Why One Lawyer Resigned When His Firm Caved to Trump: An Update

Hey, it's Michael. This week, The Daily. is revisiting some of our favorite. episodes this year, listening back and. hearing what's happened in the time. since they first ran. Today, we return to our conversation. with Thomas Sip, the lawyer who quit his. job at a prestigious corporate law firm. after his bosses gave in to legally. dubious demands from President Trump. And we hear how SIP views that moment. Now, eight months later, it's Monday,

December 29th. Thomas, welcome to the Daily. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm getting the small sense that this is. a nerve-wracking experience for you even. before it started. I'm just seeing it on. your face. >> Yeah, it definitely is. I want to start by asking you to explain. Thomas how it is that you came to be a. lawyer in the first place and ended up. at this very prestigious firm where you.

worked until just a few days ago. Scatteren Ararps. What's that story? >> So going all the way to the start, I was. born in Japan to an American father and. a Japanese mother. >> And my family moved to the United States. when I was 10. My parents separated. shortly after. And so, you know, I was. learning English in middle school and. also learning about what it means to be. an American. [clears throat] Suddenly. becoming this sort of racial minority.

because I'm mixed race and coming to. understand the social fabric that's kind. of unique to the United States. Um, especially compared to a relatively. homogeneous country like Japan, >> right? and you know growing up with my my. single mom who doesn't speak you know. fluent English and getting all those. sort of experiences I think started to. put me on the path that I'm on now. >> Can you just explain that? >> Yeah. I mean there were difficult days. for sure. you know, whether it's.

not being able to make friends, being. made fun of for my accent and stuff like. that that really I think started to form. uh like that sense of injustice that I. think fuels me sometimes, right? But at. the same time, I moved to the United. States, you know, in 2008 and during the. election and there's all this. conversation in America about. hopefulness and about, you know, this. being a country where there's a place. for for anyone,

>> right? And so I was also absorbing that. as well. >> Mhm. >> In high school, I joined a debate team. to practice public speaking. And in. college, I was studying political. science at the University of Texas. >> And I had this wonderful opportunity to. be a an intern at the United States. Senate. >> Wow. >> This was probably basically like a. decade after I moved to the United. States. And suddenly I'm walking through. the halls of Congress with my little,

you know, yellow Senate intern badge and. running into senators and congressmen. getting to sit in on important hearings. And it was during that time that I. really decided I want to be a part of. this project here in the United States. >> And when you say this project, >> what do you mean? >> It's, you know, a march towards justice, the betterment of everyone. I think. there are these like core principles. that are unique to the United States in.

many ways. >> I'm getting from you a real sense of. idealism and a real pure admiration for. what the United States represents. Yeah, I'm not blind to the errors in the past. and I I know that the United States has. not been and still is not a perfect. country, but I really still believe. that, you know, when the United States. is doing the right things, the whole. world is a better place because of it. >> So, talk about how this all translates.

into your decision to become a lawyer, to enter this industry. Well, so a lot. of the people with the cool jobs in DC. tend to have law degrees. And so I. figured it was the, you know, the next. best step um afterward. And so I go to. law school straight out of college. All. the law firms, the big law firms, um. almost by definition pay the same scale. salary. So that the way that these law. firms distinguish themselves from each. other often times is in things like how. their proono program operates, how how.

invested they are into diversity. initiatives. >> And I chose Scatteren because it had the. prestige. And as a as a 22-year-old. trying to pay off a six-f figureure. debt, I was drawn toward a higher salary. among other things. >> I'm just going to explain to people. >> Yes. By Scatteren, you mean Scatteren. Arps? >> Scatteren Arps. Yes. >> Big big law firm has an office here. New. York has offices I think all over the. world. It's one of the firms that we. think of when we think of this concept.

of big law law firms that do a huge. amount of work in corporate America. >> Mhm. [clears throat] That's right. And. Scatteren really advertised two things. It's proono program and its diversity. initiatives. With regard to the proono. programs, Scatteren had a rule basically. that said that you can count an. unlimited number of your proono hours. towards your billable hours requirement. And it was a big deal that Scatteren. does that because not many other firms.

