The Trumps Take the Stand

from New York Times I'm Michael babbaro. this is the. [Music]. daily today of the many charges and. lawsuits filed against former president. Trump perhaps the most personal is. playing out in a courtroom in New York. City in a case that could end in him. losing control of his best known. buildings and paying hundreds of. millions of dollars in.

fines over the past few days my. colleague Jonah bramwit has been inside. the courtroom watching as Trump's. children and Trump himself have taken. the. stand it's Wednesday November. 8th Jonah thank you for taking a break. in your busy schedule of being in the. courtroom I'm very happy to be here so. Jonah you spent the past several days in.

a New York City courtroom where for the. first time the adult sons of Donald. Trump and Donald Trump himself have all. taken the stand and testified and we're. going to get to their testimony but I. want to start by asking you to just. describe this case because there are so. many cases against Donald Trump this is. one of many and it's a civil case which. is probably why I think it's gotten a. lot less attention than all the criminal. cases against Trump just tell about this.

case so this case was brought by New. York's attorney general Leticia James. James ran for office in 2018 and she ran. for office talking about Donald Trump a. lot of the time right she's a Democrat. and she made clear he was in her sites. that's exactly right and so she takes. office in 2019 and shortly thereafter. Michael Cohen who's a former fixer for. Trump he testifies in front of Congress. and I don't know if you remember this. kind of from the fog of the Trump.

presidency I do but he testifies about. some of the conduct that Donald Trump. has undertaken that might be of interest. to Congress and that includes. manipulating the values of his property. to get favorable loans from Banks from. insurers and so with tis James in office. good morning those comments quickly turn. into an investigation I am announcing. that today we are filing a lawsuit. against Donald Trump and that. investigation turns into a lawsuit that. she files in 2022 against Trump and. against his adult sons and against his.

company the complaint demonstrates that. Donald Trump falsely inflated his net. worth by billions of dollars to unjustly. enrich himself and to cheat the system. thereby cheating all of us and broadly. she's accusing him of exaggerating the. values of a lot of his properties his. hotels his apartment buildings his golf. clubs and there's some really good kind. of specific details in here so for. example take Mr Trump's Triplex you know.

the triplex apartment in Trump Tower on. Fifth Avenue one of the properties at. issue is Trump Tower he has this Triplex. apartment in Trump Tower right now this. number is burned into my brain his. Triplex apartment is. 10,996 Ft nice big apartment that's. right but for years Mr Trump represented. that his apartment spanned more than. 30,000 sare ft Trump was saying it was. three times that big on the financial. statement that was the value of it as if.

it were 30,000 ft and based on that. inflated square footage the value of the. apartment in 2015 in 2016 was. $327 Million to this date no apartment. in New York City has ever sold for close. to that amount tripling the size of the. apartment for purposes of the valuation. was intentional and deliberate fraud not. an honest mistake so this is a great. example of what he's accused of doing.

RIT large he's exaggerating the number. of square feet in the apartment he's. valuing it as if it were three times as. big as it actually is and that's the. number that goes into the financial. statement and those financial statements. go to Banks and insurers to what end. overall the Attorney General says by. doing this the loan terms were better. the insurance terms were better it gave. him favorable treatment from those. companies that he was doing business. with and she's asking for really serious. punishments out of this she's asking for.

at least a $250 million fine wow quarter. of a billion dollars that's right she's. asking that Trump be permanently barred. from doing business in New York wait I. want to pause on that because that's a. very big deal Trump's business the Trump. organization is based in New York he. owns a ton of big buildings in New York. that would be a huge deal this case. strikes at the foundation of Donald. Trump's Personal Image Public Image this. guy is a builder a businessman a New. York real estate developer and this case.

directly targets that right sounds like. this case seeks to basically separate. those buildings that Empire from the man. itself literally and if James gets her. way by the end of this case Donald Trump. won't be able to do business in New York. well so what happens as this case moves. from allegation toward court case and. closer and closer to a trial so because. of the nature of this case the nature of. the law that it's brought under and the. kinds of consequences that James has. asking for there's only a judge in this.

case there's no jury so the judge is the. ultimate finder of fact okay his name is. Arthur F engoron he's quirky he likes to. make jokes from the bench he makes all. these old timey references like he. referenced Fiddler on the Roof in one. ruling and only in New York exactly. exactly and in the late summer early. fall James asks him to rule before the. trial on the issues at the heart of the. case and we don't necessar expect him to.

