Will Biden Withdraw?

from The New York Times I'm Natalie. ketro this is the. [Music]. daily President Joe Biden's disastrous. debate performance last week set off a. furious discussion among Democratic. officials donors and strategists about. whether and how to repace him as their. party's. nominee today chief White House. correspondent Peter Baker takes us.

inside those discussions and Biden's. effort to shut that conversation. [Music]. [Applause]. down it's Monday July. [Music]. first Peter you've been reporting on. what I think can be best described as. the Great Democratic freakout that.

started basically from the moment the. debate began at 9:00 p.m. on Thursday. night tell us about the aftermath yeah. I've been covering politics for 38 years. and I've never seen a political Panic. like we saw after that debate it was. like a run on the bank everybody in the. Democratic party was suddenly confronted. with what they didn't want to admit up. until then which is that they have an. 81y old candidate who would be 86 at the. end of a second term and it's very. possible that he was not capable of.

completing this campaign in a vigorous. and competitive way against Donald Trump. that's what really it comes down to for. many Democrats can Joe Biden take the. campaign to Donald Trump and stop what. they think is an existential threat to. the country I want to know more about. who you were hearing from who are the. people that are calling you what are the. big questions they're asking what are. they struggling with yeah I don't want. to get into too many names A lot of. people don't want to be out front but. you did see even publicly.

people like Senator CLA mccal Joe Biden. had one thing he had to do tonight and. he didn't do it the former senator from. Missouri Red State Democrat was on MSNBC. just minutes after the debate he had one. thing he had to accomplish and that was. reassure America that he was up to the. job at his age and he failed at that. tonight she talked about you know this. was a crisis the her phone was blowing. up with a lot of Democrats and she was. very forthright about it's very striking.

that she said that I think there's a lot. of people who are going to want to see. him consider taking a different course. now people like van Jones who was on CNN. he used to work in the Obama white house. uh we're still far from our convention. and there is time for this party to. figure out a different way forward if he. will allow us to do that he very. candidly talked about how this was going. to raise questions about whether the. President should continue as the camp. candidate some Democrats are calling for.

Biden to step down Andrew Yang Andrew. Yang who ran against Biden in 2020 for. the Democratic nomination popular with. some younger voters he said on social. media it was time for Biden to step. aside those are some of the public. people and obviously in the hours and. days that followed more came out and. said well this is something we need to. think about but the people I was talking. to were people behind the scenes people. who have run white houses before people. who work for president Biden in this.

Administration I heard words like he. can't win this is a disaster this is a. nightmare and they were very very. concerned that he could not beat Donald. [Music]. Trump right and you saw these really. prominent media figures Outlets the. times is an actor in this situation. calling for Biden to step aside our Ed. torial board did this we should say this.

is entirely separate from our Newsroom. from the show but there was this real. Crescendo and there was a sense that. this was a turning point right. absolutely but it's not just the media I. think what the Biden campaign would like. it to be is about the media it's just. that the media tends to be more outfront. and say things more openly than. Democrats were saying it really was Rank. and file Democrats it really was high. ranking Democrats and they were. absolutely flipped out right these. doubts are coming from from all over.

from many corners take me through Peter. the argument for why this poor. performance meant that Biden should be. replaced how do they explain that. thinking well look what a lot of people. who defended president bid will say is. that incumbent presidents don't do well. in their first debate and that is true. historically that's been true Ronald. Reagan George W bush Barack Obama Donald. Trump all lost arguably their first. debate when they were running for. re-election but the difference is if. Obama you know doesn't register a good.

performance against Mitt Romney first of. all nobody thought that Obama wasn't. capable of being president as a result. and second of all he had another debate. about a week or two later in order to. try to recover neither of those factors. works here Biden's problem from this. debate is much more existential it's. much more profound because it's about. whether he is able to perform the office. of President not just for the next few. months but for the next four and a half. years and there's not going to be. another debate until September so he. doesn't have another big audience.

