When the President Pardons His Son

from The New York Times I'm Michael. babbaro this is the. [Music]. daily today why President Biden went. back on his word to Pardon his own son. and where that decision leaves the US. system of justice chief White House. correspondent Peter Baker is Our Guest. [Applause].

it's Tuesday December. [Music]. 3rd Peter we are reaching you in of all. places Angola where you are traveling. with President Biden it's pretty late. there for you yeah exactly yes see Air. Force One just landed here in lwanda the. capital and he got off the plane for the. start of a couple day visit here didn't. talk with the reporters on the plane or.

those on the ground about anything going. on back home but obviously that's top of. mind for a lot of people right it seems. impossible to imagine that the subject. of what he did before he left for Angola. is not very much chasing him there yeah. exactly I think it's one of these. foreign trips that will be shattered Now. by a domestic issue that he uh dealt. with literally just hours before getting. on the plane his decision to Pardon his. son Hunter Biden well Peter I wonder if. you can just describe your reaction to.

that announcement because I think for a. lot of us for me at least it was a real. Double Take moment like I'm sorry what. what just happened and I wonder what. your reaction was as a close student of. Joe Biden's for decades as chief White. House reporter and as a really. historically minded kind of thinker. about the presidency well it's a big. deal for a president to use his power of. clemency to to protect his own son from.

The Justice System right this is. something that hasn't happened before. there have been a couple occasions where. presidents used the power of the pardon. or commutation to help people who are. close to them even members of the family. Bill Clinton pardoned his brother Roger. who had had old drug charges and. president Donald Trump pardoned Jared. kushner's father from old tax evasion. charges but this is the first time we've. seen a president use the power for his. own son and to head off any punishment.

for that member of the family there both. the previous examples came after their. sentences had been served and were. basically meant as statements of. forgiveness not preventing. accountability in this case President. Biden is actually interceding before his. son is even sentenced saying no way I'm. letting him go to prison and so in that. moment with the stroke of a pen he has. done something extraordinary by upending.

the judicial system that he has spent. his career and particularly the last. four years defending and the pardon of. his son now gives ammunition to. Republicans including Trump to say that. the justice system doesn't work it is. politicized why did they say that. because now Joe Biden has said that and. I think that's a big big moment for Joe. Biden's Legacy we're going to return. Peter to the implications of all of this. the meaning of it and how it's going to.

fit into Biden's Legacy but I wonder if. we can start with how Biden got to this. place because pardoning his son Hunter. fully and unconditionally is something. that Biden said. repeatedly that he would never ever do. and I want to talk with you about why he. said he would never do it and what. you've come to understand about why. Biden ultimately changed his mind right. exactly well Biden of course campaigns.

for office and comes to office after the. 2020 election by accusing president. Trump of politicizing the justice. department of making decisions about law. enforcement subject to his political. will going after his enemies and. favoring his friends and he said he. wasn't going to do that he was going to. restore the system of justice but when. he comes to office he understands that. his own son is already being. investigated by a us attorney in. Delaware on a number of possible issues.

and that us attorney has been made into. a special Council which is meant to. insulate that prosecution from politics. and Biden makes a decision from the. beginning he's going to keep that. special counsel or at least not going to. do anything to stop that special counsel. from continuing and then meric Garland. his attorney general makes the decision. to keep that same special counsel in. place to demonstrate that they're not. trying to influence this in any way that. the special prosecutor should have the. right to pursue the facts as he chooses. so Biden was taking a hands off approach.

that's what he said he was going to take. a hands off approach right and in that. sense he's really putting his money. where his mouth was during this period. because he's saying to the world you. know you certainly could understand why. I might want to intercede on behalf of. my son but I refuse on principle exactly. he makes a point of principle he makes. it a point of contrast with his. predecessor and now successor Donald. Trump and he uses this in fact to make. the case that the justice department is. in fact neutral and making politics free. decisions when they go after TR because.

