Why the U.S. Just Indicted Cuba’s Former President

From the New York Times, I'm Natalie. Kitroeff. [music]. This is The Daily. >> [music]. >> On Wednesday, the US charged Cuba's. [music] former leader and communist. general Raul Castro with murder. The. charges stem from Castro's role in a. decades-old [music] incident when three. Americans were killed by the Cuban. government, and they were the latest. escalation [music] in the Trump. administration's campaign to force.

political change on the island. >> [music]. >> Today, my colleague Frances Robles on. the story behind the charges against. Castro, and Julian Barnes. >> [music]. >> on what the American government really. wants from Cuba. It's [music] Thursday, May 21st. Frenchie, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me, Natalie. You just. got out of this Department of Justice. press conference in Miami. You are in. fact still in your car, and we.

appreciate you making the time. So, tell. us what it was like. It was so interesting. I've been. covering judicial events and press. conferences and court cases and. announcements for many, many years, and. I can't say I've ever seen one quite. like this. Usually, these are held at, you know, either at a courthouse or an. office, maybe the district attorney's. office or the DOJ. So, they held it at. the Freedom Tower. So, that's the first. thing that was really fascinating. It's.

a really important historic building in. Miami. It's kind of a cool, old-looking. tower. And the reason it's an important. location is because. in the 1960s and the early '70s, it was. the Cuban refugee center. So, it's. basically Ellis Island for Cuban exiles. It was the first stop for many, many. thousands of people who left Cuba after. the revolution and came to live in. Miami. So, a lot of symbolism there for. people. >> Oh, 100% a lot of symbolism. And not.

only that, this event was held uh today. is Wednesday, May 20th, which is Cuban. Independence Day. So, that's uh you. know, symbolism squared for this event. An event where hundreds of people came. to attend. Politicians, mayors, federal. prosecutors who haven't worked there in. decades. I mean, it was a who's who of. the Cuban exile community of Miami. It. was the place to be. Absolutely. Okay, and what happens at this event?

How do the charges get rolled out? Good. afternoon. I'm Madeline Pumariega, president of Miami Dade College. Welcome. to the Freedom Tower. I was kind of. struck, to be honest, that the first. speaker was Madeline Pumariega, who's a. Cuban-American woman, the president of. Miami Dade College. The building that we. were in is part of Miami Dade College. And so, it was interesting to me because. she's a very prominent member of the. community. But, she's not a prosecutor. So, it told you a lot. It says that this. isn't just a {quote} {unquote} judicial.

or law enforcement event. This is a. community event. And to our brothers and. sisters in Cuba, we hear you. Freedom. will come. Cuba will be liberated. important event to the city of Miami and. the people in this entire community who. have been waiting 30 years for this day. >> [applause]. >> It is now my distinct honor, representing all of you, to introduce. the United States Acting Attorney.

General, Todd Blodgett. And she. introduced the Attorney General, the. Acting Attorney General, Todd Blodgett. The hundreds of people in the room got. up and gave him a standing ovation. before the man even opened his mouth. Everybody was cheering him on because. they knew what he was about to say. Thank you. Thank Thank much. It's great. to be here in the great state of. Florida. And what did he say? Yeah, he got right. into it. Today, we are announcing.

an indictment. charging Raul Castro. and several others with conspiracy to. kill US nationals. One of his first words were conspiracy. to kill US nationals. And they had some. break after that because everyone got up. on to their feet and started applauding. him again. And he just started reading out the. charges. Mr. Castro and the others are.

charged with additional crimes as well, including destruction of aircraft and. four. individual counts of murder. He was. being charged with conspiracy to kill US. nationals, two counts [music] of destruction of. aircraft, and four counts of murder. >> [music]. >> And just explain what these charges are. really about. What is the incident that. they're referring to. when they talk about murder?

The incident that this case is about. occurred in 1996. But really, to tell that story, I'm. going to go back further. I'm going to. go a little early in the '90s. There was. a point in the '90s where Cubans were. literally throwing themselves to the sea. to make it to the United States. They were doing that on inner tubes. They were doing that on old cars that. they rebuilt into a boat, on on rafts.

