‘Thugs’: The Moderate Democrat Railing Against ICE

From New York Times, I'm Michael Baro. This is the daily. [music]. Today marks the sixth day of an unusual. [music] government shutdown in which. Democrats have withheld funding to a. single federal agency, the Department of. Homeland Security, in order to force. President Trump to change how thousands. [music] of its agents enforce.

immigration laws. Today, my conversation. [music] with an unlikely leader of the. Democratic strategy, Senator [music]. Katherine Cortez Masto of Nevada. >> [music]. [music]. >> It's Thursday, February [music] 19th.

>> Senator, >> hello. How are you? Good morning. >> It's Michael Barbaro. >> Michael, how I recognize a voice. how. are you? >> Oh, that's flattering. Thank you for. making time for us. >> Well, thank you. I appreciate uh the. opportunity to talk with you and and by. the way, thank you for the great. reporting you do. Seriously, it's. important. Yeah. >> You are, as we speak, in Nevada, >> correct? >> Not in Washington DC because Congress is.

on a. >> somewhat illtimed recess. >> That's right. >> And I said illtimed because we're in the. middle of a partial government shutdown. And I want to talk about your role in. that. We tend, Senator, to think of the. lawmakers who become the face of a. government shutdown or one of the faces. of it as a particular kind of lawmaker, a fire brand, a rabble rouser, pick your. adjective. You are pretty distinctly not. that. Does that seem fair? I.

>> I would agree that I'm a moderate. That's to me those are the moderates are. are people who are working to get things. done, right? Who work in a bipartisan. way who think that good government is. important that we still have to work. together to do our jobs. We still have. to deliver for the American public. whether it's in our state where we live. or across the country. And I think most. people, at least when I'm in my state, they expect that. They expect you to not.

only work on their behalf, but work in a. bipartisan way. But they also know that. there are times and I think it's okay to. be out there and pick that fight and say. no, this is a battle I'm going to be. very vocal about. This is one I am going. to stand up and say this can occur. And. you see that not I've done that and you. will see that for many moderates across. the country doing the same thing. Well, the last time there was a government. shutdown, you opposed it. I think you.

voted against it something like 15. times. And so I don't tend to think of. you as a shutdown person. >> I see what you're saying. Yeah. So, let. me just say this. For me, there's. nothing wrong with calling out an. administration, I don't care what party. you are, that's hurting our community, that is challenging our very norms, particularly around, in this case, law. and order. They need to be challenged. and they need to be called out. >> Well, that's what we want to talk about, how you got to this point where you.

decided to support withholding funding. from the Department of Homeland. Security. And I think it stands out that. you have joined this effort because of. your background in law enforcement. You're a former attorney general in the. state. You have very strong set of. relationships with law enforcement, which I'm sure we're going to be talking. about in this conversation. DHS, the. Department of Homeland Security is a. major law enforcement agency and you. have decided that funding should be. withheld from it over the way it has.

approached immigration enforcement and I. want to talk about how given your. background you got to that point. So. tell us that story. Where does it begin. over the past year or so? >> So let me just say back in September. when we were talking about the first. shutdown. >> over healthcare. >> Over healthcare. That's right. I knew. going into that argument, we weren't. going to win it. >> You knew that you were not going to win. it. >> You could play it out. You could see. that the Republicans were not going to.

support an extension of the ACA tax. credits because here's why. Most. Republicans never even voted for the. ACA. So, they weren't going to go out. there and vote for an ACA tax credit. [snorts] So, I knew it wasn't going to. happen. >> Right? You didn't see an outcome where. the core issue of healthcare cost was. going to be addressed. >> But here's the thing, Michael. Here's. the I do know that because this fight. was taken on, many people across the. country understood that we need to do a. better job of healthcare. So to me, this.