his point is hey the justice department. that is Prosecuting Trump is also. Prosecuting my son and I'm not having. anything to do with either one of those. things this is just based on facts and. law that was the argument he was making. right because to cast out on one of. those investigations was to potentially. cast out on all of them which is why. he's going to withhold judgment steer. clear of all this stuff exactly right. but parallel to all this of course is a. separate track which is a partisan. investigation by the House Republicans.

who are going after Hunter on all kinds. of sometimes unproven theories about all. different ways he might have abused his. father's influence to make money and so. you have these two tracks going on one. the professional prosecutors who end up. charging Hunter Biden with gun charges. and tax charges and then the parallel. house Republican investigation which is. seen certainly in the white house as. just an effort to damage the president.

but eventually the official legal. proceedings intensify and Hunter Biden. is charged and brought to trial and he's. found guilty by a jury of his peers of. lying on a Firearms application form and. then in a separate trial he pleads. guilty to tax evasion and these are real. charges not bought by members of. Congress but by professional prosecutors. with judges and in one case a jury that. makes finding and so Hunter faces a.

sentence that could last up to 25 years. in one case though as a first-time. offender he would likely expect a. shorter sentence possibly even just. parole as we sit here in Normandy uh. your son Hunter is on trial and I know. that you cannot speak about we reporters. are asking President Biden the obvious. question will you accept the jury's. outcome their verdict no matter what it. is yes and have you ruled out a pardon. for your son yes you have are you going.

to Pardon your son and he tells us no. second one would the president pardon or. commute his son uh if he's convicted so. I've answered this question before it. was asked of me not too long and his. press secretary K je Pier says it again. and again we've been asked that question. multiple times our answer stands which. is no that question's been answered our. answer is still the same no he will not. intervene it's still a no it will be a. no it is a no and I don't have anything. else to add will he pardon his son no. right and they don't leave we should say.

any wiggle room whatsoever they don't. say well he's thinking about it and. we'll get back to you they emphatically. say he's not going to do this and he's. not going to do this because it protrays. his stated values and his expectations. about how the system should work and the. role that politics should or shouldn't. play in the justice system exactly in. fact President Biden at one point even. said.

that he accepts the outcome of the first. trial in which his son is convicted and. he respects the ducial process which is. a way of signaling To The World At Large. and specifically in contrast to Donald. Trump that he believes in the system he. will not get involved himself he will. not Abend what has been done there on. behalf of his own family but obviously. that's not the end of the story and this. is the part where I would normally ask. you what changed specifically but I. think we can Inuit it that a big thing.

that changed was that Donald Trump won. the presidency is that ultimately what. seems to tip the scales here from the. emphatic nose and the principled. position of I will not muddy this system. to I'm gonna pardon my. son yeah I think obviously the only. thing that's changed between June when. he begins saying that and today December. when he gives this pardon is the. election and you can look at it a couple. different ways you can look at it in the. way of him not being honest in the.

summer that he really was in fact. considering this but didn't want to say. before an election because it would be. politically damaging and only after the. election does he admit that in fact he. is going to use his extraordinary power. for his son or and this may be an Andor. you can also look at it as waking up to. the reality of a trump run justice. department in which this new president. is promising retribution and. specifically to go after Hunter Biden. and a president who's on the way out. thinking I'm not going to let that.

happen I'm not only going to Pardon him. for this tax and gun charges I'm going. to protect him from the next guy who's. making very clear he's going to use the. FBI for Retribution and why would he. think that well he only has only to look. at who Trump has been naming to run the. nation's law enforcement agencies Pam. Bondi a former Florida attorney general. he will nominate for attorney general. and cash Patel a former Aid to him will. be if confirmed by the Senate the FBI.

director both of them are known as. sharply partisan Warriors who have. subscribe to Trump's conspiracy theories. his election lies and his taste for. Retribution against his enemies and so. you can tell Biden is protecting his son. from Trump by the way he words it in the. pardon the pardon just say well we'll. talk about that talk about talk about. the way the pardon is articulated the. ground it covers and what that reveals. the pardon is rather extraordinary.