do it but he does he does just that and. what he rules is that the annual. financial statements where the values. were contained that those are fraudulent. and that they were repeatedly and. persistently used in business that's the. heart of her case right there wow so. long before there's a trial this judge. who is the sole decider of this case. basically finds that the Attorney. General's case her allegations are. correct it's just a little more chaotic. than that this is just a week before for. the trial wow okay and what does that.

mean for the trial as it's approaching. so it means that the issue at the heart. of the trial is over we had thought this. trial is going to be about proving that. fraud happened but we already know that. the judge believes that fraud happened. so now the trial is really about the. consequences this trial is going to be. about the judge learning more about how. the statements were valued about how. much money the trumps made from it all. to better determine whether there should.

be punishments and how severe they. should be so this is fascinating this is. basically a trial that Donald Trump and. his children have already lost before it. begins and everything that's going to. happen in this trial is just going to be. a question of the degree of loss for. them a lot of that is true yeah the. stakes are still crazy high for them. because the punishments are still an. issue the fine and really their future. as business people at least real estate.

business people okay so this I think. brings us to the trial and to the. testimony of all these trumps and a. question I have had as I have watched. this trial over the past couple days. which is why would a member of the Trump. family Jonah testify in this trial we. have all come to understand that. powerful people don't take the stand. it's too risky yeah that's exactly right. and it's a great question I think it's a. question a lot of people have been. asking and it has to do with the nature.

of the case this is a civil case not a. criminal case in a criminal case the. finder of fact be it the judge or the. jury they can't hold it against an. defendant when they decline to testify. they can't assume oh they'd be lying oh. they're scared they're prohibited from. doing that right if you take the fifth. it can't be held against you it's your. right in a civil case they can make. what's called negative or adverse. inference they can assume the worst when. you don't testify if you don't want to. testify about this particular lawsuit.

well it may be because you're guilty of. every single thing that you're accused. of doing in it got it in other words the. trumps don't legally have to testify in. this case but if they don't it's. probably going to result in a terrible. outcome for them so in a way they kind. of have to testify that's right it'. almost be like forfeiting their case. were they not to. testify and so this week one by one the. trumps arrive in the courtroom first. Donald Trump Jr then Eric Trump and then.

former president Donald J Trump and. their testimony is really really. [Laughter]. [Music]. revealing we'll be right. [Music]. back so Jonah walk us through this. testimony Trump by Trump okay so we.

start with Donald Trump Jr and to. understand his testimony you need to. understand something about the Trump. organization When Donald Trump became. president he put Donald Trump Jr and a. CFO in charge of this trust that. controls his assets it's a pretty. symbolic position but that's something. that Donald Trump Jr was doing he was. signing things on behalf of the trust. which really means he was signing them. on behalf of his father right and his. father created this trust if I'm. remembering correctly. to insulate himself from the day-to-day.

operation of the Trump organization when. he was president because there'd be. conflicts of interest Etc you remember. exactly correctly that's what he did. okay so how does that apply to this. lawsuit so because he has the ceremonial. role he has his name on certain. documents and those documents every so. often will be a letter to the company's. external accountants that says hey these. financial statements that we put. together every year they're accurate and. I certify they're accurate and he signs.

those documents he signs those documents. that means that Donald Trump Jr is. signing documents that say my financial. statements are accurate but as we know. the judge and the Attorney General have. said no these are filled with fraud got. it so how does this testimony go given. that he has signed these claims that. something is accurate that the judge has. already determined are not accurate it. goes pretty poorly and this is a. Hallmark of the Attorney General's case.

she has this very strong paper case she. has a lot of documents and those. documents look bad for the defendants. and so when Donald Trump Jr is presented. with this letter there's not that much. he can do but he does kind of the worst. thing he could do which is what he's on. the stand he's asked about this letter. and with very little. hesitation he just describes it as a. quote unquote cover your butt letter by. which he means what exactly I think he. meant that it wasn't meant to be taken. ser seriously he said it in this very.

dismissive way like oh you know. sometimes you just sign stuff but of. course that's not how business or the. law works right when you sign a document. you're attesting to something or you're. certifying something it has real meaning. but what's so interesting about this is. that it reminded me of former president. Donald Trump where there are statements. that are not meant to be taken seriously. or they're meant to be taken half. seriously and he sometimes seems as if. he knows what those are and he expects. you to know too and that's what I saw.

from Donald Trump Jr so here you're. saying Donald Trump Jr is applying his. father's philosophy this kind of. anything goes looseness with words. approach to life and he's applying that. to his courtroom testimony where of. course words matter a lot right the idea. seems to be some things matter some. things don't and I'm the one who gets to. decide and that was pretty typical of. his testimony he seemed. relaxed almost cavaliere up there he was.