is a perfect example of where Democrats. come in. We are fighting for healthcare. We're fighting for affordability and. access. Republicans don't care. The. Republicans do not care about that. >> You're saying that even though you. didn't support that last shutdown, you. ended up seeing the value of it in. sending a message. So let me get to this. next shutdown which you are supporting. Tell me how you decided and kind of when. you decided that there was a problem. with immigration.

enforcement as it was being practiced by. the Department of Homeland Security. because this all started of course with. President Trump's second term a little. over a year ago. And I wonder if you. could just take me on the journey you. went through. >> So let me give you some background. Most. people don't know. Most of my career has. been in law enforcement. Um quite. honestly when Homeland Security was. created um I was working in the uh US. Attorney's Office in Washington DC as a.

federal prosecutor and my husband was a. Secret Service agent. >> Wow. So you're both in law enforcement. >> That's right. And I continued that work. Became attorney general here in the. state of Nevada. did that for eight. years. Worked with law enforcement, with. prosecutors my entire career and. understand the benefits and what we are. trying to achieve when we keep our. community safe around community. policing. If you're effective law. enforcement agency, you're going to get. in the community and build that public. trust. That's what it's about. You want.

to go after the violent criminals. You. want to hold them accountable, but you. also want to protect individuals. constitutional rights because it's about. keeping your community safe. now comes. along this administration and they have. all of this money the Republicans have. given them in their tax bill, >> right? The one big beautiful bill as he. calls it. Yep. >> The one big beautiful bill. Republicans. give them about $170 billion altogether. and that's 75 billion going to ICE which. the normal annual budget for ICE is. anywhere about 8 to 10 billion. There's.

no strings attached. No strings. attached. And what we are seeing now is. because they have all this money and. because they had this quota from Steven. Miller to do 3,000 immigration. deportations and detainments a day, they. started onboarding whoever they could to. work at ICE, right? >> And not only were they onboarding them. very quickly, they lowered their. standards for hiring them and they. decreased the training that most law. enforcement go through as they're. looking to do community policing. Right?

deescalation standards, use of force. standards, none of that. >> So, you become unsettled just from. recognizing that there's a sudden hiring. binge and that the standards are. changing and that the training in your. mind is insufficient. This is back many. months ago. So, that's your first set of. concerns. How do those evolve over time? So then as we are seeing in communities, this administration unfortunately.

wasn't about public safety. Even though. Donald Trump was talking about going. after violent criminals, which listen, I. think we all, everybody in the. community, I don't care where you live, you want violent criminals out of your. communities. You want your community. safe. You want to know that when you. call 911 and you have concerns, police. officers are going to respond. They're. going to keep you safe, respect your. rights, but go after those violent. criminals. What we were seeing, however, is just the opposite. Now they're. sending in to our communities. numbers of agents that normally were not.

assigned in those communities. >> This deportation force of excessive. force and they are coming into. communities and they are just roving. patrols which we've never seen before. Roving patrols. They are knocking on. doors. They are not even knocking. Half. the time they're going in and without a. judicial warrant. They're pulling people. out of their cars. They are following. people, I know this because this. happened in Las Vegas, >> following people with masks home from.

church. >> Following people home from church in. your state, >> home from church in my state. And I talk. to law enforcement all the time. I also. know that during this period of time. they actually went after some of my. local law enforcement police officers. went after their families and. threatened. >> I just want to slow down and understand. this. You. found evidence that immigration. enforcement agents were pursuing the. families of local law enforcement.

>> Correct. Correct. >> Was it because of their immigration. status? It was because of their. immigration status that they had been in. Nevada for a long period of time. They. were not violent criminals, but they had. been working, paying taxes, raising. their family, and they were going after. these individuals. And they were. threatening the careers of these law. enforcement officers that their. families. That tells me they're out of. control. That tells me there is another.

reason why they're coming into our. communities. It wasn't about going after. the most the violent criminals. It was. much more heinous and it was not at the. level that we saw in Chicago or. Minneapolis, but it is happening. >> And what you're describing, this is all. happening before Minneapolis. >> That's correct. And [snorts] then we see. what plays out in Minneapolis when they. send that police force in. uh national. police force that this administration. wants to create to just come in and.

brutalize communities and scare people. under the guise of some sort of. immigration enforcement. And. >> a national police force that's. brutalizing I mean that those are some. very loaded phrases. I just want to make. sure I'm understanding them. >> Yeah. No, please. Because I think that. is absolutely correct. They are going. after peaceful protesters. killing. peaceful protesters who are outraged. that they're coming into their. communities and actually not even going. after violent criminals and they're. violating individuals rights. They are. detaining and deporting US citizens.

