Trump’s Showdown With the Courts

from The New York Times I'm Rachel. Abrams this is the. [Music]. daily yesterday the showdown between. President Trump and the courts reached a. new Milestone when Trump called for a. federal judge to be impeached and in. response the Chief Justice of the. Supreme Court publicly scolded the. president for attacking a member of the. bench today.

I spoke to my colleague Luke Broadwater. about the deportation case at the center. of The Showdown and whether the. Constitutional crisis that many have. feared is now actually. here it's Wednesday March. [Music]. 19th Luke hi thank you so much for being. here hi thanks for having me so Luke. every day since Trump came into office. it has really felt like the new. administr has done something to make.

people who know about the law and the. Constitution really nervous that we are. headed towards some kind of a crisis. that there's going to be some kind of a. showdown between the president and the. courts unlike anything we've ever seen. before but so far largely all of those. fears all of that conjecture has been. pretty theoretical except in the last. few days in the last few days it feels. like something has changed and maybe the. crisis is actually.

arrived you're right there's been a lot. of concern since the start of the. trouble Administration about what would. happen when or if the president began to. disregard judicial rulings and I would. say this weekend was the starkest. example to date of the president pushing. the boundaries against the federal. Judiciary and we saw the executive. branch battling it out in court with the.

Judiciary and it's really reached a. fever pitch here in Washington and it. all concerns the deportation of about. 200 migrants from Venezuela to El. Salvador okay so I want to walk through. how we got to this point so tell us the. basics of this deportation case that you. just mentioned that have led us to this. moment well for a long time the Trump. Administration has wanted to.

Deport people from the country. faster and more aggressively than what. was happening under the Biden. Administration and the Trump. Administration has succeeded in doing. that to a large extent but it's not been. fast enough for what president Trump and. his top allies want to see so they have. been sort of combing through old laws. old statutes to try to figure out out.

how they can get more people out of the. country as quickly as possible without. so many judges and reviews and hearings. standing in their way and so on Friday. the president takes an extraordinary. step he signs an executive order in. which he invokes wartime powers from the. 1700s called the alien enemies act which. is really supposed to apply to a time of.

War mhm he claims the United States is. being invaded and the order targets a. criminal gang from Venezuela and using. this Authority he argues he is able to. bypass the normal system of judicial. review and Deport hundreds of. migrants to holding cells in El Salvador. so it sounds like there are actually two. things that are sort of unusual just.

right off the bat one is that the United. States is deporting these people to a. country that they are not from and the. second thing that's unusual is that he's. relying on this law that is not. typically or maybe ever used for. deportations that's absolutely right. what's happened here is the United. States has struck a deal with the. government of El Salvador to ship. migrants that the United States doesn't. want in the country to El Salvador to.

jail cells there that is an. extraordinary step and then on top of. that it isn't announced the order is. kept under ws and so the Trump. Administration can begin setting the. wheels in motion to start these. deportations without people really. knowing about it now this is where. things get interesting the ACLU caught. wind that the administration was.

planning to do this executive order and. they file a preemptive lawsuit to try to. block it they are able to file it on. behalf of five migrants who would be. subject to. deportation and that sets in motion. what's essentially a weekend long Sprint. between the administration and the ACLU. with both sides trying to race to either. Deport these people or block the. deportations. [Music].

and Luke what exactly is the ACLU. arguing here well they're arguing one. that the president cannot invoke these. wartime Powers because the country is. not at war with Venezuela right but more. fundamentally it's that everybody in. America is supposed to get due process. that we don't actually know whether or. not these men who are being held in. these detention facilities are the.

hardened criminals the Trump. Administration says they are if they. haven't had a hearing before a judge we. have lawyers and family members of some. of these people who say they are not. gang members and so how can the. administration be sure how can the. American public be sure that the. allegations against them are in fact. true so without a hearing without due. process that becomes a fundamental. violation of really core americ.

principles and so that's the larger. issue at stake here is will the judge. allow these expedited deportations to. take place under the guise that this is. an act of war or will he enforce the. existing immigration laws so what. happens with this court case so as I. said it's a bit of a rush the judge. James bosberg on Saturday night after. the lawsuit is filed said up a hearing.

for the afternoon before that hearing. can take place the Trump. Administration quickly starts to deport. people from jail cells in Texas they. line up Vans they take people to the. airport they start putting people on. planes headed first for Honduras and. then ultimately for El. Salvador and.

