Who Moves Up, and Who's Pushed Out, in Pete Hegseth's Military

From the New York Times, I'm Michael. Bubaro. This [music] is the Daily. [music]. For the past 18 months, Secretary. [music] of Defense Pete Hexath has. remade the top ranks of the US military, dismissing or sidelining many whose rise. he believes was aided by DEI and [music]. replacing them with officers who fit his.

definition of merit. In the [music]. process, many argue Hexath is. prioritizing loyalty to him and his. [music] ideas over loyalty to the. military itself. Today, my colleague Greg [music] Jaffy. takes us inside the hiring and firing. for a single job that's become a case. study for Hegath's [music]. approach. It's Thursday, [music] August 20th.

Greg, welcome to the Daily. I know this. is your first time on the show, so glad. to have you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Pleasure is all mine. >> So, I think it's fair to say that. Secretary of Defense Pete Hex's desire. to transform the senior ranks of the US. military is pretty well established by. now. So, why did you decide to pursue. this story? So, we knew that when Secretary Hexath.

came in and even before he came in, he. talked about wanting to remove senior. military officers, including the. chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And then in September of last year, >> good morning and welcome to the War. Department. He gives a big speech in. which he again talks about the need to. clean house to remove people who he. thinks have been inserted into the. military by ideologues and have been. manipulated into pursuing like. diversity, equity, and inclusion.

programs. >> No more identity months, DEI offices. >> So, it's a really broad campaign to sort. of reclaim a military that he thinks has. been taken over by leftist forces. And I. think he blames in some cases the losses. in Iraq and Afghanistan on the sort of. the corruption of the officer corps of. the United States military. And so he's. going to fix that problem. >> We are clearing out the debris. You might say we're ending the war on.

warriors. >> And some of that happens in 2025. >> Within his first month, he fires a large. number of people. >> Vice chief of staff were all fired. Friday night. Yeah, no specific. explanations were given. >> It's a pretty significant purge of some. of the top ranks of the military, >> right? We did a whole episode about CQ. Brown, for example, the chairman of the. Joint Chiefs of Staff who was fired in. this first wave. >> Yep. But I think we really start to see. it in 2026 where the firings are are.

continuing. Hex Seth has fired more than. a dozen generals and admirals since he. took over as secretary, including. >> and he's blocking large numbers of. people, women and people of color from. getting promotions that they had earned. at senior levels. >> And so Kate Kelly and I who had been. working on this, we'd found upwards of. 65 to 70 people who had been either. fired or blocked from promotions that. they had earned. That's about 10% of the.

entire general officer corps, which is, you know, admirals in general. >> Huge. >> Yep. Yep. But in reality, it's probably. higher. >> So, this is about as wide-ranging a. house cleaning as one can imagine. >> Yeah. I've been covering the military. since 1999 off and on, and I cannot. think of anything remotely close to this. in the last 26 years. And given all. that, we wanted to understand both what. it took to fall out of favor with. Secretary Hexath, but also to understand.

what it took to get hired in this. Pentagon. >> And that's what led us to the story of. Lisa Franketti and Daryl Codle, hoping. it would help us understand in a broad. sense how Secretary Hugs was really. changing the military in ways that were. really transformative. So let's start. with what you found about Lisa. Franketti, the member of that duo who. was fired by Hexath. What did you find. out about her?

>> So Admiral Franketti has told her story. in lots of interviews about how she grew. up in Rochester, New York, and she went. to Northwestern University, [music]. which is not the normal path necessarily. for naval officers. >> I was 17. I was going to Medil. Yeah. The most amazing journalism school in. the country. And I was going to be a. reporter. >> She was a coxin on the rowing team. And. so her job was to command the men rowing. their boat. >> Oh my god. >> So I learned a lot about leadership. You. know, you have all these incredibly. powerful individual athletes, but you.

