It was this. It was if I'm looking at. this coffee cup, I I would be able to. tell you in 20 years exactly what the. swirl of my of my coffee milk looked. like. It was reliving the experiences as. I had them. But I was reliving the. experiences in a way as such that I had. so much compassion for myself. And I.

think it's so important to also say that. I am not a doctor. I'm not a scientist. I have no medical background, but I am a. one of one. And I could tell this story. a thousand times over and I remember it. exactly as it happened. And I'm so. grateful for that. It was like you were put back in the. room in the space with the teacher. Now, what is So, when I was reading that, it. it sounded terrifying because there was.

so much violence involved. I mean, literally him putting your head in the. toilet, literally him, you know, doing. all kinds of. horrible things to you, including, you. know, his foot on your back at one time. How were you able to process this? You're lying there on the sofa with. their eyes covered and you're telling. this story. It does it feel like you're. back in the space? Does it feel like. you're in danger or does it feel like.

you're the observer of this thing? Well, the first time that I had a session, I. was the observer and I did not feel like. I was in any danger because I already. knew. I knew this. I was watching it. Mhm. Instead, I had complete compassion for. myself, complete love for that little. girl that experienced it. It was like. two sides of me met. That 12-year-old. side of me met. the Amy in her 40s. Mhm. And it was as if we embraced.

and no longer did I have to keep the. secret. And it was also in that session. that I realized that in many ways and. this is this is the real crux of all of. it that the secret is the hardest part. with thing the secrets you're told to. keep. They're not yours. Yeah. So you have since talked to trauma. therapists who explained to you why you. would block this from your memory and.

what did they tell you? Well, I think that that's also a part of. the journey and that's a lot of the. writing too in that along with the idea. that I was pursuing this criminal. investigation. I'm also pursuing this understanding of. how could these memories be there and me. not know about them. So, I wanted to. also perfect that. I wanted to have. perfect answers. I wanted to have a. perfect outcome. And so, I did. I spoke. But everything that's ever happened to. us is in here is in here. Everything.

that's ever happened. We don't remember. all the little day-to-day things that. happen. So what did she say over time? And I know that the subject of memory is. always changing. But what I know in my. memory is that you know there is storage. and recall. And so all I can say to. myself is I stored this memory and then. I could only recall it once I was in the. setting in a place when it was time that. my body was safe enough. There were 10.

years where I really couldn't listen to. myself and I think it was as another. form of the running four kids big life. for me I was surviving. and that was looking perfect to the. outside world. Okay. Uh one of the things that struck. me in the book and I think a lot of. women go through this too this whole. idea of perfectionism right having to be. right about everything and doing. everything right and it's perfect. Um, there's a line that you used, I recall, where you said, "I mistook praise for.

love.". You thought getting praised. was the same as being loved. And so when you get the trophy or when. you're awarded the whatever the award. is, and that's why not being homecoming. queen was so devastating to you because. it's a form of praise and you felt like, what did I do wrong? It was a form of if. you could just keep building and keep. hiding. and keep making everything look perfect, then you wouldn't be found out. Yeah. Well, I you listen, I'm no doctor.

either, but I've done hundreds of shows. now on abuse and have my own, you know, story of being uh sexually assaulted, raped at nine, and then continued on. sexual abuse up until the time that I. was 14. And I remember when I first told. the story, everyone was like,"Wh didn't. you tell? Why didn't you tell?" And I. didn't tell because I knew it wasn't. safe for me to tell. I knew that if I.

had told, I would have been blamed for. it. Somehow it would my it would have. turned on me and I would have been held. responsible. And in in reading your. book, The Tell, I thought you were able. to suppress it because you were so, this. is just my theory. I don't know what the. therapist said is that you were able to. suppress it because your life was built. around praise and perfection and that. nothing that was happening with that.

teacher fit in with your idea of who you. were as a person. And so that just. couldn't be in your world. And somehow. you managed to suppress that. And the. striking thing in the book to me is the. moment when your sister, there's this. party they're having and there's. there's one of your old babysitters is. on the tape. What was that party? What. was that party for? It was the night before our rehearsal. dinner for our wedding. Okay. The night before the rehearsal. dinner for the wedding and your sister.

