Trump’s Escalating War With Higher Education

From the New York Times, I'm Rachel. Abrams. This is the. [Music]. daily. In recent weeks, the Trump. administration has put the American. university system on notice. It's. pressed for changes, launched. investigations, and in some cases, it's. even withheld critical funds. Today, my colleague Alan Blinder on how. schools are responding to all of this.

pressure and what it might mean for the. future of higher. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. education. It's Monday, March 24th. [Music]. Ellen, thank you so much for being with. us. I am not surprised given the news. cycle recently and how much we've been.

hearing about universities that you're. working on a Sunday. My pleasure. It. really feels like we cannot go more than. a few days without hearing about this. escalating conflict between the Trump. administration and the country's. colleges and universities. And you, Alan, have been covering higher. education for a really long time. So, we. thought you'd be the right person to sit. down with so that you could kind of. break all of this down for us. But I. think the first thing I want to do is. just get a sense from you of whether. you've ever seen anything like this.

showdown that we are currently seeing. between the higher education in this. country and the White House. I haven't seen anything like it. But. more to the point, a lot of the sources. I talked to, a lot of presidents and. chancellors and provost, people who have. been in and around higher education for. decades, haven't seen anything like it. either. They're almost shell shocked. about what's happening. It's been this. wave of campaigns against higher. education. It's been this wave of.

complicating factors that may or may not. have to do with universities themselves. M and in the end you've got this real. mess for higher education at this point. that has left a lot of the country's. most elite universities but also schools. that are less prominent on defense. And. within all of that, it feels like your. reporting has really focused on Colombia. University for good reason. Colombia has. been a poster child for a lot of this. conflict and a little bit of a case.

study, right? Yeah, I think that's. right. I mean, look, it's been a very. long year and a half or so for a lot of. higher education, but you will not find. many universities in this country that. have had a longer year and a half than. Colombia. It has absolutely morphed into. being a poster child for crackdowns and. protests and really bitter disputes. about what a university can and should. be. And that's really been coming home. to roost these last couple weeks. Let's.

dive into Colombia a little bit more. Can you just walk us through what's been. happening there? Well, Colombia has. really been one of the biggest hubs of. campus protest since the war in Gaza. erupted and since the Hamas attack on. Israel in October of 23. Colombia had. one of the most prolific encampments. last spring. Its university president at. the time went to Capitol Hill, had a. pretty roundly criticized appearance. there. And what was interesting about. Colombia is that a lot of people thought. the university was getting it wrong. It.

wasn't just one side of the other that. thought the university was blowing it. And so as time has gone on, Colombia has. really been, you know, a synonym for. college chaos essentially over the last. year and a half. Right. And that chaos. has caused a lot of people on all sides. to say that the university, as you put. it, is blowing it. Can you just describe. a little bit what do they mean by. blowing it exactly? Well, the left felt that Colombia was. essentially becoming a police state and.

that it was being far too aggressive in. tamping down on protest, on looking to. restrict academic freedom. They they. essentially saw a university that was. crumpling under pressure from the. right-wing. The right had plenty of. complaints of its own. The right was. mostly concerned that Colombia had. descended into, you know, becoming this. hot house of anti-semitism, that it had. allowed campus protest to just run a muk. and make one of the country's most.

prominent universities this kind of. lawless environment. And that has been a. drum that Republicans have been beating. at this point for many, many months. And. it's one President Trump and his allies. were happy to jump on during the. campaign and then as soon as they. returned to power in January. And when. they returned to power, what were they. saying about universities? It's very. clear from the get-go that rooting out. anti-semitism on campuses is now going. to go from being a campaign talking. point to a real focus of the federal.

government. So we start seeing executive. orders and decisions that really start. to shape how this is all going to play. out. One of the most important things we. saw was this idea that the Department of. Justice was started investigating and. visiting 10 universities that they saw. as really having a lot of problems with. anti-semitism in their view. Colombia. was on the list. And what are these. investigations? Tell us about those. Well, they got a whole range of.

