The Woman Who Fought the Texas Abortion Ban

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily this week a major abortion case in. Texas Drew attention to one of the most. contentious fights since the overturning. of roie Wade over the question of who. can get Exempted from an abortion ban. most of the states that have banned. abortion allow for rare exceptions for. example if the mother's life is in.

danger but while that might seem clear. on paper in practice it's far more. ambiguous as a result that ambiguity is. increasingly ending up in court today I. speak to the woman at the heart of the. case in Texas and to my colleague Kate. xeri about its surprising. effect it's Thursday December.

[Music]. 14th Kate are you there yes I'm here. great are you on we are I spoke with. Kate Cox last week on the evening before. her hearing at a Texas Court hi Sabrina. nice to meet you Kate really nice to. meet you too thank you so Kate tell us a. little bit about yourself yeah um I'm a. Texan I'm a mother of two I have been in.

Texas raised here I built my academic. career and my professional career here. in Texas I have a wonderful husband and. we've always dreamed of a big family we. have a three-year-old daughter and a one. and a half year-old son so they keep our. hands full between the little ones and. it's both working full-time I always. like to call it joyful. chaos I'm would love to have you know at. least one more more little one you know.

it's not maybe two um so I would love a. big. [Music]. family and we were really excited in. August to receive the news of a third. baby we'd been hoping for a third baby. and our second born was finally sleeping. through the night so felt like good. timing um it uh took a turn in October. when we received the results from a.

screening that we had. done some people are familiar with these. screening tests because you can also. find out if you're having a boy or girl. so I was anxious for the results of the. test to come back because we were very. excited to find out if we were going to. have a boy or a. girl and I got the result a phone call. directly from my doctor and when I. answered the phone I could hear the. seriousness in her voice and so I pulled. over and that's when the doctor told me. that screening came back and showed an.

increased risk for something called Tri. 18 also known as Edward. [Music]. syndrome I'd never even heard of it um. most cases do not make it to the end of. pregnancy many are still born and in our. case it's come with severe health issues. of vital organs including brain. development heart development spine limb. development other.

things and so I was just in my car. parked and just crying I felt Frozen you. know in that. moment but I kind of told myself you to. have some hope because it wasn't a. diagnosis you it was a a screening but. every week was more bad news each time. we went back not just a fun with the. heart and the brain and so we knew um. and it's hard to expain kind of feeling.

between both hope and despair because. you're hopeful well the screen could be. wrong and you know there might be a. problem with the spine but she'll have a. wonderful life in a wheelchair or you. know and then one of those last. ultrasounds I had done and my. mother-in-law asked even if somehow the. results came back and this was not full. chist 18 is this situation severe and. the doctor said yes it's severe we asked. best kid scenario how much time might we.

have and she said could be an hour could. be a week if she survived first um so. that was very hard to hear so we we knew. also um I've been through two SE. sections in the past two births did not. go according to plan I didn't want C. sections with either so I had a lot of. questions about what the birth might. look like for this one and what risks I. could be vacing what that could mean for. another baby as well and so I.

knew for my health and for the best. chance at another baby and for this pain. and every day of preparing a baby and. wondering you don't feel her kick. wondering if her heart has stopped you. know it's always in the back of your. mind um. sorry I'm noticebly pregnant and I walk. around a lot with two small children and. you know people smile at my belly or ask. me what I'm do and things like that.

so the questions are hard so we knew for. our family we we knew what we wanted to. do you said she is it a. girl yeah the. [Music]. girl and even though you know throughout. the process all signs pointed to full. Tri me 18 we wanted to wait and get the.

full results of. amniocentesis and so we were waiting on. those results and once we results came. in that's when we knew um that was full. stry. 18 and when did you get those final. results full triome 18 only last. week how many weeks are you now Kate I'm. 20. weeks and we had talked to the doctor. about you know what we what do people do.