put together this tape and she's so. proud of the tape and she has one of. your old babysitters. And in that tape, do you all remember this moment? The old. babysitter talks about Amy always hiding. her underwear. and I thought, "Whoa, whoa." And. you had a really bad reaction to that to. that in the tape and you were upset with. your sister and said, "You know what? You said to your sister about it because. during that time you're hiding your.

underwear because of all that was going. on." So even in that moment where the. babysitter says, "Oh yeah, Amy always. used to hide her underwear.". Did that the reason why it upset you was. what? First, can I also just say I'm sorry for. what happened to you? Oh, thank you. But you know, I think. that that's the realization as I look. back and that's part of the process that. I went through in coming to understand. that comment from my sister who is the.

most loving human. Yeah. on the planet. And even then, the night two nights. before our wedding with, you know, all. the emotions being high of a wedding, I. recognized why am I reacting that way. Even then, 20some years ago, but only in. the reflection of it after really diving. in to go and do this processing could I. realize that was shame. That was the. word shame. And in many ways, if you had.

asked me five years ago in the life that. I'd built around control and perfection. and making everyone else happy, if I. knew what the word shame was, I might. have said no and turned around and. walked off. Yeah. Right. So, shame it wasn't a part of your story. Shame was not going to be a part of my. story. And and also let me say too that. in doing all this work I can now go back. and also look at the parts of me that I. want to keep. And so I've been able to.

take those parts and recognize that. leadership at its core for me was. something that I was told I was a. leader. I was groomed by this person to. use something that was an intrinsic part. of me to say, "Oh, you're a leader. You're a leader." Well, guess what? I. got to go back and reflect on that and. recognize who I was before all of this. And the two things that I come to are. kindness and I'm a leader.

Yeah. And I can say that. And you got that from your parents. because your mother get that from my. parents. I got that from your parents is what you. said. I get that from both my parents on both. sides. I get that from my matriarchal. grandmother who started the business. totem. Yeah. I get that from an incredible father who. is fierce and a hardworking and an. incredible businessman. And I get it. from my mother who is also like my. sister, the most loving, wonderful person on the planet. Yeah. What's interesting too about that. and about how you grew up is that you're.

groomer and you know, everybody gets. groomed. I mean, you know, I was doing. the actual Oprah show, talking to men. who molested their daughters before I. realized it actually wasn't my fault. when one of the men was talking about. how he had worked for 6 months to be. able to get close enough to his. stepdaughter to rub up against her. breasts. and that he had worked on touching her.

thighs and touching her in playing games. and then one day he was going for the. breast he said and if he got a reaction. from her then he would go to his wife. first and say I don't know why she. reacted that way and and and the and the. daughter did say what are you doing and. then he said I left her alone and I. moved on to her sister. So in that. conversation, I realized, oh, there was. a plan. It wasn't my fault. There was a.

plan. And your teacher had a plan. And. that day that you had lost the election. for was it student council or student. president? And he knew that you were a strong. leader. And he said, what did he say to. you? Well, Oprah, days after I had my. first psychedelic assisted therapy. session, John was standing in the room. with me. when I was in the bathtub.

and I threw a bar of soap because I was. 42 and I recognized and I finally I. describe it as putting a puzzle puzzle. above my head. The fuses, it was like. the pieces snapped together. the entire. the corners, all of it came together in. one place. And I threw the bar of soap, hurled it across the room because I. said, "I I understand how he got to me.". And he said to me, he used the intrinsic.

part of me that I am a leader. He told. me, he said, "You are the leader of this. school." And this person, this trust, the word trust is the idea of all of. this is that I trusted this person. This. wasn't a stranger, right? This was someone I trusted inherently. and someone who was also supposed to be. shephering me to become the best person. that I could say is he had his eyes on. you. He already had his eyes on you. So. when he said to you uh that you're the.

leader of this school, you're the real. leader. That made you feel really. validated. And so you go out of your way. to prove that you are. So then you start. staying later after school and it's just. you and him and the volleyball coach or. the gym teacher, whoever it was, and he. sees that. And so as I'm reading this. now, having come from the background. that I do, uh he had his eye on you, had. targeted you. And believe me, you're not.

