What Phil Donahue Meant to Me

from New York Times I'm Michael babbaro. this is the. [Music]. daily. today a tribute to Phil donu the king of. daytime talk from. [Music]. me it's Friday August 30th.

on the inside for clothes that TR. and at bold 3 detergent plus Fabrics. office from NBC News this is when I was. growing up there were four television. shows that I watched religiously the. Today show I love that Wayne grety and. his wife's a doll too and their children. are really cute because Matt and Katie.

were pure magic together on that. set 60 Minutes how cigarettes can. destroy people's lives because nobody. has ever told stories like that on. network TV you think that I don't trust. my husband General Hospital I do trust. my husband he loves me and we're married. and we're happy and there's nothing that. you or Miranda or anyone is ever going. to do to change that because all of us. have a guilty pleasure and finally the. Phil done D.

[Music]. show now why donu your your parents do. not know that you lead this double life. you leave the apartment after they've. gone to sleep is that right yeah uh-huh. yes good that's a good answer yes well. they I mean they have no idea or I sleep. at other people's house why was I why. were millions of other Americans drawn. to this middle-aged host of a daytime. talk show you dress up like this because. first of all it's fun and hey.

this guy with a helmet of gray hair and. what always seemed to me anyway to be. the world's longest slimmest microphone. as far as songs go every song is a. message who sprinted around his studio. in a beige 3piece suit the message of. good Night Irene this the lyrics were. Irene good Night Irene she about it. never really occurred to me to try and. answer that question Donahue has been. off the air now for more than 20 years.

he's no longer a household name the. culture has kind of Forgotten him but. then a few days ago he died at the age. of 88 and suddenly I wanted to know what. had it been about. Donahue so I logged on YouTube and I. started to watch a show again kind of. why I why should I love the Lord why. should anybody else love the Lord what. the Lord ever done for any of us first I.

don't know and I was right back in my. childhood basement with the gray. commercial carpet and the exposed pipes. and so on and if you're married you. can't have the job because you might. have children and if you have children. you can't have the job because they. might get sick and you'd have to take. care of them if you didn't she'd be a. bad mother you know I mean any condition. of being a female still may be used. against you no matter what and what I. remembered right away was donah Hugh's. extraordinary intellectual range 100.

35,000 citizens were displaced because. of the explosion in Chernobyl and some. of them lived here one day he'd. interview a presidential candidate. throughout this imperfect part of your. marriage did you ever separate you and. Hillary no and it's none of your. business if we. did the next an activist if we don't put. a halt to this new kind of nuclear war. fighting which we're moving into we are. going to guarantee that we have a. nuclear war.

the day after that a celebrity please. welcome the Divine miss m here's bet. Midler right an illiterate adult you. came out of the closet so to speak two. years ago is October 16th and no one. knew except my wife who somehow had. outwitted his college professors and his. bosses and still couldn't read at the. age of 45 despite having a big corporate. job and I might add that I am healing as. we all are healing from the trauma of. being being an illiterate in this.

dominant literate Society it must be. terrifying now remember this is daytime. talk at a time when daytime talk didn't. really exist Donahue is competing with. soap operas and game shows and his show. was the exact opposite of all of that. escapism it was the AIDS crisis to what. that we don't have to worry about. catching AIDS in the air right AIDS is. not transmitted by casual contact it. never has and it probably never will be. it was the hardcore scene New York he.

devoted an entire episode to that yeah. well share with us some of the feelings. that make you feel comfortable in this. group well people are always seeming to. try to tell us what to do where to go. how to talk how to walk what to wear and. um we're just trying to say that maybe. there's an alternative to what is set. before us and told dictated to us you. know we're saying maybe there's and it. was this incessant curiosity about ideas. and. motivations why people did what they did.

why they believed what they believed. what made people who they. [Music]. are but that doesn't quite explain why I. think so many of us were watching. Donahue it was this thing he did on top. of all of that it was how he treated his. audience now remember until this point a. studio audience was basically an. inanimate object object Mike uh you know.

about the evil presence in my office. right of course I do p she's standing. right next to. you they laughed sometimes literally on. a laugh track they clapped in unison. they were basically a prop let me go out. in the audience and get some. observations what do you think of all. this business of student protest for. example columia Berkeley and other but. in Don's hands the became just as.

