Trump Sent Them to a Notorious Prison. Torture Followed.

From the New York Times, I'm Michael. Babaro. This is the Daily. [music]. For 4 months, hundreds of men from. Venezuela said they endured [music]. physical abuse, mental abuse, and sexual abuse. [music].

inside a notorious prison. [music]. [music] Today, what my colleague Julie. Turkowitz found actually happened inside. [music] that prison and why many now see. it as perhaps [music] the darkest. chapter of all in President Trump's. program of mass deportation. >> [music].

>> It's Monday, December 8th. Julie, you have spent the past many. months investigating the plight of these. roughly 200 Venezuelan nationals who. were deported by the Trump. administration from the US to a prison. in El Salvador. And along the way, you. have broke story after story about who.

they are, what they did or didn't do. And now you bring us your latest. investigation. So tell us what animated. that latest probe and and what you. found. So, I think that so many. listeners remember back in March when. these 250 or so Venezuelan men were put. on planes to this foreign prison in El. Salvador, accused sumearily without.

trials of being terrorists. and then in a very very public way taken. off the planes, bent at the waist. shackled, shaved, and put in this. maximum security prison in El Salvador. >> Right? It was the most indelible image. in President Trump's mass deportation. campaign because it felt the most. unfamiliar and kind of brutal.

>> Absolutely. And I think that it was. meant to send a message. This is what. will happen to you if you come to the. United States illegally. And after that, the men disappeared. They did not have access to lawyers. They did not have access to family. members. There were family members in. Karakas in the United States marching. asking for some kind of information. about their loved ones. You had. courtroom tussles in the United States.

with lawyers trying to get these folks. back to the US or at the very least try. and find some kind of information about. what had happened to them, >> right? which was met with a wall of. resistance from the Trump administration. who basically said, "Take our word for. it that these are the worst of the. worst.". >> Absolutely. And we as journalists asked. over and over again. Please give us. information about these men. Give us. their names. Their names were never. released. M and we also asked for.

information about their criminal. histories, but the Trump administration. refused to give us sort of a list. describing the different alleged crimes. that had been committed by all of these. men. The only ways that we found out who. they were was through leaks. >> Mhm. Right. And so it began to feel like. a pretty endless black box. >> Correct. And then over the summer there is a.

breakthrough and we start to hear that. there are talks happening between the US. government and the Venezuelan government. in which the US government is. considering releasing. these 250ome men from this Salvadoran. prison. And one day in July this is. exactly what happens. These men are. released and sent to Venezuela.

And finally, we have the opportunity to. find out what actually happened to these. men on the inside. So, [music] I immediately begin speaking. with a team of reporters who I work with. who are inside Venezuela, [music]. and I ask them to race out and [music].

begin to document the reunions of these. men with their family members. And from. there, all of us as a team, three. Venezuelan reporters, [music] a. Venezuelan photographer, and myself, we. begin these sort of methodical. interviews of these men, talking to them. about [music] their experiences and what. they lived through on the inside. We. start collecting and cross-referencing. their stories, going [music] back, doing.

follow-up interviews to confirm. timelines, facts, narratives in general. We start photographing their injuries, their physical conditions, talking to. them about the after effects [music]. of what they experienced, gathering. medical reports from doctors they've. seen. And what emerges is this pretty. clear and very consistent [music]. account of widespread abuse among the.

men inside the prison. [music] The abuse. that they describe is physical. It is. psychological. At times it is sexual. And [music]. in many cases the men describe it as. torture. >> Wow. >> And by the time we [music]. finish the reporting as a team, we have. interviewed 40 of these men.

>> [music]. >> Tell us about one of these men that you. spoke to whose story is very consistent. with what you heard from all 40. >> Sure. >> Luis Chakon is a young man from. Venezuela whose story is really. representative, I think, of of the. stories of so many of these men.

He is a father of three. He comes to the. United States from Venezuela in 2023. He. comes with his family. Like so many of. these guys, he says that he's fleeing a. really bad economic situation. and also that he is following this flow. of people that came up through the. Darian Gap, >> right? and he's working in Milwaukee. He.

is working for Uber as an Uber Eats. driver. >> And the way that he tells the story is. that he is with his son and they are. doing Uber Eats deliveries and they go. to McDonald's and he gets an order for a. hamburger. So, he is making this $11 McDonald's.

delivery when he is pulled over by the. police. and told that he has a tail light out. And this is what sort of begins his. journey to this maximum security prison. in El Salvador. Well, surely it wasn't. just a tail light out. >> Turns out that Luis had had some.

previous scuffles with the law. >> He in 2024 had been accused of domestic. violence and the case was later. dismissed. He also had been accused of. stealing some things from a Walmart and. that case was still pending. So he had. been charged with theft and was awaiting. the next step in the case.

