Trump Rants: ‘Let Them Go Back to Where They Came From’

From the New York Times, I'm Natalie. Kitrov. This is the Daily. [music]. These aren't people that work. These. aren't people that say, "Let's go. Come. on. [music] Let's make this place. great." These are people that do nothing. but complain. >> During a cabinet meeting on Tuesday, [music]. President Trump delivered perhaps the. most blatantly xenophobic public remarks. of his political career. and we're going. to go the wrong way if we keep taking.

[music] in garbage into our country. >> Attacking Somali Americans in Minnesota. and calling them garbage. >> You know, they came from paradise and. they said this isn't paradise. [music]. But when they come from hell. and they complain and do nothing but. we don't want them in our country. Let. them go back to where they came from and. fix it. Today, [music] my colleague Ernesto.

Londano on the story of how Somali. became the [music] president's latest. target in his ongoing effort to reshape. America's relationship [music]. to its immigrant communities. It's Thursday, [music] December 4th. Ernesto, the president's comments about. Somali immigrants this week were, I. think for a lot of us, truly shocking. Even for a president who's known for. making extreme comments about.

immigrants, he called an entire group of. people garbage in a nationally televised. cabinet meeting. You're in Minnesota as. a national correspondent. So tell us, how were these comments received there? >> I think people here have been shell. shocked by the comments. I think they're. not [snorts] surprised that the. president would say things that are. disparaging of the Somali community or. about his immigration philosophy, but I. I do think the tone and tenor of what.

was said at the White House yesterday. struck people here as just beyond the. pale. And it's induced a prevailing. sense of terror among the 80,000 or so. people of Somali ancestry that live in. the state. The vast majority of whom are. American citizens or legal permanent. residents. >> and they're a big part of the fabric of. Minnesota. They're ascendant in. politics. There's many Somali Americans. who are in the state legislature and. hold other local office. They are.

business owners. They work bluecollar. jobs. They work in healthcare and the. idea that overnight their president. refers to them as garbage and says that. he wishes they would just all go home. was truly jarring. >> Tell me about the terror that you. described. What is prompting the fear in. the community specifically? This week we. learned that the Trump administration. has deployed roughly 100 immigration.

agents to come in and apparently look. for Somalis who are subject to. deportation orders. As we understand. that this is a fairly small pool of. people. We're talking about maybe a few. hundred people who have pending asylum. cases or for whatever reason came here. legally but fell out of status because. they may have committed a crime. So. what's happened is there's a sense that. a crackdown on immigration is starting. to take root in Minnesota and that.

businesses and homes may become the. targets of immigration raids. What this. has meant so far is that people are. thinking twice about whether they feel. safe going to work even if they have. legal status and just people kind of. mulling whether they even feel. comfortable going to the grocery store. And the fear is not merely about running. into immigration agents. The fear also. has become that this prevailing toxic.

rhetoric about Somali and Somali culture. has empowered people who are racist to. do and say things that amount to. harassment and hatred. Hm. >> I spoke to a Somali American immigration. lawyer who said he's been flooded with. calls, including from American citizens. who report just being taunted and. harassed on the street. >> You're saying people are seeing this as. potentially giving people permission to. act on their worst instincts. It's a. permission structure.

>> Correct. >> Okay. I want to talk about why this is. happening. why the federal government. has turned its attention to this. community of 80,000 people. In his diet. tribe, Trump hinted at the reason for. the hostility. He said that Somali had. stolen all of this money. This is a. story you've been covering, right? Walk. us through how Somali became the subject. of this vitriolic attack from the. president. Yeah, I think the origin of.

this saga dates back to 2020. And what happened was, you know, during. the early weeks of the pandemic, state. officials were really worried about. whether people were being fed, were. people going to be housed as many lost. their jobs. And as we all sort of. collectively descended into this fearful. moment induced by COVID 19. And there. was one specific program that state. officials were managing to keep. vulnerable kids fed during the pandemic.