important as the guest on the stage yes. ma'am I think there's racism everywhere. and you cannot pinpoint it on a. particular race but it depends on the. individual and I think that as long as. we keep calling people black and white. that's when racism is going to continue. I know you want that happen you let me. know we're not making we're not making. this and this wasn't an accident this. was quite deliberate Donahue made the. audience Central to the show from the. very beginning and he talked about how. it happened and why it happened in.

interviews welcome to speaking freely. I'm Ken Paulson it's a pleasure to. welcome Phil donu thank. you and he like to tell the story of how. the show's origins in Dayton Ohio forced. him to do it we tried to get movie stars. everybody but us had movie stars uh we. would call movie stars and they'd say uh. Dayton that's the Soapbox Derby I said. no that's akan Dayton is uh he could. never persuade bigname guests to come to. Dayton so he gravitated to issues we.

discovered that issues would keep us on. the air issues and when it came to. issues it turned out that the most. interesting perspectives were not his. and suddenly the audience is starting to. ask better questions than I was during. the commercials and I got up one day and. walked out and we realize now that if it. hadn't been for that we probably would. not have survived I just don't think you. can sell two Talking Heads in front of a. curtain for very very long now you tell.

me and so slowly but surely he started. to turn his microphone and his show over. to his audience and people's hands were. going up all and I couldn't get to him. fast enough and since this was the 1960s. and the 1970s and it was in the middle. of men's workday turning his microphone. over to the audience really meant. turning his microphone and eventually. his show over to women.

sexism was rampant at the time the. Mantra in the television game was the. only thing women care about is covered. dishes needle point and children and. mothering it's all and we came along and. it was clear that uh behind this. stereotype were thinking live human. beings who wanted to get in the ACT who. had something to say who wanted to kick. tires who wanted to get mad who were mad. at doctors for patronizing them and we. exploited all this to our own uh. advantage so in the relative obscurity.

of Dayton Ohio Donahue was undertaking a. pretty radical experiment in the history. of Television he was asking women what. they thought and he was taking their. lives and their needs very. seriously we are inside an abortion. clinic in Chicago the patient with her. back to the camera is in the first. trimester of an unwanted pregnancy he. televised an abortion our patient having.

been told what to expect walks to the. treatment room where she meets the. doctor for the first time the medical. term for this abortion is vacuum. aspiration cage he televised a tubal. liation surgery the baby on okay he. televised a child's birth she. is of course not all his gestures. towards women were super highminded. what's up ladies for those of you that. prefer Italian men one of Houston's top. models Mr GQ himself the Italian.

Stallion there were the episodes about. male strippers where these guys came out. on the set took off all their clothes. and the women went. wild and Donahue made very clear that. those pitches came from the women on his. staff not him. [Applause]. then there's this moment in an episode.

in 1979 here's a woman who's read by. millions around the world she may be our. most debated philosopher where all of. these puzzle pieces of what made Donahue. Donahue come together his curiosity his. female audience and these feminist ideas. that his show so often pred a warm human. being who has a lot to say and come. straight at everything she says I am. pleased to present a Rand Miss Rand.

it was an interview with the writer Ein. Rand so your view is if we all became. more comfortable with our natural. tendencies that is to say selfishness. there would be less horror less war less. Hitler there wouldn't be any and just. think about that for a moment Ein Rand. one of the great public intellectuals of. her era or really any ERA this champion. of rational selfishness and capitalism. Unbound on daytime. so the more selfish we are the more.

tranquil and peaceful the world in which. we live and more benevolent toward other. people if we're rationally selfish and. this moment starts as so many great. Donahue moments do with a question from. the audience um Miss Rand in your novels. you portray very strong women I was. wondering why you think in the world we. don't have strong women leaders because. if you're speaking about women's. Liberation that whole movement it's a.

very false and funny issue and Rand. responds by basically casting doubt on. the whole movement for women's rights. women are human beings so they need. leaders just like men they need leaders. who are men or women as the leaders have. earned and then Donna Hugh jumps in well. but the point is that women feel because. of the cultural Inhibitors that have.

been placed on women some sort of woman. leadership is needed to and he asks. irand how she thinks that women can get. ahead for him this avowed feminist the. answer seems pretty obvious what's. needed is a formal sustained effort to. advocate for women's equality you can do. it only by education you do it by. spreading the right idea that women. intellectually are not the inferior of. men of course physically they certainly.

