The Supreme Court Takes Up Homelessness

from The New York Times I'm Katherine. benold this is the. daily this morning we're taking a much. closer look at homelessness in the. United States as it reaches a level not. seen in the modern era California as the. number of homeless people has searched. in the US more than 653,000 a 12%. population increase since last year the. debate over homeless encampments across. the country has intensified it is not. Humane to let people live on our streets.

and Tents use drugs we are not standing. for it anymore people have had it. they're fed up I'm fed up people want to. see these tents and encampments removed. in a compassionate and thoughtful way. and we agree with public officials. saying they need more tools to address. the crisis we move from block to block. in every block they say can't be here. can't be here can't be here I don't know. where it's supposed to go you know and. homeless people and their Advocates. saying those tools are intended to.

unfairly punish them they come and they. sweep and they take everything from me. and I can't get out of the hole I'm in. because they keep putting me back in. square one that debate is now reaching. the Supreme Court which is about to hear. arguments in the most significant case. on homelessness in decades about whether. cities can make it illegal to be. homeless my colleague Abby fle on the. backstory of that case and its. far-reaching implications for cities. across the.

[Music]. US it's Friday April. 19th so Abby you've been reporting on. this case that has been Making Waves. gr's pass versus Johnson which the. Supreme Court is taking up next week. what's this case about so this case is.

about a small town in Oregon where three. homeless people sued the city after they. received tickets for sleeping and. camping outside and this case is the. latest case that shows this growing. tension especially in states in the west. between people who are homeless and. cities who are trying to figure out what. to do about this these cities have seen. a sharp increase in homeless encampments. in public spaces especially.

with people on sidewalks and in parks. and they've raised questions about. public drug use and other safety issues. in these spaces and so the question. before the justices is really how far a. city can go to police homelessness can. City officials and police use local laws. to ban people from laying down outside. and sleeping in a public space can a. city essentially make it illegal to be.

homeless so three homeless people sued. the city of gr pass saying it's not. illegal to be homeless and therefore. it's not illegal to sleep in a public. space yes that's right and they weren't. the first people to make this argument. the issue actually started years ago. with a case about 500 miles to the east. in Boise. Idaho and in that case which is called. Martin V. Boise this man Robert Martin who is. homeless and Boise he was charged with a.

misdemeanor for sleeping in some bushes. and the City of Boise had laws on the. books to prohibit public camping and. Robert Martin and a group of other. people who are homeless in the city they. sued the city and they claimed that the. city's laws violated the eth amendment's. prohibition on cruel and unusual. punishment and what makes it cruel and.

unusual so their argument was that the. city did not have enough sufficient. shelter beds for everyone who was. homeless in the city and so they were. forced to sleep outside they said you. know we have no place to go and that an. essential human need is to sleep and we. want to be able to lay down on the. sidewalk or in an alley or someplace to. rest and that their local laws were a.

violation of Robert Martin and the. others constitutional rights that the. city is violating the eth amendment by. criminalizing the human need to. sleep and the courts who heard the case. agreed with that argument the courts. ruled that the city had violated the. Constitution and that the city could not. punish people for being involuntary.

homeless and what that meant the court. laid out is that someone is. involuntarily homeless if a city does. not have enough adequate shelter beds. for the number of people who are. homeless in the city it does seem like a. very important distinction they're. saying basically if you have nowhere. else to go you can't be punished for. sleeping on the street right that's what. the court was saying in the Martin B. Boise case and the of Boise then.

appealed the case they asked the Supreme. Court to step in and take it on but the. Supreme Court declined to hear the case. so since then the Martin V Boise case. controls all over western parts of the. US in What's called the ninth circuit. which includes Oregon where the Grants. Pass case. originated okay so tell us about Grants. Pass this city at the center of of the. case and now in front of the Supreme.

Court what's the story there Grants Pass. is a town in rural Southwestern Oregon. it's a town of about 38,000 people it's. a former Timber town that now really. relies a lot on tourists to go rafting. through the river and go wine tasting in. the countryside and it's a pretty. conservative town when I did interviews. you know people talked about it having a.

very strong libertarian streak and when. I talked with people in the town people. said you know when they were growing up. there it was very rare to see someone. who was homeless it just was not an. issue that was talked a lot about in the. community but it did become a big issue. about 10 years. ago people in the community started to. get worried about what they saw as an. increase in the number number of.

homeless people that they were noticing. around town and it's unclear whether the. problem was growing or whether local. officials and residents were worried. that it might whether they were fearing. that it might but in any case in 2013. the city council decided to start. stepping up enforcement of local. ordinances that did things like Outlaw. camping in public parks or sleeping. outside this series of overlapping local.