do. >> So when did you start to understand that. Scatteren had entered the president's. crosshairs? So on March 17th when the. EEOC, which stands for the Equal. Employment Opportunity Commission, >> basically published this letter listing. 20 law firms, including my own, saying. that these law firms are essentially. under investigation for their practices. um related to diversity. >> Right. I believe the claim was that. these law firms may have practiced.

discrimination through the application. of diversity, equity, and inclusion. practices. >> Right. And these executive orders, I. think it's worth reminding listeners, they can feel to the law firms that are. being hit with them like death sentences. because they explicitly prevent these. firms like Perkins Kuey from interacting. with the federal government. And so the. people [clears throat] work at these. firms fear that they may go out of. business. >> Right. Yeah. And one of my friends from.

the firm sends me an article that the. New York Times published basically. stating that Scatteren was in talks with. the administration to avert an executive. order. And this was after Paul Weiss, which is essentially a pure firm, made a. deal including for $40 million proono. commitment to causes that the president. agrees with. And during that preceding. week, there had been, you know, pockets. of the law firm trying to organize some. sort of, you know, requests from a.

response, nothing publicly, but at least. internally, seeking clarity and hoping. to provide at least some input into what. the attorneys who actually work there. feel about what's going on and how so. many of us believe that it's. unconstitutional, >> the executive orders, >> right? Like, this is not a difficult. legal question. There's no legal basis. for what the president's doing. It's. complete abuse of power. And so we want. our firm to stand up for that, >> but we're feeling like things are moving. really fast and and we felt voiceless.

>> Mhm. So what what happens next? >> So there's this email thread that got. around to parts of the firm. And so when. I see that, I realize, you know, at that point. that's pretty likely that there's going. to be a deal. and that it's going to be one that the. attorneys don't like. [music]. >> And you know, within hours, I think. we again find out from the news.

that there [music] is this agreement. and then we hear from the firm. They. have done a deal. >> Yeah. [music]. [music]. We'll be right [music] back.

I just want to summarize what is in this. deal that Scatteren reached with. President Trump. It promises to provide. $100 million in proono legal services. from Scatteren to causes that both. President Trump and the law firm both. support. It calls for hiring what are. known as Scatteren fellows. Those. fellows are at least some of them. supposed to be focused on Trump friendly. issues and some of them have to be.

conservative. >> in their ideological outlook. And then. there's a part of the agreement that. vows that Scatteren will not engage in. quote unquote illegal DEI hiring. practices. Broadly, this is the deal that every. major law firm that has come to an. agreement has reached with the. president. So what is your reaction to. this deal when you finally digest it? Personally, I felt ashamed to work at. Scatteren and that's such a new.

experience because because of how you. know prestigious the law firm is and. then suddenly in you know the blink of. an eye in just a few days even like my. whole view of the firm has been. completely tainted. >> Can you explain what precisely is making. you feel the shame? >> You know it's a mix of things. This is. giving the president a PR win after. [clears throat] being bullied. So, it. seems like I'm working at a firm that,

you know, isn't as high caliber as it. said it was, >> right? But more importantly than that, so many lawyers agree that what the. president is doing is wrong. This is a. threat to our constitutional fabric, to. our democracy, to our civil liberties. You know, people should be able to be. represented by by their lawyers freely. Judges should be able to make decisions. even if it goes against the president. And to see Scatteren be complicit to aid.

this attack, I was so ashamed to work there. >> So what did you do? >> So I start actually just writing down. notes and really my questions. Some of. them are practical like how is this. going to be enforced? What will it. actually look like? And I started. thinking about it and finding answers. and so the questions became statements. and I realized what I had written was a.

draft of resignation letter. So that's. >> not necessarily what you set out to do. >> No. >> Can I ask you to to read from parts of. the letter? >> Yeah, of course. >> [clears throat]. >> Dear colleagues and friends, I'm writing to let you know that I'm. leaving [music] this firm. There was a time when my employment here. was so unlikely. For much of my early.

childhood, I [music] was not a good. student. I struggled to focus in class. and take anything seriously. But even. then, there was one subject I loved. History. I thought it was so wonderful to learn. about all that came before me, [music]. about the triumphs and tragedies, about. the moments of individual bravery and. [music] collective complacency. I would often imagine myself faced with. the same dilemmas. What would I do if I was there? Would I.