are that's what feminists are doing. they're standing up and educating no but. Rand totally rejects that they asking. for government power and government. handouts they go around depriving men of. jobs because you have to have quarter of. so many. women but their point is that they have. been denied jobs all these years Don. Hugh wants to talk about systemic. barriers Rand wants to talk about hard. work what should they do be nice little. girls and not say anything and stay home.

and break bread no well what should they. do should go into any career of their. choice except long shoreman or. professional football player as they're. flying. today and fight for their career as. every man has to fight in her mind women. simply have to prove themselves one by. one and in Ran telling in any reasonable. logical free market economy talented. women will eventually just rise it will.

happen all you have to do is show your. ability and if someone is Prejudiced and. doesn't hire you the intelligent. employer will but then as the. conversation keeps going this heady. fascinating back and forth about. feminism and capitalism something really. interesting happens when another woman. in the audience asks Rand a question 15. years ago I was impressed with your. books and I sort of felt that your. philosophy was proper today however I'm. more educated and I find that if a.

company this is what I don't answer oh. wait a minute you haven't heard the. question yet and when Rand responds. she's already estimated her position and. my work incidentally displaying the. quality of her brain if she says today. she is more educated I am more educated. now than I was 15 years ago when I was. in high school before I went to college. in your biography she is exceptionally. dismissive of this woman let her make.

her point it's very basic if a company. is permitted to do what it wants to do. like it Don who tries to create some. space for this audience member to speak. but can we encourage you to make a. contribution to that observation I will. not answer anyone who is impolite but to. show you she wasn't impolite I do not. sanction impoliteness and I am not the. victim of hippies hippie man's disdain.

completely overpowers everything if. anyone else wants to ask the same. question politely I'll be delighted to. answer well there was nothing impolite. you are punishing this woman for the. Vigor and energy that she brought to the. dialogue the and that's not fair to her. this is the kind of woman we spend a. long time trying to attract to our. television. [Applause]. [Music]. audience and what I realized was that. this was a moment that could only happen.

on Donahue it was a moment that I don't. think ever would have happened if it. were just Donahue and in Rand sitting on. stage talking to one another I don't. think Rand would have been that rude to. this powerful TV host she would only act. that way toward an ordinary. person so what you get because of this. complicated ecosystem that Donna Hugh. has created is this totally unfiltered. version of this intellectual Titan and.

it's pretty ugly and while you're. watching this happen you start to wonder. what truly animates iron Rand is it this. ruthless uncompromising philosophy at. the center of her best-selling books or. is it maybe that she just doesn't like. other. people whatever was really going on here. it is revealing it is messy it is. unexpected and it is fantastic.

television and all of it was. orchestrated by this guy Philip John. Donahue whose biography in no way. prepares you for this kaleidoscopic. boundary pushing National conversation. that he invited the country to have day. after day for 30 years. [Music].

and we'll be back in just a moment. [Music].

so who was Phil Dono you know my father. always had a job I was born in 1935 so. he you know his unemployment preceded my. birth and he felt the depression oh yes. my parents did absolutely he was born 6. years after the Great Depression into an. Irish Catholic Family in Cleveland his. dad sold Furniture his mom sold shoes I. worked for the nuns for 50 cents an hour. when I was 10 12 years old you know.

switching the he went to a Catholic day. school and later a Catholic college and. in his telling Catholicism was the. scaffolding for his entire way of. thinking the guy I had a to 16 years of. Catholic. Education you know I had most of the. answers who made me God made me why did. God make me I mean it was I knew the. answers to the toughest. questions and then in the' 60s the the. you know everything started to fall. apart and then he starts to rethink.

everything especially his relationship. with the. church we began to realize that we. really did have two Americas a black one. and a white one and the liberal. guilt my conscience began to manifest. itself and I began to question the. answers that had been given and uh. suddenly my mind was racing I guess I'd. have to say he gets really mad at his. local dicese which is building a fancy.

new cathedral where he thinks it's least. needed who else would spend a million. dollars on a building that is used about. 4 and 1/2 hours a week and he begs the. church instead to put that money into. inner city Catholic schools and suddenly. we were saying hold it hold it now we've. been listening to you now you listen to. us but the church leaders ignore him the.

church was built at a cost of a million. dollars including a bell tower it is. centrally air conditioned it stands. today in Centerville Ohio I think is a. very hard cold Monument to what churches. are everywhere almost always dark and. empty and when he loses that battle to. the church the church loses. [Music]. [Applause]. him so by the time he enters. broadcasting Donahue strongly identifies. with the power.

