The Year of Taylor Swift

from The New York Times I'm Michael. babbaro this is the. daily. today 2023 was many different things to. many different people for our guest. Times magazine writer Taffy brodesser. anner it was the year of Taylor. Swift it's Friday December 15th.

so I have to say this is the episode. I've been looking forward to the most of. the whole year what which probably says. something about the gestation of a daily. episode that it's taken us this long to. make and the news this year and the news. this year I have been looking forward to. talking to you Taffy about Taylor Swift. for months and months and months and I. think it's appropriate that this ends up. being one of the last episodes we do in.

2023 I am so happy to be here talking to. you about it yeah and here just going to. get this out of the way not objective. about Taylor Swift neither am I I'm a. fan I'm a Swifty we have to disclose. these things it's it's part of the rules. the ethics. guidelines I don't pretend to be. open-minded I'm bought in and within the. context of I suppose fandom yeah we're. going to apply a critical lens we're. we're going to rise to the we're going. to be journalists sure so I want to.

understand in your mind why Taylor is. not someone to just be a fan of to. become entranced by during a commute. workout cleaning session and here I'm. being biographical uh but somebody. worthy of a journalistic inquiry of the. kind that you carried out a little bit. earlier this year my pitch for this. story was that we are neglecting our. audience if if we don't cover this thing.

that is so big that clearly became what. is obviously the cultural event of my. lifetime I remember the way my parents. used to talk about Woodstock which they. didn't go to but they talked about it. and I knew about it and as the summer. went on it was all around me in a way. that I don't think anything has ever. been all around me and I began to see. first that it was going to be Woodstock. and then it was going to be bigger than. Woodstock then it was going to be.

something like everything else about her. that we don't have words to compare to. and that is what Taylor Swift is okay. let's put some numbers and some context. okay around this very big year just give. us the cliff notes of what makes this. the year of Taylor Swift So Good Morning. America it's Taylor I wanted to tell you. something that I've been so excited. about for a really long time I've been. planning Taylor Swift announces her new.

tour uh the tour is called the eras tour. and it's a journey through all of my. musical eras of my career people try to. get tickets they can't get tickets I. didn't get tickets to the tlor Swift. concert I don't every single album I. know every song I can sing you every. song they are paying thousands and. thousands of dollars you're hearing. about $118,000 tickets wow and then the. tour starts the tour starts in Arizona.

and at first it's just a concert and. then. suddenly I don't want to say out of. nowhere cuz it's not out of nowhere she. is. everywhere the only thing that exists in. any of my feeds even in certain parts of. the newspaper on television in. conversation is Taylor Swift and the. tour itself becomes a phenomenon it. becomes its own new cycle Taylor Swift. fans may have taken her hit song Shake.

It Off too literally yeah when she sings. shake it. off all the shaking it Swift Seattle. show this past weekend it actually. caused the equivalent of a 2.3 magnitude. earthquake that's a new record there is. an earthquake in Seattle that. registers on seismographs near the. stadium right so the US tour could. generate $4.6 billion in consumer. spending that boost that has leaders. world wide requesting their own AAS tour.

dates pleased to the world leaders are. asking her to come and bring her tour to. give their economy a boost at some point. it made a billion dollars the most We. Believe of any musician ever we don't. know when this tour is going to end. Michael we don't know if this tour is. going to. end and then she announces Taylor Swift. just announced her tour is headed to the.

big screen that she's going to release a. movie of of the. concert while she's on tour and she. releases this. movie it is a bananas hit. right I saw it on opening day I mean.

I had a Taylor Swift birthday party I. turned 48 I invited 35 people and on the. day I published Story We published seven. other stories about Taylor Swift because. that's what we do now we we are the. Taylor Swift. time are you ready for it we're ready. for it the 2023 Time person of the year. is Taylor Swift okay and then she was. named recently times person of the year. right but we picked a choice someone who.

represents Joy someone who's taken her. own story and made it big enough for. everyone and I like everything else. about her when I saw it was her I saw of. course it was who else would it have. [Music]. been so that brings me to why we are. here you and I sure not simply to Marvel. and revel in the bigness of Taylor Swift. over the past year but to to really get.

at the heart of it to decode it to make. sense of it yeah and you took on the. Taylor phenomenon in a pretty major way. this past year for a cover story of the. New York Times magazine so I mean what. did you think had been kind of left. unsaid and ultimately where did you. land the thing I wasn't seeing was the. thing I came to understand as I was. watching the concert play out on social. media I had not yet read the definitive. account of why matters on this level why.