laws that would make it you know. impossible for people to sleep in public. spaces in Grants Pass and at one meeting. one of the former city council members. she said the point is to make it. uncomfortable enough for them in our. city so they will want to move on down. the. road so it sounds like at least in. Grant's past that this is not really. about reducing homelessness it's about.

reducing the number of visible homeless. people in the town well I would say that. you know City officials and many local. residents would say that the homeless. encampments are actually creating real. concerns about Public Safety that it's. actually creating all kinds of issues. for everyone else who lives in Grants. Pass and you know there are drug issues. and mental health issues and that this. is actually bringing a lot of chaos to. the. city okay so in order to deal with these.

concerns you said that they decided to. start enforcing these local measures. what does that actually look like on the. ground so police started handing out. tickets in Grants Pass these were you. know civil tickets where people would. get fines and if police noticed people. you know doing this enough times then. they could issue them a trespass from a. park and then that would give you know. for certain number of days somebody.

would be banned from the park and if. police caught them in the park before. that time period was up then the person. could face criminal time um they could. go to jail and homeless people started. rocking up fines you know hundreds of. dollars of fines I talked to a lot of. people who were camping in the Parks who. had racked up these fines over the years. and each one would have multiple tickets. they had no way to pay I talked to. people who tried to challenge the.

tickets and they had to leave their. belongings back in the park and you know. they would come back to find someone had. taken their stuff or their things had. been impounded so it just you know it. seemed to be this cycle that actually. was entrenching people more into. homelessness and yet at the same time. none of these people had left Grant's. Pass so they did make it very. uncomfortable for homeless people but it. doesn't seem to be working people are. not leaving right people are not leaving.

and these tickets and fines it's. something that people had been dealing. with for years in Grant's Pass but in. 2018 the Martin V Boise case happened. and not long after that a group of. people and Grants Pass challenged these. ordinances and they used the Boise case. to make their argument that just like in.

Boise Grant's Pass was punishing people. for being involuntarily homeless that. this overlapping group of local. ordinances and Grants Pass had made it. so there is nowhere to put a pillow and. blanket on the ground and sleep without. being in some kind of violation of a. rule and this group of local homeless. people make the argument that everyone. in Grant's Pass who is homeless is.

involuntarily homeless and you told us. earlier that it it was basically the. lack of available shelter that makes a. homeless person involuntarily homeless. so is there a homeless shelter in. Grant's Pass well it sort of depends on. the standard that you're using so there. is no public low barrier shelter that is. easy for somebody to just walk in and. stay for a night if they need some place. to go Grants Pass does not not have a. shelter like that H there is one shelter.

in Grant's Pass but it's a religious. shelter and there are lots of. restrictions I spoke with the head of. the shelter who explained you know the. purpose is really to get people back. into the workforce and so they have a. 30-day program that's really designed. for that purpose and you know as part of. that people can't have pets people are. not allowed to smoke they're required to. attend Christian relig ious services and.

some of the people who I interviewed who. had chronic mental health and physical. disabilities said that they had been. turned away or weren't able to stay. there because of the level of needs that. they have and so if you come in with any. kind of issue like that it can be a. problem that's a very long list of. restrictions and of course people are. homeless for a lot of very different. reasons it sounds like a lot of these. reasons might actually disqualify them. from this particular shelter so when.

they say they have nowhere else to go if. they're in Grants Pass they kind of have. a point so that's what the court decided. in. 2022 when the courts heard this case. they agreed with the homeless plaintiffs. that there's no low barrier shelter in. Grant's Pass and that the religious. shelter did not meet the Court's. requirements but the city who are. actually now represented by the same. lawyers who argued for Boise keeps.

appealing the case and they appeal up to. the ninth circuit just as in the Boise. case and the judges there find in favor. of the homeless plaintiffs uh and they. they find that grants passes ordinances. are so restrictive that there is no. place where someone can lay down and. sleep in Grants Pass and that therefore. the city has violated the Eighth. Amendment. and they cannot enforce these ordinances.

in the way that they have been for years. so at that point the court upholds the. Boise precedent and we're kind of where. we were when it all started but as we. know that's not the end of the story. because this case stays in the court. system what. happened so by this point the. homelessness problem is really exploding. throughout the western part of the us.

with more visible encampments and it. really becomes a politically divisive. issue and leaders sort of across the. political Spectrum point to Boise as a. root cause of the. problem so when Grant's Pass comes along. people saw that case as a way. potentially to undo. boisey if only they could get it before. The Supreme Court. [Music].

we'll be right. [Music]. back Abby you just told us that as. homeless numbers went up and these. homeless encampments really started. spreading it's no longer just. conservatives who want the Supreme Court. to revisit the Boise ruling it's.

liberals too that's right so there's a. really broad group of people who all. started pushing for the Supreme Court to. take up the Grants Pass case and you. know they did this by filing briefs to. the Supreme Court laying out their. reasoning and you know it's everyone. from the liberal governor of California. and you know many Progressive liberal. cities to some of the most conservative.

