Uvalde Families Sue Call of Duty Publisher and Meta Over School Shooting

from The New York Times I'm Rachel. Abrams in for Michael and this is the. [Music]. daily as mass shootings continue to. plague the United States the families of. victims continue to search for. accountability now a pair of lawsuits by. the families of victims of the Uvalde. school shooting are trying a new tactic. the suits Target a popular video game a.

gun manufacturer and Instagram accusing. them of helping to groom and equip the. teenage gunmen who committed the. massacre today my colleague David. Goodman on the lawsuits and the lawyer. behind. them it's Tuesday June. [Music]. 18th so David after a shooting people.

are always looking around for who to. blame they ask questions about how did. this person get a gun could anything. have been done to prevent this should. anything have been done to prevent this. and now we've got these two new lawsuits. that are filed by the families of. victims in the Uvalde shooting and. they're pointing the finger in a pretty. interesting Direction so tell me about. those you know after all of these. shootings what we have is people from. the right and from the left sort of. going to their different camps on the. Democratic side there are calls for. greater gun control background checks.

other types of policies that could be. put into place to limit the access to. guns and on the Republican side it's who. is this person and what kind of mental. health challenges are particular to this. person and we've gone through the cycle. so many times that it's really you know. become just almost like an American. tradition for us. now but you know recently there have. been actually some efforts to try and. sort of broaden the scope of who might. be you know legally accountable for. these shootings we want to get you now. to your Texas families of victims of the.

rub elementary school shooting are. making an announcement you can say a lot. of things about the law enforcement. response in this case but one thing you. can't say is that they caused this. shooting families of yaldi shooting. victims filed lawsuits against companies. they say bear responsibility for. products used by the gunmen What's. Happening Here is we have these two new. lawsuits you know filed by the families. of most of the victims of the evaldi. Massac lawsuits have now been filed.

against three companies meta platforms. which owns Instagram the video game. company Activision which makes the. popular game Call of Duty and Daniel. Defense which made the AR-15 style rifle. used in the massacre that accuse video. game company and one of the biggest. social media platforms and a gun. manufacturer of essentially grooming the. gunmen these are really some of the most. far-reaching to be filed yet in response. to these escalating number of mass.

shootings in the US and they're really. the brainchild of this one. lawyer hello hi guys can you hear me. yeah how are you good good hi David how. are you and tell me about this lawyer. well his name is Josh kosoff he's 57. years old he's based in Connecticut and. for most of his career practicing law. he's been a medical malpractice attorney. a personal injury attorney the way I got. into.

the gun litigation was really by total. accident and happen stance and you. really had no experience trying gun. cases at all and so how does he actually. go from making the leap to representing. some of the families here well the way. he makes this transition starts well. before yal basically 10 years earlier. well I'm about 20 miles from Sandy Hook. it starts with the school shooting at. Sandy Hook and he essentially gets. involved by accident tell me how you got.

approached about the Sandy Hook case I. was getting a rod to the airport and the. driver asked me what I did for a living. and I told him that I was a lawyer and. he said uh oh really boy do I have a. friend who really needs a lawyer he said. uh that his friend had just lost a child. at Sandy Hook he had a conversation with. a cab driver who ended up connecting him. with one of the Sandy Hook families at. the time I wasn't really thinking about. a lawsuit I was simply thinking about.

could I help these people get through. probate could I help them with the. manage the Press which was all you know. he's been a medical malpractice attorney. he can help in terms of the basic law. after someone's lost someone but I. started to get to know these families. and I started to see tremendous. shattering loss which left them sort of. looking for answers and and as he's. trying to figure out the strategy he. comes across photos of the crime scene. that the police have released and I saw.

a photograph of the weapon on the floor. of this classroom and I just asked the. question how did it get. here and so that sort of began a long. Odyssey of so trying he starts to think. about the kinds of liability that might. exist here and as he starts looking into. this um I knew nothing about guns as a. product and I knew even less about gun. litigation I didn't know anything about.