need to get them to become part of the. team. [music]. >> You know, I think that was about the. extent of her naval experience prior to. that. But what happened is I was. >> But one day she met a group of guys on. campus who had decided to join the Navy. to help pay for school. >> And I said, "Really? Tell me more." And. [music] they talked about free. textbooks, a chance to see the world. >> And a recruiter, soldier on the. adventure of the armed forces. >> And he told me all kinds of amazing. stories, sea stories as I now know them, about the Navy. And uh I signed up on.

the spot. >> Wow. So. >> that's a story of actually of a lot of. people who join the service who don't. have an intimate familiarity with it but. are looking for some way to get ahead in. their life, some benefit um and some. sense of adventure. >> But I stayed for the mission. >> Yeah. [music]. >> And just a chance to serve something. greater than myself. >> I want to pull a thread out of that. >> And what is her experience once she. joins the Navy? when she joins. It's the. 1980s and so there's still at that point.

something called the combat exclusion. ban that's in place and that prevents. women from serving on combat ships or. serving in combat aircraft and really. limits the opportunity of women to. ascend to high ranks in the service. >> Wow. So when she arrives at the Navy, women, they can't even be on the ships. that we most identify with the Navy. itself, which to me sounds a little bit. like being drafted to play professional. basketball and being told that you can. never go on the court. It's a pretty big.

deal. >> Yeah. And there's an interesting moment. So I think in 1989, she's one of 184. female surface warfare officers in the. entire United States Navy. And one of. those officers was chosen to command an. auxiliary logistics ship. So this is a. >> not a combat not a combat ship. >> Right. Exactly. And it's such a big. event that the chief of naval. operations, the job that Franki will. someday hold, writes a letter to all 184. female officers saying, "I look forward.

to the day soon when this will cease to. be a special event." Hm. >> And so she's at a moment where things. are just beginning to open up for women. in the United States Navy. >> And it sounds like at pretty senior. levels of the military, leaders want it. to keep opening up from the content of. that letter. >> Yeah. Yeah. But that view isn't. universally held. And it certainly. wasn't universally held in the 1980s. >> The boss that I had at the time, he made. it very clear to me that he didn't think.

women should be on our ship. and uh he. was going to make sure that I did not. succeed. And. >> Frank Ketty says she's basically told by. her commanding officer that this. experiment of having women on ships is. not going to go anywhere. >> How did you deal with it being. discriminated against knowing that a. boss didn't want you to succeed? >> I just worked harder and you know I was. going to make sure that what he wanted. to have happen wasn't going to happen. [music]. >> That attitude fuels her. It makes her.

work harder. And in the '9s, Clinton. lifts the combat exclusion ban. And that. allows women to serve on combat vessels. and in combat aircraft. And it really. opens up possibilities for somebody like. Admiral Franketti who then seizes that. opportunity and rises up through the. Navy. >> You were a destroyer captain as was I. You were commander of destroyer squadron. 21. The. >> lions lions. You were the lion queen. She commands an Arley Burke [music].

class destroyer, the USS Ross. Later, two aircraft carrier strike. groups. [music] You know, the aircraft. carrier is really central to the way the. United States Navy fights. >> And so, in 2013, she's the first woman. to actually command naval forces in. Korea, which is a real hot spot at that. moment. And she also is a senior officer. on the joint staff [music] in the. Pentagon. So, in a relatively short amount of.

time, Franketti goes from not being. allowed onto combat ships to commanding. those same ships. And I imagine by this. point, the word is out that she may be. boss boss material. >> Yeah. And in 2023, she's officially put. up for the job, the top job in the Navy. you know, the Navy Secretary selects. three or four people who he thinks would. be good for that job and submits that.

list to the Secretary of Defense, who at. the time was a guy named Lloyd Austin. And after that list is put together, she's sort of widely rumored inside the. Pentagon to be the front runner. >> Mhm. >> But Austin looks at the list and he. picks somebody else, a guy named Sam. Paparro, who was a senior Navy officer. in the Pacific. That's Austin's first. choice. And when it goes to the White. House, it's leaked to the press and. there are stories in the media saying in. a surprise move, it looks like they're. going to nominate Paparo rather than.

