The Ukrainian Peace Plan Written by ... Russia?

From the New York Times, I'm Rachel. Abrams [music]. and this is The Daily. >> [music]. >> When a US peace plan to end the war in. Ukraine was leaked last week, it looked to many like it had been. written by Russia. And to a large degree, it had [music]. been. And it sparked a global outcry. that has forced American officials to. backtrack, [music] revise, and rethink. their approach in the days since.

Today, my colleagues Kim [music] Barker and. David Sanger. on the backroom process that led to the. controversial [music] plan and why it. comes at a vulnerable moment for. Ukraine's leader. >> [music]. [music]. >> It's Wednesday, November 26th.

Before we start, I just have one. question, Kim. What is that hat? Oh, this is like this crazy hat that is made. of feathers. I I love it. I I had lost. it for a long time and I just found it. So, that's the hat I'm wearing now. Oh. my god, it looks it looks great. I. couldn't tell if it was actually like. one of those Soviet type hats that I is. like very furry and very warm, so. >> It'll be coming with me back to Kyiv. Amazing. It's cold there, man. I've.

heard. Kim Barker, welcome to the show. Thanks. very much for having me. So, there has been a lot of news about. the war in Ukraine this past week and a. possible peace plan that might actually. end it. But, this is not the first time. that we have heard about plans to end. the war and it is kind of hard to tell. at this point what is real movement and. what is not. So, we're turning to you to. try to understand what's happened. You've spent a lot of time in Ukraine, you've covered the war.

What do you make of what has happened in. the past few days? Yeah, it's been very confusing and a bit. of whiplash in Ukraine as well with what. happened last Thursday when this. 28-point peace plan was leaked. And all of a sudden. everybody in Ukraine is looking at this. peace plan and they're looking at every. single point and saying to themselves, this sounds an awful lot like Russian. talking points, like everything Russia. ever wanted. But then at the same time,

they're hearing that this is an American. plan and there's a lot of pressure for. Ukraine to accept it right away. >> Mhm. And you have to understand the. situation on the ground right now. You've got people who are very tired of. this war going on for years and I think. a lot of Ukrainians, if you were to ask. them, they would say, yes, let's get. some sort of peace deal that's not too. bad for Ukraine, right? They would like. to get something. But, at the same time, you've got this. issue along the front lines where you've.

got not enough troops and then you've. got on a nightly basis this barrage of. missiles and drones coming in and. attacking civilian targets. Given all of that, it makes total sense. why Ukrainians would be so desperate to. end the war. But, you also mentioned this peace plan. that was leaked that has seemed to, at. least initially, heavily favor Russia. And I just wonder, given that, how did. Ukrainians react to it? I mean, universally, the word that we heard over.

and over again was capitulation. I heard. it from people who were waiting for. their relatives, their dead relatives to. be taken out of this building that had. been hit by missiles a couple days. before. Capitulation. >> [snorts]. >> And disgust. And the idea that like, no, we have lost too much blood. The idea. that we're just going to give up. everything we've been fighting for for. nothing? Mhm. No. And also, at the same time, you have to. understand that this proposal is coming. along when Ukrainian President Volodymyr.

Zelenskyy could not be in a weaker. position politically because of this. corruption scandal, you know, that's. unfolded in the last couple of weeks. So, tell us about that. Where does that. story start? Well, that story starts. about 15 months ago when an. investigation called Operation Midas. started into a company called. Energoatom, which is this a nuclear. power giant in Ukraine. And it's a state-owned company. And the country's anti-corruption.

agencies have been investigating this. company for about 15 months. They've got. wiretaps of like more than a thousand. hours and they're basically looking at. key allies of President Zelenskyy who. are accused of embezzling a hundred. million dollars from this company and it. first comes out into public knowledge on. Monday morning, November 10th, when the. country's anti-corruption agencies. unveiled the series of videos outlining.

a huge corruption scheme and their. investigation. And then over the next two days, [music]. these videos unroll every few hours. giving more and more salacious details. And they feature a detective who's very. well-lit, very well-produced and you're. listening to it and you're feeling like, oh, this is dramatic, something's. happening here.

