The Stunning Rise of the Democratic Socialists of America

From the New York Times, I'm Michael. Bubaro. This is the Daily. This summer, [music]. Democratic Socialists have mounted their. biggest and most successful attempt yet. to redefine the Democratic Party. >> 48 hours after Democratic Socialists won. in two New York congressional districts, the implications are still being felt. And this really could just be the start. by defeating its candidates [music] in. primary after primary. From the east.

coast, >> Janice Lewis George is poised to become. the first Democratic Socialist mayor in. the history of the nation's capital. >> to the West Coast. Democratic Socialist. scored another primary victory, this. time in Colorado's first congressional. district. To swing [music] states, Democrat Socialist won several races, notably in Michigan. Chris Rab, the. Democratic Party's nominee in the. [music] third district of Pennsylvania, is also a member of the Democratic. Socialists of America. And finally, to. the heart of red America. >> Let's talk Florida.

>> Democratic socialist Angie Nixon crushed. Alex Vidman. >> In [music] the process, Americans views. of Democratic socialists and socialism. itself [music] are changing. Socialism. up like a rocket. Look at this. Two in. three Democrats have a favorable view of. socialism. >> The latest CBS News poll found Democrats. view socialism more favorably than. capitalism. >> Democratic socialists of America a plus. 17 point net favorability rate among. Democrats. Simply put, they are a better.

brand at this point than Democrats in. Congress. But as its electoral success grows, the. organization at the heart of the. movement [music] is confronting big. unresolved questions about what it. stands for. What exactly its. relationship to the Democratic Party. [music] should be and what level of. compromise is required to become a. lasting political force. Today, [music]. my colleague, political correspondent.

Charlie Hman's on the rise and the. limitations of the DSA. It's Wednesday, August 26th. Charlie, welcome back to the show. >> Thanks for having me. >> My pleasure. So by a lot of measures, this has been the summer of the. democratic socialist. And here on the. daily, we have spent a lot of time.

focused on democratic socialist. candidates and the races that they are. running in, but not on the organization. itself that's at the heart of this. movement, which is the Democratic. Socialists of America, the DSA. And so. that's where you come in, Charlie, because you have spent the last few. weeks reporting on the DSA and how it. made this midterm election to a large. degree about socialism. >> That's right. DSA has been around for a.

long time in various forms, but for all. intents and purposes, this group wasn't. really on the radar of a lot of people. in politics and I think the general. public until this past year, starting. when Zoran Mandani won in New York and. then continuing on through what's been a. really pretty remarkable run of. congressional Democratic primary wins. So I was interested in better. understanding the organization itself. and I spent weeks talking to anyone who. had talked to me in DSA, talking to.

candidates, watching them campaigning. and came away feeling that this is a. real force, a rising force in Democratic. politics and also that as it's growing. its footprint in American politics that. it might be its own worst enemy in terms. of its future. >> And what do you mean by that exactly? So. you have to understand that DSA is not. built as a political party. It exists. inside of the Democratic Party these. days somewhat, but it doesn't work like.

a party. It's a much more fractious. organization and it has a lot of. constituencies. with very different ideas about how to. pursue their aims in politics. And as I. explored deeper into the history of the. organization and American socialism more. generally, I realized that these were. really debates that have been happening. throughout much of the history of. American socialism. And they're. happening inside of DSA now in a way. that is really going to affect its. future as a force in American politics.

Well, just explain then that history of. American socialism that inevitably. brings us to the DSA and to its inherent. fractiousness. So to understand DSA, I think you need. to understand the early history of. socialism in this country. And that. means going back to the early 1900s, which was the previous heyday of. socialism here. You know, this is the. period right after the guilded age when.

you had some Americans making just. really enormous amounts of money. These. sort of railroad barons, timber barons, coal mining, that kind of thing. At the. same time, many Americans are working in. these industries or in agriculture. And. and there's this huge wealth gap between. the rich and everybody else. And this. creates a lot of inevitable political. reactions. people who are trying to. envision a way of redistributing the. wealth. And you know, one thing that. comes out of that eventually is this.