Admiral Franki for the job. >> Okay, so she has not gotten this job. >> She doesn't look like she's gotten this. job. But then it lands in the White. House under President Biden. He looks at. the list of candidates and he thinks, you know what? I want Frank Ketty for. the job of chief of naval operations and. let's keep PPRO in the job and have him. be the head of US Indo-Pacific command. China is really important to the. Pentagon and Paparro has spent more time.

in Asia than almost any senior officer. and so let's keep him focused on our. most difficult problem when it comes to. actual warfare. So, just to be clear, President Biden overrules his secretary. of defense Lloyd Austin and says, "I. know you like this fella for the job of. chief naval operations, but I prefer. Lisa Franketti, and I make the final. decision here.". >> Yeah. And it's not unheard of, but it is. unusual. >> Ultimately, this is the president's.

pick, and the president chose to. exercise that authority that he has. And. >> and and why did he pick her? you know, one, she had a lot of experience. As I. said before, she was considered the. front runner for the job. So, it wasn't. like he was reaching deep into the ranks. and picking an unknown. And two, I do. think that Biden was interested in. making history, interested in sending a. message that a woman could rise to the. top of the force. And so, picking the. first female chief of naval operations,

the first woman to serve on the Joint. Chiefs of Staff, that was a really big. deal for Biden. But even as she's being. confirmed, you know, there's a bit of a. backlash to it on the hill. >> The committee meets today to consider. the nomination of Admiral Lisa Franketti. to be the next chief of naval. operations. >> At her confirmation hearing, she is. pressed, as are many officers who are. coming up for confirmation at this. period, about what she feels about DEI, what she feels about some of the books.

that are touting the importance of DEI, whether it has a place in the United. States Navy. So again, I'm uh very. focused on on war fighting. Yeah. >> War fighters and winning. >> And she largely says that's not what. she's about. >> I will develop a process and I will. focus on war fighting, war fighters and. winning. >> Thank you. >> She's about the Navy and she's about. naval operations and naval warfare and. that's her focus, not diversity. >> With that, I will adjourn a hearing.

But knowing what I know about Pete. Hexath and what's coming around the. corner, I'm guessing that all of this, including how she was chosen by Biden, is at the heart of her eventual demise. >> Yeah. So, she's confirmed by the Senate. with only one dissenting vote. I think. it's 95 to1. >> with some people not voting because they. weren't there. So, she's got. overwhelming support from the Senate. Republican to Democrats think she's. qualified. But Pete Hexath is clearly.

bothered by this. >> And that's why this book is going to. tick a lot of people off. Women and men. are different. Women shouldn't be in. combat at all. >> And so he publishes a book in 2024 in. which he really takes aim at her among. others, but her on a couple of pages in. which he says and argues that she's not. qualified for this job and she only got. the job because she was a woman. >> Because of how Washington works, they're. going to change the standards. They're. going to push for quotas. and he. identifies Admiral Franketti as. emblematic of everything that was wrong.

with the Biden approach as somebody who. prioritizes diversity over competence. >> Any general that was involved, General. Admiral, whatever that was involved in. any of the DEI woke it's got to. go. >> And at that point, Hexath is a Fox and. Friends weekend host and a military. expert for Fox. And so within a matter. of months after this book comes out, HGth is picked by uh President-elect. Trump at that moment to be his secretary. of defense. It's a really controversial. pick. >> Hexath is not very experienced. And when.

Hexath is chosen by Trump, Franketti has. read his book or is aware of what's in. his book and she realizes that her days. are probably numbered. >> And what does she do? >> Well, at that point, she calls together. all the four stars in the United States. Navy. I think there are a half dozen of. them or so to the Pentagon and they. discuss what to do if she's fired, who. should replace her. And I think she's. also really concerned about the. politicization of the force that these. forces will sort of divide the Navy,

divide admirals against each other, will. lead to people campaigning for the job. and freelancing. And so she basically. says to them like, "Hey, this is a. really big stressful moment. We need to. put the United States Navy ahead of. ourselves and our own career ambitions. >> So even at this moment when she knows. her career is probably over, she's. saying, "How do we protect the Navy?". >> Yeah. How do we protect the institution? [music].