opportunity to change people's minds to. show that in fact he does still have it. and can run the country and that's a. real problem for him and there's this. broader context here right voters have. been telling pollsters for a year now. that Biden's age is a major concern for. them we've seen Biden's age before our. very eyes we've seen him stumble in. speeches and public appearances and. Peter we had talked to you about this. very issue a few months ago after a. special counsil investigating Biden's. son h Hunter issued this report focusing.

on Biden's mental state in part you know. saying that the president was quote a. well-meaning elderly man with a poor. memory and had quote diminish faculties. in advancing age but at the time the. White House dismissed that report as a. partisan hit job so in a sense this. debate performance was the Capstone of. something that's been in the air for a. very long time it's just that this time. it was undeniable there was no spinning. it well I think that's exactly right.

there was no spinning it one Democrat. put it to me he said you know for a long. time the fear of trump stifled. Democratic criticism of Biden people. didn't want to criticize him because. they desperately want to beat Trump but. now that same fear he said to me now. meant that they could no longer stand. behind Biden that they worried that he. had been diminishing over a period of. time and that his staff and the people. around him had hidden that from the.

public there's a real anger out there. among some Democrats now what the Biden. Circle would tell you is no we didn't. hide anything from you yes he does have. moments where he is not as Lucid as you. would want him to be but that broadly. speaking when they see him operate when. they're sitting with him in the Oval. Office or in the situation room he is. sharp he asks good questions he. understands and grasps the issues that. he is confronting and I mean we all have. good days and bad days but when you're.

81 your good days and bad days may be. more pronounced right and if he has good. days and bad days well Thursday night. was a very bad night Peter I I want to. ask you about that about your view on. all of this because I do think all this. has raised this fundamental question for. a lot of democrats for a lot of. journalists for voters which is what. you're getting at was what we saw on the. debate stage the real Biden and had the. White House been hiding him from us or. were the people around him just unable.

to recognize the Perils of this. themselves like have they been. gaslighting us all or are they in denial. yeah it's a good question that's the. question in some ways right I think that. people who work closely with the. president and like him admire him. respect him want to see the best in him. and want everybody else to see the best. in him and they have been unwilling to. admit whether or not he has you know. slipped in the last three and a half.

years and part of it may be strategic. they recognize in their view that he is. the president they've got to build him. up and make him as successful as. possible and they have shielded him as. much as possible from public scrutiny he. hasn't give as many interviews or as. many press conferences as any of his. predecessors going back to Reagan he's. never get interviewed to the New York. Times or the Washington Post or the Wall. Street Journal or the LA Times or any. other newspaper which is I think the. first president certainly in my lifetime. who hasn't uh done that and that's been.

part of a pattern of of them trying to. protect him and I think there's kind of. a reckoning right now among other. Democrats wondering whether they went. too far okay so we have this huge. reaction to this moment the debate from. the Democrats and the news media can you. walk us through how the Biden team. responds to the full-blown panic his. campaign was thrown into full-blown. damage control over the weekend and the. president himself set out to do two.

things first privately he met with. donors and assured them yes he's still a. viable candidate and that they should. still support him and then publicly he. went on a campaign bullets traveling to. seven events in four states and his. first stop on Friday in fact was at a. rally in Raleigh North. Carolina hello hello hello this was. already scheduled before the debate but. it gave him an opportunity to both show. that he can do job thank you North.

Carolina to demonstrate Vigor and. vitality I don't know what you did last. night but I spent 90 stage 90 minutes on. the stage debating a guy who has the. morals of an. alleycat and to address his own. performance of this I know I'm not a. young. man take the obvious well I. know and he says pretty candidly he says. yeah I'm not a young man I don't walk as.

easy as I used to I don't speak as. smoothly as I used to I don't de debate. as well as I used to but he goes on but. I know what I do know I know how to tell. the. truth I know how to tell right from. wrong I know how to do this. job I know how to get things. done I know like millions of Americans. know when you get knocked down you get. back up.