American form of socialism. And. specifically the Socialist Party of. America, which in the early 1900s was. the largest and most organized socialist. party in the United States. And. socialist candidates win a fair amount. of elections across the country. You. know, they're not a massive movement, but socialists held assembly seats in a. lot of states that would surprise you. today. Places like Oklahoma, Texas, the. upper Midwest, socialist mayors in a lot.

of cities in New York, California, really all over the place. >> Mhm. >> And they really hit their pinnacle with. Eugene V. Debs, who was the most famous. socialist politician of this time. period. Fellow workers and comrades, the socialist movement is as wide as the. world and its mission is to win the. world. The whole world from. >> Debs was a union organizer and a. Democratic assemblyman from Indiana who.

became the perennial candidate for the. Socialist Party of America in five. presidential elections. >> Wow. The working classes must be made to heal. the public call of solidarity, economic solidarity and political. solidarity. >> and really works to try to convince all. these disperate groups of workingclass. people in the United States to see. themselves as a class and to see. themselves with a sense of solidarity.

with each other. >> A new power will be in control. the. people. for the first time in all history. Man at last will be free. And how does Debs actually do in all. these presidential elections that he. runs in? So Debs topped out at 6% of the. vote in 1912, which was not a lot, but.

was enough to make him part of the. political conversation and to make. socialism really part of the political. conversation in the country at that. time. >> And what did that look like exactly? How. was socialism in that moment being. defined in America? >> At the time, it was defined pretty. clearly as public control of the. workings of the economy for the benefit. of the workers. Mhm. >> And in the Deb's era, the socialists. kind of saw this as the beginning of a. real ascent into the mainstream of. American politics. But that's not what.

happened. >> What happened instead? >> So, the socialists ran a fowl of the. government of Woodro Wilson, specifically over World War I. The. Socialists were very opposed to US. involvement in the war. Debs encouraged. young men to avoid the draft, and this. ended up getting him prosecuted under. the Espionage Act. And so by the time he. runs for president in 1920, he's doing. it from prison. >> Never a great situation. >> Never a great situation. The socialists. also ran into a lot of other problems.

kind of of their own making. They split. into a number of factions in this. period. They lost a lot of ground in. American politics and they were kind of. a spent force really coming out of the. 1920s. But another problem for them really was. that actually a lot of socialist ideas. that were pretty popular were advanced. by non-socialist politicians in this. period. [clears throat]. Most importantly FDR. >> I pledge myself. to a new deal for the American people.

>> who borrowed a lot of what was thought. of as democratic socialist economic. policy as part of his New Deal to help. America out of the Great Depression. Only a foolish optimist can deny the. dark realities of the moment. >> This is another moment again when. there's a huge wealth gap in the US. >> Farmers find no markets for their. produce and the savings of many years in. thousands of families are gone. >> And people see capitalism is really a. broken system. Our greatest primary task.

is to put people to work in part by. direct recruiting by the government. itself. >> And so FDR pushes through things like. federal employment programs, big public. works projects, social security. >> This social security measure gives at. least some protection against the loss. of a job and against povertystricken old. age. These were ideas that were very. similar to what socialists had been.

advocating for. >> and it really kind of stole a lot of the. fire from American socialism to have. these enacted by a progressive. democratic presidency. >> I'm curious if FDR saw what he was doing. as any form of socialism and if anyone. else in American politics at that time. called it socialism. >> FDR saw himself as a reformer of. capitalism. So he was happy to borrow a. lot of these ideas that again we would. in another context consider socialist.

but as a way of correcting the. capitalist system rather than replacing. it. >> A few timid people who fear progress. will try to give you new and strange. names for what we are doing. >> And in fact he pushed back against the. idea that this was socialist. Sometimes. they will call it fascism and sometimes. communism and sometimes socialism. But in so doing they are trying to make. very complex and theoretical something.

that is really very simple and very. practical. >> And the reason FDR is careful not to. call this socialism is because of what's. happening around the world at this time. You know the Russian Revolution has. happened. The Soviet Union's been born. This is the first country that embraces. communism. Now, communism is a much more. radical and in the Soviet Union. undemocratic system evolving from. socialism, one that many American. socialists reject. >> But this has led to all these ideologies.

being seen in the United States as. foreign and threatening in a way that. they weren't necessarily before. But as. we saw with FDR, some socialist ideas. can still find their way into the. mainstream if they're packaged right. And so I think the New Deal sets up what. really becomes the central question that. socialists confront in this country. throughout the rest of the 20th century. and into the 21st century, which is are. you content seeing ideas that you. broadly support that emerge from your. politics being enacted at a large scale.

even if they fall short of an actual. socialist transformation in the United. States? >> Right. Are they okay with basically the. Democratic Party co-opting their ideas? So with that in mind, where does this. movement go after the New Deal ends up. to a degree stealing a lot of socialists. thunder? So by the 1950s, the socialists. have at least tacitly acknowledged that. they are probably not going to win. elections anytime soon and have really. resorted more to trying to influence.

policy through the Democratic party, through union leaders, through. politicians who are sympathetic to them. And the guy who really embodies this. idea is Michael Harrington. >> We're trying to bring socialism from. nothing to something. We're at a. beginning who is becomes the head of. what's left of the socialist party in. 1968. Harrington before that was this actually. quite prominent public intellectual and. left-wing activist. So long as private.