these numbers why everyone of every age. why when you see a grown woman there. with a teenage child you don't know if. the teenage child is bringing the grown. woman or vice. versa she has these songs that sound. like amazing pop songs she is a. songwriting Savant but at some point if. you surround yourself with the music. enough you start to understand what she. is doing which is she is telling the.

story of girlhood into Womanhood H and. in her. songs I see it I see her in real. time cataloging the experiences of what. it means to grow up and it's not always. a parent from first listen second listen. 10th listen CU a lot of her songs to the. untrained eye yeah kind of all seem like. a love song Like Love Songs they're only.

love songs right if you're not careful. except that yes they seem like only love. songs what a great trick that you could. write about business betrayal and. friendship betrayal in a love song but. then when you land on what is unique. about a woman a girl a female experience. it's. that we tend to and I know I am speaking. in a highly subjective way we tend to.

take all of that to heart in the same. way you. know times that I've been betrayed in. business hurt as much as the times I've. been cheated on by boyfriends it all. lives in the same place and finally I. don't know why it took so long for. somebody to understand that we needed. songs about these things these are the. full range of a woman's experience of of. any person's experience and she.

channeled it okay so let's using that. framework approach Taylor Swift and her. meaning to you me and everybody else. through these songs okay let's decode so. that we can better understand what. you're really talking about here where. do you think we should start so let's. start at the beginning and I'll tell you. that she was this very young ambitious. child she wanted to a singer she lived.

in Pennsylvania and soon they moved to. Nashville and one day she sang the. national anthem at a basketball game in. Pennsylvania and she was so proud of. that and she went home and she called up. her friends and she asked them do you. want to go to the mall with me tomorrow. and they said nowhere busy each of them. they were all busy and her mother said. I'll take you to the mall her beloved. mother Andrea took her to the mall and. guess who was there Michael you know who. was there I think I know was there all. those friends and they were together and.

she the crest imaginable cut to a young. person this was a wound she just started. bleeding there in the mall her mother. turns her around and said we're going to. a better mall they go to the King of. Prussia Mall and she writes about that. incident in a song called The Best Day. and the song is about what happened but. it lives in the. space of. not the mall and not the other mall but.

the car ride where she's sitting next to. her. mother. and having the sort of experiences you. could only really have next to your. mother she has all of these horrible. emotions about what just happened but by. the time she's writing it she also has. this gratitude so much so that she will. call this eventually call the song The. Best Day I. don't I'm going to do now it's.

[Music]. schol but I know I'm laughing on the. [Music]. car I don't know who I'm going to talk. to now at school but I know I'm laughing. on the car ride home with you Pop Songs. always exist in this glamorous space. where the subject of the song has to. somehow boost. the performers image as well and this is.

not this is this is not. self-aggrandizing this is the oppos the. opposite self granding what is deising. the anonym for self aiz is going to the. mall with your mom that's the that's the. phrase right right and window shopping. afterwards so much that you can finally. forget the names of the friends who were. so cruel to you right don't know how. long it's going to take to feel okay but. I know I had the best day with you today. M day with.

you. today so from early on from the very. beginning what Taylor Swift is up to is. processing the very personal pain of. girlhood through her music it's very. biographical and what you're saying is. really distinct about it is that it. makes no attempt to glamorize or pretend. that these were wonderful times it's a. real admission of just kind of the. awfulness of being alive and it's not.

taking. anybody's word for what a song should be. about it is saying this is my unique. experience I wonder if anyone else has. had this experience and it turns out. everyone has everyone has gone to the. mall and seen their friends hang like in. America everyone has gone to the mall. and seen their friends hanging out. without them right I mean I still have. those feelings I Instagram Jesus why. wasn't I invited to that party yeah okay. okay so what is the next song that we.

should decode and here I guess just to. stipulate for The Listener we are not. going to be going through the entire. Taylor Swift catalog here we're a half. hour show so we're just going to be. talking about a few of these songs to. explain your thesis so which one should. we talk about next okay so let's talk. about all too well I see from The. Haunted look in your eyes that you too. love all too well yeah she released a. 10-minute version years after this was. already a sort of secret fave of. people's and then it became sort of.

everyone's favorite so all to well was a. song that came out on red we're talking. about a few meaningful years after sure. yeah best day yes came out on red she's. already a pop star she's dating famous. people this song is allegedly about Jake. Gyllenhaal her relationship with Jake. Gyllenhaal and All Too Well is a journey. of someone who is saying the most.

intimate explosive. things about a relationship after she. sort of comes to like she was in love. and for every bit that she was in love. she is now aware of how she was. manipulated how this was never going to. work well talk about the lyrics because. I think it's an incredibly exhaustive. like. encyclopedic kind of after study right. of a failed relationship right and.

something about her as a songwriter she. loves to upend a. cliche her understanding of cliche and. language and metaphor listen to. [Music]. this you call me up again just to break. me like a. promise.