the law of guns I just assumed you could. sue a gun company for being negligent I. thought you could sue them for selling a. product that was unreasonably dangerous. you know his assumption is that like any. legal action you can hold a company. liable for the way that their product is. used or misused only to learn that. actually this industry is uniquely. protected by the federal government and. so he ends up discovering that there's. this 2005 law the protection of lawful. Commerce and arms act often referred to. as plaa and I read one case and I.

thought H what is this. plcaa and I looked it up and I read the. statute and I genuinely thought it was. not. [Music]. constitutional so what this law does is. really give arms makers gun. manufacturers a a broad set of. protections against being sued for the. way their weapons are used to cause harm. you know the sort of harm that occurs. all the time in this country and most.

lawyers come to the conclusion that this. all but slams the door shut on the. courts when it comes to Bringing legal. cases against gun makers for these mass. shootings and worst of all the gun. industry was perceiving it as an. absolute. immunity and the perception of being. immune from civil liability and having. to pay damages for harms or deaths that. are created when you sell guns is a very. dangerous perception.

okay so kov is considering suing the. company that made this gun that was used. in Sandy Hook and he runs up against. this wall of protection that's unique to. the gun industry pla which does this. make him think. twice well not exactly you know he. didn't really even know enough to have. that attitude he sort of felt like this. was the right thing to do and he was. going to keep going with it so what he. ends up doing with this case is is. taking advantage of an exception to the.

federal law so the law is the protection. of lawful Commerce in arms act what he. correctly notices is that it does not. protect unlawful Commerce and so what he. tries to do is prove that the company in. the Sandy Hook shooting Remington has. done illegal marketing you know has. essentially violated a Connecticut. consumer law okay so basically he's. arguing hey Remington broke this other. law so they should not be protected by. pla right and does that work it.

does and so you know one of the things. that he points to is that these. advertisements that were aimed at. regular people that played up the guns. military connections and their combat. Readiness and he basically argues that. this was an unlawful uh promotion. because in the military guns are used to. wage war and kill people I mean there's. a lot of legal back and forth but you. know eventually the suit survives the. company's attempts to get it thrown out. which in and of itself is really a. remarkable feed M and so then they go.

into this phase where the company has to. turn over documents as part of the. lawsuit it's as if they were selling. widgets but they're talking about AR-15. so what they're trying to do in this. time period of the Sandy Hook shooting. was they're trying to reach and expand. the AR-15 Market to Target youth as. potential future customers they call the. Target and end user so what he's able to. see in these documents that are turned. over are you know internal company.

discussions about marketing weapons and. he sees that this company is trying very. hard to reach a younger audience we see. in the documentation um questions like. what kind of problems do they have is it. a a man a woman or a kid who are we. trying to reach and why does he think. they need to reach this younger audience. because they need to win that audience. to sell their products you know this is. like any other them in a you know Market.

that's very competitive and in order to. get new customers you need to go get. them when they're young you need to. develop a brand loyalty early on we saw. this effort reflected in the. documentation that we were able to. obtain there were very intentional. efforts to reach these kids through Call. of Duty in fact the records show that. Remington the gun manufacturer had. actually made a deal with Activision the. makers of Call of Duty to get one of. their products featured in the game and. it was reported that the Sandy Hook.

shooter was an avid player of Call of. Duty oh wow interesting so how did they. actually make use of that information in. court at this point all that information. is really locked up in the lawsuit it. won't be made public until the trial but. before that ever happens the company. Remington is in financial trouble and is. essentially bankrupt and its insurers. are the ones negotiating with the. lawyers at this point and they agree to. a settlement to end this lawsuit so does. that mean they.

won well it's a win for the families. they got $73 million in a free market. where corporate conduct is often. motivated by greed and people lose their. moral compass the only way to correct. that conduct and to protect the public. is by hitting them in the pocketbook you. know I mean this was the biggest. settlement by a gun manufacturer for a m. shooting that we've yet seen but you.

know he didn't actually test these. arguments at trial so there was never a. final verdict on the arguments that he. was putting. forth after the settlement happens he. really felt like this was the end for. him with these kinds of cases I didn't. know that I would be the quote like mass. shooting lawyer unquote it was something. I never anticipated but then just a few. months later after they settle the Sandy. Hook case a gunman walks in to Rob. Elementary School in yal Texas and.