corporations dominate the economy, just. so long will the political structure. have to defer to private corporations. >> And he really pursued this idea of. trying to just shift the Democratic. party to the left through his own. personal influence. Liberalism is. inherently condemned to frustration. because its excellent ideals cannot be. realized unless one is willing to attack.

systemic power, corporate power. >> But Harrington is kind of chasing. diminishing influence. across the decade until in the early 80s. which is really the absolute nadier of. his own influence. He decides to form a. new socialist organization called. Democratic Socialists of America, >> the modern incarnation of socialism, the. group. This entire episode is about, >> right? And it's really a quicksotic time. to start a socialist organization in the.

United States. The idea is probably. never been less popular. The country is. becoming more conservative. Reagan is on. the march. The socialists themselves. have probably never had less influence. And this is the moment when DSA gets. started. And the DSA really for the. first 30ome years of its existence is. not much of a political organization. You know, some of its members even. describe it as basically kind of a book. club in these years. It was it was very. much a sort of intellectual society. A.

lot of the members and leaders were. writers and academics really not capable. of [snorts] affecting any sort of. political change in this country at all. until. >> today. I am proud to announce my. candidacy for president of the United. States of America. [cheering]. >> Bernie Sanders comes along. >> Mhm. >> So Bernie Sanders was never a member of. DSA. H. >> but he selfidentifies as a democratic.

socialist. >> You call yourself a democratic. socialist. How can any kind of socialist. win a general election in the United. States? Well, we're going to win because. first we're going to explain what. democratic socialism is. [music]. >> And he becomes this really pivotal. figure in the modern evolution of this. organization. >> And what democratic socialism is about. is saying that it is immoral and wrong. that the top onetenth of 1% in this. country own almost as much wealth as the. bottom 90%. And he also sort of points.

this movement forward towards the real. policy focuses that will continue to. define DSA going forward. We should have. health care for every man, woman, and. child as a right. We should raise the. minimum wage to at least $15 an hour. >> You know, he runs on Medicare for all. and a $15 minimum wage mandated by the. government. >> You don't consider yourself a. capitalist, though. Do I consider myself. part of the casino capitalist process by. which so few have so much and so many.

have so little? By which Wall Street. greed and recklessness wreck this. economy? No, I don't. I believe. >> he's really drafting off of this. populist anger that comes out of the. financial crisis. What this campaign is. about is whether we can mobilize our. people to take back our government from. a handful of billionaires and create the. vibrant democracy we can and should.

have. [cheering]. >> And overall this message that the. establishment has rigged the system. against working people and working. people need to take their power back. >> Right. It feels like the Bernie Sanders. appeal in this post208 financial crisis. moment very much hearkens back to the. two previous moments Charlie that you. describe the postg guilded age era and. the great depression. Both times when.

the wealth gap in the country was. enormous and working Americans feel. abandoned and betrayed by the capitalist. system. >> That's [snorts] right. And obviously. people on the left are really drawing. those connections at the time, you know, pointing to the resonances with the. guilded age, the Great Depression. >> But for the socialists, what Bernie did. that was really important was show that. self-identified socialist could actually. do quite well in a democratic primary. You have to remember that before this.

point, socialism was really like a very. taboo word in American politics and had. been for quite a long time. And Bernie. kind of reclaimed this word as something. that you could actually run on as a. left-wing candidate and said, "Yeah, I. am a socialist." And really embraced. this label very directly in a way that. people prior to 2016, I think, would. have assumed would have been absolute. poison in even a Democratic primary. And. what Bernie did was show that that. wasn't actually true at all. >> Mhm. >> And his candidacy is becomes this real.

movement and draws all these people to. his cause. And after the election, all. these people are kind of out there, you. know, asking, "What do we do with this. energy and these ideas?" And one of the. big answers they come up with is, "Let's. join the DSA.". >> The membership, which prior to this. point is 6,000 members basically, jumps. to 30,000 members over the course of. 2017. So this is a massive increase in. not just the size of the organization,

but the demographics of it. You know, this had been a much kind of old tweety. group of people for the most part before. this moment. And by their own. statistics, the median age of a DSA. member after 2016 drops from 68 to 33. >> Wow. [snorts and laughter]. And so these people do a lot of things. inside of DSA. [music] They start new. chapters in cities on college campuses, places where there had not been DSA. chapters before. and they start. organizing campaigns and they start.

running for office themselves. And in. 2018, >> we launched this campaign because no one. was clearly and authentically talking. about issues like the corrupting role of. money and politics. >> Alexandria Okassiocortez. challenges Joe Crowley, this very deeply. rooted incumbent in a New York City. House district. despite the fact that we. didn't have the money, despite the fact. that I'm working class, despite all.

those things, [cheering] we won and. beats him in the Democratic primary in. this incredible upset, >> right? [music]. >> AOC was somebody who had recently joined. DSA around the time she was running for. Congress. And that same year, >> I am Congresswoman elect. >> Rashidita Talib, who's also DSA, wins a. congressional seat from Michigan. 2020, they pick up a couple more congressional. seats.