They are using their administrative. warrants to go into people's private. properties. They have violated the first. amendment, the second amendment, the. fourth amendment, the fifth amendment, the 10th amendment of our constitution. That's what this administration is. doing. So yes, it demands action. >> and and so in your mind, given your. background in law enforcement, this is. not how law enforcement is is supposed. to be operating. And in mid January, you. you do something about it. And you. introduce a piece of legislation about.

ICE that would divert much of this money. that we're talking about that came from. the one big beautiful bill. that was designated for things like ICE. and divert it to local law enforcement. >> They have too much money that 75 billion. in ICE. Too much. So let's take it away. Let's let's let's divert it to local law. enforcement and state law enforcement. who are trained to work in our. communities, who know how to manage a. protest or even pull somebody over in.

the car without violating their. constitutional rights. It's the same I I. hear it and see it in my community. Same. conversation that you saw from the. police chief in Minneapolis saying the. same thing, right? It's just common. sense. we had him on the show. >> because I also know working and talking. to my local police chiefs and sheriffs. that not only are they understaffed, but. when when this deportation force comes. into their communities, they are then. overwhelmed. And part of this is if we. are really working to keep our. communities safe, let's trust those.

agencies that are trained to do it, >> right? and take the money away from. these ICE agents who clearly not only. are not trained, they don't care to be. trained and they don't care that they're. violating and harming individuals and or. killing them. and Republicans don't. embrace this proposal you have and you. and your colleagues decide that. something else has to be done given that. and what you all come up with is to use. your power of the purse, your role as.

the minority in the Senate to hold up. funding for DHS in a spending bill. unless you get a series of reforms. within DHS. pass. And I want to quickly. summarize those reforms that you all ask. for. Uh you ask for there to be warrants. when these agents come to make arrests. or to go to a house or a business. You. ask that agents IDs be visible. You ask.

that they no longer wear masks. And I wonder why you all decide that. those are the reforms that if you don't. get, you will hold up DHS funding. H how. you arrive at that negotiation tactic. essentially? >> Yeah, I can tell you very clearly from. my background in working with law. enforcement, those are common sense. practices that our local law enforcement. engage in every day. >> to keep our community safe. That's why. And so a lot of the the policies and. protocols that we had developed in the.

Democratic asks were just common sense. policies that our local law enforcement. and and state officers were already. doing. >> that you now want federal immigration. agents to use as well. >> That's correct. Why shouldn't they? So late last week, having not gotten any. of these requests granted to you by the. administration, by DHS, you and your. Democratic colleagues in the Senate, you. cast a vote to block funding to the. agency. And you know this well because.

you talked about the previous shutdown. over healthcare. Shutdowns involve a lot. of pain, a lot of unintended pain. Workers don't get paid, but a lot of. them have to work anyway. So services. become strained. In the case of DHS, that means services like airport. security, TSA, cyber security, FEMA, Coast Guard, and you all have made a. decision that you know will probably. cause some of that. pain. And I want to know why you think.

it's worth it to do this. If we do not stand up against this. lawlessness that we see this. administration engaging in in our. communities, then what is left for us? If you carry. out to the logical conclusion that this. administration has created their own. police force, that they're made up of. individuals who don't follow normal. protocols that police follow to keep our. communities safe, and they're doing just. the opposite. and they're sending them.

out under the guise of immigration. enforcement. What's next for them? >> And the concern is the next is they're. going to bring them out around our. election process. They're going to try. to claim the election is. >> that's what you fear is next. >> Absolutely. It's the logical conclusion. that you see happening. This. administration is using this police. force to do its bidding. Listen, I never. thought that I would see the day where. immigration agents that I worked with in. the past at a federal level would be. engaging in the brutality that they're.

doing now. [music]. >> Well, Senator, we're going to take a. break and when we come back, I want to. engage with the challenges that. Democrats, including you, may face in. explaining what this shutdown is and. what it isn't [music] to the public. We'll be right back. >> [music]. [music].