But what she doesn't know at the time. [music] is that someone in the that. four-star meeting that she had is. quietly doing exactly what she [music]. cautioned not to do, which is reaching. out to Secretary Haggath and trying to. position himself to take her job. [music]. [music]. We'll be right back.

So, Greg, tell us about this naval. officer who does the very thing. Franketti doesn't want anyone to do, which is to basically begin lobbying for. her job even before she's been fired. You mentioned his name earlier, Daryl. Codddle. >> Yeah. So, he's a highly accomplished and. decorated admiral. My early Navy days. were on board submarines.

>> Comes up through the submarine fleet. He. commands US submarines in the Pacific. >> You're surrounded by a nuclear reactor. and enough ordinance to make anyone a. little nervous. >> Then he's in charge of US fleet forces. command, which is a really important. East Coast Command that essentially. trains and makes sure Navy ships are. ready to go to war. >> Down there, I had to constantly ask. myself, am I thinking clearly? Am I. thinking strategically? Are we doing the. right things for the right reasons and. at the right time? And those questions.

haven't changed. He. >> does very well on that. So well, in. fact, that you know when they're. considering Admiral Franketti in 2023. that Admiral Codle is one of the people. on the list the Navy puts forward to. Secretary Austin as a possible candidate. for the Chief of Naval Operations job. >> Ah, interesting. So he's in the mix for. that big a job under President Biden. >> Yeah. And he really wants it. It's clear. that he really wants it, but the Navy, I. think, views him as a better candidate.

for US Strategic Command, which is the. command that oversees all of our nuclear. weapons. It's a really important. command. It's not as high-profile. The. span of control, the span of what you. can accomplish is not as great. And so, I think Admiral Cuddle is much more. interested in the chief of naval. operations job, that much more. high-profile job. H and it sounds like. when he recognizes that Franketti is. probably in trouble in the same way that. she herself recognizes that he begins to. make clear he wants the job. How does he.

do that? >> Yeah. So it's really interesting and and. this is something that I had never. encountered before. So you know Hexath. is nominated for the job. It's not clear. that he's going to get the job. It's. looking pretty dicey for him. And so. what we heard from several officials. familiar with the interaction is that at. this point Admiral Coddle directs a. senior officer on his staff to reach out. to Hegsth to help Hegsth prepare for his. confirmation hearing. He makes this.

offer several times over the course of. the month of December. The call never. happens, but the message gets through to. Secretary Hicks that this is somebody. who's kind of on the team. >> Interesting. and perhaps a little bit. bold for the military. What else do we. learn about Codle's communications with. Hexath? >> So, two days after Admiral Franketti is. fired, a senior officer on his staff. again reaches out to Hex's brother. This.

time of a much more overtly political. message, essentially that there's no one. more in line with Secretary Hex's vision. for remaking the military than Admiral. Codle. and that Admiral Cotto wants to. remove quote woke barriers that he sees. as weakening the force. And it seems. like the point of this text message was. to show, hey, I'm politically and. ideologically aligned with you and your. vision for the military. >> Huh. I mean, this sounds quite literally.

like what Franketti would be asking that. no one ever do, which is not just. reaching out and lobbying for a job, which it sounds like she would. disapprove of, but saying, "I'm with you. ideologically. I'm your person. I will. be loyal." That sounds quite out of. protocol, out of the norm. >> Yeah, it was very much a violation of. protocol. This is really unusual because. we expect our military officers to be. apolitical. We don't want Republican. generals and Democratic generals. We.