answering questions at a mile a minute. and I sometimes was just like why isn't. this guy slowing down and thinking about. what he's being asked and how it might. damage him because it didn't really seem. like he was doing that which was a huge. contrast By the way to Eric Trump who. came up next okay so tell us about Eric. Trump's testimony so Eric Trump is in. some ways the opposite of his brother. when he appears on the stand he's very. cautious he doesn't seem relaxed he. seems unhappy to be there and he doesn't.

mind you knowing it and the other thing. to know is that Eric Trump has a more. Central role at the Trump organization. and he's more involved overall in what's. going on here just explain that what is. his role Eric Trump is an executive vice. president but he's doing all kinds of. different stuff he's doing operations. he's helping with different projects. around the United States he's really at. the heart of a lot of what the Trump. organization does once his father is in. office and so the attorney General has. accused Eric not just of the symbolic.

role that Donald Trump Jr played but of. actually being involved in some of these. valuations and what were some examples. of that so the most prominent example. has to do with an estate called The. Seven Springs estate and this place is. really kind of fundamental to the Eric. Trump mythology he worked there he lived. there it's this beautiful kind of. sprawling piece of land in Westchester. which is kind of a schmancy place north. of New York City and what he's accused. of doing is just a little microcosm of.

what the company and the trumps are. accused of doing overall pumping up the. value of this place into the hundreds of. millions of dollars when there's at. least one appraisal that shows that it. was worth $30 million wow and what role. does the Attorney General allege that. Eric Trump played in inflating the value. of Seven Springs by that huge magnitude. so what they're trying to show is that. Eric Trump is the one behind this. specific valuation that he was the one. who formed the finance department at the.

Trump organization of this value which. Leticia James is saying is an inflated. value MH and do they have evidence what. we're seeing is a lot of communication. between Eric Trump and a member of the. Trump organization finance department. that sure makes it look as if he was. involved in talking about this very. subject and maybe even telling this. finance department member who is. literally requesting the valuation from. him what the number should be MH we. don't have a Smoking Gun here we don't. have the moment moment he told me the. valuation I told him the valuation.

that's not in evidence but there's. enough to really make it look like the. Attorney General's accusation that Eric. Trump was involved in this valuation. could be true and what does Eric Trump. say about all of that circumstantial. evidence when he gets on the stand he. refuses to accept the logic of it he. refuses to bend to it and as he's asked. more and more about it he clearly gets. frustrated and what he starts to say is. look I'm an operator I'm a construction. guy I don't deal with these little kind.

of petty Financial details that's not my. role at the company even if the emails. suggest that in fact he might in fact he. probably did deal with these Financial. details so how does this all shake out. to you watching in the courtroom well. even though Eric Trump is so different. in his demeanor and his affect from. Donald Trump Jr I was reminded of this. exact same principle this is not. important even if I was involved with. this and if my involvement here or there.

you can show it with evidence or you can. suggest it with evidence well ultimately. that doesn't matter there's a kind of a. take my word I know how this works you. clearly. don't thing going on here yeah and that. just doesn't necessarily help his case. right so then we get to Donald Trump. himself tell us about that testimony for. some. reason I had thought that Donald Trump. would would be a little bit different on.

the stand than he is at a political. rally in an interview because the stakes. are really high and in short he wasn't. he was a very familiar Donald Trump he. was outraged he was prone to giving long. non-responsive monologues much as he. often doesn't answer to reporters he. lashed out at the judge he lashed out at. James who was sitting in the courtroom. and it's not just that he's being Trump.

it's that he's being Trump in such a way. that's really kind of harmful to his. overall case he's talking about how. involved he was with the financial. statements that he did in fact ask for. values to be changed he is talking about. his desire for his valuations to be. higher than they're generally perceived. to be he's kind of AD admitting to the. very fraud it sounds like at the center. of the case sometimes he's admitting to. parts of the fraud or at least to his. involvement in them but even when he's.

not doing that his need for the public. to know that his properties are. incredibly valuable is on display in so. much of his testimony so we talked. earlier about the triplex apartment. right the one where he tripled the value. of the triplex that's right and so it's. 10,996 feet so at some point Trump is. asked a question basically how big is. that apartment and he starts out by. saying saying it's 11,000 ft which is. accurate 11,000 ft that's accurate but.

then he says or 12,000 13,000 he just. starts going up it was like he was doing. exactly what he was accused of doing on. the witness stand in front of the judge. he sort of can't help a rizing and. exaggerating this real estate portfolio. of his that's what it seemed like and it. seemed as if so often he was being asked. questions that infuriated him so I'll. give you a good example the judge as. we've talked about has already red ruled. that these values were fraudulent mhm.

and Trump should be doing everything he. can to just get away from these. statements I had nothing to do with them. I don't have an opinion about them Etc. right but sometimes the Attorney. General's questions just seem calculated. to rile him up and he can't do that he. can't do that distancing Kevin Wallace. the Attorney General's lawyer asks you. don't agree with the position of the. Office of the Attorney General that the. values are overstated in the financial. statements and instead of saying you. know I hope they weren't overstated but.