investigations. There's this Department. of Justice investigation that looks at. whether Colombia and other schools were. essentially allowing anti-semitism to. take hold and it was unlawful. discrimination. You've got an. investigation from the Department of. Education's Office of Civil Rights. that's looking at the same types of. things. You've got, you know, investigators from like the Department. of Health and Human Services talking. about universities and it's coming from. everywhere. Yeah. I mean, they are. covering the waterfront on just about. everything you can imagine. and Colombia.

was an easy target. So these. investigations tend to take a very long. time, but it becomes very clear very. quickly that the federal government's. going to be moving at really warp speed. when it comes to these universities. And. on March 7th, the government tells. Colombia that it's going to withhold. about $400 million in grants and. contracts to the university. [Music]. $400 million sounds like a ton of money,

but how much does that actually matter. for Colombia, which is obviously an. enormous institution? So, a $400 million cut would be a lot at. any college or university in this. country, but Colombia, to put it in. perspective, has like $6.6 billion in. annual revenues, and government grants. and contracts make up about 20% of its. revenue. So when the word came down from. Washington about this $400 million cut, Colombia's interim president, she's a.

doctor named Katrina Armstrong, she said. a cut of this size would be felt pretty. much all over the campus. It wouldn't. just be, you know, in one lab or one. academic department or the hospital. It. was the kind of cut that was just going. to shake the campus really to its core. So what's Colombia supposed to do about. this then? What can it even do? Well, that's an interesting question, but they got something of an answer a. few days later when the federal. government sent another letter to. Colombia. And this letter essentially.

was a ransom note, as some people have. put it. It was a letter that spelled out. a list of demands for Colombia to meet. if it wanted to start a conversation. with the federal government about. restoring that 400 million in funding. And what were those demands? Well, the demands kind of ran the gamut. They were everything from having the. university adopt a formal definition of. anti-semitism. There was a push to ban. masks on campus because a lot of.

protesters on campuses have been. covering their faces. There was a call. to really review the admissions process. to overhaul the disciplinary system to. empower campus security officers with. arrest powers. And then there was this. idea that they should put Colombia's. Middle Eastern, South Asian, and African. studies department under what the. government described as academic. receiverhip. Okay. So, some of the. things that you outlined sound very. extreme and some may be less so based on. my limited knowledge of how universities.

operate. How do we interpret some of. these demands? Some of them were, as you. said, kind of mainstream, if you will. I. mean, like the mask ban proposal was. pretty well in line with what the. University of California system has. done. So, that wasn't seen as this. totally off-the-wall demand. The idea. that you would have security officers. with arrest powers, a lot of campus. police departments around the country. have arrest powers. It's a somewhat. loaded question at a school like. Colombia, which has a long history of.

campus protest and a complicated history. with the police, right? Well, the one. that really got the biggest attention. was this idea of academic receiverhip. that really set off alarm bells all over. the campus and all over academia. H why. is that? The reason is because. historically universities especially. private ones have near absolute control. over what they're teaching and how. they're running their academic. departments. So the idea that the.

federal government would directly or. indirectly dictate to a university what. its curriculum and teaching should look. like, that was a red flag. And one thing. to remember though is that this letter. to Colombia did not arrive in a vacuum. This has been months and months of. scrutiny on Colombia that's been. building. And then these last few weeks, you've even had immigrations and customs. enforcement officers on campus. You've. had a green card holder, Makmoud Khalil,

detained because of his his protest. activities. There's been this threat and. this implied threat of deporting. students and pulling visas and it's. really created this challenging. environment where Colombia has felt. besieged really in every way you could. imagine. Okay. So, obviously Colombia is. under a ton of pressure and I would. imagine that there was also a lot of. pressure from people who did not want. the school to cave to the.

administration's demands. Oh, there was. so much pressure even among people who. were frustrated by Colombia over the. last year, year and a half. There was. fear that Colombia was going to cave to. these demands. The idea that Trump. administration could effectively bully a. university into doing something was. really alarming to people. And there was. this really swelling fear and. frustration as Colombia deliberated over.