And so it becomes what's known as the. Cuban rafter crisis because there's so. many people, literally thousands and. thousands of people that were in the sea. trying to make it to the United States. And so with that crisis is born an. organization called Brothers to the. Rescue. And what they were doing, they were. Cuban-American pilots who raised money. to buy small planes, >> [music]. >> and they would fly over the Straits of. Florida between the Florida Keys and.

[music] Cuba. And it's where many, many. people died trying to make their way to. the United States. So, they would fly. over the waters and they would spot. somebody, you know, on a raft and an. inner tube, what have you, and they. would call the Coast Guard for help. So, this is a non-profit organization that. is attempting to help these [music]. people that are migrating en masse from. Cuba. Absolutely. They saved hundreds, if not thousands, of people. They did.

over 2,000 flights. It was a big deal. The Coast Guard was. overwhelmed. The Coast Guard couldn't. handle the volume. There was a point in. the summer of 1994, Natalie. This is a. true story where there were about 2,000. people a day [music]. were showing up in Key West. Crazy. >> [music]. >> So, why do I start with that? So, the. reason that's important is because at. some point the situation gets so dire. that the Clinton administration and the.

Cuban government reach an accord. Cuba. will try to prevent people from leaving. the island and the United States agrees. that when people are caught, they're. going to be turned back. And so, what. does that mean? It means that the. Brothers to the Rescue kind of no longer. has a mission. Mhm. So, they change. their mission and they start getting a. little bit more provocative and poking a. stick in the eye of Fidel Castro. How. so? They started dropping leaflets over. Cuba. They dropped religious medallions,

doing things like that. They were a. little bit more protest actions as. opposed to rescue missions. The Cuban. government was furious. They felt like this was an illegal. incursion into their airspace. They kept. on turning to the Clinton administration. saying, "You guys got to put a stop to. this.". Everybody and their mother warns the. organization, "You guys stop. This is. going to blow up in your face.". And the founder of the organization, who's a man named Jose Basulto, he felt. really strongly that this was his right.

This was his right as a Cuban, as a. Cuban American, and he was going to. continue those flights. And he did. And. what happened? >> [music]. >> So, one day, February 24, 1996, he left an airport outside of Miami. He. and two other planes left, and they fly down to Cuba. That day, [music]. they did cross what's known as the 24th. parallel. It's international airspace, [music].

but to the Cubans, they shouldn't have. been there. And so, the Cubans on air. traffic They're on air traffic control, and Jose Basulto, who's the founder of. Brothers to the Rescue, as he's supposed. to, he announces [music] himself to the. air traffic control, and he says, "Good afternoon. This is Jose Basulto. from Brothers to the Rescue. You know, it's a beautiful day up in the skies. above Havana.". And the Cuban air traffic control. responds to him saying, "You know, if. you're below the 24th parallel, that's.

an activated zone." That's what the word. that they used. >> [music]. >> And he says, "This is my right as a free. Cuban." And they continue their journey. And [music] so, the Cuban government, the Cuban military, shot two of the. planes out of the sky, killing four. [music] people, including three US. citizens.

I can't even describe for you the sense. of shock throughout South Florida. You. were covering at the time, right, Frenchie? I actually attended a friend. of mine wanted to go to the memorial. service at the Orange Bowl, which was a. big football stadium that we used to. have, and it was really dramatic. I. mean, it was hard to not feel. the emotion in the room. I I remember so. clearly, they started calling out the. names. of the guys, you know, Pablo Morales, and everybody cried out together.

