The Walz-Vance Debate: Civility and Then a Clash

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. daily just 3 weeks after presidential. candidates Donald Trump and kamla Harris. engaged in a fiery and often hostile. debate their running mates JD Vance and. Tim Walls met for their own debate and. struck a very different. chord today my colleague political. correspondent Reed Epstein on why this.

debate was so different and what it. could mean for the. [Music]. race it's Wednesday October. [Music]. 2nd okay okay I need to way Reed Epstein. has the. largest barrel of M&M's that I've ever. SE seen you should have seen the bag of.

Sour Patch kits that I bought to get. through debate night to get through the. VP debate night you need some Sour Patch. Kids. yeah okay let's make a show let's make a. show Reed upstein Sabrina so it is now. 12:17 a.m. we are sitting in the studio. you have brought me some M&M's which I'm. very happy about and you know there's a. sort of conventional wisdom in. presidential elections that vice. presidential debates are not that.

important usually by this point in the. campaign you know voters have had a lot. of time to get to know both the top and. the bottom of the tickets they're pretty. well decided about how they feel about. the candidates but this year is. different we had one candidate drop out. Joe Biden KLA Harris the current VP. moved to the top of the democratic. ticket and very quickly chose her. running mate Tim Walls and on the. Republican side Donald Trump announced a. new running mate in JD Vance all of this. of course happened very quickly in the.

course of two months so going into the. debate what did we know about these two. VP candidates and and what they were. bringing to their tickets well let's. describe a little bit about who these. people are the first to be named to the. ticket was JD Vance the Ohio senator who. was first elected just two years ago. Vance wrote a bestelling book in 2016. hill bology hill bology and he ran for. the senate in 2022 he's relatively new. to National politics he has a relatively.

undistinguished Senate career as most. new Senators do relatively short and he. and he's only 40 years old which is. young to be on a national ticket how. would you describe him he Brooks No. Quarter he is a very smooth. articulator of the Trump agenda and. seems to always be fighting in a way. that clearly pleases the former. president and what about walls you know.

walls had a long career in Minnesota. politics and a long career as a public. school teacher before that former High. School football coach he grew up in. Nebraska he was named to the ticket in. part because he was good on television. articulating the Democratic agenda and. fighting back against some of the ideas. that animate Trump and JD Vance and he. of course coined the idea that they were. weird and that their ideas were weird at. a time when that idea spread across sort.

of the entire Democratic. Universe okay so both candidates were. picked in part because they're good. communicators for their side so in. tonight's debate what was their primary. Mission what was their job well their. first goal was to not make any mistakes. that can be weaponized against them the. second goal was to make a case against. the top of the opposing ticket okay and. the third thing they needed to do was to. make themselves appear as plausible and.

credible presidents of the United States. and commanders and Chief and that was. especially acute for JD Vance since his. running mate is 78 years old so how did. they begin we're going to begin tonight. with the Middle East Margaret thank you. Nora so the first question was about the. conflict in the Middle East between. Israel and Iran Governor walls if you. were the final voice in The Situation. Room would you support or oppose a.

preemptive strike by Israel on Iran you. have 2 minutes well thank you and thank. you for those joining at home tonight. let's keep and Tim Walls did not sound. at all sure of himself in his answer uh. Iran or I uh Israel's ability to be able. to defend itself is absolutely seem to. confuse Israel and Iran in describing. their actions white now the person. closest to them the to the Donald Trump. said he's unfit for the highest office.

that was Senator Vance he was sort of. slow in his manner of speech he's paused. a couple times def itself is absolutely. fundamental he used the word fundamental. four times in that opening answer I. notic that fundamental fundamental but. what's fundamental here is it did not. look great for him at the start. committed and as the vice president said. today is we will protect our forces and. our Allied Forces and there will be. consequences Governor your time is up. Senator Vance the same question and.

Vance seemed very polished I want to. answer the question but I want to. actually give an introduction to myself. a little bit because I recognize a lot. of Americans don't know who either one. of us are he opened with his biography. my mother required food assistance for. periods of her life my grandmother. required Social Security help to raise. me uh he sounded more folky and he. answered the question in a way that. walls didn't look it is up to Israel. what they think they need to do to keep. their country safe and we should by. saying that Israel is our Ally and will.

stand by whatever decision they make I. think that's the right approach to take. with the Israel question where walls. sort of talked and talked and didn't. really respond to the question yeah he. didn't land an answer whereas Vance did. Vance did and Vance also sounded like he. knew more about the situation in that. moment than walls did just by the nature. of his presentation well to that point. the economy is a top concern for voters. one of the first issues that really.