>> It will be our job to hold every elected. official accountable that is not. fighting for the poor and is not. fighting for the working class in our. country. >> Jamal Bowman, Cy Bush. to every person. who's lost a job or a home or healthare. or hope, I'm here. >> Along the way, they're winning city. council races in a lot of cities all. over the country and you know, state. assembly seats, things like that at the. local level. >> Mhm. [music]. >> And then in 2025, they have this real. breakthrough. >> Thank you, my friends. [cheering].

>> When Zoran Mani is elected mayor of New. York City, >> the sun may have set over our city this. evening. But as Eugene Debs once said, >> I can see the dawn of a better day for. humanity. And who does he cite in his speech after. winning the election? Eugene Depps, the. socialist presidential candidate from.

the early 20th century. [music]. >> Right. And very importantly, Mamani. within the first year of being mayor of. New York City turns around and uses his. popularity to endorse fellow DSA. candidates in Democratic primaries. around New York. And several of them. win. They take out more establishment. Democrats. And that brings us to this.

summer of democratic socialism where in. race after race after race, DSA. candidates or DSA adjacent candidates. are winning these primaries, >> right? And the fact of DSA's success has. really shown a spotlight on the. organization this year, which remember. is not actually a political party. They. have this kind of interesting, I think, unstable relationship with the. Democratic party where they're really. mostly operating inside of that party at. this point. But the DSA is not taking. out Republicans. They're taking out.

other Democrats. And they're. increasingly taking out not just. moderate establishment Democrats, but. actually pretty progressive Democrats in. some cases. And. >> so for the rest of the Democratic party, they're looking at the success and. wondering, you know, what is this. costing us, >> right? [music]. And all that has raised some really. existential questions I think about the. DSA in this moment. Both in terms of its. relationship to the Democratic Party, but also questions about the. organization itself and how it should. move forward. Democrats and Democratic.

socialists are looking at each other. right now and asking, are we on the same. team? Do we share the same goals? Does. the Democratic party want the DSA inside. of it? And does the DSA really even want. to become a wing of the Democratic. Party? [music]. [music]. We'll be right back.

Charlie, let's now really turn to the. tension between the DSA and the. Democratic Party and how the structure. of the DSA itself contributes to those. tensions and how overall the DSA may be, as you said at the very start of this. conversation, an obstacle unto itself. >> Well, let's start with what DSA. officially believes. And it's worth. bracketing this. You know, there's a. national DSA organization. There are.

individual chapters all over the. country. And then there are DSA. candidates. The national DSA does not. necessarily hold all the same views as. DSA candidates. And it doesn't. necessarily hold all the same views even. as individual DSA chapters. This is a. very diffuse horizontal organization. But they do have a national platform. which has a pretty straightforward. program of what they want which ranges. from things that are fairly familiar to. things that are really much further out. there on the radical spectrum of what we.

talk about in American politics. >> Like what? >> So on the familiar side of the ledger, you have ideas from sort of the Bernie. wing of American politics. You know, this is healthcare for all, housing for. all, a green new deal. You know, we've. heard of this stuff, >> right? On foreign policy, there's a huge. emphasis on Israel Palestine support for. the Palestinian people. This is really. the central foreign policy issue at this. point for DSA. They believe in the right. to return. They believe in the right of.

the Palestinian people to resist. military occupation, the end of all US. military and economic aid to Israel, and. prosecuting US [snorts] and Israeli. leaders responsible for the war in Gaza. And then there's also, you know, filling. out the foreign policy, there's a more. kind of general skepticism of American. entanglement in other countries. So they. believe, for instance, that we should. not be in NATO. We should not be arming. Ukraine. And back [clears throat] home. in the US, there's a lot of things they. want to abolish. They want to abolish. the police, but also abolish prisons,

and they want to abolish the US Senate. What is the logic of that last proposal. you mentioned, abolishing the Senate? Because that does stand out as not. especially. practical given that many candidates, DSA candidates, want to be in the United. States Senate. >> Well, they frame it as part of a broader. commitment to what they call. workingclass democracy, by which they. basically mean a more responsive. representative democracy. And you know.