less don't talk about subsidizing the. farmer the man that printed the Box made. more than the man that grew the corn. farmers in our lifetime we've traveled. on in a corridor of fear gay men fear of. employers finding out fear of fellow. employees fear of landlords fear of the. family but we finally have decided at. our respective ages to put that aside. and to tell the world about our.

relationship and that we're very proud. of. [Music]. it black women you're not surprised that. there's not a greater participation of. uh women of color in the women's. movement I there are huge numbers of. women of color involved in the women's. movement it's just that we don't get the. media this is a real treat for. us and sees his job as challenging the. rich and the. powerful why couldn't the millions of. men women children who are Arab and who.

find themselves in this desperate. conflict and look around wondering when. where peace will be why can't they be. angry with you for your characterization. of them your. roundhouse criticism of. [Music]. them that sensibility is a through line. across every episode of his show and you. really see it in an interview that he. did in 1987 are you 40 I'm 41 41 41 with.

a young Donald Trump you're a star Mr. Trump and you're a businessman and you. do not run away from publicity Trump is. flying high his first book The Art of. the deal has just come out but Don Hugh. keeps bringing the conversation back to. the little guy uh well this is. interesting because as you know you're. the Fat Cat developer and uh you know. the book on you is that you throw little. old ladies who can't afford their rent. out of the apartment I don't think. that's the Brook on me if you want to.

know well he wants to point it down to. the street not up at Trump's Penthouse. and Trump Tower your father was was. there a lawsuit you didn't have enough. black or he didn't have enough blacks in. his project and that upset you I didn't. like it because it wasn't fact and I. decided to fight it and one point donu. reads from a passage in Trump's book. crazy the fact was that we did rent to. blacks in our buildings what we didn't. do was rent to welfare cases white or. black in which Trump says that he would. never rent a unit in one of his.

buildings to anybody on welfare I. watched what happened when the. government came after Samuel lafra. another Builder and he caved in and. starting taking welfare cases they. virtually ruined his. building Donahue at this moment. dramatically rubs his hands together as. if preparing to go into battle isn't. that aren't you pretty close here to to. looking like an insensitive guy from a. top your Trump Tower looking down on the. wman rink over the vast Holdings of your.

own Empire shouldn't we have just a. little more understanding from a man of. your influence and wealth on the issue. of making New York livable for all of us. safety on the subway these abut then we. can't continue to give you guys these. big tax breaks and that would go for and. Trump does what we all now know to be. his go-to move when somebody tries to. hold him accountable so when everybody. else in the city gets it but Donald. Trump when cotch and the administration. tries to stop Donald Trump and I don't. say give me the tax breaks I say don't.

give everyone else the tax breaks He. makes himself the victim no I'm honest. hey I'm not running for anything I'm not. running for office I don't have to lie. in a book I want to tell the facts okay. and toward the end of the episode as. always you keep saying you're not. running for office but why don't you. from New York the most preent questions. come from the women in the audience no I. wouldn't want to run for May of New York. uh I'd like to see somebody talented do. that but I really have no in running for. me thank you but you definitely are a.

political person whether you run for. office by what everything that you say. and do points in that direction you know. what it is I don't like being taken. advantage of okay and when I they saw. Trump's future even before Trump. did by the late 1980s the Phil donu Show. was a Bonafide hit it's syndicated. across the country and the wait time for. tickets to be in his studio audience is.

an astonishing 18 months and this. success opens up an entirely new genre. of TV copycats are popping up across the. daytime schedule sounds scary well the. mothers on today's show say they are. terrified of their own children Sally. Jesse Raphael Mor poic you are. not Heraldo Rivera Jerry. Springer you have a secret to tell him. yes. and your secret is I'm a man.