the only one who was targeted, but at. this particular time, you were targeted. and he was going after you no matter. what. and the fact that you come from. the background that you come from. He. would have believed that you would not. have told and this is what I've learned. for myself and having interviewed done. hundreds of these shows. cuz I think by. the time we finish the Oprah show, we've. done over 200 shows on, you know, victims of abuse, is if you don't tell.

the first time it happens, you're likely not to tell because by the. time it happens the second and third. time, you think you're complicit. you're. somehow. you caused it or it's your fault or. you're making it happen or but if you. don't tell the very first time that's. been my experience that it gets harder. and harder to tell. One of the things. that's been really hard for me was in. the telling in this process in the third.

part of the book which is you know I I. say the second part is a crime novel. that I go through and it goes up up and. down and all over the place but the. third parts and the telling and I think. it's really interesting as an. observation that in many of the adults. and family members and friends when I. went to tell them their reaction. was more of why how in the adult brain. they wanted answers because they wanted. to help me. But one of the most. beautiful parts of all of this.

realization for me goes back to my. daughters. And that when I did go to. tell my girls, they didn't say why, how, why did we not. know earlier? Instead, they said we see. you. They just said we see you. We. understand. We now know why you tried to. be perfect. We they validated me in in. the mind of a child. Yeah. And I can see. that connection now between how the. adult brain and any adult can want an. answer in one way and how children can.

just be present in in the moment. But but let's just say I I recall in the. book you say, didn't he tell you that if. you told anybody they wouldn't believe. you. many times? Yeah. And you believed him. [clears throat]. then you believe him. and that inherently I wouldn't be loved. and to be told as a child that you will. not be loved. when isn't that the basis of what. yeah that's what everybody's striving. for. is love.

well the audience has questions for you. where's Sarah Sarah tell us what. happened when you read this book. I have four daughters. and um thank you for sharing your story. it touched me really deeply and. terrified me with the statistic that you. shared that one in three women. experience sexual violence. Yep. I have a very open relationship with my. girls. Um but it definitely prompted me. to sit down with them each of them and. have a. How old are your girls? For I 11, 14, 18, and 19. And I sat down with each of them and had.

a conversation. after reading the tell. This is Amy's. story made me sit down with my girls and. at different levels shared your story. with them and talked to them about how. this happens and that people can be um. groomers. And as we had the. conversation, they looked at me and. said, "Well, that would never happen. I. would never let that happen." And I. thought, "Okay, this is where I'm stuck. And this is where I ask you, what would.

the safety valve have been? What would. you have wished that you had had that. could have been your trigger to be safe. or that someone could have said to you? Because here are my girls thinking this. can't happen to them. This would never. happen. I'm too smart for that. But it. sounds like you were also and you had. loving parents like I see myself. So I'm. curious what your reaction would be. Gosh, thank you for that question. It. also gives me the opportunity to be able. to say to my parents that I don't think.

that there is anything else that they. could have done in this world to have. changed what had happened. But also look. where we are now and the hope that I can. help other people in sharing my story. And so I want to make sure that they. know that they are off the hook. um because they try to keep themselves. on the hook for this. I'm sure your. mother being the loving, kind person. that she is, this would devastate your mother. I. mean, not that your father wouldn't be. too, but I'm sure it it almost took your. mother out, did it not?

It absolutely did. And I remember the. next morning at breakfast, and I promise. I'll answer your question when. when the next morning at breakfast, my. mother said to me, I have to say to you, you told me so much last night, but I. don't remember any of it. And I said, but that's just it. That's the whole. point of this is that it's too hard to. hold. I have to say though that um your. ability to talk about your family and. share your family in a way that allows.

us to see the connection to you but. doesn't expose them in any way is is. that you did a really good job. That's. why I say well done. That's a hard thing. to do. That's a hard thing to do because. everybody gets to tell their own story. or should be able to tell their own. story, but I felt like we were brought. into the family and understood it. My best friend always says, um, make. sure you let other everyone tell their. own story like they're part of the. story. And that was one of the things I. realized in going to tell my family that. that and it was the hardest part too. I.