[snorts] What happened was that turned. into a magnet for fraudsters who began. registering as meal sites saying that. they were feeding tens of thousands of. children when in reality what they were. doing was submitting bogus invoices and. stealing a staggering amount of money. >> Right. This is something we've known. about, right? This was part of the. widespread fraud that we saw where.

pandemic programs were taken advantage. of. >> That's right. And even in the context of. the stunning amount of money that people. stole during the pandemic, targeting a. wide range of programs, including. business loans and unemployment. benefits. What happened in Minnesota was. unique in just the scale and officials. have described it as the most brazen. case of its kind just by the sheer. number of people involved and the amount. of money that was stolen. >> How far did it actually go? Like what.

are we talking about here in terms of. scale, in terms of scope? >> Well, 78 people have now been charged in. the scheme in federal court. The vast. majority of them are Somali Americans. More than 50 have already been convicted. in these cases. And initially, I think. many local officials were outraged that. this happened, but they essentially said. this probably was a one-off abuse during. the pandemic when there was a real sense. of urgency about getting money to people.

who needed it. >> Mhm. However, in recent years, as prosecutors. dug into court records and as they. started interviewing witnesses, something really jarring came to their. attention. This was not, in fact, a. [music] one-off. What they found was. that networks of people had found. loopholes in other programs that weren't. COVID pandemic era programs, but just.

run-of-the-mill safety net programs. designed to help people at risk of. homelessness, >> kids with autism, and that they were. charging a staggering amount of money. for services that weren't rendered. And. collectively, according to federal. prosecutors, up to $1 billion has been stolen just in. these three schemes. >> Remarkable. >> And what state officials have said was. that fraud essentially became the.

business model and that these people. were acting kind of above board. They. had office space that they leased all. around town. They had websites. They had. business cards. and they were sort of. stealing staggering amounts of money in. plain sight and state officials tasked. with overseeing and supervising these. programs were just paying the invoices. that came in. >> Wow. I spoke to a defense lawyer who has.

represented people involved in some of. these schemes and he said that among the. people who were stealing money over the. years they kind of came to think that it. had become so easy to tap into these. funds and you know get rich fraudulently. that they kind of assumed state. officials were tolerating this if not. outright authorizing it. And the way he. described it was, you know, it was like. people were stealing from the cookie jar. one day and the next morning they had.

refilled it. >> You're saying this went far beyond just. pandemic fraud and that almost everyone. involved in these schemes was Somali. Americans. But if the figures were so. big, how did it go unnoticed? That is a great question that state. officials are really struggling to. answer, but I think it's useful to go. back in time a little bit and kind of. remember the context in which this took.

hold. So, there were red flags that. emerged in 2020 when money was gushing. into this program to feed children. And. when state officials felt overwhelmed by. the sheer number of business owners who. wanted in on the program, who wanted to. be serving meals and be reimbursed for. them, and when they started reviewing. the invoices that were coming to them, they had questions. And those questions. were met with an extraordinary.

accusation. >> which was what. >> the largest group that was organizing. meal providers in this program was. called feeding our future. It was a. nonprofit organization. and in response to questions from state. officials. They essentially said the. state was sloww walking these new. petition for people who wanted in on the. program because they were being racist. against East African immigrants. Hm. >> And I think it's useful to remember what. was happening in the state at the time.

This fight is unfolding as Minnesota is. grappling with the aftermath of the. killing of George Floyd, which of course. set off a national reckoning over race. So in the state at that time, nobody. wanted to be called a racist, even if it. was wholly unfounded. And I think the. consensus now among people who have. watched the sequence of events was that. that really had a paralyzing effect on. people in state government who knew.

something funny was going on but didn't. really want to stick their necks out and. stop it. >> Right. This was happening in a very. particular place at a very particular. time when tensions over race are. extremely high. >> Correct. But I think there's another. layer to this and that is that Somali. Americans have become politically quite. powerful in the state and I think. Democratic lawmakers have seen them as a. really vital constituency and there were.