do the right thing? It always felt like there was no way to. know. I believe, as I know many of you do, that what the current presidential. administration is doing is wrong. That. we are sliding into an autocracy where. those in power are above the rule of. law. Scatteren's agreement with the Trump. administration sent our country deeper. down this descent. [music]. And then I finish,

Scatteren is on the wrong side of. history. [music]. I could no longer stay knowing that. someday I would have to explain why I. stayed. [music]. >> What did it feel like to hit send? I mean, listen to your. >> breathing right now. It's like you're. reliving it. >> Yeah. Um, >> what was it like to send that email?

If you heard my breath, it felt like. that. Uh maybe a hundred times more though. because I knew that, you know, that was. a pivotal moment in my life. Maybe maybe. just as pivotal as coming to the United. States in the first place. I knew that I. was closing some doors and, you know, a place like Scatteren. I'm grateful for that experience. I. think it's only possible in a country. like the United States. and I really.

really believe in it. >> I'm sure you're aware. >> that many people who have spoken out. against President Trump and his policies. have experienced at times ferocious. blowback. >> Mhm. >> It can be a lifealtering event. Is that. something you're worried about now? >> Yeah. And I was finally able to talk to. my mother after, you know, resigning and. she's in back in Japan. Hm. >> You know, with the rest of my family.

And I told her I quit. She's like, "Do. you have another job?" And I was like, "No, mom, you don't understand. Like, this is like in the news." And she sort. of didn't process it at first. And then. she started to cry. And she asked me to. come back to Japan. And I said, "No, like I can't and I won't.". >> Many of your colleagues are not leaving. their jobs. They may feel the way you. feel and have two kids they have to put. through college.

>> They might not feel the way you feel. I'm thinking about reporting my. colleagues did inside the upper echelons. of Paul Weiss when that law firm did a. deal with Trump. And it became clear. that the majority of the people who run. the firm, lots of them, felt that the. best thing to do was to make a deal to. protect the thousands of people who work. at these firms. And that at the end of. the day, what they're giving up is small.

compared to that survival. And the. bosses at all these firms that end up. capitulating to Trump say some version. of, "We are the same law firm after we. did these deals as we were before." In. fact, in a companywide email, your. former boss says just that, quote, "This. agreement does not change who we are.". What do you make of that? >> I just don't think that's true. These law firms are agreeing to these.

deals when they know that there's no. legal basis for any threat executive. order. And by capitulating, they're. aiding, you know, this existential. threat against the profession, the. independence of the judiciary and our. democracy and everyone who depends on. it. >> It does change who the firm is. >> Yes. In short, >> yes, >> you very clearly have a lot of faith in.

the US, but at this point, how confident. are you given everything you've just. been through that the version of the. United States that seems to be at the. center of everything you've done here is. now the version of the United States? confident because of what so many. people, strangers, you know, reaching. out to me have said to me, which is that. they're also scared. Everyone is scared. But if everyone could, you know, stand.

up and speak up about this, then we can. turn this back, I think we can save it. still. >> But are you a little bit worried that. you're making the wrong bet? >> Well, of course I'm, you know, worried. I guess, you know, I'm putting my career. on the line for this and I I knew that. going into this. I have student loans. I. have a single mom who, you know, >> Andrew just publicly picked a little bit.

of a fight with the president. >> That's right. >> I wonder if this experience made you. question going into law. >> No, I don't I don't regret becoming a. lawyer. and going to law school. It's a. wonderful education. You know, even my time at Scatteren, I. learned so much and it's equipping me. with skills, I think, to advocate for. what I believe in and for for others as.

well. And that's what lawyers do. Well, Thomas, thank you for for coming. [music] in here and for telling us the. story. We really appreciate it. >> Thank you. after the break. How Thomas has fared. [music] since he quit his job.