[music]. [music]. >> Senator, I want to turn now to a. fundamental challenge for you and your. party when it comes to this shutdown of. DHS. You've made clear that you see this. as a question of what good law. enforcement is and what it isn't and. that right now immigration enforcement. operations represent bad law enforcement. to you. But to some meaningful.

percentage of voters, this could end up. looking like something else, which is. potentially Democrats being weak on. immigration. How do you respond to that? Well, I think traditionally I have seen. that the Democrats are weak on. immigration under the last. administration under we have seen that. >> full full stop. I mean, you're conceding. that. >> Yeah. Well, absolutely. Because this has. been my challenge. I know as somebody.

who has worked in this space, we can do. both. We can secure our borders. We can. address the human trafficking, the drug. trafficking, weapons trafficking that's. happening at the border. I know because. as attorney general, I worked on it. I'm. not a border state, but I'm close enough. that I work with the Mexican AGs on. these very issues. We can work to secure. it, fund it, and at the same time have. an immigration process that is treats. people with respect, who want to come to. this country, who have been playing by. the rules, who have actually contributed.

to our communities and paying taxes and. raising their families. We can do both. But I have seen Democrats shy away from. that. They don't talk about the balance. between the two. And I I watched as the. last administration under Biden was too. afraid to talk about securing the. border. So it's just to me this is. common sense. This is where most of the. at least in Nevada and I see most of the. country. This is how they think. Americans aren't stupid. They can see.

both sides of it and want both sides of. it. But by defunding the agency that. oversees. immigration enforcement, including at. the border, how do you avoid the. perception that you are making that. work, which as you just acknowledged, Democrats are not known for being. effective enough at? How do you avoid. making that work harder or and less. effective? So what my ask is and what I've been.

talking about with my colleagues and. this is where Democrats need to be. aligned is that we are not saying. completely defund ICE. >> What we are saying is fund them to the. level they traditionally were so that we. are securing our borders. >> and we are also working in our. communities with local law enforcement. to go after the violent criminals under. the immigration jurisdiction that they. have that they've traditionally done. So, this isn't a defunding ICE or CBP. It's just let's give them the funding.

they need to actually operate under the. traditional jurisdiction to help keep. our communities safe and work with local. law enforcement. >> Right. And it's you're saying don't. don't overfund them. But in making the. argument you're making, you're you're. drawing an interesting distinction. You're suggesting that many voters want. and expect a certain conduct from. immigration enforcement agents and that. they want enforcement to be focused on. criminals. We've talked to plenty of. people on this show and from what you. said, you're you're a listener, voters.

who want interior enforcement based on. the fact that they believe illegally. crossing the border into the US itself. is a crime. And so in making the. distinctions that you are, are you in a. certain sense potentially creating an. incentive? The incentive that that. Democrats have been criticized for. creating which is you can come to the. United States, you can come illegally. and you can stay. >> and isn't that what President Trump won. his election in part based on?