[Music]. oh and then she says something that is. so withering so casually cruel in the. name of being honest it is. like there is nobody who has ever been. in a relationship who does not remember. the time somebody said something honest. to them that was actually cruel and how. you hate yourself for appreciating the. honesty first before you understand. how completely awful it was those lyrics.

are so staggering to me in a way that. when someone else is writing your songs. for you it never quite goes there. because what leaves when someone else is. writing music for you what leaves when. you're trying to figure out how to make. a hit is specificity right specificity. is out the window because you want every. song to be a number one you want. everyone to understand it right and what. she understands is that actually it's. specificity that we've been missing from.

our songs right that specificity is what. gives us the complexity the nuance and. all the feeling that we get from a. Taylor Swift song It's a stunning song. It's a stunning song and yet another. song made very popular by her fans. that's confessional and about rejection. right and she proceeds along this path. and she becomes even more famous and. usually by the way at this point every.

every pop singer becomes ridiculous. because they're too famous to be living. regular lives anymore so they could only. write about their Fame right not their. interior and not their interior or also. new things aren't happening to them. anymore they're just like yeah theyed. they're protected they're surrounded by. people who just agree with them and. they're just sort of statues to what. they used to be not Taylor Swift because. things keep happening to her right so.

then the next thing that happens is the. thing that everyone knows happens yo. Taylor I'm really happy for you I'm let. you finish but be which as Kanye storms. the stage at the VMAs and starts talking. about Beyonce in the middle of Taylor. Swift's acceptance speech for a VMA. she's humiliated but a few years later. Taylor and Kanye seem to reconcile they. are seen out to dinner together they. take pictures together they're hugging. at a war. chose.

thenay. made things take a turn when Kanye says. some terrible things about Taylor Swift. in his own song lyrics and when Taylor. objects Kanye says he had her permission. and then it gets even uglier when Kim. Kardashian comes to her then husband's. defense and she releases videotape. proving allegedly that he had Taylor's. permission the videotape is later.

revealed to be edited but in the. meantime Kim calls Taylor a snake and. Kim Kardashian's many many fans are. Unleashed on Taylor and Taylor a digital. native who knows not to throw good money. after bad gets the hell out she goes. dark and she. disappears and then a few months later. [Music].

her social media comes back on with just. the image of a snake out of it Taylor. announced her new album it's titled. reputation she broke the news on. Instagram Wednesday with a series of. images now this comes following her the. snake becomes this image of what this. album reputation that she's about to. release is going to be a confession a. Mourning a. self-own it is the. rawest. most brutal. album of self-loathing She lays it out.

to everybody and I cannot tell you what. my favorite song on that album is. because if you press play on it you'll. just lose. me but let's start with look what you. made me do the song starts like. this. I like your little games don't like your. tilted St like your little games don't.

like your tilted stage which is a. reference to Kanye West yes it's all a. reference to Kanye West and then it's a. reference to everyone else who came. after her but then ultimately it's a. reference to herself and her own. understanding of her role in how this. all. happened once belonged to me you asked. me for a place to. she is talking about how she had this.

Kingdom of Fame of. approbation it was taken from her she. befriended Kanye after the VMAs and then. he did this to. her and she felt so stupid and used and. then started asking herself why was I. even willing to be friends with this. person who humiliated me what is the. need that I had and this song is born.

from the self-loathing. of. realizing that you were willing to sit. with the people who hated you just to. get them to stop hating you h i I don't. know anyone who can't relate to. that but then here are the other lyrics. I got smarter I got harder in the nick. of time honey I rose up from the dead I. do it all all the time and there she is.

saying this was going to kill me but I. was going to come back as whatever it is. I am now and that is as someone with. regret with anger with passion I'm not a. little girl anymore I'm not trying to. please everyone. anymore never again will she roll over. so that she will be loved now she is. going to do things on her terms because. there are no rules anymore there's no. one else who has been this famous. there's no one else who has been this.