what to do. And on Friday afternoon, we. got our answer when Colombia's interim. president released a letter and it. basically said the university was bowing. to the government's demands. Wow. So, what do you make of the fact that they. just kind of caved to everything? Well, Colombia never in its announcement. really talked about the 400 million in. funding. They never made this explicit. connection, but I think the. administration at Colombia felt like it. had very little choice in the matter. You know, they could have litigated.

this. There were people who were saying. you should go to court, challenge the. administration, make them prove their. case, and Colombia made the calculation. that it would agree. Now, some of these. things were ideas that Colombia had. already been kicking around before the. administration sent the letter, but the. optics were really bad here. I mean, they were essentially saying, "We're. going to do it in response to a letter. from the federal government." Right. It. seems like number one, the. administration had Colombia over a. barrel from the way that you're. describing it. And number two, that they.

just decided like it is not worth. fighting the government. There was a calculation that was made. that they either could not win this. fight, would not win this fight, or it. would get worse if they did try to fight. it. And they came down on the side of. seeking to settle. But here's the kicker. of all this. This is the rub. By. agreeing to all these concessions, Colombia did not automatically reopen. the spigot of $400 million. That $400. million does not just automatically.

return. These concessions that Colombia. made were essentially their effort to. get the government to come to the. negotiating table to talk about. restoring that 400 million. It wasn't. even like do all of this and you'll get. your money back. It was do all of this. and maybe we'll talk to you about. getting your money back. That's exactly. right. So if Colombia gets the money. back, there's likely to be a bigger cost. than what's already been announced. Right. and that bigger cost. I mean, we've been focusing a lot on Colombia, but there are other schools that the.

administration has said that it's. targeting, right? Like, it feels like we. should be prepared to see these hard. ball tactics elsewhere soon. You should. absolutely be prepared to see those hard. ball tactics. I mean, you've got dozens. of universities in the first two months. of the Trump administration that have. been told they are facing an. investigation by at least one agency of. the federal government. And they're not. even all like Harvard and Colombia. Ohio. State University is on the list. The.

University of Hawaii is on the. list. It's fair to say that the. administration seems to be embarking on. a coast to coast campaign against higher. [Music]. education. We'll be right back. [Music]. So Alan, before the break, you told us.

about some of the fear that these. threats and these demands are instilling. at not just Colombia, but more broadly. at universities around the country. So. can you just tell us a little bit more. about what you're hearing about that? Well, remember it's not just a matter of. will the administration come after my. particular university. that's driving. college presidents nuts right now. The. administration is looking at all kinds. of budget cuts that could broadly affect. higher education. So, one of the things.

we've been seeing the last few weeks is. more hiring freezes. We've seen the. layoffs. We've seen schools shutting. down laboratories because they're. starting to lose grant funding or. they're fearing, you know, what's coming. next. Colombia is among the most. powerful universities in the United. States, one of the oldest, one of the. richest. And one of the biggest fears. has been that if Colombia University. cannot stand up to the federal. government for whatever reason, what are. other universities supposed to do? But.

just to play devil's advocate for a. second here, I think a lot of people. listening to this are going to think to. themselves, well, why should. universities get so much money from the. federal government, especially the. universities that are pretty rich to. begin with? So can you just explain to. us like why are these two institutions. the federal government and higher. education why are they so intertwined to. begin with? So this country has had. higher education since before the. signing of the Declaration of. Independence. But it wasn't until the. late 19th century when John's Hopkins. University was founded as the nation's.

first research university when you. started to see a much more explicit. focus on research. That took a little. while to take root. But around World War. II is when the universities and the. federal government really got to work. with each. other. The country had a lot of wartime. needs. They needed big ideas and. innovation. They needed interpreters and. translators for these kind of esoteric. languages. And those were the kind of. people you could find at universities.