instances in which the people who were. responsible for some of these fraud. schemes came to state lawmakers and. asked for help, asked for intervention. or became important donors. to their. campaigns. So, I think there is a sense. that beyond the threat of being called. racist, some Democratic elected. officials in the state were just really. worried that any action they took to. question or intervene in a way that.

would maybe stop these schemes could. have alienated a really important. constituency. >> Got it. So, there was a perceived. political risk there. Eventually though, prosecutors do start to go after this, right? So, as the details of this. yearslong billion dollar scandal start. to spill out into the open, do motans. start to reckon with how this threat of. accusing people of racism was used as a. tool to allow this fraud to go on?

>> Well, that certainly caused a huge. amount of outrage in the state, but I. don't think anything necessarily changed. in the immediate aftermath. It was. actually later, it was this year, this. summer, when there was a change of guard. at the local US attorney's office in. Minnesota. And what happened was the. prosecutor who had been leading these. fraud cases, Joe Thompson, became the. acting US attorney. And he took it upon. himself to really turn up the volume on.

the nature and the scope of the problem. He started giving press conferences and. interviews in which it started feeling. like he was doing more than just. indicting individuals who were. committing fraud. He started speaking in. a way that felt like he was indicting. the whole system that had allowed this. to metastasize. And his argument was we. can't indict our way out of this. problem. There's just too many people.

who are stealing. There's too many. programs that are now vulnerable. And. unless and until people in the state. truly start wrestling with what has. taken root and start implementing. stronger safeguards, the state is going. to lose its ability to provide services. to people who actually need them. And in. my interview with him, he for the first. time addressed the racial dimension of. this and said that from his vantage. point, weaponizing allegations of racism.

in Minnesota during the period when this. happened played a big role in inhibiting. a more forceful response from the kind. of people who could have stopped this on. the front end. So it is at this point a. place that's doing some soularching. about what happens when you know it's so. lacks in the enforcement of its own. rules and regulations around these. liberal policies that those policies. start to get taken advantage of and and. potentially end up turning people.

against them. >> Correct. And in recent weeks we start seeing. lawmakers start asking some of the right. questions. we start seeing the governor. implement stronger safeguards to try to. prevent fraud and to detect fraud in. other programs. So, I think we're seeing. kind of the early phases of a. constructive reckoning that people here. were hoping would lead to less fraud. However, once this issue crosses the.

radar of the White House, once it's. something that captures President. Trump's imagination, that reckoning starts to take a very. [music]. different shape. We'll be right back. Ernesto,

you just told us that things on the. ground in Minnesota have taken a very. different turn since Trump started to. focus on this. And I want to understand. that. But first, can we just get to the. question of why Trump decided to seize. on this right now? Because you've. described this scandal that's been. playing out in the background for a. while now, for years, with this steady. drum beat of revelations coming out over. time.

>> Yeah, I think there were a sequence of. events that turned this into a front. burner issue for the White House. The. first one was a report by Chris Rufo, the conservative activist, which created. the inference that some of the money. that had been stolen in these schemes in. Minnesota had wound up in the hands of. terrorists in Africa, namely members of. the group al-Shabaab in Somalia. So, this is a figure who has taken on. universities and has become very.

influential in conservative circles. So. the fact that he drew attention to this. made it land in Washington DC. >> and Rufo here is specifically saying. that this money from the fraud that it. has a link to terrorism. >> That's right. And to be clear, prosecutors have drawn no such link. None of these federal cases have. featured any link whatsoever to. terrorism. But nonetheless, the headline. on this piece was quote, "The largest.

funer of al-Shabaab is the Minnesota. taxpayer.". >> Wow. Okay. So, that got a lot of. attention whether it was true or not. >> That's right. And then a few days later, we published a piece that walked readers. through how fraud got so pervasive in. Minnesota and that examined the role. racism and politics played in allowing. it to metastasize over the years. And. all this was happening at the same time.