as the hearing gets underway it's very. clear right away that the judge has big. concerns about what the administration. is doing and starts to side with the. ACLU he starts to agree that there. should be a halt on these. deportations and at one point he. specifically orders the lawyers for the. government to tell their clients who are. the Trump Administration and Ice to turn. the planes around.

and get them back onto American soil so. that these people can have a fair. hearing and the judge says that the. government has to comply with this order. immediately and did they well the planes. do not turn around and we know this. because the next morning the president. of El. Salvador celebrates the arrival of these. deportation flights into his country and. sort of mock the judge's order he posts.

a link to an article about the planes. being ordered to turn around and writes. oopsy too late with a laugh crying emoji. and. then posts sort of dramatic. video shot in this very cinematic style. in which there's this tremendous show of. force where you have men with guns and. Military fatigues taking these detainees.

off the American planes and into prisons. in El Salvador and their frog marching. them down the. steps and it all looks very tough on. crime and clearly meant to send a. message that this is a major operation. that this President is aggressive and. tough on criminals.

and it's even retweeted by Secretary of. State Marco Rubio and so it all feels. like Rubio and the president of El. Salvador are basically saying we saw the. judge's order but we're not going to. follow. [Music]. it so this all feels. intentional but there's still an open.

question as to whether the United States. government specifically defied the. judge's. order and that is the question the judge. has on his mind when he summons the. Trump Administration back into court on. Monday to answer the question of whether. they knowingly and intentionally. disobeyed a court order. [Music].

[Music]. we'll be right. [Music]. back so Luke what happens once the judge. hauls the doj lawyers into his court on. Monday to EXP explain whether or not.

they defied his order so this is a major. hearing and all of Washington is. awaiting what the Trump Administration. will say it seems pretty clear that the. administration did not listen to the. judge's order when he told them to turn. around mid-flight because those flights. we now know have landed in El Salvador. and so a lot of us were wondering will. the Trump Administration apologize will. they say we got it wrong we miss. something understood will they openly.

defy the judge and say you have no power. over us and what actually happens is the. Trump. Administration attempts to argue that. they technically did comply with the. judge's order huh how so yes the judge. told them to turn the planes around. mid-flight but they come up with the. argument that he said that from the. bench that that was a verbal order and. 40 minutes later he put out a very brief.

written order that didn't say turn the. planes around it it just sided with the. ACLU and so they technically didn't. disobey the written order the planes. were already in the air they were over. international waters they argue and so. maybe it wasn't a violation of the. judge's order these are the arguments. the Trump Administration puts forth. right I'm not a lawyer but the idea that. you'd tell a judge like well you didn't.

write that down so we don't have to. follow it feels tenuous almost every. legal expert I talked to said the same. thing and in fact the judge also wasn't. really buying it he from the bench. called it a heck of a stretch and what. about the second part of the argument. that the planes were already in the air. like I mean planes can be turned around. obviously like what does that have to do. with it right the Trump Administration. is arguing that I guess the judge's. jurisdiction doesn't extend beyond.

American soil and so once the planes got. out of American Air space that they were. no longer subject to the order again. every legal expert I talk to says that. the judges orders apply to the American. government and the government has to. follow them and so if he ordered the. plane to turn around they should have. immediately gotten that message to the. Personnel on the plane and turn those. planes around but this is the argument.

the Trump Administration is making and. the judge has not yet ruled on that. whether or not they're correct or. incorrect so you know despite what legal. experts are saying it's still is an open. matter before this judge okay but let's. just assume for the sake of argument. that they are correct that there is a. jurisdiction issue here do we know if. it's true that the planes were actually. gone by the time the written ruling was. issued well we spent a lot of time.

researching this looking at flight logs. and determining exactly when these. planes took off from Texas where they. went when they landed there and we can. say pretty definitively that two of the. planes were in fact in the air before. both the verbal order and the written. order but there's a third plane and that. plane does not leave Texas does not. leave the ground of America until after.

the judge's written order is posted. online okay so one of the three planes. You could argue should have been made. aware of that order and stayed. grounded well at first glance it seems. like that but the Trump Administration. argues this third plane is not subject. to the judge's order and they say that. they specifically put migrants on that. plane who they were deporting for.

reasons that were not solely related to. these wartime powers that were invoked. by President Trump they're saying that. those migrants on the third plane did in. fact have due process and so yes they. left after the judge's order but ice. went through determined that they could. still be deported even with the judge's. order haing the flights so they're. arguing that this third flight. technically is not covered by the.

judge's order and therefore did not. violate it so does the judge buy that so. the judge is frustrated that there isn't. more information provided and he demands. the government present a sworn statement. attesting that they in fact didn't put. anyone on this third plane who was being. deported under Donald Trump's New Order. and the government does on Tuesday. issue a sworn statement attesting that.

they didn't violate the order with this. third plane but they do not go along. with the other part of the judge's order. which is the judge wanted a lot more. details about who these people were on. the plane under what authorities they. are being removed the judge even offered. to say well we can do it in closed. hearing we can go to a secure place if. you have security concerns. and in the government's filing on.