Armando Alejandre, presente. I mean, I remember it today. like it happened yesterday. It was a a. really dramatic. moment for Miami. and for the United States. Right. And. this ties to Raul Castro because I. assume this is when he's Secretary of. Defense. Is that right? He was the. defense minister, and he gave the order. I mean, I don't think that there's too. much doubt about that because MIG pilots. in Cuba are not going to be shooting.

planes out of the sky without very clear. chain of commands orders. >> [snorts]. >> And just explain why, if it was so. clear, didn't the US bring charges. against him then? I've asked that same question to a. number of former federal prosecutors, and the sense that I got was it would. just be really destabilizing to. diplomatic relations, even though we. didn't really have any, and.

destabilizing in the region. Okay. Obviously now there is the. political will to indict Raul Castro, who we should say is a 94-year-old man. He was once the president of Cuba, but. he's not anymore. But what you're saying. is that targeting him is part of what. you've already told us the last time you. came on the show, which is there has. been this escalating pressure campaign. by the Trump administration on the Cuban. regime. You see this as another step in. that. Absolutely, Natalie. I do see this.

as a the latest step in that escalating. campaign. The Trump administration cut. off oil to Cuba. Last week they announced they don't have. any reserves left. That means places. like Havana have are going 22 hours a. day without electricity. We keep asking. people, "What's it like when the power. goes out that long?" And I've gotten a. very similar answer several times. They. said, "No, no, no, it's not when the. power goes out that's the problem. It's.

when the power comes on." Because the. power comes on at maybe 11:00 at night. or 12:00 and you got to jump out of bed. and you have to charge your phone, you. have to charge your laptop. And if. you're, you know, a family, you know, a. head of a household, you're getting a. pot of rice and beans on the stove to. cook the next day's meals. You're. hearing really, really dramatic stories. like that. People having to walk hours. and hours to their jobs. People who are. not able to work because their work. depends on having electricity and having.

internet. It's a really terrible. situation. And when you talk to Cubans. on the island, who do they blame for. this? Do they blame the US or their own. government? I would say that the answer. to that tends to be generational. I think older people are blaming the. United States. You know, the the talking. points from the government is certainly. that this is all the United States'. fault. And the younger people are much more apt. to blame the Cuban government for the.

mistakes that it's made during the. management of its country that led to. this fiasco. Okay, and what about the. reaction inside of the Cuban government? What are they saying about this vice. grip that the Trump administration has. on them? They say it's an illegal. I think they've used the word genocide, that it's going to lead to a bloodbath, and that it will be the United States'. fault. They don't recognize any errors that. they've ever made, and they 100% see.

this as the fault of the Trump. administration. And this is a group of. people who are used to weathering hard. times and still holding on to power, kind of fighting through. And it sounds. like they're still doing that. It's been 67 years, and they have had. really severe hardship in the past, and. they've always weathered. And I think a. lot of people. feel that maybe the Trump administration. is underestimating the degree to which. these people will want to hang on to.

power at any cost. >> [music]. >> After the break, my colleague Julian. Barnes takes us inside the US. government's broader strategy in Cuba. >> [music]. >> We'll be right [music] back. Julian, you cover the US intelligence. community, and you've been reporting on. this pressure campaign and the role of.

the CIA in amping that up. So, just tell. us what you've learned. What is the end. game in Cuba? Well, we don't know what the exact end. game is here. We don't know exactly what the US wants. But, what's clear is that the pressure. is only going to increase. This indictment is just the next step in. that, right? Like, it is a message.

to the Cuban government that what. happened in Venezuela could happen in. Cuba. Just want to pause on that, because I. think that is a big question that's been. hanging over all of this for those of us. watching. Is this a prelude to what we saw in. Venezuela, where Nicolas Maduro was. indicted by the US government and then. was extracted by the US military. Is.

that what this is about? It's very. important to note that our reporting. shows that President Trump wants the. option. He wants the option to do a. military extraction. to get Raul Castro, to put pressure on. the Cuban government. You saw Todd Blanch raise that. He. talked about how would they get Castro, right? And he talked about it being a.

Pentagon issue. That said, it's also important to note. that there aren't a lot of special. operations forces in the region. There. aren't special operations forces that we. know of that have been training for this. kind of operation. Cuba is very. different than Venezuela. The. circumstances are different. It seems that a actual military. extraction of Castro.

is pretty remote. You know, all the. special operations forces are still in. the Middle East. They're still geared up. to possible action against Iran, right? You have to reset and come back for. Cuba. And it wouldn't necessarily have. the same effect. Like, Nicolas Maduro. was the official president of Venezuela. Pulling him out triggered a change in. leadership. It allowed Vice President.