>> He is taken to the police station and it. is also in this place where he says that. officials notice some scars on his leg. and say something to the effect of, you. know, oh these, you know, we got to look. out for this guy. These could be bullet wounds and they. also looked suspiciously at his tattoos, he recalled.

>> And why does all that end up mattering? What we know is that in many cases, the. Trump administration was using tattoos. as a sign that these individuals were. gang members and in fact had a a rating. system that it used to determine who was. a supposed member of a gang and then to. send people to this prison.

We have no evidence that Luis Chakon is. or was a member of this gang deua. just like we have very little evidence. that many of these men were members of. this gang. Nevertheless, they were sent. to this prison and the Trump. administration has said publicly that. they were all part of this gang. And. what does Luis describe as his journey. to this prison in your conversations.

with him? >> Luis Chakon has a very interesting. journey to the prison in El Salvador. He. describes. asking to be deported to Venezuela. He does not want to extend his time at. all in detention because he knows that. he needs to get out and be somewhere.

where he can make some money to support. his family. And he believes that he is. being sent by the United States to. Venezuela. He has heard about these men going to El. Salvador. M. >> he's very scared that he's going to be. sent to El Salvador. He says that he was. assured that he was not going to El. Salvador and then he is loaded onto this. deportation plane.

But eventually they do land in El. Salvador. And the men who were on these. planes. described looking out their window. seeing a sign that indicated that they. had arrived in El Salvador and just the. terror of realizing that they might be. staying there.

They talked about Salvadoran guards. getting on the plane. One of them talked. about sort of trying to tighten their. seat belts in this feeble attempt to. stay on the plane. >> and then of course being forced off of. the airplane. And these guards are just. bending these guys at the waist, slamming them down the stairs against. vehicles onto buses.

and bringing them into. this feared prison where they are forced. to their knees, where they are shaved. and eventually. thrown. thrown into these prison cells. which have these four plank metal beds. that someone described as a sort of.

living morg. And Louise specifically. recalls being told, "This is hell. You will leave here only in a body bag. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back. [music].

So, Julie, what are the conditions that. Luis and the rest of these Venezuelans. find in this prison? So the men are divided into cell blocks. approximately 10 men in each cell. They. are given bunk beds. Metal most often. without any kinds of mattress or sheet. The water is a sort of open sistern.

They're supposed to use that water to. drink. >> as well as to bathe. >> They're supposed to drink their bathing. water. >> Correct. They also say that they are. consistently denied medical care. There. is one man named Aldo Kulminarees who. comes into the prison with diabetes. He. tells officials there he has diabetes. and needs insulin. He said that he was. denied insulin for 5 days. He's.

eventually given the wrong kind of. insulin which leads to hypoglycemia and. two attacks that lead him to pass out. Wow. >> There is a young man who becomes very. very sick to the point where the other. inmates are bringing food and water to. his lips with their hands. And he's. eventually sent to an infirmary where he. says that a doctor told him he should.

just resign himself. It is time to die. >> That's stunning. >> And for the most part, what these men. speak about is just constant physical. abuse. This means beatings. being kicked and dragged.

and it also means restraint positions. Many of the men spoke about a position. they called the gurua position, the. crane position. They were forced to. kneel for hours and handcuffed behind. their backs and then at times lifted by. the handcuffs.

>> to put pressure on their shoulders and. backs and sometimes also stomped on. their feet and hands while in this. position. >> That sounds like torture. This abuse. goes on for months and they talk about. getting to points of extreme. psychological desperation and one day. they sort of start to crack and they. decide that they're going to stop eating.

and ask for better treatment and they. decide that they want to write their. messages. They take some metal from the beds and. cut themselves. and using their own blood write on the. sheets messages like we are not. criminals, we are migrants. >> and they hang these sheets.

from what they called the piping in the. cells. I mean they are that despondent. that they are writing messages of. protest in their own blood. That's how. far gone the situation has become. >> Exactly. I don't think that they. believed they had any other options and. this was something. But what happens next is an even bigger. rebellion in May. There's a guard search.

of one of the cells. And during this. search, officials beat a man so badly that he is. bleeding from head to toe, according to. Luis. And this sets off so much anger. that some of the inmates. dislodge metal parts from their bed and.

use the metal parts to open cell doors. And for a moment, some of these men have. this taste of something like freedom. Then of course they immediately realize. that they are completely outmatched by. the guards. Luis [snorts]. tells us they retreat into their cells. and that is when the guards begin going.

cell by cell and really punishing the. men, shooting them at point blank with. what they call rubber bullets in the. hand, in the head, in the leg. My photographer colleague traveled. around Venezuela photographing. these men. And you can see one of them.

has this gash down the front of his face. that he said was caused by a rubber. bullet that ricocheted off of his. forehead. There is another man who said that he. was shot in the thigh with a rubber. bullet and has this really sort of. gnarly welt in his thigh that we. documented. >> What happened after this shooting? Did. these men get any kind of medical. treatment?