legal groups and you know they disagree. about their reasoning but they all are. asking the court to. clarify how to interpret the Boise. decision they are saying essentially. that the Boise decision has been. understood in different ways you know in. all different parts of the West and that. that is causing confusion and creating. all sorts of problems and they're. blaming that on the Boise case it's. interesting because after everything you.

told us about these very Extreme. Measures really that the city of Grant's. Pass took against homeless people it it. is kind of surprising that these liberal. bastions that you're you're mentioning. are are siding with the town in this. case you know just to be clear they are. not saying that they support necessarily. you know the way that Grants Pass OR. Boise had enforced their laws but they. are saying that the court rulings have. tied their hands with this ambiguous. decision on how to act and what exactly.

is so ambiguous about the Boise decision. which if I remember correctly simply. said that if someone is involuntarily. homeless if they're on the streets. because there's no adequate shelter. space available they can't be punished. for that yeah so there are a couple of. things that are sort of common threads. in the cities and the groups that are. asking for clarity from the court and. the first thing is that they're saying. you know what is adequate shelter that.

every homeless person situation is. different so what are cities or places. required to provide for people who are. homeless what is the standard that they. need to meet in order not to sleep on. the street that's right so you know if. the standard is that a city has to have. enough beds for everyone who is homeless. but certain kinds of shelters or beds. wouldn't qualify then kind of what are. the rules around that mhm and the second.

thing is that they're asking for clarity. around what involuntarily homeless means. and so in the Boise decision that meant. that someone is involuntarily homeless. if there is not enough bed space for. them to go to but a lot of cities are. saying what about people who don't want. to go into a shelter even if there's a. shelter bed available if they have a pet. or if they are a smoker or if something. might prohibit them from going to a.

shelter how is a city supposed to weigh. that and at what point would they cross. a line for the court it's almost a. philosophical question like you know if. somebody doesn't want to be in a shelter. are they still allowed to sleep in a. public space yeah I mean these are. complicated questions that sort of go. beyond the eth amendment argument but. that a lot of the organizations that. have reached out to the court through. these Friend of the Court briefs are. asking okay I can see that sort of the. unifying element here is that in all.

these briefs various people from across. the Spectrum are saying you know hello. Supreme Court we basically need some. clarity here give us some clarity the. question that I have is why did the. Supreme Court agree to weigh in on. Grant's PA after declining to take up. Boise well it's not possible for us to. say for certain because the Supreme. Court does not give reasons why it is. agreed to hear or to not hear a case.

they get thousands of cases a year and. they just you know they they take up. just a few of those and their. deliberations are secret but you know we. can point to a few things one is that. the makeup of the court has change the. court has gained conservative justices. in the last few years this court has not. been shy about taking up hot button. issues across the spectrum of American. society in this case the court hasn't. heard a major homelessness case like.

this but I would really point to the. sheer number and the range of the people. who are petitioning the court to take a. look at this case these are major. players in the country who are asking. the court for guidance and the Supreme. Court does weigh in on issues of. national importance and the people who. are asking for help clearly believe that. this is one of those. issues so let's start digging into the. actual arguments and maybe let's start. with the city of Grants Pass what are.

the central arguments that they're. expected to make before The Supreme. Court you know so the city's arguments. turn on this narrow legal issue of. whether the eth amendment applies or. doesn't and and they say that it doesn't. but I actually think that in some ways. that's not the most helpful way to sort. of understanding what Grants Pass is. arguing what is really at the heart of. their argument is that if the court. upholds Grants Pass and Boise that they. are tying the hands of Grants Pass and.

hundreds of other towns and cities to. actually act to solve and respond to. homelessness and by that I mean to solve. issues of people camping in the Parks. but also more broadly of public safety. issues of being able to address problems. as they arise in sort of a fluid and. flexible way in the varied ways that. they're going to show up in all these. different places is and their argument.

is if the court accepts the Grants Pass. in Boise. Holdings that they will be. constitutionalizing or sort of freezing. in place and limiting all of these. governments from acting right this is. essentially the argument being repeated. again and again in those briefs that you. mentioned earlier that unless the. Supreme Court overturns these decisions. it's almost a impossible for these. cities to get the encampments under.

control yes that's right and they also. argue they need to have flexibility in. dealing actually with people who are. homeless and being able to figure out. using a local ordinance to try to. convince someone to go to treatment that. they say you know they need carrots and. sticks they need to be able to use every. tool that they can to be able to try to. solve this problem and how do we make. sense of that argument when Grants Pass. is clearly not using that many tools to.