popped for me was this issue of the. economy and Vance kind of comes out of. the gate and really just does this thing. that Trump failed to do in the debate. with Harris which is you know put his. finger on this idea that the working. class had been shafted by the political. class in the United States right now. Donald Trump's economic plan is not just. a plan but it's also a record a lot of. those same economists attack lays out a. fairly in case about how all the experts.

that the government had relied on over. the years were wrong about international. trade but those same experts for 40. years said that if we shipped our. manufacturing base off to China we'd get. cheaper Goods they lied about that they. said if we chap shipped our industrial. base off to other countries to Mexico. and elsewhere it would make the middle. class stronger they were wrong about. that they and about manufacturing and. about engaging with Mexico and China and. talked about how that hurt the middle.

class in small towns like where he grew. up Donald Trump had the wisdom and the. courage to say to that bipartisan. consensus we're not doing it anymore. we're bringing American manufacturing. back we're unleashing American Energy. we're going to make more of our own. stuff and this isn't just Vance probably. had his strongest moment of the debate. in this. discussion he did a compelling job of. explaining Trump's vision in a way that.

really sanded the hard edges off of. trumpism in general this has to stop and. we're not going to stop it by listening. to experts we're going to stop it by. listening to Common Sense wisdom which. is what Donald Trump governed on Senator. your time up Governor W can you address. that and how did walls respond to that. if you're listening tonight and and you. want billionaires to get tax cuts you. heard what the numbers were um look I'm. a union guy on this I he gave the. standard response to Trump's economic.

plan from the Democrats give they said. that he would give tax cuts to. billionaires Donal Trump was the guy who. created the largest trade deficit in. American history with China and he. talked about Trump losing a trade war. with China when he was president I I'm. not a guy who wanted to ship things. overseas but I understand he didn't. really engage that much in fans's. argument that the experts led us down. this path but he tried to make an. argument against Trump's economic. policies in general and he kind of was.

struggling I mean he doesn't have a. great case to make because inflation is. high and housing prices have risen and. you know the economy is generally a weak. point for Democrats it's a weak point. but it's one that where they're getting. better but walls did not make a crisp. case on their behalf here so Vance. really looked on stage like he just was. kind of breezing along and you know he. was delivering these arguments that were. really the Republicans best issues he. was doing them well and you know just.

generally he was owning the stage walls. wasn't really breaking through at all. until you got to now to the issue of. Reproductive Rights the issue of. abortion which you and I were watching. this together read it was about at the. 44 minute Mark 44 minutes almost exactly. Midway through was when the first. question about abortion came up what the. bill says but look this this issue is. what's on everyone's mind this is an. issue that the Harris campaign wants.

injected into the bloodstream of every. conversation Donald Trump put this all. into motion he brags about how great it. was that he put the judges in and. overturned Row versus weight 52 years of. personal autonomy and walls did quite. well here the fact of the matter is how. can we as a nation say that your life. and your rights as basic as the right to. control your own body is determined on. geography he talked about how the Trump.

argument that this is an issue left for. the states means that human rights are. different depending on what state you. live in there's a young woman named. Amber Thurman she happened to be in. Georgia a restrictive State because of. that she had to travel a long distance. to North Carolina to try and get her. care Amber Thurman died he talked about. women who have died or become Gravely. ill because they didn't have access to.

health care that had been available. before The Supreme Court overturned Row. versus Wade and he made this case that. healthc care decisions are best left to. women and the doctors that treat them. what about Vance what about his response. senator may I respond to that first of. all Governor I agree with you Amber. Thurman should still be alive and there. are a lot of people who should still be. alive and I certainly wish that she was. Vance gave what was probably the most. effective response available to him.

given his and Trump's positions on. abortion that's why Donald Trump and I. are committed to pursuing pro- family. policies making child care more. accessible making fertility he talked. about giving women options to continue. pregnancies and and ways to help the. Republicans be pro- family I want us to. make it easier for moms to afford to. have babies I want it to make it easier. for young families to afford a home so. they can afford a place to raise that. family and I think there's so much that.

we can do which is not exactly been. their strong suit and Reed what did you. make of Vance's response though I mean. it felt like a bit of a slight of hand. that he was doing kind of like he was. performing a magic trick he was saying. on the one hand I kind of feel for women. on this issue but I really support IVF. you know he was kind of doing this. double speak in a way well and he was. trying. to explain Donald Trump's position more. than he was his own position he said it.

is a matter left for the states to. decide he said the proper way to handle. this as messy as democracy sometimes is. is to let voters make these decisions. let the to let voters make these. decisions for themselves and let the. states set their own abortion policy we. can be a big and diverse country where. we respect people's freedom of. conscience and make the country more. probaby and pro family but please and it. was an exchange that. really did not let him get away with.