they view the Senate as a not especially. representative institution. >> structurally. >> That's right. And I think it's fair to. say that on you know most if not all. these points there is broad agreement. among DSA members. Where there's not. necessarily agreement is how you go. about pursuing this. >> Meaning what exactly? >> DSA is a very complicated organization. inside but it's useful to think of it as. kind of a ven diagram with two big. overlapping circles. On one side, you.

have people who are more or less like. the Bernie AOC. wing of DSA. They basically have a lot. of those same policy priorities and more. importantly, they believe in pursuing. power the way that AOC is doing it. For. instance, actually contesting elections. on the Democratic ballot line and. winning a seat in Congress, winning a. voice in politics. Mhm. >> On the other side, in the other circle, you have a much more unruly, fractious.

array of people who broadly are. skeptical of that approach. They don't. necessarily oppose running candidates in. Democratic elections, but they are very. skeptical that pursuing power in the. Democratic party is really going to. produce a systemic change in the United. States that they are seeking. So what. would be the alternative path for them. to the change that they would like to. see? >> So DSA spends a lot of time organizing. people in labor unions and they believe.

that labor unions are a pathway to. achieving real political power. Others. in the organization have this kind of. like street politics theory of we should. be out there doing direct actions like. protesting in the streets and you know. that's the way to get to what we want. This is a very big it would seem and. fundamental disagreement and it would. seem to reflect the very diffuse nature. of the DSA itself and the fact that. there isn't one coherent philosophy or. strategy among all its different. components. It can't even agree on. whether politics is the right path to.

power. >> Right. That's right. I mean there's a. real ideological commitment to kind of. collective action and collective. decisionmaking in DSA which has its real. upsides. I mean, it has this fairly. incredible participatory culture that I. think that other democratic. organizations would really kill to have, but it also comes with real downsides. I. mean, if if your commitment is for. everybody to have a voice, the problem. is that everybody has a voice and not. everybody agrees at the end of the day. And like that comes very much to the for.

paradoxically when DSA is doing best and. when DSA candidates are doing best. because it sort of surfaces these really. fairly deep I think foundational. arguments over what DSA is doing and. that's been most true with AOC. There's. both one of the biggest figures in DSA. politics and also a very polarizing. figure inside the DSA. >> Polarizing how? Well, she kind of lands. at this real division of what does it. mean to participate in Democratic. politics. She's been in office since. 2019 and has been sort of functioning.

inside of the Democratic coalition in. Congress. And that requires making. compromises at times. That requires. taking positions that are maybe not 100%. in line with what DSA has to say about. something. And for DSA, that's a bigger. deal than it might be in the Democratic. party or the Republican party where. there's a sort of understanding that. like different people run on different. platforms a little bit to be elected in. different places. >> With DSA, so much of the kind of.

foundational idea of the post Bernie DSA. was that this was an organization that. was going to produce a different kind of. left-wing candidate that was really. going to be accountable to something. outside of their own career interests, outside of the Democratic party. And so. the idea of what they kind of euphemize. as as candidate discipline, which is. really how much does this candidate. stick to our line on things is really. central for a lot of factions inside of. DSA. And AOC kind of runs a foul of that. because she does sort of tack away from. DSA on some things. >> Tack away how though? I I just want to.

be really clear on where she falls short. because what you seem to be really. saying is that the DSA has a clear set. of litmus tests and I wonder where. someone like AOC is running a foul of. this. >> Yeah, it's become an issue at times on. Israel Palestine. Even though she is in. general a very pro Palestinian. politician, she hasn't held the line. 100% of the time with where DSA is. So, you know, they fault her for not being.

sort of loud enough and unequivocal. enough on things like the idea of uh. boycott devest and sanctioning Israel. >> And to a lot of factions of the. organization, that makes her just a. non-starter in general. >> And there's real disagreement even at. the top of the national organization. over whether the idea of her running for. president is a good thing. I mean, you. literally have, you know, there's two. chairs of the organization, two. co-chairs. One of them is actively. involved in an effort to draft AOC to.

run for president and the other one. doesn't think that it's a good idea and. is is sort of ambiguous about whether. she would support AOC if she were the. candidate. Wow. And so. >> that's part of why some candidates like. AOC who's not backed by the national DSA. don't actually seek its endorsement. They kind of work with their own local. chapter. In her case, it's the New York. chapter, which is very supportive of AOC. and is much more on the kind of. pragmatic end of these politics. So, there's just all these kind of like. unusual layers to DSA politics that.

really do, I think, affect its ability. to kind of operate coherently at a. national scale. >> Well, to that point, how are candidates. who run on the DSA label thinking about. the divisions that you're describing? And do they consider the possibility. that it might just be a heck of a lot. easier to take the DSA's ideas rather. than necessarily. work within the DSA or call themselves.