And then you go into these sort of like. wiretapped conversations. of these people who have given. themselves code names like Rocket and. Sugar Man and Che Guevara and the. Professor. And you learn through these videos that. some of the money that these guys are. making is coming from money that was. supposed to be spent to build shelters,

to protect things like nuclear power. substations and power transformers and. things like that from Russian missiles. and drones. >> [laughter]. >> And each episode ends with something. like, you know, more to come and to be. continued. And it really has got Ukrainians glued. to their phones.

So, it sounds like basically, if I have. this right, this anti-corruption agency. is releasing almost like a mini-series. about the scandal to the public? Yeah, I. mean, I made that joke in the very. beginning to an editor. I'm like, it. kind of feels like Netflix and then. started looking at all the sort of. social media that was being put out. there and it's exactly what Ukrainians. were saying. You had like the memes of. Bill Hader eating popcorn waiting for. the next thing to drop and you had this. sense that, oh my god, is this going to. actually reach the president? Is this.

going to reach the president's chief of. staff? Who is going to be on these tapes. next? I'm obviously no expert in Ukrainian. anti-corruption investigations, but at. least in the United States, that kind of. announcement would be a bit unusual. Why. would they release videos like this as. opposed to just, I don't know, a press. conference? Yeah, I mean, in the states, anywhere really, you would have a lawyer. standing behind a lectern and like. reading out the charges or maybe they. would just be filed in paper. You. wouldn't have the sense of like, we're.

going to have a promotional series of. videos around our investigation before. we've even brought anybody to court, right? It's very unusual. I mean, one of. the goals clearly could be to inoculate. the agencies against any sort of. blowback from the president's office. They get the people on their side. They. get an audience and that seemed to be. happening over the first couple of days. Tell me more about that. What was the. reaction from Ukrainians to these. videos? They were horrified. People are making. money off of shelters that are supposed.

to protect us from Russian missile and. drone attack, especially when you have. us going into a winter right now where. Mhm. it's pretty touch-and-go with the. power situation. Russia has really been. targeting all these places that generate. power and you've got blackouts going. pretty much around the clock. So, there's a sense of indignation hearing. these people, hearing these men talk on. these wiretaps about making money off of. this. It's gross, it's disgusting and.

Ukrainians were quite upset. You know, Zelenskyy rode into office on. anti-corruption pledges, right? And. there is a war. There's a war that means. that it's martial law, you can't elect. somebody new and this is their. president. They want the country to hold. together. But, for the first time, you. had this sense that opposition was. forming against Zelenskyy. You had the. sense that the political parties were. getting together. There were calls for a. vote of no confidence in parliament.

What is Zelenskyy's response been to the. scandal? I mean, Zelenskyy's response to. the scandal has been, look, if there's. anybody, you know, guilty of corruption. in this administration or anywhere, they. should pay in court. Anybody who commits. corruption needs to face the. consequences, right? But, he has not. been specific about these charges. He's. not talked about his allies who have. been accused of this. His chief of staff, after these.

accusations first appeared, disappeared. for more than 5 days, which was highly. unusual. So, it felt like the. administration was just kind of going. quiet, seeing if it was going to blow. over and then they would figure it out. But, it was not blowing over. It was not. blowing over at all. It was snowballing. until this peace plan leaked. And this. peace plan was very beneficial to. Russia. In fact, it looked as if Russia. had written some of the proposals.