as people in the nation's capital were. reeling from that horrific shooting of. two members of the National Guard. The gunman in that case was an Afghan. man who had been admitted in recent. years into the country. And I think that. added an element that the administration. had more political cover to be more. draconian in its immigration crackdown, particularly as it pertained to.

countries that are riven with. instability and conflict. >> Right? This has really become a moment. where the administration has turned its. focus to specific groups of immigrants. from places that, as you said, have a. reputation for instability, for. conflict. And the message the White. House has been sending about these. people is that they're importing. cultures into America that are not. welcome. You know, Steven Miller, Trump's domestic policy adviser, recently posted this on social media. He.

said, quote, "No magic transformation. occurs when people from failed states. cross borders." And then in his comments. on Tuesday, Trump seems to pick up right. where Miller left off. >> That's right. And the desire by. President Trump and people in his circle. to limit immigration from specific. countries dates back to his first term, obviously, and was met with tremendous. push back both from the public and from. the courts. I think now though they may.

feel that they have a little more. leverage to push this through, to get. more people in handcuffs and out of the. country and to close the door to. American immigration based on. nationality. And at that cabinet meeting. on Tuesday, President Trump said the. United States was at a crossroads. >> You know, our country is at a tipping. point. We could go bad. We're at a. tipping point. I don't know if people. mind me saying that, but I'm saying it.

Uh, we could go one way or the other. >> He said that he was fed up with people. coming here from impoverished, conflictridden countries and as he sees. it, leeching off the welfare state. >> The welfare is like 88%. They contribute nothing. I don't want them in our country. I'll. be honest with you. Okay. Somebody would. say, "Oh, that's not politically. correct." I don't care. I don't want. them in our country. Their country is no. good for a reason. Their country stakes.

>> It also just strikes me that this is all. happening, this conversation so much. more out in the open than it was in. Trump's first term. I mean, I think a. lot of us will remember the comment that. Trump made about hole countries. That was behind closed doors. That was a. comment made in private that was later. revealed. Now he's doing this in front. of his cabinet, in front of the cameras. rolling. Yeah, I think there's a sense that in. this current era, they feel emboldened.

to say the quiet part out loud and to. say things that would have been. unimaginable and careerending for. mainstream politicians in the not. [snorts] tooistant past. But all of a. sudden, we are seeing these ideas and. these notions become mainstream policies. and mainstream subjects of debate. And. to be clear, the people that Trump is. talking about here are Somali, most of. whom you've told us have legal status or.

are citizens. So I want to ask given. that, what do you expect the ICE. operations to look like there? I mean, what are they going to do? Who are they. looking for? Yeah, I think this is a. very challenging mission for ICE and I. think it's likely to look very different. from what we've seen earlier this year. in places like Chicago or Los Angeles. You know, for starters, the number of. people who may be subject to deportation.

appears to be pretty small. We may be. talking about just a few hundred people. who may have outstanding deportation. orders and who can sort of be put into. the system. And there's kind of a more. mundane challenge and that is that this. week has been bone chilling in Minnesota. and people are spending as little time. as possible on the streets and agents I. think are facing real pain if they're. out and about knocking on doors, staking.

out businesses and residences. That in. and of itself is going to be a. monumental challenge for ICE. Can we. pull back here for a minute? Because. it's worth saying what we're seeing here. isn't just an immigration operation. Trump's comments and these actions seem. to be just as much about delegitimizing. a group of people who either immigrated. here and became American citizens or. their parents did. The president is.

calling into question their Americanness. and really calling into question whether. your ability as an immigrant or a child. of immigrants to call yourself an. American depends on where you're from. >> Yeah, I think this is a really painful. question that Somali immigrants are now. wrestling with is, you know, what do you. do to prove that you're an American? like to what length do you need to go to. truly feel like you belong and that.