>> Yeah. No, here here let me just put a. finer point on this. I do think there is. a role for Congress when it comes to our. immigration laws, right? Yes, we we have. to have a process for people to come. here. Yes, we want to make sure they. move through that process. Congress has. failed to do its job and update the laws. and that's what we should be doing. But. let me just say, Michael, people play. politics with this all the time. >> and it is an issue to me that is so.

frustrating. people, Republicans, Democrats, it's all politics to them. It. is not about how we move our country. forward with individuals who want to. work hard, be a part of our community, and have shown that and raise their. families. I am a US senator because my. grandfather came from Chihuahua, Mexico, >> and then he served in the US Army and. became a US citizen. Now, h why should. my story be any different than any other. person who comes to this country and.

wants the same opportunities for their. for their kids and their grandchildren? That's what this is about. But when the. Trump administration and Steven Miller. decide that all immigrants are horrific. and the rapists and they're killers and. we don't want any immigrant here, that. is wrong. And it goes against our laws. in this country and who we are. And to. me, this is a failing on Congress. This. is a failing on my Republican colleagues. who refuse to come to the table and work. with us on to address this and instead.

would rather play politics with this to. win elections. >> How confident are you that the position. you're articulating here is where most. Americans are? And I asked that because. I have some inside information from my. colleagues in the newsroom in the. Washington bureau who saw a memo that. you circulated to some of your. colleagues in the Democratic caucus of. the Senate making the case that there is. a right way to talk about this that. involves both criticizing immigration. enforcement as it currently exists while.

also establishing some firm. understandings about what is wrong with. illegal immigration and and where. enforcement needs to be very tough. >> Yeah, [snorts] you're right. We I have. been working as part of the what we call. the mod squad, moderate senators to. ensure that the states that we come. from, which are swing states like. Nevada, where there is a diverse group. of people living there, including in in. terms of party affiliation, Democrats,

Republicans, nonpartisans in equal. numbers. These are the the individuals. that are going to make the difference in. whether or not Democrats are going to be. in control of the Senate. Mhm. >> That's how we win the Senate back. And. if we are going to appeal to them and. talk to them and listen to them, we have. to understand what they care about. And. the polling that you're referring to is. a polling of just those swing states and. who those voters are. And you're. absolutely right. They want safe. communities. But they also are demanding.

what they are seeing with ICE. They. don't like the over excessive abuse of. ICE. They want ICE to focus on the. violent criminals. and they want to know. that people are working to help keep. their communities safe from those. violent criminals, the worst of the. worst. >> Okay? So, they want an effective, this. polling shows that voters want an. effective ICE that follows the rules, but that does its job, particularly when. it comes to detaining, deporting.

criminal immigrants who are here. illegally. >> That's right. And that's and that's what. I say is is our conversation with them. is yes, we've got to get them back to. the time where we do this where we allow. the system to work to go after and find. individuals that are the worst of the. worst, the most violent. We also hold. people accountable to following our. immigration laws. That is the. traditional role of ICE and CBP and. that's what many people want and. understand. They do not want what they.

are seeing playing out in front of their. very eyes on TV or even in their. communities. And quite honestly, that's. why they're coming out and protesting. That's why they're using their voices. That's why you see them out there and. and they shouldn't be killed for it. >> I want to go back to the last shutdown. as a point of reference. leaders of your party like Senator Chuck. Schumer, they believe that ultimately. that shutdown, which you didn't support, but it sounds like you gained some. valuable lessons from that that was a. political victory in the way that it.

elevated the issue of rising healthcare. costs and put it on Republicans. But. even as a victory politically, it did. not result in policy changes. If this shutdown of DHS becomes. something like that, a messaging win. without policy changes that you're. asking for, would you be satisfied with. that? >> Yes. Because here's why.