Among them, Ukraine would never be able. to join NATO, ever. Ukraine would permanently have to have a. smaller military. Ukraine would have to cede territory. that Russia hadn't even won yet. All of these being non-starters, basically, for Ukraine. >> All of these are non-starters, especially the idea of having a smaller. military. If you look at the history of. how Russia has been trying to take a. bite of Ukraine there, a bite of Ukraine. here, right? Like, it's it's not going.

to happen. People are not going to. accept that. But, also, at the same. time, there was a lot of pressure coming from. America, like, "Make this deal, sign. this deal, accept this peace, and like, let's move on." And you have. this sense that maybe this peace plan. was coming out, maybe it was being. pushed because Zelenskyy looked so weak. that he had no choice but to accept it. But, that is not what happened. Instead,

it was the opposite. Zelenskyy came out, and he's returning. to his. early wartime president sort of. disposition, where he's doing these. videos, and he's very serious, and he's. telling the country that. They have a choice right now. It's one. of the toughest choices they've had. Are.

we going to sacrifice our dignity, or. are we going to be willing to lose this. key partner? That partner being the. United States. >> [music]. >> And instead of being in the very weak. position that Zelenskyy had been in just. a day before, even hours before,

you have Zelenskyy. >> [music]. >> as defiant leader, and the country. rallying around what he is saying, which. is, >> [music]. >> "We're not going to simply give in.". But, it still has left Zelenskyy in a. really hard position, because he's. facing dealing with [music] this peace. plan, dealing with America, whose. support he would like to keep, and. dealing with the Trump administration, and wanting to look like they're playing. ball, >> [music]. >> like they're trying to negotiate in good. faith to get a deal to end this war,

which is what the Trump administration. really, really wants. But, he's got to. somehow do that without sacrificing. everything. [music]. And that is why Zelenskyy finds himself. between a rock and a hard place. >> [music]. [music]. >> After the break, David Sanger explains. where this peace [music] plan actually. came from, and the diplomatic scramble it set off. >> [music].

>> We'll be right back. >> [music]. >> David, we just heard from Kim Barker. about how this leaked peace plan was so. poorly received in Ukraine, because it. seemed like it might as well have been. written by Russia. It seemed so. incredibly lopsided. Is that your take? Well, certainly that's my take, and.

after it leaked, the first thing I wrote. was. it read like it had been drafted in the. Kremlin. And the reason for that is. parts of it, it turned out, essentially had been, because they. talked to the Russian representative as. they began to to develop this weeks. before they got to the Ukrainians. And so, the first draft of it was. incredibly pro-Russian, and basically. gave Vladimir Putin everything he. wanted. Now, when you go and you probe.

with the administration, "How did this. happen?". Their immediate answer is, "Well, we. were trying to replicate. our success in Gaza.". Now, Rachel, you remember that, cuz we. talked about it a lot, and you and I. were in Israel together when that. agreement came to fruition, and the. hostages were released, and that also. was a 20-point plan, right? And they had. put it together by sitting down with the. Israelis, and getting a list of their.

demands and their red lines and all. that, and then, through cutouts and. representatives, basically doing the. same thing with Hamas, and then going. back to try to force compromises in. certain areas. And so, soon after the. president returned from Israel, Jared Kushner, his son-in-law, who the. president had called in on this one. again, and who had played a central role. in the Gaza negotiations, and Steve.

Witkoff, his envoy for everything, and J.D. Vance, the vice president, and. Marco Rubio's got two important titles. here, secretary of state and national. security advisor, all met together, and. basically, they argued to the president, "Hey, let's try with Ukraine and Russia. exactly what we did in Gaza.". And the president gave them a green. light, in part because, Rachel, he. didn't have any other options. So, they started with having a Russian.

representative, Harvard Business School. educated head of Russia's sovereign. wealth fund, come to Miami and meet with. Witkoff and with Jared Kushner, and basically laid out Russia's. concerns. A lot of that was in the. document. And it wasn't until weeks. later. that they began to sit and talk to the. Ukrainians. They never talked to the. Europeans, and then, of course, the document. leaked. And as soon as it did, it.

triggered that uproar. The Europeans. felt cut out by President Trump yet. again, the Ukrainians felt betrayed yet. again, and the Russians were celebrating. because the early version of the. document looked like their wish list. Okay, so Ukraine was involved in. negotiation, but the ultimate product. here was really one-sided and favored. Russia. Is that kind of another. similarity here between what's happening.