and you know he comes across as pretty. vigorous pretty energetic of course he's. reading from a teleprompter always a lot. easier to read from a teleprompter but I. think more important than that was the. body language and the spirit that he. brought to the moment it sounds like. teleprompt or not the Biden who appears. at the rally is meaningfully different. at least in style from the president. that we saw on the debate stage I'm. wondering if you think this has changed. anything has the conversation changed no. not not fundamentally I think.

fundamentally that people still. recognize that there's an issue here now. there was push back among Democrats. saying okay take a breath get a hold of. yourself he's not dropping. out I don't think you judge a person's. uh the body of their work on one night. they don't always go the way you want to. I have confidence in the president uh. because he's delivered and I understand. that you know he had a a raspy voice but. like I've told folks who cares we have a.

choice this November between someone. that's a good person a good president. with a real record of results and. someone that has brought shame on the. presidency don't let 90 minutes Define a. career of a president who's been in. office for three and a half years been. in politics for 50 years and uh. overshadow the the important issues that. he stands for and so you heard that line. of thinking in the spin room and on TV. look I think Joe Biden had a bad debate. night but it doesn't change the fact.

that Donald Trump was a bad president. and by the way Trump did terribly too. which is a fair point Trump may have. been more Lucid in the sense that he. sounded stronger but if you actually. looked at what he said listen to what he. said he said so many things that were. just not true and it helped Biden that. former president Barack Obama put out a. statement saying hey guys I've seen bad. debates it's fine don't freak out in. effect is what he said and Jim klyber. and uh if he asked my opinion I would.

give it as I always do who is his very. close Ally in Congress from South. Carolina the congressman who helped get. him the nomination in the first place. said stay the course he should stay in. this race he should demonstrate going. forward his capacity to lead the country. so it was important to have those voices. out there among prominent Democrats. trying to calm the waters but it only. went so far because the waters are still. churning underneath. Peter I'm curious how his donors are.

reacting to all this I mean you. mentioned that part of his fullt press. is to reassure them that he's got the. mental accuity to run how successful has. he been at that yeah I think that. there's certainly some donors who are. resigned and they feel like there's not. much choice but there are others who. actually are considering jumping off the. boat jumping on what Ma brazinsky on. Morning Joe called the hysteria train. and I think that um it's an open. question but part of the thing is of. course they're waiting to see how the. polls really shake out the initial polls. after any debate are often not really.

representative of how an event settles. into the political narrative and the. polling and data so far have been kind. of contradictory on the one hand it. shows that Trump clearly beat Biden that. Biden clearly lost and that Biden has. only reinforced the doubts that most. voters have about his age and and mental. capacity that's absolutely true at the. same time there's some polling showing. that the overall horse race number who. are you going to vote for hasn't moved.

dramatically yet if it does at all and. that you know it's possible this is. baked in that people who were going to. vote against him are still going to vote. against him the people who going to vote. for him holding the nose may not be. happy about it may still be voting for. him but there's a tell the tell was from. the Biden campaign when they put out a. memo by jeno Mali Dylan who's his top. political person at the campaign and she. says if you see polls go down in the. next few days or weeks what's telling is. that she is in fact anticipating that.

polls would be bad for them and trying. to set expectations for supporters and. voters and donor saying don't let that. Panic you any further that's that's. normal and we'll get past that just as. we have other bumps in the road it seems. like the Biden effort over the weekend. has in some sense quieted some public. doubts from Key Democrats right there's. not a we didn't see a deluge of senior. lawmakers going on Sunday talk shows uh. and saying Mr President step aside but. from what you're saying and based on the. reporting that we've seen from our.

colleagues the effort has not by any. means ended the discussion about. replacing Biden that is very much still. happening under the surface yeah that. discussion is very much alive among. Democrats will Biden and should Biden. remain as the. candidate and the question then becomes. is if he doesn't what then. [Music].

we'll be right. back Peter given that this discussion of. Biden stepping aside is still as you. said very much alive what would it look. like for someone to replace him on the. presidential ticket at this point in the. campaign just a few months before. election day it sounds like it would be. pretty daunting yeah I mean look we have. never had a situation like this not. certainly in modern times no president.