had to say to them, I'm going to tell you something, but. also I can't hold it for you. So, I. can't then come and mourn and grieve it. with you. you have to mourn and grieve. it and then we can grieve in the. relationship together. And that's part. of the separation that I think that. happens with the abuse. And so when I. said, I don't know how I'm going to tell. my parents this, this is the hardest. thing I can ever tell my parents. And I. thought that would be the worst day of. my life. But my dad turned to me and he. said after all of it, just stoic like,

and I think you all read it, but I love. saying the line, "We might have missed. the first part of your life in this way, but we're not going to miss the second. half.". I love that. I love that. [applause]. And what I would say about um your. daughters is u my children are right. about the same age and I would say that. the word vulnerability comes to me and. comes to mind in this idea that as. parents we think we have to be this. authoritative figure but really it's. breaking down those yes sers yes ma'ams.

that obedience piece of parenting to. just have those honest conversations. with your children about vulnerability. and and giving them agency so that they. know in those moments when something. they have a flicker in their brain. that's not right that they can come tell. you. And also I would say this that over the. years what I've learned the word. grooming is you know obviously a word. that's a part of our culture but I have. found in so many cases and certainly in. mine also that it's more about. seduction. And so you you you are.

seduced before you know you're seduced. That's the thing those of you with young. children and and particularly if you. think oh my child would tell me. it's challenging when you have been. seduced and lured. particularly by somebody that you know. and you trust and that's why you need to. have the conversation about it's not you. know in in in Amy's case there was a lot. of violence involved and you know.

crudeness and horror. But in many cases, it isn't. It isn't. It is more of a seduction and the child. is lured and before they know it, they. think it's their fault because they're. lured. And so you you you need to have. that that that conversation also. Thank. you, Sarah. Casey, you have a question. Hi, Amy. Thank you so much for sharing. your story with us. I'm honored to be. here and to talk to you today. One of my. favorite parts of the book was the.

gesture of wanting John's hand on your. back during these moments of reckoning. It was just so powerful to read on the. page. And so I'm wondering how did the. important life decision of choosing John. as your partner impact your healing. journey? And what advice would you want. to give your readers about being. vulnerable with their partner? Oh gosh, [laughter]. thank you. Well, to simplify my relationship with. John is to say he puts his hand on my.

back and he just knows. There's a part. about the book where I talk about um. long no and short yes in. Oh, I love that part. I meant to bring. that up. Long no short yes in making. decision-m and and this is it's John's. phrase so I'm actually stealing it. But. and with us and I write about this, there's not a long no of dating and then. okay, I guess we should get married. It. was instantaneous. And I feel like I am. so grateful that in this world that I've. been given John because through this.

relationship that we've built over so. many years, I truly believe that was a. maybe one of the only reasons I was able. to come around and in this lifetime to. be able to say what happened to me. Yeah. And so I think I think um I think. instinct though and leaning into. instinct is something that's so. important even in just finding that. right partner. Thank you. John, can you explain to us the the long. no short yes philosophy cuz when I said.

that I go I'm going to remember this. I. remember at one point because I had the. same thing problem that you had. Anybody. who's abused has had this issue of. boundaries. Like you don't know how to. set a boundary and you spend your. lifetime trying to set the boundaries. cuz you're trying to please everybody. and make everything okay. So at one. point when I was in here in Chicago, I. had a little sign on my desk that says. remember what yes feels like because. there is a feeling you get instantly. from a yes. So when I read that your.

philosophy is long no short yes, I. thought I love that. Well, the the no part is just you keep. putting it off and it doesn't feel right. and it just doesn't fit and it's just a. very long, you know, journey to get to. know. But the short yes is exactly what. you said. I call it a full-bodied yes. Yes. Like it's not just here. where you don't have to think about it. and let me call you later. Yeah. [clears throat]. Yeah. You're not doing procon charts. Yeah, I do that. Let me pray on it a.

minute. I'll get back to you. Yeah, it. just feels like Yeah. And you feel it throughout, you know, your body. It's both an emotional and. intellectual thing. And I've actually. used it in various aspects of my life. But uh yes, this was a full body. Yes. When I met Amy, full body yes. Maria, uh hi. Here's the. story that I think is so interesting and. it's this theme of perfection. So for me. from the very beginning of the story to. the very end it's this thread of. perfection and the difficulty of. perfection and I and I have the.

privilege of working with some. extraordinary women leaders in. Chicagoland and I see this thread in all. of them this level of um everything. looks perfect sometimes from the outside. but everyone is dealing with various. levels of trauma and it it doesn't have. to be as profound um as and tragic as. your trauma was. But people are dealing. with experiences and trauma and it's. such a a reminder of we cannot judge.