these are women's decisions to make. about their healthare decisions and the. Physicians who know best when they need. to do this trying to D inance for the. first 45 minutes of the debate had been. in command of the event and once this. discussion shifted to. abortion it was Vance who struggled to. explain the policies of his ticket and. walls who was on. offense it marked a shift in this debate.

that we saw play out over the second. [Music]. half we'll be right. back so Reed you said that the tide of. the debate really changed with the. abortion discussion right about. Midway where did it go next what stood. out to you in that second.

half welcome back to the CBS News vice. presidential debate we want to turn now. to America's gun violence epidemic you. know the first moment of the second half. was a discussion about gun control and. gun violence Governor you have two. minutes well I think all the parents. watching tonight this is this your. biggest nightmare look I got a I got a. 17-year-old and uh and he witnessed a. shooting at a community center playing. volleyball those things don't leave you. and walls introduced this story that.

he's told a couple times about his. 17-year-old son witnessing a shooting. while playing volleyball in a community. center in Minnesota it was a pretty Raw. Story it was a and as he said this you. could see Vance Flinch a little bit M. and for all the preparations and the. practice Vance had not prepared himself. for this moment Senator Tim first of all. I didn't know that your 17-year-old. witnessed a shooting and I'm sorry about. that and I hope okay Christ have mercy.

uh it is it is awful and he said he. didn't know that Gus walls had witnessed. a shooting and it was a moment of. humanity that we don't often see in. these situations it was Vance as a. father not in the way where he talked. about his own kids to make a political. point but a way you could see him having. real empathy for Wall's son in a way. that hadn't come across in any of the. rest of the policy debates it was a. fascinating. look at how Vance dealt with a real life.

situation but then let's turn now to the. top contributor to inflation the high. cost of housing and rent there was a. discussion about housing there was a. discussion about Federal lands build. houses in the same federal land there. was sort of more about immigration blame. immigrants for higher housing prices the. discussion was much more policy based. and it got very in the weeds and wonky. yeah I was. surprised at just how much policy was.

there it's like I felt like I hadn't. heard it in a long time we're so used to. Trump with his own kind of gravitational. force and those debates sound different. this sounded like an old school. political debate where people talked. about policy and you know were civil to. one it was less about the personalities. of the figures on stage than it was. about what they would do in office. exactly.

I mean it struck me that Vance was very. good at repackaging and. repurposing Trump's message I mean he. kind of put it through this like you. know civility normalization machine and. it popped out and it sounded pretty good. I mean Vance is very skilled at making. Trump sound reasonable and making his. ideas come across in a way that don't. sound perhaps as scary or sharp edged As.

Trump does when he sort of as a blunt. force instrument delivers them as the. only possible solution and anyone who. says anything different is wrong and. anti-American right but he could only go. so far let's talk about the state of. democracy the top issue for Americans. after the economy and inflation so where. did Vance hit up against the limits of. being able to sell Trump's policies in. the same place that a lot of Republicans.

find themselves at odds with reality and. that's the 2020 election Senator Vance. you have said you would not have. certified the last presidential election. would you again seek to challenge this. year's election results he was asked if. he would seek to challenge this year's. presidential election results even if. every governor in America certifies them. at the state level look what president. Trump has said is that there were. problems in 2020 and my own belief is is. that we should fight about those issues.

debate those issues peacefully in the. Public Square inance tried to Pivot and. it's kamla Harris saying that rather. than debate and persuade her fellow. Americans she'd like to censor people. who engage in misinformation I think. that is a much bigger threat to. democracy than anything that we've seen. in this. country really answer the question he. said censorship is a bigger threat to. democracy than Donald Trump saying. protesters should peacefully Pro protest. the election Governor well I've enjoyed.

tonight's debate and I think there was a. lot of commonality here and I'm I'm. sympathetic to misspeaking on things and. I think I might have with uh with the. senator but there's one there's one. though that this this one is troubling. to me and I say that because I think we. need to tell the story and walls didn't. buy this for a minute 140 police. officers were beaten at the capital that. day he talked about January 6 protesters. in Minnesota a group gathered on the. state capital grounds in St Paul and. said we're marching to the governor's.

residence and there may be casualties. the only person there was my son and his. dog who was rushed out crying by State. Police not just in Washington but coming. after his home in St Paul Minnesota when. Mike Pence made that decision to certify. that election that's why Mike Pence. isn't on this stage he said at one point. if Mike Pence had not certified the. election he would still be Trump's. running mate today yeah and then walls. asked the question that JD fance is. unable to answer the election I would.