DSA and just kind of put some space. between them and all this complexity. >> You know, it's a question that I put to. DSA candidates I talked to in recent. weeks because it is a really legitimate. question. I mean, at this point, a lot. of what's in the DSA platform, certainly. the stuff that the candidates really. emphasize is stuff that you could run on. as a progressive Democrat without the. socialist label. And the socialist label. is still not great when it comes to the. general electorate in this country. A. minority of Americans have a favorable.

view of socialism. It's a pretty big. minority, but it is a minority. There is. like a pretty clear, incredible sense. that running as a socialist is a real. ceiling in a general election. And so if. that's the case, if these ideas are. important to you, why wouldn't you just. run on the ideas and shut up about the. socialism part? And I asked a couple of. the candidates who I talked to, and the. answers I got were interesting. A word. that came up a lot was accountability. That they felt like running as a DSA. endorsed socialist was an accountability.

measure for them as candidates and for. them in the eyes of their voters. that. this was an actual program that they. were subscribing to, that they were. going to be held to, and that they. looked forward to being held to. But. this is also something that I think. makes sense in a Democratic primary. principally. I think how you navigate. that in the general election is a whole. other question. >> Is nominating a socialist outside of a. kind of safe blue jurisdiction in a. statewide race, is this just asking for.

trouble in a race that Democrats would. really like to win? >> Right. But what's not untested is the. reality, for instance, in many of these. Democratic primaries, that some of the. key base of the Democratic party, especially black voters, are not finding. Democratic Socialist candidates as. appealing as traditional Democratic. candidates. So, how do DSA candidates. and the organization think about that.

reality, especially when it comes to. general elections, not just primaries, that DSA is not finding a home with some. hugely important constituencies for the. Democrats. >> I think that's another thing where this. is changing a little bit. How much it's. changing is very much up for debate. It. is the case that the sort of median DSA. voter was a college educated. professional who was probably downwardly. economically mobile. >> Not a picture of the working class, much.

less the working class of color in this. country. That has sort of evolved over. time though. I mean, it's worth noting. that, you know, Mandani won with a. bigger map than previous DSA candidates. in New York. Donovan McKenna won a. plurality black district in Detroit and. you also saw a pretty different pattern. of DSA support at least in the exit. polls from Angie Nixon's primary win in. Florida. So there is reason to think. that the picture is not quite as as. totally fixed as DSA's critics would.

have it. >> Interesting. Well, let's now turn from. the DSA as a fractious organization to. the Democratic Party itself and how its. leaders are thinking about this DSA. moment [clears throat]. and this DSA insurgency that's taking. out some of its members and its. preferred candidates. What is the broad. feeling among the Democratic party's.

leadership about whether the DSA is. something that they can harness, whether. it's something they should embrace or if. the DSA is something to be feared? >> Yeah, I think that's a very live debate. in the Democratic party right now. I. mean, you see people like Gavin Newsome. who is sort of arguing that DSA should. be welcomed into the Democratic. coalition and that the party should. really be in the business of addition. and not subtraction as he put it. You. know, this is an energized constituency.

that has really tapped an energy and. particularly a younger energy that the. Democratic party has really struggled to. tap, >> right? Why would you turn your back on. that? >> Right? like they have sort of figured. out how to appeal to these people who. you know this really kind of broad. discontent with the state of the country. right now and this is basically a net. positive for the Democratic party this. line of argument goes that if you can. figure out how to bring these people in. as real coalitional partners that you. know this is really to the good of the.

broader party. >> but critics of the DSA kind of a mix of. some of the reform-minded Democrats and. also a lot of people who are really just. ideological moderates you know They. argue that this is a fundamental. misunderstanding of the DSA and its. project that this is not an organization. that sees itself as part of that. coalition. >> That their relationship with the. Democratic party is really not additive. You know, it's actually parasitic. >> Meaning what? >> Well, to this point, they have not. proven capable of flipping really any.

seats anywhere in this country. The only. places they've won in elections have. been very safely blue districts or. cities, which they've succeeded in. making more lefty than they were before. And so the argument that is sort of most. pointedly made about them is what. exactly are you guys doing for us? >> You talk about revitalizing the. Democratic party, but you can't do. anything you want to do without winning. congressional majorities, Senate. majorities that you have zero. demonstrated ability to do. So that. argument is basically if you're only. replacing Democrats in Democratic.