>> You would be. >> because here here's why. >> At the end of the day, this is about an. administration who is out of control. And if they are not willing to even. compromise or work with us on addressing. what the American public sees with this. ICE agency, they're not willing to come. to work with us to reign them in. There's a problem with that. administration. And the only way at the end of the day.

for us to get more accountability over. this administration is to take control. of Congress, is to win in these. elections, whether it is in the House or. the Senate. We have more oversight role. We have more accountability. We can call. them in. We can demand change. We have. more control over the appropriations. Right now, what we are seeing in this. country is the Republicans in control. have abdicated their role in Congress to. this administration and doing whatever. the bidding of this administration, whatever it wants to do. >> So even if you don't win these reforms, you may win the argument. And winning.

the argument might then mean winning the. election. And then you can in your mind. change the way this administration. operates when it comes to immigration. enforcement. >> And that's how the process works. That's. who who we are as Americans. That's what. this is about. That's what this country. is. And that's worth fighting for. Whether we win the policy debate or we. win the messaging war, the end of the. day, it's do we win as a country. Do we. win when we say no more to this. administration sending these thugs into.

our communities? And we can do that as a. country when we elect and make change. >> Let's say for a moment that you do end. up getting what you want at some point. from the administration. You do end up. with some understanding that the masks. might come off these agents, that. they're going to be using warrants and. they're going to be identifying. themselves, you know, with badges as. they go about their work. Even if you. get all that with agencies like ICE and. with Border Patrol, given the way they.

have operated and given the rhetoric. from the president, given the conduct. that you have described as heinous, I. mean, you've called some of these folks. thugs. Even if you get these reforms, will these be agencies and agents that. you can have faith in? or is the problem. here a lot bigger than tactics and. conduct? >> That's a fair question and I think the.

the problem here is a lot bigger. Right. Of course, not only do we want these. reforms, but we want to be able to. ensure we can enforce the administration. to follow these reforms and we have seen. in the past a lack of trust from this. administration. They say one thing and. do another. So it is a valid point and. it is something that I not just members. of Congress but I think the American. public are grappling with and why they. are demanding change in the elected. leaders and they're demanding and. calling out what they are seeing. I.

think this administration thrives on. chaos and uncertainty and constantly. moving the goalposts. That's how this. president has succeeded in the past. That's how he will continue to operate. but is not how you govern and is not. what the American people want. >> Senator, how does the shutdown come to. an end or does it not come to an end. until after the midterms if the. administration isn't really going to. negotiate? >> Yeah, I don't know the pathway. I I. can't I don't know. Uh Michael, I can.

only say at this moment in this time, the changes that we are demanding, it has to occur. We cannot see another. community being brutalized by these. lawless ICE agents and CBP under this. administration. We just cannot. [music]. >> Well, Senator, thank you [music] very. much for your time. We really appreciate. it.

>> Thank you, Michael. >> [music]. >> On Wednesday afternoon, Democratic. [music] leaders in Congress chastised. both President Trump and congressional. Republicans for failing to act with. urgency to end the shutdown of the. Department of Homeland Security. Donald. Trump spent the weekend on the golf. course with Ronda Santis.

and so [music] we've not seen any. highlevel effort coming from the. president or from the House or Senate. Republican leaders. We have no idea. where they're at in the midst of a. crisis of their own making. During a. news conference, House Democratic Leader. Hakee Jeff said that his party's. proposal for ending the shutdown was in. the hands of the White House, but that. he was still waiting for their response. [music]. >> ICE needs to be reformed in a dramatic,

bold, meaningful, and transformational. manner. And if that doesn't happen, the. DHS funding bill will not move forward. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know.

[music] today. California officials said. that eight of the nine skiers missing. since an avalanche on Tuesday have died. The avalanche now [music] ranks as one. of the deadliest in the state's modern. history. The skiers were part of a group of 15, [music]. including four guides, on a 3-day. backcountry expedition near Lake Tahoe. Six of those who were caught in the. avalanche [music] were rescued after. they used a combination of emergency.

beacons [music] and their iPhones to. share their location. The avalanche occurred after [music]. nearly 3 ft of snow had accumulated in. the area over a short period. [music]. Today's episode was produced by Mary. Wilson and [music] Eric Krupky. It was.

edited by Rachel Quester and Chris. Hackel. contains music by Alicia [music]. Etup and Marian Lozano and was. engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks. [music] to Phil Corbett and Nick Pitman. [music]. That's it for [music] the daily. I'm. Mabaro. See you tomorrow.