I felt though I had no idea we'd be in. the situation and I asked what do women. do in the situation um if we choose not. to continue the pregnancy is that an. option in Texas and she said no I wanted. to on the one hand do what I knew was. best for my health and for a future. pregnancy and for my well-being and our. family and but at the same time you know. it felt really scary that you couldn't.

do that in my state that I love deeply. um I'll admit you know working full-time. and two little ones that keep me busy I. I didn't know all the nuances of the law. but I imagined that there were. exceptions and so I was very shocked. that we did not fall into that exception. in the situation that we were. in and so I was looking for stories. online just to hear women's stories had. been through what we were going through.

who'd had diagnosis like we got in their. pregnancies and that's the when I came. across the Center for Reproductive. Rights that's what brought me to reach. out to get help and see you know where. we could go and tell me Kate where are. you in the legal process now what's. happening we have a hearing and so we're. going to ask the state for trro and. we're going to with their approval be. able to access the medical care that I.

need here in Texas trro so temporary. restraining order which means you're. asking the judge effectively will they. make an exception and allow you to get. an abortion in. Texas correct and how are you feeling. about it the hearing tomorrow I'm. hopeful I'm hopeful that the state will. be sympathetic I'm I love and I want. this baby um so badly there's nobody. that loves and wants this baby girl more. than I do but there's no outcome at the.

end of this where I take home a healthy. baby. girl and I want to do what's best for my. health sorry a. moment I I'm hopeful I think that they. can look at me and look at my situation. and see their wife their daughter their. loved ones we never thought that um we'd.

be in this situation I never thought I. would ever want or need an abortion but. this is a medical decision and it's. what's needed for my. [Music]. help have you ever been in a coure. hearing. before no no um never I've seen I've.

never been involved. um yeah this this is uh this is very new. for. me are you. nervous um I think I'm nervous every day. I've been nervous since October when. this started um you know so so yes I. mean I'm I'm human think anybody would. be um yeah I'm hanging in there though. good what are you GNA do tonight Kate. well certainly try to get a little bit.

of sleep um didn't get much um last. night but um and know last night I laid. and we did um Shadows on the wall with. my daughter and um you know she's 3. years old she brings me a lot of Joy. talks her ear off which is you know. really really fun and so spend time and. you know hug the babies tight and hope. for the. [Music]. best.

[Music]. [Music]. we'll be right. back Kate you've been covering abortions. since the the dobs ruling last year and.

you've been following Kate Cox's case. over the past week tell us what happened. when she got to her hearing well first. of all we should say that Texas has some. of the strictest abortion bands in the. country one is actually the ban that was. challenged in the original row case. another one is a more recent law that. bans abortion after about 6 weeks when. there is fetal cardiac activity and for. doctors violating these bans performing. an abortion can lead to 99 years in. prison fines of $1,000 doar losing your.

medical license there are some limited. exceptions which are that you can. perform an abortion if it is to save the. life of a pregnant woman or prevent her. from substantial harm to a major bodily. function my name is Maya G gamble I'm. the judge of the 459th district court. and I am hearing so this is a legal. backdrop when the judge and the lawyers. and Kate Cox herself with her husband by. her side gather on Zoom for this. emergency hearing um we are here I don't. have a cause number yet I just realized.

oh yes I do I apologize we are here on. Kate Cox Justin Cox and damla Carson MD. versus the state of Texas um and the. Texas Medical Board all right so um my. name is Molly Dwayne for the plaintiffs. good morning and and may it please the. court yes thank you so K Cox's lawyer. Molly Dwayne from the Center for. Reproductive Rights essentially makes. two arguments about why Kate Cox should. be allowed to have this abortion in the.

time between when this case was filed on. Tuesday morning and our hearing today. Miss Cox has had to visit the emergency. room again her fourth emergency room. visit in the last month for pregnancy. symptoms including severe cramps leaking. fluid and elevated vital signs the first. is that K Cox's Health really is at risk. today we are seeking a temporary. restraining order to allow Miss Cox to. get the abortion that she needs now to. end her suffering and protect her. fertility second thing that Twain argues.