Delcy Rodriguez to become the acting. president, to take power. Raul Castro is a very important figure. in Cuba. He is very politically. influential. But if you grabbed him, it. wouldn't change any official leadership, right? The Cuban government would. continue on. Right. Everybody formally. in charge would remain formally in. charge because they would still be in. the country. Right. And so, when you. talk to outside experts,

it is that reason that in the end they. see this as a threat, as pressure, as a signal more than a sign of what is. to come. Okay. If it's appropriately. [snorts]. viewed as a threat, as a kind of chip in. these negotiations, in this game of. chicken that's happening, to what end? Like, what does the US. actually want from Cuba? Is the goal. really wholesale regime change?

They've been a little unclear in their. public comments about this. And. certainly the Cuban government wants to. know what the US demands are. But, we did in recent days start to get. some answers. John Ratcliffe, the CIA. director, last week took a trip to Cuba, first Trump cabinet official to go down. there. He delivered a message to the grandson.

of Raul Castro, the interior minister, and the head of Cuba's intelligence. services. And he talked vaguely about economic and. political change, but he also said that. Cuba can't be a platform for America's. adversaries. And the Cubans knew exactly what he was. talking about. That was a reference to. the Chinese intelligence post and the.

Russian military posts that are on Cuba. These are installations the Russians and. the Chinese use to intercept. communications inside the US. >> Mhm. They are listening to Southcom. They may be listening up at Central. Command. These are very important. military bases, and the US wants them. closed. And. this is a concrete ask, and it is.

something the Cubans could do, right? This is a step that they could take. There is a path to. reduce that intelligence collection. there, to either close the base or limit. the number of people there, or kind of. restrict it. Radcliffe basically told. the Cubans, "Look, if you want to do a. deal with us, you got to kick our. adversaries out. They're spying on us. from your country. They have to go.". What else did he ask for? Well, the. economic and political demands were a.

lot more vague, but we are getting a. sense of the kinds of things the US. wants to see. Mhm. And they range from. more extreme to easier things to do, but. they start off with reducing the power. of the military-industrial-backed. conglomerate that controls a huge chunk. of the Cuban economy. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> It could mean pushing more pragmatic,

less dogmatic politicians forward. And it also could be a step toward free. elections, right? Like, you could see. the US pushing for elections at the. local level to make those more. meaningful. And that would be a real. win. It would not be regime change. It. would not be a total change in communist. rule, but it would be a meaningful step. forward. And would one of the smaller,

more incremental of those demands. be seen as a real success by the Trump. administration. I mean, in Venezuela, they had this trophy of Nicolas Maduro. being brought to the US to theoretically. face justice. In this case, if they. aren't going to extract Castro, and. that's largely a symbolic move, if the. goal is really these more modest. changes, you could see the.

administration running the risk of being. seen as. making a compromise with an. authoritarian government in Cuba while. allowing them to remain in power, no? That is a very important point and one. that we can't lose sight of. Inside the United States, there is a big. constituency, an important constituency, an influential constituency for regime. change in Cuba. Cuban Americans have.

wanted for years and years to end. communist control of Cuba. Anything that. is short of that is going to feel. inadequate. On the other hand, the Trump administration knows that. sometimes when they reach for the big. goal, they fall short. And when they. reach for the smaller, they can be more successful. I assume.

when you're referring to reaching for a. big and difficult to achieve goal, you're talking about Iran. Yes. If you remember. on the night of the Iran war this year, President Trump delivered a video. address to the nation, and he talked. expansively about war goals. He talked. about regime change. He called on the. Iranian people to rise up. Right. And. pushing for regime change is not a.

narrow mission. It is not something that. is easy to achieve. It's something that. the US has struggled with in war after. war. They can do it, but it usually. requires a very big ground force and. unleashes forces that are out of. anyone's control. Mhm. Iran is a mess. Like, they don't have a peace deal. that's lasting yet. They're contemplating starting strikes. again.