Tuesday they essentially told him to. pound sand that they didn't have to give. him any more. information and they argue that. essentially he's going to have to take. their word for it that they did. everything legally right the screw you. was. silent yeah I mean that's that's one way. to read it certainly meanwhile there's a. bit of dual messaging going on you know. while in court the administration is.

saying they complied with the judge's. order outside of Court different members. of the administration are sending an. entirely different message so Tom this. is a promise made a promise kept but it. looks like a judge is trying to stop. this why I don't know why I don't know. why any judge would would want. terrorists return to the United States. Tom hman who's known as Donald Trump's. borders are goes from Fox News and we're.

going to make this country safe again. I'm proud to be a part of this. Administration we're not stopping I. don't care what the judges think I don't. care the left things we coming and he. says I don't care what the judge has to. say and then Donald Trump himself begins. to rail against this judge president. Trump posted on social media calling for. the judge to be impeached saying he's. radical left lunatic a troublemaker and. agitator and demand that he be impeached. wow so they're really digging in here.

absolutely and now politically there is. an advantage here to the Trump. Administration explain that you have a. president who has sworn to get tough on. the border and get tough on crime. expelling from the United States by his. description hundreds of criminal gang. members and so that's a easy narrative. to understand you know who in the world. wouldn't want a bunch of criminal gang. members kicked out of the country and.

what kind of crazy liberal judge would. order those gang members back into. America and if you watch conservative. media that's the argument they're. putting out you know this judge wants. these gang members roaming around the. streets attacking your family and loved. ones you know obviously this is terrain. the TR Administration chose carefully to. fight on and they believe in the Court. of public opinion most people will be on.

their side of this issue right if you. think about it it's actually the perfect. case for them because what better way is. there to test the limits of the law. other than on a case that will not. engender a lot of sympathy that's the. challenge for the opponents of what. Donald Trump is doing but you know who. is paying very close attention to this. case the Chief Justice of the United. States Supreme Court John Roberts and he. on.

Tuesday takes a very rare step and that. is he issues a rare public statement. pushing back against the attacks on this. judge and says for more than two. centuries it has been established that. impeachment is not an appropriate. response to a disagreement concerning a. Judicial decision so he is very much. sticking up for this Judge James bosberg. and he is saying.

essentially call off your dogs Mr. President it's not your place to attack. our judges you should abide by the court. rulings and not start open Warfare. against a member of the Judiciary so. what do you make of that because correct. me if I'm wrong but the Supreme Court. doesn't actually get a say in whether a. judge is impeached right like that's. congress's Authority oh no absolutely. not it's up to Congress to impeach and. convict and remove anyone in the federal. government including judges but what.

Chief Justice John Roberts is doing here. is he is using his stature and his. standing as an. institutionalist to try to get people. away from these political impeachments. and revenge against enemies and bring. the country back to respect for the rule. of law respect for the courts and. respect for the Judiciary back to its. founding principles okay all of that. makes a lot of sense but do we think.

that Trump actually cares about any of. that well Donald Trump and his. administration have attempted time and. time again to expand the powers of the. executive branch and so whether it's. this case or some other one there will. be another day when Donald Trump's. Administration is before The Supreme. Court attempting to win a court case. about its own power and I think at that. point in time he's going to have to care. a lot about what John Roberts thinks.