And it created this. relationship. The idea was that the. universities would get this research. funding. It would fuel their labs. It. would fuel the scientist. And then that. research would flow into corporate. America. It would flow into other parts. of the government, other parts of. academia. And the result was the country. got new pharmaceutical drugs, new. technology, Nobel prize winners come out. of university labs in a lot of cases. doing federally funded research. Now.

it's tens of billions of dollars a year. that flow from the federal government. down to the universities. [Music]. And just to be clear, when we're talking. about federal money, we're not just. talking about Colombia and the Ivy. Leagues, right? Like, can you just give. us a sense how dependent are. universities across the board on federal. money? Oh, I mean, you have billions and. billions of dollars that flow to.

campuses all over the country. You know, you've got the University of Georgia, which, for example, was getting federal. funding for a lab that focused on. peanuts. You know, Illinois, they get. money for insulin research. You've had. all this money flowing to public. universities, private universities, red. states, blue states, you know, large, small. Just about every college or. university in this country has some kind. of financial tie to the federal. government. Some of them have much. larger financial ties than others. But.

when you start talking about cutting. research funding, the trickle down. effect is enormous. It's not just. cutting off Harvard and Yale and the. like. It's cutting off potentially state. universities near you. That makes sense. But since you mentioned Harvard and. Yale, those schools along with Colombia. and Penn and other places are schools. that have literally billions of dollars. in endowments. And so it feels. reasonable to say, okay, for those.

schools that are sitting on top of these. giant piles of money, they should be. able to use their big endowments to pay. for their day-to-day operations. They. should not need to rely on the federal. government. Absolutely. But one thing to. know about endowments is they tend to. have a lot of what are called restricted. funds, which really limit what the money. can be used for. So for example, you. Rachel Abrams might have donated money. to a university for a specific topic, a. specific job, a specific research. project, whatever it might be. That.

money cannot just be used for another. project. Because they suddenly need the. money, right? You can't just go to the. bank and say, "I have something I want. to research. Give me $100 million, please." Yeah. I mean, it's not just. like going to the ATM. And not only are. university officials really handcuffed. on what they can do with their. endowments, there's actually a push. among some Republicans in Washington to. tax the biggest endowments at even. higher levels. So that happens, there. will be even less money for them to be. able to spend on things like research.

and the like. Mhm. So when you put all. this together, the punitive threats to. withhold funding, the broader budget. cuts that we're seeing in the name of. government efficiency, possible changes. to the tax structure for endowments, what we're seeing is potentially a. really dramatic realignment of the. relationship between the federal. government and universities in this. country. And what does that new. realignment look like and what is. driving it? Well, look, there have been frustrations. building with higher education for years.

and actually decades in this country. There's been this idea that they're for. the elite, they build the elite, they're. too expensive, what is even the point of. a college degree? And you've had this. emerging tension between what. universities think they should be and. what other people in this country think. they should be. You're basically saying. that there are two competing visions. And I'm kind of wondering what the. divide is here because you had mentioned. at one point that some of this tension. is ideological. So is there for example.

a vision that is coming from the left? Well, I don't think it's just the left. I think universities, especially the big. research schools, have really assertive. visions for their role in a modern. society. They want to be places where. they're really, you know, training the. great thinkers of of the day, talking. about the big debates. They're doing. research that changes the world. There. is independence. They're extending their. missions well beyond their campuses.

That's their vision. Now, there's. another school of thought. Some of it is. politically motivated. That these. schools should not be what they are. They should be places where teaching is. the focus, where workforce development. is the goal, where you should come out. of college with a degree that prepares. you for the quote unquote real world. Mhm. You this school of thought is very. stringent on the idea that they don't. want universities and colleges to be, you know, ideology factories. If you.

think through the the list of. complaints, it's that there's been. affirmative action on campuses over the. years. It's that the people up in. academia just sneer at the rest of the. world. They don't really want as many, I. guess, abstract outcomes. They want. concrete things, you know, where you can. take a degree and go do X, Y, or Z. Now, this is not a new argument, but the. reality is that universities have done a. generally terrible job of making the. case for themselves. And why is that.

exactly? You can probably blame it on a. lot of different things. Sometimes when. they're talking about their research, they go so deep in the weeds, no one. understands what the research is about. or what it's going to do. They've done a. pretty terrible job of explaining how. tuition costs work and how financial aid. works. I mean, I don't know if the last. time you looked at like a financial aid. application or a scholarship listing. It's this muck. It's gobbledygook. Yeah. I mean, look, there's a whole body of. research out there that says if you're a. college graduate, you are likely to have.