Uvalde was like Sandy Hook. 2.0 with even more outrageous facts and. the shooting there is really eerily. similar in its. details and I just felt when I was. contacted by these families that I can't. turn my back on this like I knew it was. my obligation to do it so kostov gets. involved in your vault day it had been.

pretty much widely reported early on. that he acquired the Daniel Defense. AR-15 effectively from the day he turned. 18 and as he starts to dig into the case. what stands out to him is the timing so. that told me that this company had been. targeting this kid for years and he's. pretty convinced he can draw a direct. line between the marketing scheme and. the shooter and really expand on the. strategy that he' pioneered with Sandy. Hook.

what makes him say that how is he so. sure well part of the reason he feels. this way is that he says he has access. to information that's actually coming. from the shooter's phone now to be clear. this is something that I haven't. actually seen myself but kov in writing. his complaint what he does with that is. construct this really Vivid timeline. that he says explains you know the Crux. of the matter here you know how did a. impoverished teenager from you know a.

small town in rural Texas becomes so. enamored with this pretty expensive. rifle that he would be so primed to. purchase it that he would do so really. minutes after he was legally able to so. what has kostov actually learned from. looking at the shooter's phone and what. timeline is he able to construct from. that okay well according to the. complaint in November of 2021 which is. several months before the shooting the. shooter here downloads Call of Duty.

Modern Warfare and he's downloaded the. game before a different version of the. game but what's unique about this. version of the game is that the title. page so the loading screen that comes up. when you first start playing the game. features a character you know really. sort of all decked out in body armor and. they're carrying an AR15 style rifle. with this sort of special site on it a. special scope and this is a weapon made. by Daniel Defense it's the ddm4 4 V7.

model which is exactly the rifle used by. the shooter in yaldi m so he's exposed. to this weapon at that point we don't. know if it's the first time he's seen it. but certainly after that moment he. begins to research on his phone this. particular rifle this very Niche weapon. why this weapon all these weapons do the. same thing they're all function exactly. the same and they all offer the same. ability to kill and these guns are not. the cheapest on the market was something. about this small company from Georgia.

that spoke to this kid and so you can. see that shortly after downloading this. game he begins to research Daniel. Defense and research this particular. weapon and the Daniel Defense website. becomes one of these frequently visited. sites on his browser of this phone that. kov says he has access to and the. shooter begins saving money from his. low-wage job to buy this high-end. weapon and according to the complaint. about a month before the shooting at Rob. Elementary the shooter creates an.

account on the Daniel Defense website he. puts the Daniel Defense rifle in his. cart like many of us have done with. other items and soon after this is in. April of 2022 while the shooter is still. 17 he puts this particular weapon the. ddm4 V7 into his cart on the website and. the complaint alleges what the company. does at that point is send him an email. and they do what every other company. does in the Online Marketplace they say.

hey are you still interested in buying. that Daniel Defense rifle because we're. still more than happy to sell it to. you now this is one of these kinds of. you know alerts that says hey you know. we saw you put something in your cart. are you do you still want to buy it but. he's not allowed to buy it at that. moment because he's still 17 all they. have to do is buy their time to get what. they really want from him which is his. credit card he's so eager for that. moment to come he's apparently Googling. how many days it will be he then goes on.

a kind of counter to figure it out and. the day he turns 18 he's on that Daniel. Defense website that happens when he is. 18 years and 23 minutes old just minutes. after midnight wow and 23 minutes after. turning 18 he gets confirmation that he. has purchased it this roughly $22,000. rifle it was clearly proof positive of a. successful marketing campaign remember. their goal is to sell the this kid an.