has ever dropped out of the race so late. in the cycle and you have to remember a. couple things first of all the. Democratic National Convention which. would anoint a new nominee is in late. August but they're actually scheduled to. take a roll call vote before the. convention begins on August 7th so that. means we have five weeks between now and. when the roll call is scheduled to be. held to decide a nominee if the. president were to drop out that would. create this truncated incredibly intense.

incredibly wideopen incredibly volatile. short campaign to figure out who would. be the nominee and it's complicated. logistically it's complicated. politically it's complicated in all. sorts of ways and we don't really know. what's going to happen or how it would. happen because we've never seen it. before but it is conceivable it is. possible the president has to decide. that he's not going to run if that. doesn't happen then there's no contest. there's no way anybody sees of forcing.

him off the ballot if he chooses to. continue to run there doesn't seem to be. any appetite for trying to find a way to. undo his nomination other than with his. consent he controls the 3900 delegates. that are going to be at the convention. they're obligated to vote for him on the. first ballot so it has to be first his. decision on whether he continues to run. if he does then that's it that's the end. of that question but if he doesn't then. it's jump ball.

would his replacement automatically be. kamla Harris as the vice president no. not at all if it were after the. convention and they were both nominated. and then he stepped aside the last. minute then they probably would simply. go to conla Harris because she had been. ratified by the Convention as the vice. presidential candidate that's possible. but if we're talking about a situation. before the convention it's anybody's. guess there's about a dozen other. prominent Democrats out there who are. looking at jumping in if suddenly the. nomination is up for grabs but so who.

are we talking about what are some of. the most prominent names that have come. up well other than Comm Harris you have. a number of Governors particularly Gavin. Newsome of California Gretchen Whitmer. of Michigan JB priter of Illinois there. are of course those who ran last time. who might jump back in in theory Senator. Corey Booker senator Amy kobitar. potentially even maybe Pete Budaj who is. currently the transportation secretary. but the ones who are going to have the. best chance are those who have an. apparatus already who have a set of.

donors and fundraisers who can raise. money instantly and who have the ability. to get on TV and get media attention. without having to work as hard for it. and that does suggest obviously a. sitting vice president or a sitting. Governor basically hitting reset on the. whole nomination process requires. embracing a moment of genuine political. chaos I mean that's the theoretical. downside of this but of course I mean. there's also a potential upside right. massive media tension potentially for. whoever the replacement Democrat is the.

possibility that that replacement could. energize a lot of democratic voters and. Independence and even potentially. moderate Republicans out there who. dislike Trump but just couldn't get. excited about Biden yeah absolutely. whoever emerges will have a certain. advantage of freshness right and that. person will have a generational argument. to make against Trump because whoever it. would be would be younger than Trump and. suddenly Trump is then the old candidate. he's 78 and that new Democratic. candidate will be able to say I'm the. Next Generation. this guy is also too old to be president.

and if you're concerned about our guy. was can he make it through 4 years then. you should be picking me because the. other guy can't make it either through. four years now the downside of course is. these are people who are largely. untested on a national stage at least in. this kind of an environment and you. don't know how people will do once they. actually jump in they didn't have the. advantage of a year-long primary contest. to prove themselves before you jump into. a race you can look really attractive.

look at Ronda santis before he jumped in. to the Republican primaries on the. Republican side they all thought wow. he's really great didn't turn out to be. so great once he got on the campaign. Trail the magic didn't actually appear. so that's the danger here is we don't. know which of these Democrats if any. would have the ability to shine when the. big giant CLE lights are on. them and we're clearly in a delicate. moment right now but are any of these. potential contenders trying to Signal. interest at this point I mean what does.

that look like it sort of seems like the. art of raising your hand for something. but not wanting it to publicly yeah it's. a really good question because you. obviously can't do anything that seems. disloyal to Biden right nobody's willing. to take on Biden directly and say I'm. now running and you should take him down. so the trick here is you have to be. loyal loyal loyal right up to the minute. the Biden say is not running at which. point then suddenly you're Off to the. Races and doing that from a standing.