>> So, they talk about asking for medical. care following these injuries and some. of them were eventually taken to an. infirmary. The man with the bullet in. his leg, for example, talks about it. being removed without any kind of. anesthesia. >> And Louise describes how after this. attempted rebellion, what really happens. is there is a sort of new wave of.

punishment and repression inside the. prison. >> And what does that look like? So there. is an isolation room in the prison that. the men spoke to us about. They call. Isla the island. And these men say that the island is. really the place where some of the most. depraved acts occurred.

Luis speaks about experiencing. punishment that included having his head. dunked in water as if the guards were. attempting to drown him. And you know, this is pretty graphic for. for some of our listeners, but one of. the inmates talks about being taken.

there alone by several of the guards. wearing hoods who forced him to perform. oral sex in this space. Julie, throughout this period, as all. these horrific. actions are allegedly occurring, are. these men able to speak to anyone in the. outside world through phone calls, emails, anything. >> These men are denied access to the.

people they want to speak to. During. this entire period, they receive two. important visits. one from Christine. Gnome, the head of the Department of. Homeland Security, and from the Red. Cross, which speaks to them, interviews. them, and delivers a report to the. government of El Salvador, but never. makes that report public. >> H and as we know, [clears throat]. Secretary Gnome praises this operation.

So, it would seem she did not hear these. kinds of accounts from these men. We don't know what Christine heard while. she was inside the prison. What we know. is that these men felt so powerless that. several of them began to contemplate. suicide. Luis is one [music] of these men.

He had heard inside the prison that if. one person died, maybe all of them would. [music] be able to go free. And he gets. a sheet. He gets up on one of the beds. and he indicates to his fellow inmates. that he's going to hang himself. and they pull him down.

He said, "Were it not for these men, Miss Companeros, >> I would not be here today telling you. the story that I'm telling you. [music].

I want to ask you what might seem like a. somewhat insensitive question given the. really shocking descriptions from these. men, but I think as journalists we have. to ask it. How do you and our colleagues. go about making sure that this harrowing. testimony is true? This is a very important and fair. question. Of course, we interviewed 40.

of these men. Their testimonies were. consistent with each other's, but we. weren't inside the prison. >> Mhm. >> We couldn't speak to the guards. We. couldn't speak to officials in El. Salvador. And so, we wanted somebody. else to help us understand. how much we should believe these. testimonies. And so we reached out to a nonprofit. group of forensic experts and we.

provided them with a summary of the. testimony as well as photographs of the. injuries in some cases doctor's reports. >> You basically asked them to audit your. reporting. >> Correct. And what they said was that the. testimony and the other evidence that we. provided were consistent and credible. And they said that in their assessment, much of the abuse that was described met.

the United Nations definition of. torture. And I think it bears repeating. that this is torture inflicted on men. whose deportation to this prison was not. based on any normal legal process. They. were never tried on allegations of being. terrorists. In fact, the only judge who. ever touched their case was a federal. judge in the US who tried to stop the.

flights carrying many of them from ever. landing in El Salvador, an order that. the Trump administration pretty much. ignored. And in the case of Louise, yes, there are charges of theft in the US. that in theory might merit a regular old. deportation, but in no world would the. allegations against someone like him. ever seem to justify beatings and. torture in a prison in El Salvador.

>> Correct. I'm curious what motivated the release. of these men if inevitably releasing. them would mean that they could tell. these stories to the world. Stories of. essentially torture. >> It's a good question and I think that. many of us following the story thought. that these men might spend the rest of. their lives in this prison. But the. Venezuelan government, which wanted the. release of these men, had a bargaining.

chip. And that bargaining chip is that. the government of Nicolas Maludo, the. country's autocrat, had been detaining. US citizens and US residents inside. Venezuela over the last year. And so by. July had amassed a sort of group of 10. US prisoners. and the government of Venezuela. negotiated. with the government of the United States.

the release of these 10 US citizens and. residents in exchange for the freedom of. these now 252 men who were in the. Salvador in prison. >> So in the end it's Maduro, not Trump, who forces these men's awful saga to. come to an end. >> Yes. I mean, the Madur government. definitely has a hand in securing these. men's freedom.

>> So, I just want to reflect on what. happened in this prison and why it. happened. And at the end of the day, it. happened because the Trump. administration wanted it to happen. And. I'm old enough, and I suspect you are. too, to remember when the United States. had to reckon in a very visible and. official way with the idea that it had. carried out torture systematically after. 9/11 to those that the US had detained.

in response to those terror attacks that. year. And when the conduct that occurred. to these detainees was revealed, American officials, members of Congress. were so offended and so convinced that. it betrayed America's values that they. released a report documenting it so the. whole country could see it and they. said, "This will never happen again.".