districts with Democratic socialists, how are you advancing the cause of. winning swing districts? How are you. growing the majorities in the House and. in the Senate that would actually make. it possible for your agenda or any. version of a Democratic agenda to be. enacted in Congress? >> That's right. And when you ask DSA. leaders about this, they will make an. argument that they are advancing popular. political ideas. ideas that if they are. actually implemented or embraced by a. party will bring out new voters who have. not voted before and change the math in.

politics in a fundamental way. I would. say that that is entirely waiting to be. proven that there's really no evidence. of their ability to do that. >> I think that it's fair to say the burden. of proof rests with the DSA on that. [music]. If these people ever do get in charge, we might as well turn out the lights and. make sure the cat's inside and go to bed. cuz it's over. These people are are. crazy as a bed bug.

>> And in the meantime, Republicans clearly. see these same ideas as a massive. liability for the Democratic [music]. party. >> The DSA is calling the shots. And what. you see is a party that is tilting so. far left. They're not just running on. different policies. They are running to. destroy the country and. >> they've been pointing to the DSA all. summer quite happily and and like saying. look at all these policies they're. throwing out there. >> So if we talk about abolishing prisons.

then does that make society better? I. mean is there anybody that should be. incarcerated? [music] I mean rapists, child predators, murderers. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the long-term plan when. we think about most people who are in. prison, they are mostly in prison for. crimes of poverty. Um, so when we. >> But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the really. >> Yeah. You know, Fox News has on the. co-chairs of the DSA to sort of defend. this platform live on the air. >> Okay. But you do think some people need. to be locked away from society.

>> Some people are not able to be. functional members of society. That's. true. But what does that look like to. keep the rest of us safe? You know, it's. we're talking about safety. We're not. >> Yeah, there's a sense that the more out. there aspects of what DSA wants to do is. going to be a real liability for not. just DSA candidates, but for Democrats. more broadly if this becomes really. associated with the party brand. defunding, decriminalizing open borders. We have run that play and [music] gotten. our butts kicked. We don't need to do it. a second time to see if the movie turns. out any different. [music].

Hm. So, in that sense, Democratic party. leaders do have something to fear here. with the DSA, but it strikes me that. those Democratic leaders might not. really have a choice at this point. The. DSA is strong. It's strength is growing. It seems like it's here to stay. And I. say that because we have a pretty recent. model of this happening in our politics.

on the other side of the aisle. And here. I'm thinking about the rise of the Tea. Party on the American right back in 2009. 2010. Obviously the Tea Party stands for. something very different than the DSA. It's an anti-government movement, but. its origins feel quite similar to what. we're seeing now. this insurgency that. campaigns against and takes out. incumbents and then its ideals slowly. but surely become the ideology of the.

entire party, the Republican party in. that case. Is that a fair comparison? And is the Tea Party a potential. blueprint for the DSA to follow? >> That's an interesting question. And I. think the two comparisons that are. always sort of there to make to DSA, although people on both sides of. American politics would no doubt. vigorously dispute these, is whether it. is more like the Tea Party or more like. MAGA. You know, the Tea Party, as you. say, is was a movement that arose in.

response to the financial crisis, more. importantly to Barack Obama's first. presidency, and did much better than DSA. in terms of seizing ground in Congress. very quickly. They won dozens of seats. in 2010 and they unquestionably. succeeded in pushing the Republican. party to the right and establishing. themselves as a power center within that. party. Along the way, they did not. achieve everything that they set out to. achieve and were in many respects sort. of assimilated into the Republican.

party. >> You know, that's one scenario. The other. scenario is that DSA is something more. like MAGA, a movement that sort of. initially establishment Republicans kind. of made fun of and didn't take seriously. and then accommodated and then it. eventually devoured the party. That was. obviously only really possible with the. presence of somebody like Donald Trump. who doesn't exist in DSA. >> Right. At the moment, the DSA does not. have that, a single unifying national. leader who can wrangle all of its.

factions. In fact, its structure seems. to put those factions very much at the. center of the organization. And that makes me wonder, how does DSA. move from insurgency to something more. enduring in our politics? >> Well, the thing about DSA is that in. spite of all of its organizational. problems, some of its chapters, particularly New York, have succeeded in. producing really dynamic, successful. politicians.