want them to serve the institution and. the country. And so when you have people. shortcircuiting the process and. auditioning for jobs, it really starts. to undermine trust in the institution. And I think not just Admiral Franketti. would have objected to that, but I think. most of the chiefs of any of the. services would have had a problem with. that kind of outreach. M. >> you know there's a concept in the Navy a. saying it goes ship shipmate self. >> and at the core of that is that the. survival and success of your ship comes.

first. The next is your sailors your. shipmates the people who you serve with. and you put yourself last. And when you. politicize the force, when you put. ideology or ambition ahead of those. things, you really start to break down. the bonds that make for an effective. fighting force, the bonds that make. people willing to sacrifice their lives. for something bigger. >> H and what comes of Codle's outreach?

>> Well, the first thing that happens is. Hegsth fires Franketti. And remember, at. this time, he's only about a month into. the job, so he's still pretty new. He. gets a list of three nominees of people. who the Navy thinks should get this job. Admiral Cuddle is not on that list. And. so. >> interesting, >> there's a meeting in the Pentagon in. which Hegsath is briefed on the sort of. the three options that the Navy is. recommending and he looks at that list. and says, "Where's Codle?" H potentially.

or even probably because he's. remembering all these texts and emails. that are coming through from this very. senior Navy guy saying, "I'm your guy. and I'm with you.". >> Yes. And it turns out that Admiral. Coddle is the only person uh that. Secretary Hexath interviews for the. Chief of Naval Operations job. >> And so he picks him. His nomination is. set to go to the White House when a. problem arises, >> which is what? So, Admiral Cuddle has a. significant inspector general complaint.

against him. It's essentially a year. old, but it's been sitting in the system. and it needs to be dealt with. >> This is when you say Inspector General, you basically mean like the kind of. internal HR world of the Navy. It sounds. like. >> the IG is the internal watchdog. So what. happens is the complaint centers around. some remarks he made to sailors at. essentially an awards banquet and. they're talking about the Navy's sexual. assault awareness program and Codle says.

look if I strip naked and cover myself. in honey and go walking through the. forest and I get attacked by a bear I. have some responsibility for that. attack. Another one that he uses is, you. know, if I put on gold chains and a. fancy gold watch and I go walking. through Harlem and I get assaulted, you. know, I bear some responsibility for my. decisions. >> Mhm. >> So eventually some of the sailors who. hear these remarks complain to the IG.

Greg, I'm thinking back to the email. that Codle wrote to Hegsth where he. says, "I'm with you on being anti-woke. and changing the culture of the. military." And it sounds like with these. kinds of comments, he's definitely not. on board with the progressive. culture that has arrived in places like. the US military that would say that. comments like that are not appropriate. >> I think that's right. Yeah. And so when.

Admiral Cuddle has to deal with this, he. reaches out to a lawyer named Tim. Parloratory. Parliatory has represented. other naval officers dealing with these. IG complaints. He also represented uh. Secretary Hegsth when Secretary Hegsth. was accused of sexual assault a few. years ago. Now he's working as a special. adviser inside the Pentagon. >> Wow. So Codle's connections to HGth keep. getting bigger and more complicated. So. at this point, where does Codle's. nomination stand? Where does it go?

>> So the IG concludes that he didn't do. anything wrong and then that clears the. pathway for Admiral Codle's nomination. to go to the White House. >> Good morning everyone. This ceremony. marks an important transition for our. Navy. So last summer, summer of 2025, he. succeeds Admiral Franketti and becomes. the new chief of naval operations. >> with the promise to work every day to. make our sailors better warriors, our. families more supported, and our. >> and in his speech, he brings up this.

idea of sailors first and serving with. integrity. >> Sailors are my priority. I pledge to. lead with integrity, honor, and resolve. And he also parrots Hegsth's language of. domination and strength. >> to ensure that our Navy remains and. forever will be the most dominant, lethal, and credible maritime fighting. force the world has ever known. Now, let's get to work. Thank you, [applause]. >> Greg. Help make sense of this firing and.