maligned and come back from it so now. she's making her own rules and now. Michael now we are in Taylor Swift's. World we'll be right. back so Taffy where we left off before. the break was a defiant Tailor Swift. taking yet another painful moment of her. life and using it to rebuild herself and. to depart from one era of life to.

another so what happens next for this. reborn tougher Taylor Swift so what. happens next is that Taylor Swift who. now understands that there is no. precedent for her or for the career that. she is going to have something terrible. happens to her again again again. something terrible happens to her and. it's it's some music inside our baseball. here Taylor Swift finds out that her. Masters were sold to someone she doesn't.

like without her knowledge or permission. just explain that okay so the Masters. are the original recordings of your. songs and whoever owns your Masters. which in a traditional recording. contract is the record. company that's the entity that profits. off of your music you could become very. rich performing but when we play music. The Money generally goes to the owner of.

the Masters so when we listen to Taylor. Swift on Spotify Apple music and someone. makes money it's the person who owns the. master yes for the most part and she. claims that she woke up to learn the. information that the Masters had been. sold she knew that the Masters might be. up for sale she says she asked for the. opportunity to buy them back she says. that she was not given the opportunity. to buy them on her own and the worst. part of all of this was that the person.

who sold it was someone she really. trusted and she couldn't bear it so she. did what she always does when she is. having a revelation a deep moment heavy. emotion she writes a song about it well. she also winds up re-recording all of. her songs one by one to retain their. rights and to profit from them right. huge amount of work which was genius but. she also wrote a song about mhm the song. is called my tears Ricochet and again.

she has not confirmed that this is what. it's about but we all know that this is. what it's. about and I don't even know which lyrics. to pick for you. because this feels like a love song so. you can you can read it like you can. this could be about your ex-boyfriend. this could be about a guy you just broke. up with or even more importantly it. could be about any time that someone. who was in charge of looking out for.

your best interests that you were. working in good faith for pulled the rug. out from under you and betrayed you so. here we. [Music]. go to go with. Grace cuz when i' fight you used to tell. me was. Brave I didn't have it in myself to go. with Grace cuz when I'd fight you used. to tell me I was.

Brave so what she's saying here is that. she couldn't just let this happen the. way by the way everyone's Masters get. sent around and nobody ever involves the. world in the drama but she didn't have. it in herself to just she could do it. she just couldn't do it it's not in. her and then in that next line cuz when. I'd fight used to tell me I was Brave. she grew up with with the guy who sold. the Masters he was the one who was. always telling her to be spunky and to.

fight for what she wanted and so he's. partly to blame for the fact that she. didn't have it in herself to go with. Grace and then there's this beautiful. [Music]. Bridge anywhere. [Music]. iwhere I can go anywhere I want anywhere. I want just not home you could decide. that home is her master but actually. actually I think home is this innocent.

place where she did not have to struggle. she did not have to bring her entire. fandom into this fight which she did she. can go anywhere she wants she's a global. Superstar but her home was the place. where she knew she was being taken care. of where she felt safe it's gone now and. because in these relationships they call. you a they're in my family this guy's. like a father to me and he just betrayed. her and she didn't understand yet.

throughout all of this she had not yet. understood that this business will. always break your heart that somebody. will always act in the interest of. profits then there. is so I'm going to just finish the. bridge and then go into I'm sorry please. let me indulge this is a very personal. song for me so I could go anywhere I. want just not home and I still talk to. you when I'm screaming at the sky and. when you can't sleep at night you hear. my stolen lullab eyes of course stolen.

is the word she uses to describe what. happened when her Masters were sold it's. such a terrific. song that I'm embarrassed to say that I. didn't listen to it much because I. thought the title was terrible I thought. my tears Ricochet is like the strangest. soest most on the- nose title right. Tears Don't Ricochet what are you a. physicist I know I. know and I didn't pay it much. attention until the week before the.

concert when I started just making sure. I was going in as a New York Times. Reporter does knowing everything I need. to know so this is a week before you. somehow got tickets to go see Taylor I. got tickets IRL IRL and I traveled to. California this is a few months ago this. a few months ago this is in July I. traveled to Santa Clara and on that. night where I thought I was going to be. sort of riveted by various aspects of it.

the religious experience I had at the. concert was during my tears Ricochet. religious how um you. know you know I'm 48 years old and I've. been working for a long. time and over the course of my many. years working you know I'm a competitive. person and I've I've found myself. betrayed by people who loved me. appreciated me and acted in their.