deal with homeless people for example. you know it didn't have shelters as you. mentioned so the city's argument is that. this just should not be an eighth. amendment issue that this is the wrong. you know way to think about this case. that issues around homelessness and how. a city handles it is a policy question. so things like shelter beds or the way. that the city is handling their. ordinances should really be left up to. policy makers and City officials not to.

this really broad constitutional. argument and so you know therefore the. city is likely to focus their argument. entirely on this very narrow. question and how does the other side. counter this argument the homeless. plaintiffs are going to argue that. there's nothing in the lower courts. decisions that say that cities can't. enforce their laws that they can't you. know stop people from littering that. they can't stop drug use that they can't. clear encampments if there becomes. public safety problems they're just.

saying that a city cannot not provide. shelter and then make it illegal for. people to lay down and sleep so both. sides are saying that a city should be. able to take action when there's public. disorder as a result of these homeless. encampments but they're pointing at each. other and saying the way you want to. handle homelessness is wrong I think. everyone in this case agrees that. homelessness and the increase in. homelessness is bad for everyone it's.

bad for people who are camping in the. park it is bad for the community that. nobody is saying that the current. situation is tenable everyone is saying. there need to be Solutions we need to be. able to figure out what to do about. homelessness and how to care for people. who are homeless how do we wrestle with. all these problems it's just that the. way that they think about it couldn't be. farther apart and what can you tell me. about how the Supreme Court is actually. expected to rule in.

this there are a number of ways that the. justices could decide on this case they. could take a really narrow approach and. just focus on Grants Pass and the. arguments about those local ordinances I. think that somewhat unlikely because. they've decided to take up this case of. national importance a ruling in favor of. the homeless plaintiffs would mean that. they've accepted this eth amendment. argument that you cannot criminalize. being homeless and a ruling for the city. you know every legal expert I've talked.

to has said that would mean an end to. Boise and that it would sort of break. apart the current state that we've been. living in for these last several years. I'm struck by how much this case and our. conversation has been about policing. homelessness rather than actually. addressing the root causes of. homelessness we're not really talking. about say the right to shelter or the. right to treatment for people who you. know who are mentally ill and sleeping. on the streets as a result. uh which is quite a big proportion and.

at the end of the day whatever way the. ruling goes it will be about the. visibility of homelessness and not the. root. causes yeah I think that's right that's. really kind of what's looming in the. background of this case is what impact. is it going to have will it make things. better or worse and for who and these. court cases have really become this. talking point for cities and for their. leaders blaming the spike in encampments.

and the visibility of homelessness on. these Court. decisions but homelessness you know. everyone acknowledges is such a. complicated. issue people have told me in interviews. for the story they've blamed increases. in homelessness on everything from the. pandemic to forest fires to skyrocketing. housing costs in the west coast and that. the role that Boise and now Grants Pass. play in this has always been a little.

hard to pin down and if the Supreme. Court overturns those cases then we'll. really see whether they were the. obstacle that political leaders said. that they were and if these cases fall. you know it sort of it remains to be. seen whether cities do try to find all. these Creative Solutions with housing. and services to try to help people who. are homeless or whether they sort of. once again fall back on just sending. people to.

jail Abby thank you very much thank you. so. [Music]. [Music]. much we'll be right back. [Music].

here's what else you need to know today. early on Friday Israel attacked a. military base in central Iran the. explosion came less than a week after. Iran's attack on Israel last weekend and. was part of a cycle of retaliation that. has brought the shadow war between the. two countries out in the open the scale. and method of Friday's attack remained. unclear and the initial reaction in both.

Israel and Iran was to downplay its. significance world leaders have urged. both sides to exercise restraint in. order to avoid sparking a broader war in. the. region and 12 New Yorkers have been. selected to decide Donald Trump's. criminal trial in Manhattan clearing the. way for opening statements to begin as. early as Monday seven new jurors were. added in short order on Thursday. afternoon no hours after two others who.

had already been picked were abruptly. excused Trump is accused of falsifying. business records to cover up a hush. money payment made to a porn star during. his 2016 presidential campaign if the. jury convicts him he faces up to 4 years. in. prison. finally this is. the the New York Police Department said. it took at least 108 protesters into.

custody at Columbia University after. University officials called the police. to respond to a pro Palestinian. demonstration and dismantle aend. encampment the Crackdown prompted more. students to vow that demonstrations. would continue expressing outrage at. both the Roundup of the student. protesters and the plight of. Palestinians in Gaza.

[Music]. today's episode was produced by Olivia. Nat Stella tan and Eric krupy with help. from relle boner it was edited by Liz. Balin fact checked by Susan Lee contains. original music by Will Reed Pat mccusker. Dan Powell and Diane Wong and was. engineered by Chris Wood. our theme music is by Jim brenberg and.

Ben lansberg of. [Music]. Wy that's it for the daily I'm Katherine. benold see you on Monday. [Music].