The supreme leader has been killed, but. the government is as hardline as ever. They are not backing down from their. nuclear program demands. And if you look. at President Trump's other foreign. military adventures, foreign operations, they've been much more narrowly cast. with a very specific goal. to kill a specific leader, to bomb a. specific nuclear site, or in the. Venezuela case, to capture Nicolas. Maduro. When he has drawn the goals narrowly, he.

has seen more success. And so, if you look at Cuba, the kind of. long-term goal of many Cuban Americans. of a Cuba free of communism, that's. going to be harder to achieve. But, if. you look for more narrow goals, reduction of the power of the. military-industrial state, incremental steps toward elections, those are achievable things. You could.

make meaningful. progress. Even so, Julian, you more than. anyone know that Cuba has been in the. sights of the CIA for a very long time. So, why would the administration take. this on right now, given everything. you're saying, given that the. administration is already in the middle. of a war in the Middle East, that people. are already skeptical of what the. administration is doing abroad? Why do this now? Well, as you just said, Cuba has been a thorn.

in America's side for decades and. decades. This is not some adventure that. came out of this administration's head, right? There have been generation of. American leaders who have tried to. change the government in Cuba. It is. something that is very important to a. powerful constituency in the United. States. And Trump sees himself as someone who.

can cut through. >> [music]. >> bureaucracy, as someone who can solve. problems that have bedeviled the United. States for years. He's someone who has little patience for. >> [music]. >> progress or history, who believes. through the force of will he can fix. them or change them. And also, we do have Iran right now, and. Iran looks like a really difficult. problem. And all of a sudden, he's got. Cuba, and his pressure campaign is.

working better than they thought. [music] So, there's a sense here, among. some in the administration, that Cuba could be the success that. helps them move past the morass. >> [snorts]. >> of Iran. Trump [music] may essentially just be. looking for a win, you're saying. If we. know anything about Donald Trump, >> [music]. >> he's always looking for a win. >> [music]. >> Well, Julian, thank you so much for.

coming on. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. >> [music]. >> We'll be right [music] back. >> [music]. >> Here's what else you need to know today. >> [music]. >> On Wednesday, two police officers who. defended the US Capitol against a. pro-Trump mob on January 6th.

>> [music]. >> challenged the constitutionality of a. new $1.8 billion fund [music] that they. warned could reward those who. participated in the attack. Their. lawsuit will answer the question of. whether anyone has [music] the legal. standing to stop the Trump. administration from creating the. controversial fund. That fund is. expected to make payments to Trump. supporters, [music] including January. 6th rioters, who claim their. prosecutions were politically motivated.

>> [music]. >> And What I realized was a lot of. Americans who were not homophobic, but. thought they were supposed to be. And as. more of us came out and our reality. confronted the prejudice, uh, we we made great gains. Barney. Frank, the blunt-talking [music]. former congressman from Massachusetts, who for decades was the most prominent. gay politician in America, and who. [music] wrote the most sweeping overhaul. of US financial regulations since the. Great Depression, has died. He was.

[music] 86. His signature legislation, the. Dodd-Frank law, passed after the 2008. financial crisis. [music]. It regulated derivatives that had. worsened the crisis, imposed new rules. on large [music] banks, and created the. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau as. an industry watchdog. Asked about complaints [music] from. business leaders about the law, Frank. scoffed. Well, hate to say this, but what I the impression I get most is. that their feelings are hurt. Oh, you. were rude to us. You said we were fat.

cats. You hurt our feelings. Uh, get. over it. I mean, I I. I'm I'm in the kind of business where. people say rude things about us all the. time. No, I I've said that to them. Today's episode was produced Ricky. Nvetsky [music]. and Diana Wynn with help from Lindsey. Garrison. It was edited [music] by MJ Davis Lynn. and Michael Benwah. Contains music by. Elizabeth E tube, Marion Lozano, Pat.

McCusker and Dan Powell. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This. episode was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the daily. [music] I'm. Natalie Kitroeff. See you tomorrow.