because it doesn't just say that we. absolve Hunter Biden of the convictions. for which he has already been found but. we absolve him of any crimes he may have. committed on any kind of topic for 10. years starting in 2014 until. 2024 we haven't seen a a pardon like. that as sweeping as that in decades. probably not since Watergate and what it. says is in effect that no matter what. Trump and his rep repan allies may come.

up with about Hunter they can't. prosecute him for that and it's really a. way of insulating Hunter not just from. the convictions he's already facing but. from any future investigation by and. what Biden would believe to be a. politicized trump Administration justice. department right it's like a flashing. red light that says don't even bother to. investigate Hunter Biden because this. pardon means that the places you would. look and the charges you might bring I.

have just made it impossible for you to. charge him for anything during that. period absolutely it's a 10 year get out. of jail free card right anything he. might have done wrong including all the. different suspicious things that. Republicans think that they have been. looking into about trading influence. with businesses and so forth none of. that is prosecutable anymore well what. if anything does Biden say about his. reasoning for why he issued such a. sweeping pardon on the one hand he says.

understandably that this is the act of a. father right he says I hope Americans. will understand why a father and a. present would come to this decision. those are his words and he's referring. to the struggles that his son has had. with addiction over the years and that. in his view drug and alcohol addiction. is really behind the crimes for which he. was convicted the lying on the Firearms. form and the tax evasion were all a. symptom of this larger struggle that he. has now in theory overcome if you have. left at that might be one thing I think.

a lot of people would have understood. that even if they didn't think it was. the right thing to do but instead he. adds to that a very blistering attack on. the prosecution against his son he says. that his son would never have been. brought for felony charges if it hadn't. been for his last name that he's being. singled out he says in fact in the. statement he puts out with the pardon. that no reasonable person who looks at. the facts of Hunter's cases can reach. any other conclusion than Hunter with. single Ked out only because he is my son.

and this is not to your earlier point a. blistering attack just on partisan. Republican Congressional investigations. into his son this is a pretty blistering. attack really on his own Department of. Justice and the lawyers and prosecutors. within it who brought cases against his. son right he doesn't explicitly say the. justice department is bad the same way. Trump does all the time but he does say.

that raw politics that's his phrase raw. politics has infected this process and. it led to a miscarriage of Justice his. words how is it affected it he doesn't. exactly say but obviously who would it. affect would be his own justice. department that he's saying that his own. justice department through the special. counsel which does have some insulation. from politics in theory has in fact been. influenced by the Republicans who have. been out there banging the drums about. Hunter Biden and been tougher on his son. in effect because of that.

and what really struck me in reading. this statement was how much it sounded. like another president Donald Trump. who's been saying a lot of the same. things about a broken justice department. infected by. politics and now suddenly that gives a. whole new complexion to this debate. about the role of Justice in American. society. [Music].

we'll be right. [Music]. back Peter in reflecting on what you. said just before the break it feels like. what Biden is asking the country to do. with this pardon is to accept the idea.

that the justice system made serious. mistakes and was politicized in this one. case involving its pursuit of his son. but that we shouldn't apply that same. thinking to other cases that this. justice department has taken up. including and perhaps above all those. brought against Trump right exactly and. that's the kind of situational judgment. that is of course problematic because.

either the justice system is something. you have faith in or it's a corrupted. department at this point and Trump and. his allies very quickly seized on this. pardon to say see we were right even. Biden now says that the justice. department can be infected by politics. can be used as a weapon against somebody. and it's been used against our guy. Donald Trump in these other cases which. are far far more serious by the way than.

anything Hunter Biden's been accused of. but that distinction gets lost right it. ends up becoming a false equivalence but. one that's very useful politically right. and that's the risk that Biden I think. quite consciously understood he was. taking here that he was going to be to. some degree undermining people's faith. in the system but if you're Biden there. is kind of a reality right Peter that. Trump and his appointees and his whole. approach to the justice department does. present a unique threat to Hunter Biden.