this hiring. We start with Lisa. Franketti who President Biden picks I. think pretty self-consciously because he. wants to have a woman in that role. Hexath comes along and says that's not. how I'm going to be doing business so. fires her and picks Codle. It seems in. large part because Codle shares Hexas. ideology and has found multiple ways to.

communicate that. So, how should we be. thinking about all of that together? >> Yeah, I should note that spokesman for. both Secretary Hegsathth and Admiral. Codle have said that these decisions. were made on merit, but it seems pretty. clear that the firings were not about. merit. >> You know, it's completely legitimate to. fire somebody for competence if they. make a mistake or lose a war. But. Franketti did nothing wrong as far as we. can tell. She was fired and Codle was. hired at least in part for reasons tied.

to politics or ideology. And that's a. really dangerous place for the military. to go. And dangerous exactly why? Cuz I. guess there must be plenty of people who. imagine that other senior military. officials have found ways to ingratiate. themselves with military leaders and to. communicate that, you know, I'm your. person. Why does what happened here seem. so problematic? Well, I think when you. start firing people for political. reasons, it's not just the person you.

fire, but it's the message that sends. throughout the entire force that, hey, if you want to move up, if you want to. succeed, there are political litmus. tests or political gates that you have. to pass through. And then you start. making dayto-day decisions, maybe even. really important military ones based on, will this make the boss happy? Because. that's kind of how I got my job in the. first place. Yeah, war is a really. tough, complicated endeavor as we're. seeing in Iran right now. And so, you. want your best war fighters, not your.

most politically aligned war fighters, to be promoted. You want people to be. able to tell the boss when they're. wrong. >> You want senior officers to provide. unvarnished military advice even when it. may not be popular or what the civilians. want to hear. Now, have other. administrations initially distrusted the. generals they inherited from past. presidents? Yes, that has happened. But. they never took steps to fire and. replace them with more ideologically.

aligned officers because they knew it. was a really slippery slope. >> It it could lead to places that weren't. good for the military or for the. country. >> I just want to end by spending a moment. on the other side of this tale. the. person we started this episode with and. that is Lisa Franketti. and the demography of the military. because the reason why all the changes. were made to let her rise up through the.

ranks and the reason why ultimately it. seems President Biden put so much. emphasis on having her be in that role. is there was a desire to have women. leading and lead branches of the. military. What is the status under. Hegsth who is clearly not sharing that. priority of women in the leadership of. the military? Yeah. So this time for the. first time in at least a decade if not. longer there will be no women nominated. to admiral rank. [music].

Women make up about 21% of the Navy. And. so that means you've got a leadership of. the Navy [music] that increasingly looks. less and less like the force that it. oversees. I [music] think, you know, it also means. that young female officers who are. coming up have fewer people who provide. a sort of a pathway to success who show. them what the opportunities available to. them are. I think that's tough for them.

I think it's also heartbreaking for. [music] people like Admiral Frank Ketti. and other senior female officers who. fought hard to get where they got. [music]. >> Well, Greg, thank you very much. Appreciate it. >> Of course. Thanks for having me. [music]. We'll be right back.

Here's what else you need to know today. For the first time in US history, the. gross national debt surpassed $40. trillion, an ominous milestone in the. [music] country's inability to balance. its checkbook. The US massively. outspends what it earns to pay for its. military safety [music] net programs. like Medicare and Social Security and.

for tax cuts like those passed by. President Trump. Trump has repeatedly. promised to restore financial order. But. since his first election [music] back in. 2016, the national debt has doubled. And. this year alone, the United [music]. States is already on track to borrow $2. trillion. Today's [music] episode was produced by. Shannon Lynn, Adrien Hurst, and Jessica.

Chung. It was edited by Michael Benois. and Patricia Willis and contains music. by Alicia Etup [music] and Dan Powell. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This. episode was engineered by Chris Wood. [music].

That's it for the daily. I'm Michael. Bubaro. See you tomorrow.