Luke I know we say this a lot in our. business journalism especially you know. these days but this really feels like. unfamiliar territory like it does not. feel like we have gotten this close to. the precipice of a constitutional crisis. a showdown between judges and the. president so I just can we play this out. a little bit more to the possible. conclusions here like like what if the. judge tells the government you did defy. my order you are in violation what.

happens after that sure well if if the. judge decides that then he could issue. penalties against the administration he. could order them to try to undo some of. the things they've done you could even. see a scenario where he tried to order. them to bring back the migrants from El. Salvador and see how they would respond. to those statements but I think the. bigger. picture you're getting at here is this.

may have been one of the biggest. examples of the Trump Administration. defying a judge's order and yes they. sort of did it with legalistic language. and they came up with arguments to. ignore the order to turn the planes. around but they did it anyway and what. happens if they eventually stop coming.

up with the legalistic arguments and. they just start defying judges orders. and they keep doing it and by the way. this is not the only case where a judge. is telling the Trump Administration they. have to Halt or stop or change some of. the very rapid overhauls they are making. of the federal government by my count. there's at least 15 orders from federal. judges that have blocked major actions.

by the Trump. Administration those orders span all. sorts of actions freezing foreign aid. declaring Birthright citizenship illegal. so there's no shortage of dramatic. actions the Trump. Administration is taking but at many. steps the only people that have been. stepping up and successful at all in. stopping some of these things have been. federal judges and if the Trump.

Administration defies any of those. orders who would even enforce that well. that's the Constitutional crisis that. all these legal Scholars keep talking. about the courts themselves don't have a. military they don't have a police force. they are relyant on the executive branch. to enforce their orders the justice. department reports to Donald Trump M and. the president under his new leadership.

team has taken multiple steps to remove. the Justice Department's Independence. and to make sure that it would be his. justice department and not an. independent wing of government and so. what happens if a court orders the. justice department to carry out some. sort of order or discipline against the. executive branch and they decide not to.

follow it well now the courts don't have. any enforcement power and that is the. Constitutional crisis yeah but what are. the chances that Trump's justice. department would enforce an order. against its own. Administration right under past. administrations you wouldn't think twice. about that you would think of course. they would but if there's a pattern. developing where judges orders are. ignored well now that becomes a real. open question so is there any other.

recourse here like would it just be what. Congress impeaching the president yeah I. mean in the current political. environment there is essentially no. chance of the Republican House and. Senate impeaching and convicting Donald. Trump right that might have been. possible under earlier iterations of the. American government you know it. certainly was possible a few decades ago. when Congress was about to impeach. Richard.

Nixon but Donald Trump has completely. co-opted the republicans in Congress. there is no Independence there anymore. there is no appetite to stand up to him. on any measure and so if you are looking. for a check on President trump it will. not come from Congress and the last. place it can come from is the federal. courts and so that's why so many people. are watching this case and trying to.

figure out what exactly will happen if. the Trump Administration in fact defies. a court order and just to take this a. step further in the scenario that you. just laid out the president could. basically do whatever he wants in. defiance of the courts no accountability. from Congress and that whole situation. flies in the face of the checks and. balances that are the Bedrock of. democracy in this country so I just sort. of wonder if what you just explained.

happens can we still call ourselves a. democracy if all of the powers are. Consolidated under the. president well the American system of. government our democracy is set up to. have three co-equal. branches and if two of the branches have. become. subservient to the executive. branch well then I do think you really. need to question. whether we are in fact the kind of.

democracy the kind of government that. our Founders. [Music]. [Music]. intended Luke thank you very much thank. you.

[Music]. on Tuesday a house Republican took. Trump's threat of impeaching the federal. judge overseeing the Venezuelan. immigration case even further by. introducing articles of impeachment. against him the Republican Texas. representative Brandon Gil said that the. judge's ruling had quote usurped the. executive's Constitutional. Authority so far five House Republicans. have signed on as. [Music].

co-sponsors we'll be right. [Music]. back here's what else you need to know. today in a 2 and 1 half hour phone call. on Tuesday with President Trump Russian. President Vladimir Putin agreed to a. limited ceasefire that would stop. strikes on Ukraine's energy. infrastructure but stop short of. agreeing to the broader month-long Halt.

and fighting that the US and Ukraine had. wanted while the deal marks the first. time that both sides agreed to suspend. some kind of attacks in the three-year. War Russia will continue its assault on. Ukrainian civilians cities and. ports and a federal judge ruled that. Elon Musk and his team at the department. of government efficiency likely violated. the Constitution when they helped to. close. usaid the ruling appears to be the first. time that a judge has moved to reign in. musk's power and it was based on the.

finding that the tech billionaire was. acting as a federal employee without. being properly appointed as one by. President. [Music]. Trump today's episode was produced by. Michael Simon Johnson Shannon Lynn and. Jessica Chung it was edited by Maria. burn and Paige cowt contains original. music by Rowan nisto Dan Powell and. Maran Lozano and was engineered by Chris. Wood our theme music is by Jim brunberg.

and Ben lansburg of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Rachel Abrams see you tomorrow. [Music].