and that I don't think many people doubt. that Trump wanted to go after Hunter. Biden said so and if we've learned. anything about Trump it's to believe him. when he says he's going to do something. so if you're Biden and you want to. protect your son is there a reality that. you have to begin to operate on Trump's. terms and that's really what happened. here yeah I think that's a good way of. putting it he is operating in some ways. on Trump's terms he doesn't actually say.

that in the statement which is. interesting right he talks about the. current prosecutions that his son has. faced being unfair and selective he. doesn't say the other part which you. just rightly focused on which is that he. is guarding against politicization of. the justice department by his successor. right he could have framed it that way. but he didn't but the net effect of what. he did by making it a 10-year sweeping. pardon for any and everything that his. son might have done does have that. effect and it does tell what was. probably going through his mind when he.

decided to issue the pardon and that. makes me wonder do you think that. President Biden and this is a difficult. question I'll just preface it by saying. that would have issued this pardon if. Trump had lost and his vice president. comma Harris had won the election. because that would have meant there was. a much lower level of threat to Hunter. Biden under a comma Harris Department of. Justice yeah that's an excellent. question and one that we didn't get an. answer to when we asked the White House. but you're right to ask it because it.

does make you wonder how much of this is. about saving him from the possible. prison terms he might have under the. guilty verdicts he already has versus. looking ahead at what's in store and it. is possible that had the Democrats won. whether it been him when he was running. or Harris when she was running that he. wouldn't have felt compelled to do this. but we won't know and he hasn't said mhm. Peter you mentioned how Trump and his. Republican allies are responding to this. but I'm curious about how Democratic.

elected officials and operatives are. feeling about this decision because you. could see a world where some of them. might welcome it they might cheer it and. say finally President Biden and. Democrats you are living in the kind of. hand toand combat world of Donald Trump. you're meeting him where he is to use. the phrase we just did a couple of. minutes ago you're meeting him on his. terms you could just as easily however.

see Democrats say President Biden you. just stooped to Trump's level you. betrayed what you said you stood for and. you've tarnished our entire political. brand in the process all to protect your. son well and Democrats being Democrats. they're saying both those things right. there are a number of Democrats out. there who were saying look you know the. president is right his son was targeted. because he was his son that there's no. way way he would have gotten such harsh.

treatment had his name been Hunter Smith. instead of Hunter Biden you hear that. most promly for instance from Eric. Holder former Attorney General under. President Obama and there's some truth. to that according to experts we have. interviewed in the past saying that you. know that a lot of these cases like. Hunter Biden's wouldn't have gone as far. as his did on the other hand it's also. worth pointing out that when Biden says. his son is being prosecuted for his last. name he didn't have a complaints when. his son was profiting in business using.

his last name right did all these. companies give him millions of dollars. because his name was Hunter Biden not. Hunter Smith so you know being the son. of a president has its benefits and its. drawbacks and in this case obviously you. can argue that had both of those things. but there are other Democrats as you. rightly point out who are upset about. this who say no this is not a good thing. while it's totally understandable what a. father might want to do it undercuts the. independence of the justice system and. it undercuts the debate against Trump's. Corruption of it I talked to Senator.

Michael Bennett a Democrat from Colorado. says totally understands what a father. must feel like in this he said but it's. and he quotes here another instance of. putting his personal interest ahead of. his responsibility to the country H and. when Senator Bennett says another. instance is he referring to the first. instance being Biden staying in the race. for president too long exactly this. pardon comes at a moment when Democrats. are already pretty upset at Biden over.

the election result blaming him more. than KLA Harris for losing to Donald. Trump believing that he put the. Democrats in this position because he. decided to run for re-election even. though everyone knew he was going to be. 86 by the end of his second term and. therefore would be problematic and that. he himself knew that his own approval. ratings were pretty low and didn't give. it next Generation a chance in a primary. fashion to come up with a candidate. whether it be Comm har or somebody else. who would be tested and a proven.