>> They've produced Mumani. they've. produced AOC and that's why I think. people who both want to see the DSA. succeed on the national level and people. who are very concerned about DSA agree. that the real gamecher in this and you. know possibly the necessary gamecher. from DSA's standpoint is [snorts] a. presidential candidacy a strong. contender who comes out of DSA who isn't. just a socialist like Bernie Sanders but. is actually a DSA candidate. >> you know that is something that I think. everybody agrees could really transform. the place of DSA in American in.

politics. >> I think I know why that will transform. the DSA and its place in politics, but. just explain why it will be so important. that a homegrown DSA presidential. candidate would be the game changer. >> I mean, if you look at the arc of. American political history, ideas that. are coming in from pretty far outside of. the mainstream of politics struggle to. colonize those politics from the ground. up. What is really invaluable is to have.

a head of state or even a strong. presidential candidate bring those ideas. in a very high-profile and central way. in front of the majority of the American. population and sort of acclimatize them. to these ideas, normalize these ideas. FDR as president did that with these. progressive policy ideas that again we. might in another context have associated. with socialism, right? Ronald Reagan did. the same thing with conservatism. Conservatism was a marginal movement in.

the Republican party for years and it. was really sort of the concerted efforts. of Reagan that really brought that not. just into the mainstream of American. politics but made it really the sort of. unconquerable like doctrine inside of. the Republican party eventually. Donald. Trump in his own way has clearly done. that with a lot of ideas that were. considered wildly outside of American. politics a decade ago. There's really no. substitute for a politician at that. national level who is able to just sort.

of center a political program day in and. day out. So just game that out. Pretend. for a moment that there is a very. successful Democratic socialist. presidential campaign and that. candidate, maybe it's AOC, maybe it's. somebody else, wins the nomination and. suddenly DSA is the national face of a. Democratic party. I think if you have a. democratic socialist running as the. democratic nominee in a presidential. election, you end up with a referendum.

on socialism that we have never had in. this country. You know, in one scenario, this normalizes the ideas that. socialists have been arguing for in this. country for over a century. this word. that has for years had this taboo around. it loses the kind of scariness with even. a general electorate that is still by. the polls wary of the idea of socialism. The other scenario is that this. functionally destroys the Democratic. party for years and its ability to win.

an election. It's saddled with this. label that remains unpopular and that's. what people think of when they think of. Democrats. And so, you know, this is a conversation. that's very live right now inside of the. DSA. [music]. What kind of compromises are going to be. required to make a Democratic socialist. candidate tolerable to the majority of. Americans? And are they willing to make. those compromises, >> right? >> Or does all this end in big public. ruptures, you know, that take the DSA.

from this moment of ascendancy to a. moment of irrelevance that socialists. have experienced throughout most of. their history in this country. We don't. know. And I think you we've seen the. beginning of this conversation in the. midterms, but it's really only the. beginning of this conversation. [music]. >> Well, Charlene, thank you very much. >> Thanks for having me. [music].

>> We'll be right back. [music]. Here's what else you need [music] to. know today. On Tuesday, Canada made good. on its promise to match US tariffs. [music] dollar for dollar, announcing. levies as high as 50% on hundreds of. American products, [music] including. clothing, appliances, and seafood.

The tariffs, which cover $20 billion of. US imports, come after Canada's Prime. [music] Minister Mark Carney cut off. negotiations with the Trump. administration, saying it [music] was. incapable of offering a fair deal that. respected Canada's sovereignty. and. [music]. >> Dolly Parton.

[music]. >> who ruled country music and much of pop. culture for six decades with an outsiz. personality. Down home wit and. Appalachian twang has died at the age of. 80. Way [music] to make. it. all. >> Partner was a stunningly prolific. songwriter. >> You have written more than 3,000 songs.

>> Oh, at least every drawer, every box, every in my basement, in my houses. I. got songs stuck everywhere. I pull out a. drawer to get some panties. I pull out a. drawer to get some drawers. I'll find a. song in there. That's just what I do. who wrote about growing up poor, about. love, jealousy, and empowerment. [music]. >> Songs that were performed by the likes.

of Tina Turner, Norah Jones, and Whitney. Houston. But were always the most. poignant when they were sung by Dolly. Pardon herself. This one. In everybody's. life, there's [music] a special person. Person that you love more than you love. anybody else. There's a song about that. special person in my life. [music] It's. called I will always love you. [music]. If [singing] I.

should stay, thank [music] you. I would only be in. [singing]. your way. [music]. So. >> today's episode was produced by Caitlyn. O'Keefe and AA Churraved. >> with help from Lexi Dial. >> It was edited by Rachel Quester and Mark. George. Contains music by [music] Pat. McCusker, Marian Lozano, and Dan Powell,

and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our. theme music is by Wonderly. That's it for the daily. I'm Michael. Boro. See you tomorrow. [singing]. >> Love [music] you. Thank you. [applause]. Thank you.

Thank you so much. We'll be right back. after this commercial. Thank you.