others. We have to remember that. everyone has experiences and the. experiences is what gives them life is. what makes them a have a powerful and. impactful life. But to give us grace and. so thank you. [applause]. Thank you. Uh, I think a lot of working. moms relate to what you were saying. You. that you wore your busyiness, you said. like a badge of honor. You all relate to that. You wore your. busyiness. That's what you're talking.

about too, right? You wore your. busyiness like a badge of honor. Uh, has. that changed for you? It's definitely. changed. Um, I think John could tell you. better, but I'm going to say, you know, I've asked the people in my life. I. think that there's more stillness. Um, I. can't run anymore. Um, which is all for. the better. But there are things that, you know, I've slowed down to recognize. when I do something. I can understand. why I do the things I do, why I am the.

way that I am. And I think it it gives. more of me. There's more of me for my. relationships and my friendships and my. parenting. And so the girls, as you. said, the girls didn't question why why. didn't you tell or. all the other things that so many other. people look at, but they were just there. for you and saw you as a full person in. that moment. They never questioned. And I think the. most important part about this book and. in writing this book that was when I.

wrote this book, I never knew that. anyone would ever read this book. I. never had an inkling that it would see. the light of day. I wrote this book in. my closet on the bathroom floor for. myself. And I could say that in the. early part of the writing as as it all. unfolds and with trauma like this, I'm. sure you probably agree, it unfolds in. layers in a way much like a book, like a. chapter. And my book is not about just.

what happened to me. It's not the story. of what actually happened to me. It's. the processing of it. It's the telling. of all the people in my life which were. in many ways more difficult than. experiencing the trauma for myself to. have to go in and be honest with each. person in my life. And to recognize that. every time you go to tell someone they. may be in a very different place than. where you are. So in the cultivating of. relationships, I talk about, you know, my life as this.

tapestry and I have taken what was a. tragedy and turned it into this tapestry. of relationships for which I'm immensely. grateful. But in each one of those. relationships, as I was building this. this quilt, I had to go and pull those. threads and tell people what had gone. on. And that was a real blessing. Hm. Chantel, it's your birthday and I know. you have a question. First of all, let's. all say happy birthday to you,

Chantel. That was beautiful. Thank you. [laughter]. Thank you so much for sharing your. story, Amy. I truly feel empowered and. it was really just reading your. experience and how you continually. process it, understanding that healing. is a journey. I just want to know from. you, how do you manage everyday. triggers? Well, practically, I listen to Fortnite by Taylor Swift on. repeat a thousand times.

Anything by Taylor Swift. And then I. will say also I still movement is still. really important for me. And but it's. slow, it's gentle, it's maybe back to. what that therapist, that physical. therapist said to me, why do you move so. fast? And so now in this recognition um. there is movement. There are lots of hot. baths. I think that everything that I. come up with creatively comes from being. in the bathtub when the water is running. and my brain is too. Really?

Yes. So when the bathtub like gets filled, I. even open it up a little bit and let the. water keep running. Yes. And it's like it opens up that valve of. creativity for me. I had to do something recently and Gail. goes, "Go sit in the tub. [laughter]. Go sit in the tub. Run some water." It's. true. my mom would either say go take a. bath or could you please go for a run. because my mom knows me so well. And so. I would say that but I would also say. that when there are those everyday. triggers that instead of going why did I. do that I go tell someone and I share it.

and it's not as scary once I go and I. tell someone and then I can see in their. eyes you know they can they can hold it. for me. and and that's how I've that's how I've. coped. Thank you. Happy birthday, Shannon. My question as I was reading through the. book is what is something that you. gained that you did not expect from. writing the book? Good. Shannon, [laughter]. what did you gain? Well, one just from the writing um.

vulnerability just purely understanding. that vulnerability is actually equates. to me as powerful now. I I like I sense. so much power in vulnerability and I. appreciate that um because it makes me. so much more reachable with everyone in. my life and both in my business and the. the founders that I get to work with and. my children and my husband. And the. other thing from the book piece of it, I. have to say that um another author. friend said to me, Amy, the publishing. of a book is one thing and your ego can.