is that Miss Cox and her husband already. have two children and desperately want. more Miss Cox's current pregnancy. however has been diagnosed with full. Tricom 18 and all of her doctors have. told her delivery of this pregnancy will. be dangerous not having this abortion. puts Kate Cox's future fertility at risk. if she is denied an abortion and instead. forced to carry this pregnancy to term. her only options in Texas are an. induction or a C-section which both pose. serious rests to her future reproductive.

functions K Cox has already had two. C-sections so the likelihood is if she's. forced to carry this fetus she would. have a third C-section uter C-sections. can cause scarring and that scarring can. cause infertility and there's also a. risk of uterine rupture or that she ends. up with a hysterctomy in which case she. could not carry another child the only. question at issue today is whether a. trro is necessary to prevent further. injury to Miss Cox while this case goes. forward we believe that there can be no. doubt on this record that the answer is.

yes thank you your. honor and how does the State of Texas. respond thank you Mr. Stone well with respect to the temporary. restraining order your honor I have a a. few comments I'd like to the state says. that this case is still hypothetical the. Supreme Court has ruled that TR cannot. be used to obtain an advanced ruling on. the merits essentially Kate Cox is not. facing an immediate risk to her health.

or her life because planets have not. alleged that they are eligible for the. medical exception just on the face of. the pleading and in the text of the trro. itself the second thing they say is that. the standard is very clear so the. medical exception in texus is an. objective standard just like the. standard of care write in the law in. black and white when you can get an. exception to determine whether a person. qualifies for the medical exception a. physician must determine that they. qualify based on the reasonable Medical. judgement that's an objective standard.

the PLS are asking this court to change. that objective standard to a subjective. standard they argue that the Center for. Reproductive Rights and K Cox are trying. to change that standard on the Fly and. make it sort of much more fuzzy I also. want to talk about the expert. declaration we attached Dr scop Who you. heard them mention reviewed their. pleading in this case and submitted a. declaration stating that she does not. believe that they have sufficiently. alleged the elements of the medical. exception toch his abortion law just on.

the face what they're arguing about here. is really the Crux of these exceptions. cases how sick do you have to be how. much of a risk to your health does there. have to be for a doctor to say in my. reasonable medical judgment this woman. should have an abortion the TR is an. extraordinary relief it's meant to. maintain the status quo of the parties. and prevent an immediate and irreparable. harm and in this case the plists have. simply not shown that they meet that. standard for that reason this court. should deny. it.

is that all uh yes your honor thank you. and what does the lawyer for Cox say to. that like what's her response all right. Miss Dwayne thank you your honor a. couple points in response first they. argue that in fact the law is not clear. the state says that Miss Cox doesn't. Meet The Elements of the. exception but we don't know what the. state thinks those elements are it's too. vague doctors have not been able to. interpret it I read the statute Dr ksan.

reads the statute to say that a serious. risk of substantial impairment of Miss. Cox's reproductive functions would fall. within the medical exception if that is. not what the statute. means then the state after two years of. silence really ought to tell us the law. now says that doctors can use their. reasonable medical judgment to determine. whether or not a woman should have an. abortion because of an exception but. kx's lawyers point out and doctors fear. that the state is always going to be. able to find some medical expert who can.

go into court and say that medical. judgment was not reasonable and so. therefore doctors really are at risk of. prosecution in all of these cases yes a. physician has affirmed that this care is. medically necessary Miss Cox's condition. is rapidly deteriorating every day and. just by the Plain language of the. statute her condition Falls within the. exception whatever it is that that. exception means thank you all right. well as I said I spent a considerable.

amount of time. yesterday uh reading and preparing for. today and surprisingly I am going to. Grant the temporary restraining order. for M Cox Mr Cox and Dr Parson the judge. rules instantaneously right at the end. of the hearing and her words are really. pretty powerful the idea that Miss Cox. want wants desperately to be a parent.

and this law might actually cause her to. lose that ability is uh. shocking and. um would be a a genuine miscarriage of. justice and they show the power of a. pregnant woman like K Cox coming before. the court in this. way so I will be signing the order and.