AR-15 as soon as possible to beat out. their competition they have successfully. hooked this kid with this engagement of. a sale and 8 days later he walks in to. Rob Elementary School with that rifle. and opens. [Music]. fire we'll be right back. [Music].

so David just to recap kostoff is. examining the sale of this gun to the. Uvalde shooter and it seems like that. email from the gun maker is important. but these are the kinds of emails that I. get all the time when I'm buying. something online like a coffee maker or. pair of shoes or something so help me. understand why it's important and. significant here well for kostov this. push email is you know pretty important. piece of evidence that really allows him. to make the argument that Daniel Defense.

is offering to sell a weapon to a minor. and that would be a violation of Texas. law right and if he can successfully. argue that they violated state law he. can get around pla then bring a lawsuit. against the gun manufacturer for this. mass shooting that's right but Daniel. Defense isn't the only company being. sued here so you would also mentioned. the companies behind Call of Duty and. Instagram so tell me how kov thinks that. those companies are involved right so. kosov has actually filed another lawsuit. in California and that's the one that.

names Activision the publisher of Call. of Duty and meta the parent company for. Instagram and that lawsuit is about. holding those companies liable for. essentially helping promote the weapons. that are used in mass shootings to. vulnerable children I mean Daniel. Defense is remember a niche company they. have less than 1% of the market share. for these types of weapons and his. argument is that they wouldn't have been. able to reach this kid without the help. of these other companies and you know. says is that it really took these three.

prongs the gun manufacturer the video. game company and the social media. company you know to groom this yal. shooter to get him primed to want this. weapon and what is he basing that off of. is it just the appearance of the gun on. the loading page of the game well in the. case of Call of Duty like that is. evidence of a connection that he sees. between the two companies that that kind. of thing doesn't happen just by accident. okay so kof's argument is that there's. this three-prong marketing strategy and.

he's saying that the gun manufacturer. needs these two companies to capture a. younger audience so let's talk more. about his arguments around those two. companies starting with Activision the. publisher of Call of Duty you know kov. says that you know he's trying to make. the link between the Daniel Defense gun. and Activision but beyond that he's. making a broader argument for how the. game Call of Duty actually is really a. key part of this ecosystem he would say. that can shape a person like this evaldi. shooter and what his argument is is that.

you know Call of Duty is a first-person. shooter game it's you know incredibly. popular it's really this extremely. immersive experience and you know for. kov this is important this is a very. important Point video games have always. had an addictive quality but they have. never had the 360 degree immersion of a. Call of Duty it uses the reward system. of an addictive game and partly. and very much is a training.

simulation that is so. realistic that it allows the user to. experience the actual recoil of the. weapon the chaos of killing and to be. habituated to it he argues it's more. like a simulator and less like a game. that is really sort of giving players. the experience of killing you know it's. practice for eventually doing the thing. and it is too fasil to say video games.

don't cause violence when a lot of that. those studies are based. on generic video games of yester year so. you know what kostov argues basically is. that the studies out there don't really. account for this that they're about. video games in the past that essentially. you know these conversations that we've. had about violence in video games you. know these are outdated and in some. sense it's true that there haven't been. robust studies on you know the impacts.

of newer versions of Call of Duty for. example or you know how it might. influence behavior but you know this has. been an area that's been studied for a. while including recently and there. hasn't been this exact connection that. you know he wants to say exists between. you know increasing levels of realism. and violence and you know it's also. important to note that you know at the. same time experts really do say that gun. violence is more tied to gun access than. it is to violent video games I mean that. is a really striking argument though the. idea that game could train you to use a.