get involved and you can care about the. book coming out, but you have to. remember the book is all about the. people that you will meet along the way. Now, never could I have imagined. [laughter]. I. there I was. along the way [laughter]. Oprah. But but as I sat um the woman who. was my uh practitioner when I had my. MDMA session, she would say often to me, Amy, the end is glorious. There is. something glorious waiting on the other.

side of this process you were going. through. This was the glorious ending. that she would have never anticipated. that I was sitting here with you, able. to tell this story and share it with so. many other people. coming from the words. that I put on the page just for myself. and then in realizing the the deeper. connection. that I could have in telling one person. and another person. and then she's now telling her daughters. and that they're telling their friends.

and that is what it means to pass it on. Maggie, hi. Thank you. So, I am a survivor as well. So, thank you so much for sharing your. story. It was deeply impactful for me in. the first few months following my. assault. I think what have what would. have been so helpful is to understand. how much self-doubt would play a piece. in all of this. And really, I think what. would have been helpful is. kind of something that I could hold on. to to really work through that. self-doubt. And I'm just curious what.

you would tell somebody who's maybe in. those first few moments after, you know, their abuse or their assault and they're. really trying to focus on this healing. journey, which is lifelong, of course, but they just want something that they. can do to really instill that trust in. themselves again and trust their. intuition more so too. So, I'd love to. know your thoughts on that. Well, first. I'm I'm focused on saying I'm sorry and. thank you for being here in the front. row to look me in the eye and share and.

tell. And I would say that I think one. of the most important things is which is. in all the running. You know, in the. book I talk about this lawyer that I had. to work with in Amarillo named Duke who. kept saying, "You need to slow down. You. need to slow down." and it infuriated. me. Even though he was responding to the. criminal investigation, he was saying I. needed to slow down. And as mad as I was. at that process, I think the idea that.

it is a process and that for, you know, you see me in this dress today and you. see my husband and we're sitting here, we have prepared to come on the Oprah. show. But there are many, many moments. where it was bleak and dark and it's. okay. And in a way, I don't I would. never say I miss those moments, but I'm. grateful that I had them because it. makes me understand understand myself. better and I'm so connected to myself. and those memories of those days where. it wasn't going so great. So, it's slow.

Just take it slow. And that's what I. would say that to take it slow and and. and [clears throat] to write it down. Have to write it down. Hi, Amy. My name is Heather. Um, and. thank you for sharing your story and. being so vulnerable as a mom. I have. three daughters and they're actually the. same age as that you were when you went. through this, 17, 15, and 12 and I'm. raising them in the south in a suburb. And so I saw a lot of terrifying. parallels in your story. Um, the.

expectation of perfection, how you. should behave in society, southern. southern bells, all of those things. So. my question to you is to shift those. perspectives. It has to start with our. young men as well. How has your story. impacted your sons? And have you shared. your story with your youngest son yet? Wow, that's a gift of a question. [laughter]. because two nights ago I went into our.

youngest bedroom and I said, Julian, you know, I just thought about something. and I thought about the idea that the. word that I went into his room thinking. about was consent. And I said, you know, I realized that. you were seven when I started writing. this book. And like any parent a few. years ago, um I did tell him my story. and I did it I had consulted every. parenting manual and I sat you know they.

say do it where you're sitting at a deli. counter where you're driving or where. you're doing something with them and in. my case I told him the story when I was. doing a puzzle with him and he kind of. shook his head. Okay, got it. Do you. want to ask any more questions? No. And. then I left it and two nights ago when I. was back in his bedroom I went and I. said, you know, I have to tell you. something. I'm about to go on the Oprah. show and I just want to make sure that. you know that has anyone asked you about. my book because it's coming out. People. are talking about it. And he said, "Yeah, a few of my friends have." And I.

said, "Well, what do you tell them?" He. said, "Um, I tell them it's about. memories and your life.". And I looked at him and I said, "But. guess what? You can tell them whatever you want. You. can tell them all of it. You can tell. them everything I told you. you can tell. them how you feel about it and you can. tell them that maybe this story might. help them. And he said, "Okay, mom." And. then he said, "And now I'm ready to read. it because he's old enough to read the.