And here it is again. not conducted by. the US per se as it was after 9/11, but. this time in a sense outsourced to a. foreign country by American government. officials. How should we think about that? It's hard to imagine that US officials. did not have some idea that something. like this was going to happen inside the. Salvadoran prison. Just 2 years before.

these men were sent there, the US. government released its own report. It's. a public report saying that there was. strong reason to believe that torture. was happening inside the Salvadoran. prison system. >> Wow. They knew. >> They knew. And I mean, one of the questions I have. is why there has not been more outrage. about what these men experienced inside. this prison. Why we have not seen the.

same kind of outrage that we saw after. 9/11. >> And why do you think that is if you had. to make an educated journalistic guess. here? Yeah, it's very interesting that. the Trump administration and the Bule. administration didn't really try and. hide any of this. Donald Trump came into. the White House promising to address the. immigration problem at the border in the.

country in general and he promised to. deter migration and that is what he has. done. I mean, the numbers at the US. border are way down. And what I was. thinking about a lot as I was reporting. this story. is how far basically are Americans. willing to go for migration deterrence? And you know, when we went to the Trump. administration with our findings, they.

did not deny any of the testimony. Instead, a spokeswoman said to us that. we should be focusing our reporting. elsewhere, specifically on children who. had been killed by quote vicious illegal. aliens. >> H I mean, first of all, that suggests. that the men who end up in this prison. in El Salvador have killed children, and.

I don't believe you found any evidence. of that. Putting that aside, this sounds. like a spokesperson for the White House. basically saying to the New York Times, "We've seen all your reporting. We've. seen these accounts of torture of men we. put in this prison." And our response. is, "Who cares?" Which is very striking. >> Correct. And I should mention that that. the legal door is still open for the.

Trump administration to continue sending. people to El Salvador. >> and to this prison in El Salvador. >> Correct. >> I want to end by asking you what has. become of men like Luis now that they. are released. Have they achieved. anything resembling normaly now that. they are back in [snorts] Venezuela? a. country of course that they had sought. to flee which is why they came to the. United States in the first place. Now. they are back having been through this.

experience. What are they saying life is. like right now? >> Sure. Well, Louise for one is separated. from his family. His partner and their. three children are in the United States. All of these men talked about suffering. pretty intense psychological. trauma as well as physical problems. They talked about blurred vision, recurring migraines,

trouble breathing. Many of them. described themselves as zombies. essentially. >> This sounds like a form of PTSD. >> for sure. They talked about not being able to. sleep [music] and when they do sleep, experiencing a sensation of of feeling. like they're back in the prison. And one. of the men in particular. described going to bed and hearing the.

rattle of handcuffs, the voices of. Salvadoran officials, and the clang. of [music] his cell door. >> Well, Julie, thank you very much. We. appreciate it. >> Thanks, Michael. >> [music].

>> We'll be right back. [music]. [music] Here's. [music]. what else you need to know today. Since. this policy has started, we've gone from. 20,000 cases of acute hepatitis B down.

to 20 per year. Isn't that amazing? 20,000 to 20. [music] On Sunday, the. Republican chairman of the Senate Health. Committee, Bill Cassidy, recommended. that parents [music] vaccinate their. newborn babies against hepatitis B. Despite a controversial vote on Friday. by a federal panel to end that decadesl. long recommendation, Cassidy [music]. said that the government's original. recommendation dating back to 1991. [music] had prevented thousands of.

infections and warned that babies who do. become infected with hepatitis B [music]. are at much higher risk of long-term. health problems. of those who are. infected at birth, 95% of them become. chronic carriers. [music] So what does. it mean to be a chronic carrier? It. means that you're at risk for endstage. liver disease, for liver cancer, for. [music] infecting other people. But if. you vaccinate at birth, that never. happens. And [music] later today, the Supreme.

Court will hear arguments in a major. test of President Trump's power. The. case revolves around the question of. whether Trump [music] can fire a. Democratic member of the Federal Trade. Commission, an independent agency, simply because she is not aligned with. his political agenda. An existing. [music] law says that the president can. only remove commissioners for wrongdoing. or for neglecting their [music] duties. A ruling in Trump's favor would overturn. 90 years of [music] legal precedent.

Today's episode was [music] produced by. Carlos Prito and Michael Simon Johnson. with help from Eric KKY. It was edited. by Patricia Willins with [music] help. from Lexi Dial. Contains music by Diane. Wong, Marian Lozano, and Dan [music]. Powell, and was engineered by Chris. Wood. Special thanks to TBI Romero, Sheila. Ordinetta, Issa Yen [music] Herrera, and.

Adriana Lorero Fernandez. [music]. [music] That's it for the Daily. I'm. Michael Bavaro. See you tomorrow.