it will be processed and sent out. today anything. else thank you your honor nothing from. the plaintiffs thank you very much good. luck everyone that concludes this. hearing and I'm going to shut down the. [Music]. zoom I have to say it really caught our.

attention when we saw the outcome here. because I thought hey this is Texas this. is a state that has very strict bands. how did this woman achieve this well the. first thing I should say is that this. lower court was in Travis County which. is Austin it's one of the most liberal. blue cities in Texas it's a blue dot and. a sea of red and it's a lower court so. yes this judge says that K Cox can have. an abortion but we know that this is not. yet the end of the story right okay so.

keep going with the story what happens. next Texas's attorney general Ken Paxton. who's famously anti-abortion very. conservative immediately appeals the. ruling and hours after the judge's. decision he sends letters to the. hospitals where Kate Cox's doctor has. admitting Privileges and writes that. even if Kate Cox is allowed to have this. abortion that will not ins slate her. doctor from prosecution so don't think. that we're not going to come after you. so basically threatening legal action of.

the doctor that would potentially. perform the procedure and we should. remind people here doctors and hospitals. can be criminally liable in these cases. so what does Kate do well Kate Cox knows. what an uphill battle this is going to. be and so she decides to leave the state. and have an abortion elsewhere we don't. know where but we do know that she's. left the state she's essentially saying. I'm going to go before the clock runs. out if I sit around and wait for this to. be resolved I may be at a point where I. can't even get an abortion in another. state it will be too late right and what.

happens with the legal case a new twist. in a Texas Woman's challenge to one of. the country's most restrictive abortion. laws the Texas Supreme Court blocks that. lower Court ruling in the ruling tonight. the court said that difficulties in. pregnancy even serious ones do not pose. the heightened risk to the mother that. the state's exceptions for a mother. whose life is in danger encompasses and. say the Lower Court ruling was a mistake. that K Cox in fact did not meet the. standard for an exception pregnancy this.

isn't somebody who's just said oh I'm. going to have anward this is somebody. who is in desperate need for all the. complications she's going through this. case was everywhere people were talking. about it abortion is Health Care period. people were debating it this is a case I. know women just like this I know two. women in very similar circumstances This. Woman's life is at risk the baby most. definitely is not going to survive and. her future fertility a woman who wants. to have a child that is jeopardized in. it lawyers say that in fact cases like.

coxes are actually fairly common and. there are other cases that are being. fought in court in a number of other. states tell me about some of those cases. one of the first places that came up was. in Louisiana where there was a very. prominent story about a woman who was. pregnant with a fetus that had no skull. and the state of Louisiana which again. is one of these really strict ban States. on abortion had exceptions where you. could get an abortion but this. particular condition known as a crania. that was not on the list of conditions.

so then the question becomes okay we're. going to add that condition but at what. point do you have to have something. broader like can you just incrementally. keep adding these different conditions. or do you have to answer the broader. case of like what does it mean to be. sick what makes a woman's life at risk. right that seems to be a very. problematic issue for the law and the. legislature right do you just keep. adding things how do you even no right. and since then lawyers for the center of. Reproductive Rights the people who filed. K Cox's case have filed other lawsuits.

so they are in Tennessee and Oklahoma. and Idaho and in another case in Texas. which has multiple women and tell me. about that case well the lead plaintiff. in that case is a woman named Amanda. zeroski she became pregnant after about. a year and a half of fertility. treatments very much a wanted pregnancy. then at 18 weeks her water broke which. really puts the fetus at risk the fetus. was unlikely to live but that fetus. still had what doctors were calling a. heartbeat so they told her that under. Texas law she could not have an abortion.

so she goes home and she becomes septic. and she goes back to the hospital and. she ends up being really sick and so. finally the doctors say okay there's no. longer a heartbeat and she's actually. facing death we're going to do this. abortion but she ends up with so much. scar tissue from that operation that one. of her Fallopian tubes is permanently. closed and it's unlikely that she will. be able to carry another child so it. sounds like the lead plaintive in this. Texas case is a very Vivid example of. this argument you're talking about right. the state law might seem black and white. might look neat on paper but it's not.