commodity by the time it came to a. general election against Donald Trump so. there's a lot of consternation about. President Biden among Democrats this has. stirred it even further Peter it strikes. me that the decision Biden made to stay. in the presidential race as long as he. did what Michael Bennett just referred. to and this decision to Pardon his son. hunter that they have some similarities. because in both cases it feels to me. anyway Biden had to choose between a.

personal desire and a pretty big. principle the principle in the campaign. decision was should I step down for the. good of my party and the good of my. country in the decision around his son. it was do I choose my son or do I choose. the Integrity of the system that I have. defended for decades yeah no this this. is a Shakespearean quality to this story. right in both those instances look.

Presidents by definition are people with. a certain degree of hubris they believe. inevitably in their own greatness. otherwise how could you look in the. mirror and say I am the person who. should be president of this country more. than any of the other 330 million people. who live here but it's also a very human. story it is the story of a president who. had to make a decision between principle. on the one hand and and defending a. system even if you thought it had. mishandled the situation allowing your. son to go to prison and there's a sense.

of guilt there right again this is. Shakespearean he feels guilty the hunter. has been targeted he feels guilty about. all that has happened to his son over. these last few years that it isn't just. Hunter's fault because of his addiction. and because of the mistakes that led to. convictions that his life has been torn. upside down that he's been tortured in a. public setting because of him the. president and that he can make it right. only by issuing this pardon Peter I just. want to end on the very question of.

Pardons and I feel like I always return. to a feeling of bewilderment that anyone. has been endowed in our democratic. system with this singular power I had. that feeling when Trump was pardoning. Jared kushner's father I had that. question when Bill Clinton was pardoning. a relative of his if I'm being honest I. have this question now when Joe Biden is. pardoning his son. yeah it is a kingly kind of power right.

and the founders knew that when they. wrote that into the Constitution but. they also viewed it as a check on a. system that could go arai right and they. didn't necessarily Envision it being a. check on a system going AR against the. president's own family what they saw it. as was a way to correct errors in the. system against ordinary Americans who. are every day subjected to the justice. system and in some cases unfairly. treated.

and that's why there is a pardon office. in the Justice Department that sends. recommendations to the president that. has a process that tries in fact to. correct the wrongs of the system because. of course the system gets things wrong. every system does at some point or. another but what happened here with. Biden's pardon and a lot of Trump's. pardons for that matter too is that it. didn't go through any. process and that raises a lot of. questions what is justice in America who. says it's fair and not tainted how do.

you take politics out of. it and we seem to be putting more. politics into it with each passing. [Music]. day well. Peter thank you very much thanks for. having. [Music]. me we'll be right back. [Music].

here's what else you need to know a day. in a letter on Monday the outgoing. Senate Majority Leader Democrat Chuck. Schumer urged his Republican colleagues. to push for traditional confirmation. hearings and FBI LED background checks. for Donald Trump's cabinet picks the. letter comes As Trump and the around him. signal an eagerness to fill his cabinet.

through recess appointments that bypass. Senate votes and without FBI background. checks that might uncover embarrassing. facts about his. choices and the CEO of the computer chip. giant Intel has stepped down in the. latest sign of the company's troubles on. Monday's show we used Intel as a case. study of why president pres Biden's. plans to revive us manufacturing will be.

so challenging the Biden Administration. hopes to invest billions of dollars into. Intel to promote domestic manufacturing. but Intel has failed to keep up with its. Rivals and has increasingly lost the. confidence of tech companies that rely. on Advanced computer chips. [Music]. today's episode was produced by Carlos.

PRI Jessica Chung and Luke Vander plug. with help from Eric. krupy it was edited by Michael benah. with help from Paige cowt contains. original music by Mary and Lozano and. was engineered by Alyssa Moxley our. theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. lansberg of wonderlake. [Music].

that's it for the daily I'm Michael. borro see you tomorrow. [Music].