higher lifetime incomes, less likely to. be in poverty. The outcomes tend to be. pretty good. But what they haven't done. a good job of is explaining that. For. whatever reason, they cannot muster much. of a coherent defense. I do wonder if. one of the reasons that universities are. struggling to make a case for themselves. is that they do need to be reformed. Like any major institution with a. multi-billion dollar budget probably. does have some bloat and inefficiencies. here and there, but this conversation.

does feel connected to wider. conversations we've been having recently. on the show about government efficiency, like cutting federal agencies for. example. Like sure these places could. probably be run better, but is it. necessary to just gut them wholesale? Yeah. I mean, look, I would be. hardpressed to name a college president. who does not think there need to be. changes somewhere in the system. But I. think they are worried about the. proverbial throwing out the baby with.

the bathwater here. They will. acknowledge for all the flaws of. universities, and they will often admit. there are flaws. Mhm. that the system is. too much the envy of the world to just. trash. You know, it really feels like we. are in a moment where the kind of. existential fear that you described, it's allowing the Trump administration. to ring some pretty stunning concessions. from institutions that traditionally. have prided themselves on their.

independence. And I wonder how the. people that you are talking to within. academia are viewing what's happening to. them within this broader context. Well, there's a long history in the. world of authoritarian regimes trying to. pressure universities and and transform. them. And there are some people in academia. who feel these last few months have been. at least steps.

toward that kind of reality. They see. these steps as out of a strongman. playbook. You know, there there was a. book a couple years ago by the president. of John's Hopkins called What. Universities Ow Democracy. Mhm. And he. talked about in that book how the fate. of universities and liberal democracies. are entwined with one another. So you know there are people in academia. who are giving voice to these types of.

things. There was a statement last week. from a center at Georgetown University. that talked about kind of an encroaching. authoritarianism by the administration. You throwing out words like McCarthyism. We keep hearing that word thrown around. a lot. That kind of, you know, speech. suppressing, speech chilling atmosphere. is what people are trying to compare. this moment. to. On Saturday, I was talking with Mary. Sue Coleman, who is a former president. of the University of Michigan and the.

University of Iowa, and I was asking. her, you know, what do you make of this. decision by Colombia to concede what the. administration wanted? And her answer. was pretty revealing. and she said, "I. was alarmed by it because of what the. ultimate consequences might be for. higher education, but I don't want to. say if I were sitting in their shoes. that I would have made a different. decision because these universities. might have just calculated that it's. just not worth fighting. They don't. stand a chance." I think some. universities may very well decide it's.

an act of survival. And I think one of. the biggest questions that's still out. there is what will the surviving. university look like? Will it be these places where research. has flourished and there's been a lot of. debate or will it be something. different? And I think whatever the. answer is, it's going to shape this. country for a very long time. [Music]. Alan, thank you so much. My pleasure.

We'll be right. back. Here's what else you need to know. today. On Sunday, Canada's new prime. minister, Mark Carney, called for a. national election to take place next. month on April 28th. His Liberal Party. is facing a strong challenge from the. country's Conservatives. And all of this.

comes at a turbulent time as the Trump. administration has imposed punishing. tariffs and threatened the sovereignty. of Canada, its neighbor and longtime. ally. And after weeks of pressure, Venezuela said it would resume accepting. deportation flights from the United. States. This comes after the Trump. administration invoked an obscure. wartime law to deport Venezuelans. accused of gang affiliations to El. Salvador with little or no due process. In a statement this weekend, a.

Venezuelan official said the country. would not rest until we quote, "Rescue. our brothers kidnapped in El. Salvador." Today's episode was produced. by Nina Feldman, Mooch Zadi, and Sydney. Harper. It was edited by Patricia. Willins with help from Ben Calhoun, and. MJ Davis Lynn. Contains original music. by Marann Lozano, Diane Wong, Rowan. Nisto, and Pat McCusker, and was. engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme. music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben.

Lansberg of. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. Wonderly. That's it for the Daily. I'm. Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow. [Music].