you're part of the fabric of this. nation? We're talking about people in. many cases who were born here and have. known no other homeland. Others arrived. here decades ago and have long. considered themselves patriots who have. been helping build the state, paying. taxes, working in really difficult jobs. So yeah, I think this really leaves. people with unsettling questions about. what they need to do to be brought into.

the fold of this country in this. political era and just how much further. will this crackdown and this cloud of. suspicion reach? What shape could this. take in the months ahead? And I'd. imagine whether their Americanness could. be called into question anytime a single. or a few members of their community make. a mistake. >> Absolutely. You know, we've heard from. local elected officials who say they're. deeply concerned that the stage is set.

for widespread civil rights violations. >> The vast majority of our Somali. community are citizens. So what he who. he just attacked isn't just Somali. Who. he attacked is Somali Americans. who he. attacked as Americans. >> St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter look back. to history. >> I believe that the sacred moments in. American history are the moments we've. had to decide who gets to be included in. the Wii. Do we mean black people? Do we.

mean women? Do we mean immigrants? Who. is a part of the Wii when we say we the. people? And he said we should be. thinking of this moment as one that may. define who we are as Americans and as a. nation. >> And Ernesto, what about the reckoning. that you described happening in. Minnesota around the original scandal. that prompted all of this, the fraud? I. mean, you had said that the state was. really starting to have a conversation.

about how this fear of being perceived. as racist or called racist, the fear of. a backlash had led to this very. well-intentioned system being totally. corrupted. Where does that conversation. stand now? >> Yeah, it's going to be fascinating to. watch how this unfolds in the months. ahead. You know, on the one hand, we're in a. moment where nobody can turn a blind eye. to the fact that fraud is a huge and.

systemic problem for Minnesota. There's. going to be a governor's election next. year. And [music] Tim Walls, who's a. Democrat, could lose that race if. [music] the people who are challenging. him on the right from the Republican. party succeed in making [music] fraud. the defining issue in the race. I think there's broad agreement that you. need systemic change and that you need. strong safeguards. And I think also.

we're starting to see a reckoning among. people in the Somali community about the. fact that this is a big problem and has. created a significant perception issue. that many people are now paying the. price for. [music]. But just as you know, Minnesota seemed. ready to start having a more frank and. constructive conversation about race and. even to just talk about the fact that. Somali were largely responsible for. these cases of fraud. It's now been. bulldozed by the debate over immigration.

and the xenophobic rhetoric that we're. hearing from the president. >> Right? >> It's going to be really hard to. disentangle these two issues. [music]. And I think the pragmatic change that. you know will likely happen in the. months ahead [music]. is going to be really hard to divorce. from the national politics. [music].

[music]. >> Well, Ernesto, thanks so much. >> Natalie, it's been a pleasure. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Wednesday, [music]. President Trump announced a plan to. weaken fuel efficiency requirements for. tens of millions of new cars and light.

trucks, [music]. calling them a scam. It was his latest. move to [music] gut fuel restrictions. put in place by the Biden administration. to help address climate change. [music]. Trump said the efficiency requirements. made cars too costly for automakers to. build [music] and too expensive for. Americans to buy. The administration. claimed the new [music] rules would. shave $1,000 off the cost of a new car. >> [music]. >> And in a report that's scheduled to be.

released on Thursday, the Pentagon's. acting inspector general said that. defense secretary Pete Hgsith [music]. risked endangering American troops. earlier this year when he used a private. messaging [music] app to discuss. military plans. The Pentagon's internal. inquiry [music] centered on Hexath's. role in a group chat on Signal, the. encrypted messaging app, [music] where. he discussed imminent strikes in Yemen. with other senior Trump officials. The chat became public [music] because a.

journalist was added to the group by. mistake. Today's episode [music] was produced by. Diana Wyn, Nina Feldman, and Stella Tan. It was edited by MJ Davis Lynn [music]. and Michael Benois. Contains music by. Alicia Etup and Marian Lozano. And was. engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for the daily. [music] I'm. Natalie Kitroof. See you tomorrow.