just ask that did he lose the 2020. election which is did Trump lose the. 2020 election Tim I'm focused on the. future did kamla Harris censor Americans. from speaking their mind in the wake of. doesn't answer it he says he's focused. on the future and he tries to Pivot back. to asking did kamla Harris sensor. Americans from speaking their minds. about covid in 2020 he totally Dodges. that is a d that is a damning non-answer.

has she it's a damning non- answer for. you to not talk about censorship. obviously and walls points that out to. everyone watching and he called it a. damning. non-answer and Vance tried to save. himself by saying it was damning for. walls not to talk about censorship but. that wasn't what the question was about. and frankly is less of a threat to. democracy than the question of free and. fair elections but this whole exchange. really Illustrated the red lines that.

nobody in Trump's world can cross which. are you can't say that Trump lost the. election you can't blame Trump for. January 6th you can't say that he. incited the riot and so it was a very. skilled moment from walls who didn't. look particularly skilled for much of. the night to pose that question to Vance. knowing that it was one that Vance. couldn't answer and that was the last. big moment of the debate. and thank you both for participating in.

the only vice presidential debate of. this election cycle and what did you. make of that moment you know I think. this is the moment that we'll remember. from this debate Vance had spent at this. point an hour and a half ay answering. most of the questions that came across. and the ones that were. trickier he sort of talked his way. through and then he got what might have. been the easiest question of the night. who won the last election and he's not.

able to answer it mhm you know that idea. that he is not saying everything that he. knows or hiding something or altering. his remarks to please someone else is a. very dangerous proposition in politics. because it suggests that he's not. leveling or being straight with. people and if Vance has that stripped. from him at this stage that he can't be. trusted on the basic question of.

democracy it's a difficult thing for him. to overcome on other issues but does. this have an effect electorally I mean. are undecided voters actually watching a. vice presidential debate probably not. but that moment is as we speak being cut. into ads that the Harris campaign will. be showing to people as soon as. Wednesday morning morning and even.

though the Harris campaign and Democrats. have not pushed democracy to the. Forefront of their campaign just because. voters tend to be more motivated by. issues like health care and. abortion the idea that you can't trust. JD Vance to tell you the truth I think. is going to be one that they make. Central to the aftermath of this debate. this strikes to his honesty and his.

truthfulness in a way that can be very. damaging and this debate like the last. one likely won't produce any major shift. in the polls that we see in the next. couple. weeks you have to remember this is an. election on the margins and we're really. talking about you know a couple 100,000. voters in the seven Battleground States. moving one way or the other that will. will determine who the next president is.

you know tens of millions of people will. have watched this debate and 70 million. people watched the last debate but these. candidates to win the election need to. talk to just a tiny slice of Voters in. just a few. States and those are the ones whose. judgment will determine the future of. the country. [Music].

Reed it's late it's very late thank you. for talking I'm going to bed good night. good. [Music]. night we'll be right back.

here's what else you should know. today on Tuesday Iran fired about 180. ballistic missiles at Israel in what it. called a retaliation for Israel's. surprise assassination on Friday of. Hassan nasala the leader of Hezbollah a. group that is backed by Iran the killing. of the longtime foe of Israel and the. United States. shocked the Middle East and was seen as.

a major victory for. Israel the missile attack sent millions. of Israelis into bomb shelters but. appeared to inflict little damage above. all the air strikes upended the. Assumption among Israelis that the. country's increasingly Brazen approach. toward Iran and its allies would deter. Iran from attacking Israel.

and tens of thousands of unionized Dock. Workers from Maine to Texas have gone on. strike stranding cargo at many of the. country's busiest ports and potentially. disrupting the American supply chain The. Dock Workers whose contract expired on. Monday are demanding a 62% increase in. pay a number that Port operators have so.

far refused to. meet finally Mr President on behalf of. the entire Biden family and the American. people happy 100th birthday 19 months. after entering hospice for what many. feared would be his final days former. President Jimmy Carter has turned 100. years old becoming the first US. president to reach that milestone. Jimmy thank you for your friendship your.

example and for always finding new ways. to remind us that we are all created in. God's image happy birthday to celebrate. the occasion you've had a heck of a life. and you're surrounded by people who love. you several former presidents paid. tribute to Carter on Tuesday may God. bless you in your final years may you. have peace of mind and peace in your. heart for for his part Carter marked the.

day in the backyard of his home in. Plains Georgia where four F-18 fighter. jets flew overhead in his. honor today's episode was produced by. Stella tan Olivia Nat will Reed and Alex. Stern with help from Mo zadii it was. edited by Devin Taylor. contains original music by Dan Powell.

and Marian Lozano and was engineered by. Chris Wood and Alysa Moxley our theme. music is by Jim brunberg and Ben Lanser. of. Wonderland that's it for the daily I'm. Sabrina tavernes see you tomorrow. [Music].