story.". How old is he now? He's 12. 12. Wow. Jessica. Yeah. Okay. Hi, Amy. I want to thank you so much for. telling your story. You are so brave for. so many reasons, but to not only tell. your story, but to write a book about it. and share it with the world is truly. courageous. It's inspirational and gives. a voice to so many survivors. I myself. am a survivor of sexual assault. I am a. clinical social worker, so I work with. many survivors. And I also have so many.

close friends because of how pervasive. this issue is. And often times, more. often than not, survivors are shamed or. discouraged from coming forward and. telling their story. And in the book, you mentioned how fortunate you were to. have such a strong support system and to. have the means to access the resources. that you needed in this process on this. healing journey. And so my question to. you is for survivors who don't have. strong support systems and don't have.

the means to access these resources, what advice would you give to them on. where to begin and how to really embark. on this journey? Well, thank you and thank you for the. work you're doing to also now pay it. forward after your experience. You know, that's what also in writing. this book and realizing that I have so. many resources and I tapped into all of. them. I read every possible book. I. tried every possible therapy. I was. going to work my way out of this in many. ways. And I think what came down to the.

writing of this book and the whole. meaning of this book is that it's in the. tell. And so resources or not, I just. hope that every person who's been. through something like this or has any. kind of broken part of them can find one. person in their life and to know where. that person is in their life, but to be. able to go to them and trust them with. their story and have them hold it and. repeat it back and have the. conversations back and forth, that's the.

start and that's what has to happen. And. I think when I envision this book, I envision that people take the book and. they pass it openly to a friend at a. cafe, at a Starbucks. They don't have to. hide it anymore. They pass the book and they say, "Just. read this." And then I hope that this. book will sit on nightstands and then.

people will read it and refer back to. it. My my dream is that in 10 years. someone will write me and say, "Hey, I. just have to tell you something. Um, this book helped me so much and it. changed my life and. that I they pulled one passage out of it. and then that will be reason enough for. me to have written the book.". I think you have reason enough already. I think the fact that she's sitting down. with her daughters and having the. conversation and everybody leaving here. who has read the book is going to have a.

conversation with somebody else. You're. already doing it and I thank you so much. as I said in the beginning for having. the courage and I I just want to second. what you just said that every time you. tell the story you find somebody who is. worthy of your trust. who's worthy of. your trust. And I know that if we have. this many women in a room and the stats. are one out of three, there are a lot of. us who have stories to tell about what.

has happened. And you find just one. person as Amy was saying, just one. person. And the more you tell it, the. more you release. And the whole goal is freedom for. yourself, is liberation. The tell is. about liberation. And I wanted to ask. you, do you finally feel free? H I feel so free in this moment. I felt.

free since the minute I said the words. to John when he came down after my. session. It was the most. liberating moment of my life. Oprah, it. was other than the days that you go into. a hospital room and you have a baby and. you come out with three people. Yeah. or the day that I jumped up and down at. the altar for my volleyball days. I was. jumping up and down to marry him. It was while on one the hardest day of. my life, it was also the most liberating. day in my life.

And so I feel so much freedom. And I. want to say that, you know, the person who really cares. about this freedom. is the 12-year-old me. And the real. conversation, the telling that has to. happen that happened along the way in. the writing of this book was the telling. to my 12-year-old self, "He did not dim your light.".

And for that 12-year-old self to then. say back, "You didn't let him dim your. light. You don't have to show up sad at the. Oprah show.". Yeah. And that is pure freedom. Thank you. Thank you. [applause]. Thank you for the gift [cheering] of. liberation. Amy Griffin. tell a memoir is available wherever. books are sold and I hope this episode. inspires all of you who are watching or.

listening to read the tell and share it. with a loved one. audience. Thank you. for your really thoughtful questions and. thanks to our extraordinary partner. Starbucks for supporting us. I love the. idea of good coffee and good books and. good company all coming together at your. neighborhood Starbucks cafe. And the. pairing this month, as I said, is the. anniversary blend. And we hope you all. join our community and become a part of. all of our conversations on the Oprah. podcast. Subscribe to the show on.

YouTube and follow us on Spotify or. Apple Podcast or wherever you listen or. watch us here on YouTube. Go well. everybody. Thank you Amy. Thank you. [applause]. I want you to know this conversation is. not intended to offer medical advice. Psychedelics remain illegal in most. states. So I encourage you to consult. your own health care professional before. considering any kind of mental health. treatment.