start is not a good idea for any. campaign so they have to find ways of. talking to their people lining up donors. thinking about what kind of a campaign. would look like who might be their. strategist without letting anybody know. that they're doing that at least not let. anybody in our business know that. because it would obviously backlash on. them and that's a very hard thing to do. I mean I've heard that there are people. out there making phone calls who want to. run but nobody's going to admit that. outright because it would be damaging to.

them and in terms of logistics here I. know this is all very hypothetical but. if a new candidate were to become the. nominee do they get all the money Biden. raised do they get his campaign team or. are they literally creating a. presidential campaign from scratch with. four months to go I mean presumably they. would adopt a lot of Biden's apparatus. as for the money a lot of the money. these days is in kind of super packs and. these sort of amorphous uh structures. that can go immed medely to a different. candidate and everybody who contributed.

to Biden can now contribute to the new. candidate and then Biden can still spend. his money as he chooses in support of. whoever the candidate is so there's that. advantage in a way it could actually. increase some fundraising but you're. right they would be starting from. scratch in a lot of ways at least in. terms of a National. Organization and obviously for this to. even happen it relies on Biden stepping. aside here as you said everything you've. laid out so far suggests that he is for. now at least closed off to this.

suggestion and I have to ask what you. think from your reporting would change. that well President Biden is a proud man. he's a stubborn man as a lot of people. of any age are he is reluctant. to confront and face his own weaknesses. and he's not going to be talked out of. running by a bunch of media chattering. class hits and Junior Democrats I mean.

think about he's been running for. president since 1987 and the idea that. he is now in office and running the. country and as he thinks it running it. pretty well that he's going to Simply. step aside because a bunch of people. tell him he should he reacts visy to. that of course he doesn't want to do. that in fact when you talk to Democrats. they're very conscious of not trying to. push him because they could have the. opposite reaction right it could trigger. him to want to stay even more the people. who have influence with him not that. many people I mean at this point he's.

been in politics since 1972 when he was. elected to the Senate and the people he. considers his peers most of them are. gone right he he's not surrounded by. people whose opinion he truly respects. Obama and Clinton the only two former. presidents out there other than Jimmy. Carter who are Democrats I don't know. that if they told him it was time to. pull the plug that he would listen to. that in fact he might again do the. opposite he still resents Obama for. discouraging from running in 2016. obviously Congressional leaders like.

Chuck Schumer Nancy Pelosi hakee Jeff. Jim kber and people like that could have. an influence if they were to go as a. group to him in the way like the. Republicans went to Nixon in 1974 and. said that you know he wasn't going to. survive maybe that might influence him. but I don't think they're likely to do. it doesn't look like they're likely to. do that who does have his year I mean. who does he really listen to who do we. know he's going to be listening to In. This Moment well the real people he. listens to the most are his family the.

very family oriented guy remember he. went home to Wilmington almost every. night when he was a Senator even now is. present he flies home to Wilmington most. every weekend and he's at Camp David. this weekend with his family they're. there because they had already planned. to be together for a photo shoot. ironically with Annie Lebovitz so the. family was already gathering at Camp. David which gives him an opportunity. right it gives him an opportunity to. have a heart-to-heart conversation with. the people who mean the most to him in. particular Jill Biden of course the.

first lady his sister Valerie the kids. and the grandkids we don't know what. that conversation looks like I mean. that's that's priv as it comes someday. there'll be histories written and. Memoirs written and I'm fascinated to to. read what's happening this weekend at. Camp David because I think it's kind of. pivotal but what we do know is that up. until now at least Jill has been all in. she's been encouraging to run and it. sounds like she's been encouraging to. stay in and a lot of people think her. voice is the most important voice in. this. and just to pause on this for a second.