with Ukraine and the Gaza deal? Meaning. specifically that the administration, at. the end of the day, is really trying to. force a plan through that heavily favors. one side. Well, you're certainly right, Rachel, that the Ukrainians came in and were. consulted, but they came in very late. It was only about a week before. the actual document leaked out. And so, the version that we all saw last week. really didn't reflect the Ukrainian.

point of view. Now, there two ways to interpret that. One is that they had had enough time to. begin to go back and forth and amend the. document. That's the version of events. that administration officials have put. out. The other way to look at it is that this. administration fundamentally has run out. of patience and sympathy for the. Ukrainians here. That the president believes that they're. going to have to give up land sooner or. later, so they might as well just get.

accustomed to that. And of course, you've got some split. views within the administration. Vice President Vance made clear through. the entire campaign he doesn't. particularly care about Ukraine. He just. wants to make sure the United States. gets out, isn't sucked into another. forever war. Marco Rubio, on the other hand, as a. senator, voted to aid Ukraine, and spoke out. quite vociferously about the need to. defend Ukrainian democracy. It was only.

after he entered the administration that. he began to adopt President Trump's. view, as you would expect an. administration official would. You know, it's sort of interesting, though, because the way that you described Marco. Rubio's stance, at least initially, vis-à-vis Ukraine, was more of a. traditional foreign policy approach, like not that much different from Biden, in the sense that he was in favor of. supporting Ukraine. And now you're. saying that he has switched his.

attitude, essentially, and adopted this. very much more America first, get out of. foreign entanglements at any cost that. we have seen from J.D. Vance and other. people in the administration. I'm not sure that's entirely right, Rachel, because Marco Rubio's true views. seem to pop out when this document. leaked last week. And all of a sudden, his first reaction to it was, "Oh, this. is just an initial set of talking. points." I think he said at one point,

"It's a living document. It's going to. change." Right? It's just a starting. point. And yet, the president took a very. different position. Trump said, "This is a great plan. It's. great for Ukraine. Zelenskyy has until. Thanksgiving Day to agree to it, or go. off and he's going to fight his his own. little wars again," hinting without. saying. that he might be doing that without much. American support. So, it was becoming pretty evident to.

Secretary Rubio. that this negotiation had somehow. escaped his hands. But, Rubio clearly felt the need to. seize this back. And suddenly, on. Saturday morning, we heard that he was. getting on his plane on an unscheduled. trip to go to Geneva. and meet both the Europeans and the. Ukrainians. to try to put down the incredible uproar. that the leak of this early draft had.

created. >> Mhm. Because the Europeans felt like. this draft of a peace accord not only. sold Ukraine down the river, it sold their own security down the. river. And you heard that directly from. the German Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, who said outright, "This isn't just. about Ukraine. This is about the. security of Europe. It's about the. security of NATO nations." The Europeans. clearly see this as much more. existential than the conflict in Gaza.

That's absolutely right. Okay, so what happens next? So on Sunday, there were 11 hours of. meetings. Withkoff is there. Jared. Kushner is there. It's pretty heated from what we hear, particularly with the Ukrainians. But magically, the 28-point plan turned. into a 20-point plan. Mhm. Suddenly gone from this was a limit. on the Ukrainian military to be no more.

than 600,000 troops. Suddenly gone from. this was that NATO troops could never be. based in Ukraine. So he clearly was. trying to wrench this document back to. the middle. in an effort to save the peace process. But along the way, he may have lost the. Russians. >> [snorts]. >> And that is the big question here, right, David? Because as you and I have. discussed on the show multiple times. before, Russia has been extremely. consistent since the start of the war.

about what it wants and what it would. consider victory, and they haven't. wavered from that at all. So the idea. that a new peace plan that would be more. favorable to Ukraine coming out of. Geneva, that almost seems like it would. be a non-starter, right? So you have. almost have to wonder, what is the point. or the good of this plan at all? Well, clearly the president believed. that by setting up this Thanksgiving. deadline. that he was going to rush something. through and he would have an agreement.