specific type of weapon I mean aren't. these two experiences playing a video. game and using a gun in real life really. quite different well one of the things. to know about the shooter in the evaldi. massacre is that prior to going to that. elementary school and opening Fire by. all reports that we have he had never. fired a weapon before but he had shot. for many many hours countless hours guns. within the world of Call of Duty in fact. one of the things that kostov argues in.

the complaint and he has information. from the phone and another internet. activity to back this up he claims is. that he was very very good and got lots. of positive feedback from the game to. indicate that he had really excelled at. it and kov is quick to point out and he. does so in the complaint that you know. this shooter and the one in Sandy Hook. were not the only ones to play Call of. Duty you also had the El Paso Walmart. shooter the one in Highland Park. Illinois they were were also Avid. apparently players of this game.

according to public reports but couldn't. it just be that people who are more. likely to commit mass shootings also. enjoy playing these types of violent. games I mean I feel like we've been. having this debate forever about whether. violent video games increase actual real. world violence is the argument he's. making that the game causes the behavior. just like a little bit of a stretch yeah. I mean I think if that was the only. argument that he was making it probably. really would be a stretch and we would. be back in this you know decades long.

debate over violence in video games and. and whether you can connect the two but. what he's really arguing here is you. know not so much that the game caused. this action but that it's an addictive. platform that's part of this larger. ecosystem that allows the gun. manufacturer to reach teenagers and that. this whole ecosystem is essentially. facilitating violence so kov is saying. hey Call of Duty is in a league of its. own in terms of its addictiveness and. its ability influence its users and he's.

also making this argument that the game. is connecting these young sometimes. troubled people like the shooter with. this Niche AR-15 style rifle and that. therefore Call of Duty and its maker. Activision are at least partially. responsible for the eval shooting so. what do they actually say in response to. that. accusation well you know as to whether. they have an actual formal marketing. agreement with Daniel Defense they. didn't comment on that and they didn't. want to address you know the spe. specifics of the lawsuit they did give.

me a more General response acknowledging. you know the pain and and the horror of. the eval Day shooting but also saying. quote academic and scientific research. continues to show that there is no. causal link between video games and gun. violence and as a company points out. there you know it is a tiny fraction of. people that play video games that are. violent and go on to commit real world. violence and there are millions and. millions of others who you know have. been playing this game for years all.

across the United States and haven't. done anything like that and at the same. time there's been you know many other. Mass shooters that were not connected to. the game right and so we've talked about. prongs one and two which are the gun. manufacturer and the video game so tell. me about the third prong which in this. case is Instagram specifically what is. the legal logic behind blaming them you. know kov says that Instagram is is key. because of how easily gun content can. reach young people on the platform that. young people are able to sign up even.

those who are younger than they're. technically allowed to get on the. platform and that this essentially. allows for kind of an unregulated or. unmitigated connection between gun. marketers gun manufacturers and you know. teenage viewers of of Instagram and even. though the social media platform doesn't. actually allow the sponsored ads you. know you're not allowed as a gun. manufacturer to advertise on the. platform what you can do is have organic. content they can have their own posts. and one of the things that kov is.

arguing here is that you know because. these companies have felt like they had. you know a federal shield around them. that protected them they've kind of. allowed their marketing efforts to some. of them anyway to get pretty extreme and. so the complaint calls attention to. posts from Daniel Defense including one. where they show off a weapon setup and. describe it as quote totally murdered. out and there's another one that shows a. view through a rifle scope you know. looking down from a rooftop and it's in. an urban setting and there's a. windshield of a parked car that's in the. crosshairs and the caption reads rooftop.

ready even at midnight wow and you know. targeting someone in a car with your. weapon you know it's almost by. definition an aggressive use of that. weapon and it's something that they were. they were marketing you know they were. marketing this weapon as something that. you might use in these situations right. and so these are posts that that kostov. argues have have gotten increasingly. extreme because there's essentially the. belief that there's nothing reing them. in that the law protected them and that. at the same time there was actually. Market chair to be gained by selling. this violence okay but do we know that.