Peter it sounds like you're saying. something pretty remarkable actually. which is that this very small handful of. people have influence over what is going. to be a massive decision that affects. hundreds of millions of Americans and. and really the entire. world well don't underplay it but yeah. that's exactly right uh and and and. you're right to point out the stakes. here because it's not just about Joe. Biden and his future it is about this. presidential race and it is about. whether you want Donald Trump back in.

office that's the way most Democrats. look at it and the difference between a. Biden presidency and a trump presidency. is about as Stark as you can imagine and. this will have consequences that will. Ripple out for years to come Peter I. kind of want to end where we began this. conversation which is with this question. of Democrats mindset right now post. debate and and the question of what's. motivating them in this moment privately. they're talking about replacing Biden. they seem too scared to do that publicly. for all the reasons we've discussed.

including that the White House is. basically telling them to stop talking. about it and that Biden probably won't. step aside anyway so all of this may. just be useless hand. ringing and all of that raises a pretty. essential question for me which is are. Democrats about to recommit to a damaged. nominee who had a disastrous debate who. may only get worse over time out of. loyalty to President Biden or do you. think on some level they really believe. this is all just overblown that it's one.

debate everybody has bad days and Biden. really can recover from all. this I think there's a lot of doubt in. the party that he can really recover. from this is is the argument obviously. the Biden campaign is making and it's. really the only argument they have. available to them to say look don't. overreact here it's just the media. hyperventilating we will recover like. we've recovered before and it is what. they have to say because they don't have. anything else that they can say but. almost every Democrat outside of the.

Inner Circle that I talk to says this. was a complete disaster they are not. sugarcoating it they saw what they saw. with their own eyes and they think that. it's not tenable for the campaign to. pretend otherwise and it's particularly. devastating because the weakness of the. Biden campaign has always been concerns. about his age people have expressed that. to pollsters and in interviews with. reporters going back more than a year. and now they just saw it for themselves.

on TV in their living rooms more than 50. million of them and to convince them not. to believe what they saw with their own. eyes is just a Monumental task. politically so for Biden's team and for. the Democrats it's a big role of the. dice do you stick with him and try to. correct the damage in the four months. you have or do you say it's time for. somebody else which is going to be a. roll of the dice.

itself and assuming Biden continues. Peter it sounds like we won't know if. that bet that bet that you know he's the. only one that ever beat him he's the. only guy that can get this done if that. was solid or diluted thinking until. November 5th on November 5th or whatever. day the election is resolved we will. know how history judges this.

and maybe everybody looks back on this. and says well that was close but you. know they were right to stick it out you. know because they won or in fact it was. a disastrous decision and they wasted an. opportunity to fix campaign that was. already having trouble hindsight will be. perfect but there's no question that. this weekend will be remembered as. perhaps the most decisive of this. campaign Peter thanks for coming on.

thanks for having. [Music]. me after we spoke with Peter the New. York Times reported that while I Camp. David Biden's family urged the president. to stay in the race arguing that yes he. could still show voters he's capable of. serving another 4 years. [Music]. we'll be right.

back here's what else you need to know. today early projections showed that. France's farri national rally party won. a decisive victory in the first round of. voting for the country's National. Assembly on Sunday National rally an. anti-immigrant party long on the fringes. of the French political scene captured. about a third of the vote according to. polls and now appears poised to become. the largest force in the lower house of. parliament the results dealt a blow to.

French president Emanuel macron who took. a gamble by dissolving Parliament last. month and calling for SNAP elections but. his bet that the farri right wouldn't. repeat its recent success in European. Parliament elections backfired a runoff. election between the leading parties. will be held on July. 7th today's episode was produced by AA. chur relle Banja will Reed and Rob zipco. with help from Olivia Nat and Lindsay. Garrison it was edited by Lexi di with.

help from Ben Calhoun Paige cowt and. Mike benois and special thanks to. Michael Barbaro contains original music. by Dan Powell Maran Lozano and was. engineered by Chris Wood our theme music. is by Jim brunberg and Ben lansberg of. wonderly. [Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Natalie.

kroof see you tomorrow. [Music].