neat in real life because medical. decisions are fundamentally about. probabilities what if there's a 30%. chance you'll die is that enough or does. it have to be an 80% chance you'll die. right and the other thing to remember is. that medical situations can change so. quickly you can be fine one minute and. suddenly there's a real emergency risk. to your life and what their lawyers are. saying is that women across the country. are struggling with this question. doctors are struggling with this.

question we need Clarity on what exactly. are the exceptions but I guess I'm. wondering Kate what's ultimately the. point here I mean you said you know it's. to clarify exceptions but what's the end. goal like is it to get one of these. cases up to the Supreme Court you know. to find one precedent that could kind of. wave a legal wand for the whole country. I don't think that is the goal I think. the way to think about this is if you. think about the way conservatives went. after abortion after row they figured.

out pretty quickly that they were not. going to be able to as you say you know. wave some magic wand and get rid of it. across the country but what they did. instead was start proposing laws that. would limit the circumstances where you. could have an abortion this goes in the. opposite direction by making people. consider all the cases in which you. would need an abortion and in the same. way that anti-abortion groups change the. conversation around abortion by for. instance talking about partial birth. abortion and making people really.

uncomfortable with that idea all of. these cases around the exceptions are. changing the conversation about abortion. it's really shaking up how we've thought. about abortion for 50 years and really. how the anti-abortion movement has. taught us to think about abortion for 50. years for a really long time now people. have had this stereotype that women who. get abortions are teenagers and. irresponsible women who use abortion for. birth control the more we hear stories. like. the more that stereotype is being.

countered the other thing that's. changing is that for a really long time. pollsters have had us think about. abortion in terms of your either. pro-life or your pro-choice what we're. discovering is that there's a lot of. room in the middle and in fact in the. middle is where most voters are and. voters are starting to think about well. in what cases would I want someone to be. able to have an abortion these cases. around the exceptions are really what's. changing this Middle Ground and we've. seen of course in elections recently.

abortion being kind of a winner for. Democrats you know that the right to the. procedure is more or less something. people approve of that's exactly right. the whole dynamic around abortion has. changed we are in a very much different. place on public opinion than people. anticipated immediately post dos one. Poll for instance surveyed people in. these very strict band States and found. that people actually didn't know what. the law was but when you told them how. strict it was they wanted to add. exceptions and said they would support. ballot measures adding these exceptions.

for you know the life of the mother or. fatal fetal conditions rape incest the. other thing that polls have shown us is. that people who hear these stories are. more likely to support ballot measures. not just allowing exceptions but. establishing a right to abortion in. state. constitutions cases like K Cox's may. have only limited legal effect but the. stories that Kate Cox and women like her. are telling we've already seen they're.

having enormous effect on public opinion. over. [Music]. time Kate thank you thank you. [Music]. Sabrina. we'll be right.

back here's what else you should know. today on Wednesday the Supreme Court. agreed to rule on the availability of a. commonly used abortion pill the first. major abortion case that the court has. taken since it overturned the. constitutional right to the procedure. more than a year ago the Biden. administration had asked the justices to. intervene after the court of appeals for.

the fifth circuit favored curbing. distribution of the drug known as. mistone in a surprise ruling earlier. this year that involved skepticism about. the federal government's drug regulation. the move sets up a highstakes fight over. the pill which accounts for a. significant share of abortions in the. United States and could sharply curtail. access to the medication even in States. abortion is legal the Supreme Court did.

not set a date for argument but is. expected to issue a decision by the end. of its term in late. [Music]. June today's episode was produced by. Lindsay Garrison Jessica Chung and Mary. Wilson it was edited by Lisa chow and. Brendan clink BG fact checked by Susan. Lee contains original music by Marian. Lozano and Rowan Nimo and was engineered. by Chris Wood our theme music is by Jim.

brunberg and Ben Lanser of. [Music]. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Sabrina tavernes see you. [Music]. tomorrow.