the Uvalde shooter even saw some of the. content on Instagram that we're talking. about no we don't know that I mean it's. not clear at least from what's in the. complaint that he did what the complaint. says uh and this is from cell phone data. that COV says he has is that the shooter. was an avid user of Instagram that he. had at least 20 accounts wow and we know. he was searching for the gun at least. according to kof's description of what. was on his phone and that he was on the. Daniel Defense website but it's still an. open question as to you know whether he.

would have been shown this Daniel. Defense content because of his. activities on that website right this. seems like a hard argument that. Instagram should be held liable for. something that Daniel Defense or. influencers or whoever were posting. right it is a big challenge for them in. this lawsuit against meta at least and. that's because of a law that's broadly. known as as section 230 that really. protects these platforms from the. content that people post on the site so. it's very difficult for someone to come. along and Sue Instagram because of that.

content you know it's somewhat Akin. actually to the gun context with that. 2005 law PLA and it's a legal hurdle. that many people have thought makes. these kinds of suits not impossible but. very very difficult and kasoff is you. know pushing on that wall in the same. way that he's been pushing on the pla. wall in the gun context and you know. what makes these suits you know novel. and and sort of surprising is you know. he went from trying to force you know.

open one door while also pushing on. another very difficult door and so he's. really you know kind of doubled his. difficulty with these suits but he. believes that as we've discussed the. evidence in this case is striking enough. that it makes it plausible and and what. is meta saying in response well meta has. not said anything about this lawsuit in. fact I followed up you know and you know. they don't have a public comment about. it David all of these arguments seem. extremely difficult to make how How. likely is it that these cases actually. go.

anywhere well you know I think at this. point it's pretty hard to say but. there's a lot of hurdles standing in his. way in both cases you know he's not just. going after a gun manufacturer he's. going after one of the biggest you know. social media companies and a huge video. game company which is happens to be. owned by Microsoft so you know this case. could get thrown out in the initial. process you know he may lose if he ever. gets to trial at that point. but what kov is trying to do here and.

what other lawyers I talked to said is. to really try and sort of shift the. conversation away from the person and. also kind of away from the gun to. looking at what is the culture that. surrounds these kids and there is a. sense in I think America right now that. there is something sort of off around. social media use and teenagers you know. uh I asked kov about this you know his. lawsuit is kind of hitting at a time. when there's broad discussion of you. know the potential harms of social media.

but I think what he's been able to do in. this suit is reframe some of those. arguments around very specific data from. this one Shooter's online activities and. really paint a picture of how these. three prongs came together to create one. shooter and you know possibly allowed. the families some way to get. accountability or and actually hold. someone liable for the shooting that you. know really isn't available through any. other means and so you know for kostov.

just doing that is worth. [Music]. trying David thank you very much well. thank you. [Music]. Rachel we'll be right. back here's what else you need to know. today Russian President Vladimir Putin. is visiting North Korea Putin is.

expected to ask North Korean leader Kim. Jong-un for more weapons for Russia's. war with Ukraine this will be the second. meeting between the two men in the last. 9 months a sign of Russia and North. Korea's deepening military. ties and on Monday Maryland governor. West Moore pardoned about 100,000 people. for low-level marijuana offenses like. possession the move comes as more and. more states are legalizing marijuana and. pardoning marijuana related crimes which. criminal justice Advocates say.

disproportionately affect people of. color Maryland's attorney general said. about the pardons quote today is about. Equity it is about racial. [Music]. Justice today's episode was produced by. Diana win Bolivia Nat and Sydney Harper. it was edited by Liz oalen and Paige. cowt fact checked by Susan Lee contains. original music by Dan Powell Rowan NE.

misto Pat mccusker and Maran Lozano and. was engineered by Alyssa Moxley our. theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. lansberg of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Rachel Abrams we'll see you tomorrow. [Music].