And a cynic might say that the president. was interested in speed because he wants. to add an agreement between Russia and. Ukraine to that list for the Nobel Peace. Prize that he believes he's been. nominated for. for next year. And he regularly made the absolutely. correct point that. it is one of the great human tragedies. that we're losing thousands of.

Ukrainians and Russians. every single week here, and he just. wants to get to something that will stop. the killing. The question is, at what. cost? And how much pain does he believe Putin. will put up with? David, this is. reminding me of a characteristic that we. often see with President Trump, which is. that he often likes to tout a victory. with the details to be worked out later. And. that seems like it is maybe a dynamic. that is playing out here, because it.

feels like from everything you are. saying, the goal is to end the war in. Ukraine by hook or by crook, and not. necessarily to uphold any particularly. strongly held principles in the process. Is that fair? That's exactly right, Rachel. If you. think about how former President Biden. talked about this war from the beginning. of the invasion, he always said, "We're here to. reestablish. the rules of the post-World War II.

order. That countries don't invade each other's. borders. That countries don't take each. other over. That this era of, you know, land wars in Europe we were done with at. the end of World War II.". President Trump doesn't talk in those. terms. >> [snorts]. >> He says, "Just tell me what it will take. to get it. because this is a power competition. between Ukraine and Russia. Russia's got. nuclear weapons. It's a much larger. country. It's going to win any power.

contest. So let's just define where. those borders are and acknowledge that. it's the stronger state.". Now, we have to open up the possibility here. that clunky as this entire process over. the past couple of days has been, that President Trump. might actually be able to capitalize on. the fact that they have something on the. table here, that the Russians and the Ukrainians are. finally engaged to get to something that.

resembles a ceasefire, if not a full. peace agreement. And the question is, can he. properly assess when the Russians have. suffered enough that the pain is too. great, or when the Ukrainians have come to the. conclusion at a moment of weakness for. them because of the corruption scandals, because they're losing territory, that they're better to cut a deal.

He thinks this may be the moment, and. maybe he's [music] right. We all have to hope so. But this certainly has been an example. of [music] pretty awkward diplomacy. Maybe from here it gets better. [music]. David, thank you so much. Thanks, Rachel. >> [music].

>> On Tuesday evening, Russia launched a. deadly barrage of missiles and drones at. the Ukrainian capital as Kremlin. officials signaled they would resist. changes negotiated by Ukraine to. President Trump's peace plan. The president, meanwhile, said he'd. backed off the Thanksgiving Day deadline. and that his envoy, Steve Witkoff, would. be traveling soon to Moscow to meet with. the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. We'll be [music] right back.

Here's what else you need to know today. The six Democratic members of Congress. who recorded a video telling troops they. could refuse illegal orders said they. were being investigated by the FBI. >> [music]. >> The group, which included veterans of. the military and the CIA, said the. bureau had requested interviews with. them. Though it's unclear what, if any. laws, [music] the videos could have. violated. In a statement, the four House. members said that the president was,

quote, "using the FBI as a tool to. intimidate and harass members of. Congress." [music]. And. Dr. Ralph Abraham, a [music] critic of. vaccines who's called the COVID. vaccinations dangerous, has been named. second in command at the CDC. >> [music]. >> As Louisiana surgeon general, Abraham. had ordered the state to stop promoting. vaccinations. And his appointment was. not announced [music] by the CDC at all. Instead, it appeared on an internal. database with a start date of November.

23rd. Dr. Abraham's views on some issues align. with those of Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., including when he endorsed. the unproven link. >> [music]. >> between taking Tylenol during pregnancy. and autism. >> [music]. >> Today's episode produced by Moot Saedi, Alex Stern, and Anna Foley. It was edited by Maria Byrne with. [music] help from Brendan Klinkenberg. and Paige Cowett. Contains music by Marion Lozano and Dan.

Powell. And was engineered [music] by Chris. Wood. Special thanks to Alexandra Mikulichan. and Sasha Duckworth. >> [music]. >> That's it for the daily. I'm Rachel. Abrams. See you tomorrow. >> [music].