I don't really have anything to do with. them Trump lashes out at James I think. she's a political hack is what he says. in response to that question got it and. that can show you how his anger almost. trips him up rather than being very. careful on the stand he goes wherever it. seems his ID takes him that Fury I think. in the political setting has been useful. for him has made people feel like this. guy speaks out for me he's with me Etc. that's not the case here anger makes you. lose control it makes you overstep lines.

and overstepping lines in a court case. has really serious consequences right. and rather than being it sounds like. you're saying very strategic Trump. misses an opportunity to State. unequivocally I don't agree with those. valuations or those valuations might be. wrong or like you said put some distance. between them his anger overrides what. might be a strategic instinct to better. serve himself as a defendant that's. exactly right when you see someone on. the witness stand you expect strategy. you kind of expect expect to see in. their conduct what their lawyers have.

told them about that appearance there. were so many moments on Monday where we. didn't see that where we didn't see. preparation where we didn't see strategy. it sounds fair to say correct me if I'm. wrong that by the end of this testimony. from Eric Donald Jr and Donald Trump. himself that this case is not going very. well for them it wasn't going very well. for them the minute they entered the. courtroom but it sounds like it's not. going better after their testimony it's.

hard to imagine that this testimony. helped them and it's very easy to. imagine little bits and pieces of it. showing up in the Attorney General's. closing here's where he said this here's. where he said that here's Donald Trump. exaggerating that Triplex again on the. stand it seems to me that it was not. helpful to their case and it may have. been quite harmful to it it feels like. we learned something very important in. this testimony about former president. Trump as a witness. and it's what you said which is that.

he's kind of heedless incautious and I. have to imagine that that is a fact that. prosecutors in all the other cases in. which Trump is a defendant are thinking. about they want Trump on the stand if I. were a prosecutor and I saw what. happened on Monday I would absolutely. want the former president to testify in. my. case and of course the question for fut. cases is will his lawyers advise him to.

behave differently will he listen to. them and will they now try to keep him. off the. stand it was so clear on Monday that he. did not understand the pulse of the. courtroom what makes it tick if I'm one. of Trump's criminal lawyers and I see. what happened on Monday and two of his. criminal lawyers at least were in the. courtroom I really try hard to keep him. off the. [Music]. St well Jonah thank you very much of. course thanks so much for having me. [Music].

Donald Trump's daughter Ivanka is. scheduled to testify today the trial is. expected to last for the next few weeks. with a final ruling possible sometime in. [Music]. December we'll be right. [Music]. back.

here's what else you need to another day. who should govern Gaza when this is over. I think Israel will for an indefinite. period will have the overall security. responsibility because we've seen what. happens when we don't have it in an. interview on Tuesday Israeli Prime. Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told ABC. news that Israel would play a major role. in overseeing Security in Gaza when its.

ground invasion is completed when we. don't have that security responsibility. what we have is the eruption of uh Hamas. Terror on a scale that we couldn't. imagine the remarks immediately evoked. memories of Israel's original occupation. of Gaza which began in 1967 and ended in. 2005 the United States has strongly. opposed such a reoccupation but in the. interview Netanyahu did not specify what.

his plan for securing Gaza would. actually look like in practice and. Democratic candidates and causes won big. victories on Tuesday in offe elections. held in several States in Kentucky the. popular Democratic governor Andy Basher. was reelected in a deeply Republican. state in Ohio which also leans republ. Republican voters approved two ballot.

measures the first enshrining abortion. rights in the state's Constitution the. second legalizing marijuana and in. Virginia Democrats kept control of the. state senate and were on the verge of. winning control of the House of. delegates blocking the state's. Republican Governor from trying to. restrict. abortion today's episode was produced by. Diana win and Olivia Nat it was edited.

by Rachel quer with help from Brendan. clink BG contains original music by Dan. Powell and was engineered by Alyssa Jane. Moxley our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben lurg of. wonderl that's it for the daily I'm. Michael Babar. seed.

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