[music]. >> Let's catch up. Okay. Formally. >> Okay. You look well. You look rested. >> The last time you saw me, I was running. on almost no sleep. >> Well, catch me up on everything that's.

happened to you. Last time we spoke, it. was just a few days after you quit your. job at Scatteren, >> right? >> Suddenly, you're not employed. You're. not getting any paychecks. >> What happened next? >> Uh, came on this podcast. [laughter]. >> I remember that part. and sounded like. people generally liked, you know, what I. said. And I got. so many heartfelt messages from people, you know, feeling that sort of.

hopefulness that I feel thinking about. these sort of democratic values, what it. means to be an American. Other people. reached out because they felt sort of. maybe a kinship, a sort of common. background, whatever it may be. There. were just some parents who were worried. about their kids and, you know, listening with their kids and those are. some of the most touching ones. There. was one in particular that really struck. me. It was a. >> Can you describe it? >> Yeah. It was a a father driving his kids. to school and they're listening to this. episode and he's asking kids his kids,

"What would you do. >> if you were in Thomas's position?". >> Yeah. Exactly. And that's the sort of. thing that when I was a kid, I would. think about in history class. And I. don't know, it was a really great. feeling and it gave me a real it's like. a win in my back. >> And what ends up happening to your job. prospects? Do you end up finding a job? >> Long story short, I do. I'm currently. working for a federal judge. >> And what can you tell me about that. work, how you got it, and how it may or. may not fit into the way that your last.

job ended. >> Uh, I can't tell you a lot, but I can. tell you some things. >> Okay. The judge actually found me. through his network and mine kind of. colliding. Uh I'm his the title is I'm a. law clerk and the job is essentially. analyzing the law, explaining it, making. recommendations to the judge. So you're. basically the judge's assistant. I know. when you clerk for a judge, this is my. sense, you may not be able to discuss a. lot of the intricacies of your work, but.

it strikes me that if you're working for. a federal judge, >> you're potentially interacting with. President Trump's agenda to some degree. and federal judges are the figures in. our legal system right now who are seen. as really the most powerful and. important potential checks on this. president. and I'm sure that hasn't escaped you. either. I'm to be honest I'm not going to talk.

about you know active cases that may or. may not be before my judge. because. there's pretty serious ethics concerns. about, you know, clerks typically don't. talk to the media, >> right? >> And. I want to make it clear that the judge's. job isn't to be a partisan actor. It's. to be the adjudicator of what the law. says. And as you know, my judge's clerk, that's also my job and responsibility. And I take that really seriously, >> right? And. I think the true interpretation is that,

you [clears throat] know, I made this. decision on on ethics grounds. And it. was about what I thought, you know, the. law was, what the constitution demands. And I was just hoping to explain my own. decision in a time when I think a lot of. people were facing a similar decision. and they weren't sure what it would look. like on the other side. And I guess right now I'm speaking to. you from the other side of that. decision. Say. I was fine. I was actually more than.

fine. >> There is another side. >> There is another side. >> to quitting a big prestigious. well-paying job at a law firm on. principal. >> Yes. In the year 2025, you'll end up all right. And. specifically speaking to the lawyers, not everyone in America can safely speak. their mind right now. Mhm. But lawyers. can obviously you may be targeted and. but the law firms that fought back and.

are winning in courts are doing fine. financially. You know they're not. they're not going underwater. and. this I think existential fear was. completely overblown. >> It was overstated. >> I think. So it was a excuse. I think it. was putting profits over an oath that. lawyers swear. >> to protect the constitution. >> And you know, if someone like me ends up. fine, more than fine, then the executive.

partners and chairpersons of these law. firms. >> who make many millions more, >> right, would [snorts] have been. completely fine, too. And [music]. regardless, I think the oaths have to mean. something. [music]. >> Thank you [music] once again for your. time and your cander. >> The the pleasure and the privilege is.

all mine. I really just want to say. thank [music] you because you were a. huge part of what happened to me a few. months ago. You changed my life. Oh, well, [music] you changed your own. life. We just chronicled it. [music]. Today's [music] Daily was produced by. Olivia Nat, Shannon Lynn, and Mooj.

Zadei. It was edited by Patricia. Willins, Jodie [music] Becker, and. Michael Benois. contains music by Dan Powell and Marian. Lozano and was engineered by Alyssa. [music] Moxley, Rowan Nisto, and Chris. Wood. Special thanks to Jessica Silver. Greenberg. That's it [music] for the daily. I'm. Michael Borrow. See you tomorrow.