Jerry and most important of. all. Oprah who told Donahue that if it wasn't. for Phil Donahue there would never have. been an Oprah show her career would not. have been possible if it weren't for him. so well this is this is a full full full. circle for me well we've watched uh. Oprah as you've. soared there is no no other single human.

being who has done with this media what. Oprah has done my Cubs cap is off to. you Oprah aside the shows that follow. Donahue his illegitimate children as he. called them were nowhere near as. thoughtful as his show was but Donahue. steadfastly refused to criticize them. and he was asked to criticize them all. the time you talked about it being a.

naughty show but it is a far cry from. what you see today on television are you. comfortable with where it's. gone well you know it's hard for me to. be. uncomfortable with what's happening on. television today because I don't I've. been preached to so much in the 29 years. I was on the air I mean there were. viewers who got messages from God to get. me off the air there were people who. felt that the United States of America. was going going to hell and Phil Don he. was leading it there with atheists and.

doing shows like the march on skoki by. Nazis we had Nazis on our program so. when people say what do I think of this. or that program I'm a little bit. hesitant I don't want to I feel that the. shows not worthy of consideration will. fall of their own weight we don't want a. bunch of. uh white men and that's usually what it. winds up being behind closed doors. deciding what you and I should see I'm. saying because for him TV belonged in.

the hands of the viewer good bad smart. stupid irand or in studio surprise. paternity tests they all had their place. because the. alternative was undemocratic and one of. the main bullworks against somebody. assuming power who knows what's good for. you is a free press and unfettered. speech by the citizenry allowing so all.

of us to be heard we looking for a. cacophony of voices not a well-trained. [Music]. choir but eventually after three decades. that cacophony overtook donu the viewers. were voting and they were no longer. voting for him and his show ended its. run in 1996. he briefly tried to make a comeback in.

the early 2000s with a reboot of the Don. who Show on MSNBC The anti-war Movement. is heating up resist the war but all of. his anti-establishment. instincts ran up against the cruel. realities of cable news after the. September 11th Terror attacks at a time. when almost everybody else in TV news. seemed to be beating the drums of War. Donahue very loudly questioned the. coming US invasion of Iraq from uh this.

is an email from Michael I'm 17 I'm the. person the Bush Administration wants to. hold a rifle and go off and kill Iraqis. I would like to know why is that too. much to ask and to hear him tell it his. bosses at MSNBC were not interested in a. cacophony of voices they wanted a. well-trained choir it really is funny. almost when you look back on how how the. man management was just frozen by The.

anti-war Voice we were scolds we weren't. we weren't patriotic American people. disagreed with us uh and we weren't good. for. business and his show was cancelled. after just 7 months. [Music]. [Music].

as it happens the year he went off the. air for good was the year that I began. my career in journalism and when I think. about Phil donu now and I try to answer. that question of why I was always so. drawn to his work it's all right there. in his show he respected his audience he. never talked down to them he sought out. Nuance wherever he could find it he. forced us way outside our comfort zones. and he challenged us to see ourselves.

and our neighbors in a new and more. generous. [Music]. light a few months before Donahue died. back in May President Biden invited him. to the White House to receive the. presidential medal of freedom the. country's highest civilian honor. and before social media and clickbait.

news Phil Don broadcast the power of. personal stories and living rooms all. across America he helped change hearts. and Minds through honest and open. dialogue over the course of a defining. career in television through thousands. of daily conversations Phil donu steered. the nation's discourse and spoke to our. better angels I wish you were still. speaking there pal it made a big. difference. and for once Phil Donahue now seated in.

a. wheelchair didn't say a word. [Applause]. [Music].

we'll be right. back here's what else you need to. another day Madam vice president. governor Wells thank you so much for. sitting down with me in her first. extended interview since becoming the. Democratic nominee vice president KL. Harris joined by by her running mate Tim. Walls was pushed by CNN to explain.

positions she had taken during her first. run for president in 2020 but has since. backed away from including Banning. fracking and decriminalizing illegal. border crossings there was a debate you. raised your hand when asked whether or. not uh the Border should be. decriminalized do you still believe that. I believe there should be consequence we. have laws that have to be be followed. and enforced that address and deal with.

people who cross our border illegally. and there should be consequence and. Harris insisted that despite shifting. stances on specific policies her core. beliefs have remained the same how. should voters look at some of the. changes that you've made in your policy. is it because you have more experience. now and you've learned more about the. information is it because you were. running for president in a Democratic. primary and should they feel comfortable.

and confident that what you're saying. now is going to be your policy moving. forward Dana I think the the the most. important and most significant aspect of. my policy perspective and decisions is. my values have not changed. [Music]. you today's episode was produced by. Michael Simon Johnson Shannon Lynn. Stella tan and AA. chv it was edited by Michael benois.

contains original music by Maran Lozano. and Dan pal and was engineered by Chris. Wood our theme music is by Jim brunberg. and Ben lansberg of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael bbar. see you on Tuesday after the holiday.

[Music].