business's best interests I um the job I. had before this was at a magazine I I. learned that I wasn't just being. underpaid at that job I was being paid. roughly a third of what my male. colleagues were being paid um I was. beloved by them but also I loved them I. loved them so much and when I hear this. song I cry and I Cry here reiterating it. because I can't believe that happened to.

me it was such a betrayal of me and it. was such a betrayal of what I thought of. myself that's the that's the worst part. of it is that if you had asked me will. these people act in their best interests. it was a magazine company of course it. would it was a Publishing Company of. course it would but did I think I was. the kind of person that this could. happen to I. didn't and when I hear this song I am. right back there I am right back finding.

out in the most stunning way that I am. being so comparatively. underpaid and that's um that's why it. hurts to listen to this song and that's. why and that's why it helps to listen to. this song Because also there's this part. of me that now now that Taylor Swift. feels that way it allows me off the hook. a little bit if it could happen to. Taylor Swift why wouldn't it happen to. me. [Music].

me what you have clearly just. demonstrated is that the Taylor Swift. project of internalizing pain and. turning it into. music has the effect that you're. describing on tens of millions of people. it makes them see a. new a lot of the pain in their lives to. look at squarely in the face and to try. to better understand it and to have a.

cthis around. it. [Music]. right. [Music]. anywhere screaming I can go anywhere I. want just not home. mhm because what happens. is you look. back at all of your triumphs and now now.

they're tinged now there's an asterisk. to them look how underpaid you were look. how you were being taken like a sucker. look at your kids basketball games that. you missed when you were on the story I. was so lucky to have work that's what I. tell myself I was so lucky to be. building my career I was so lucky I was. writing stories that got. attention but then I'm in a stadium and. it all comes over me and I am with. 69,000 people that something happened to. and.

I I once did a story on a mega. church and I suddenly understood what it. meant to be an Evangelical Christian who. was sa like had she said who would like. to come up here and get saved I would. have made my way up to the stage and let. her put her Palm on my forehead and I. would have said I am. saved. [Applause].

you're saying all around you are people. I'm assuming many of them are women and. many of them are boys but they're all. some of them are boys they're all a. couple of them are couple of them are. boys they're all identifying with a. moment where their Triumph their moment. of. joy is recognized for its flaws for its. betrayals for its undermining quality. yeah everyone is singing that same lyric. and it was something different for.

everybody but in that moment I knew what. Taylor Swift has known all along which. is that this emotion is universal we the. more detail you give the more I will. find myself in it m the more you trust. me as a. listener and let me into your life the. more I will find myself the way you have. rendered a life and I will be so. grateful for the rest of my my. life to have been able to sing that and.

to be able to have some sort of. catharsis around it clearly it wasn't. enough cuz here I am crying on The. [Laughter]. [Music]. Daily all great art is the art that sees. you and I know this from doing a million. celebrity profiles and I know this from. my understanding of fandom that if you. if you show somebody that they are real. you have them for.

life she has me for life and I'm not the. only. [Music]. [Music]. one Taff I really want to thank you this. has been a wonderful conversation. Michael it's been so great to be here to. talk about my favorite subject with my.

favorite podcast host a thank you truly. and Happy Holidays happy Holidays to. [Music]. [Laughter]. you. [Music].

[Music]. w. [Music].

do you think we should end with Michael. and I singing all too well to each other. yes that is that that might that might. that might be and I was never good at. telling jokes but the punch line goes. I'll get older but your lovers Wow Wow. Mike we'll be right. back here's what else you need. today the times reports that the Biden.

Administration has told the Israeli. government that it must wrap up its. large-scale ground campaign in Gaza by. the end of the year that message. reflects the US's growing unease with. the number of Palestinian civilians who. have been killed by Israel in response. to hamas's Terror attacks on October. 7th the US is now asking Israel to. transition to a new new phase of the war. that would involve using smaller groups.

of Israeli Commandos to carry out. targeted missions such as killing Hamas. leaders and rescuing. hostages and on Thursday leaders of the. European Union officially open. negotiations to allow Ukraine to join. the economic. Alliance the process of joining the EU. could take years but would represent a. Triumph for Ukraine's leaders as they.

try to deepen ties to the west and build. financial support for their war against. [Music]. Russia today's episode was produced by. Sydney Harper Eric krupky and summer. tamod it was edited by Michael benoa 's. original music by Pat mccusker Dan. Powell Diane W and Maran Lozano and was.

engineered by Chris Wood our theme music. is by Jim runberg and Ben lurk of. [Music]. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael Boro see you on Monday. [Music].