The Reinvention of Jan. 6

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. daily we. have since the riot on Capitol Hill four. years ago they were peaceful they were. orderly and meek these were not. insurrectionists they were sightseers. president-elect Donald Trump and his. allies have set out to sanitize the. events of that day they're not. destroying the capital they obviously. rever the capital changing it from a day. of violence into in Trump's words that.

was a day of love a day of love and it. was love and. peace as he prepares to take office for. his second term Trump said he plans to. issue pardons to some of those. responsible throwing hundreds of. criminal cases into doubt as everyone. knows it will be my great honor to. pardon the peaceful January 6 protesters. or as I often call them the hostages. their.

hostages today my colleague Alan foyer. talks to one of those riers and explains. how the pardons could help rewrite the. story of what happened on January. [Music]. 6th it's Monday January. 6th Alan welcome back to the show thanks. for having me so Alan it's been exactly. four years since January 6th you've been. our guide for understanding that day and.

the legal consequences for those. involved Donald Trump's win of course. throws those consequences into doubt but. before we get to how this landscape. might all be about to change let's start. with the basics so as of today January 6. 20125 give us a summary of where things. stand with the legal cases of the people. who. participated sure so this is been really. my full-time job since January 6. 2021 and just to take a quick detour.

here there's not just the criminal cases. that we're talking about there are other. efforts that have taken place to kind of. figure out what happened on January 6. let's not forget Donald Trump's second. impeachment was all about his role in. inciting the riot at the capital there. was a very expansive Congressional. investigation into this and then of. course there's what you're talking about. the Justice Department's criminal cases. that have been brought with regard to. gen 6 and that is the largest single.

investigation in the history of the. justice department wow interesting yeah. and this has involved enormous amounts. of Visual Evidence and witness evidence. and this cell phone seized and tips from. ordinary people around the country it's. really been an unprecedented and a. massive undertaking by federal. prosecutors so at the moment we have. about 1,

1600 people who are facing criminal. charges and of those most um so a little. over a thousand have either gone to. trial or plad guilty but what's been. most remarkable about all of this is. that of the more than 200 people who. have gone to trial only two have been. acquitted fully so when you look at this. overall the criminal justice system has. rendered a pretty clear verdict about.

what happened on January 6th it was a. day of violence and an attempt to imped. a central Act of American democracy that. resulted in more than 140 police. officers being injured and also led to. the deaths of four protesters and yet. despite all of those efforts despite. that very clear verdict to really make a. historical record and to bring to.

account those who were responsible here. we are right four years later and all of. that is in doubt because President elect. Donald Trump has a very different. version of what happened on that day and. he's promised on day one of his. presidency he said that he will pardon. January 6 defendants on a case-by casee. basis in fact he said within the first. hour of his presidency he'd do that so. we come to you again today Alan to help. us understand that and and what the. consequences would be if it happens yeah.

I I've been trying to understand that. myself I mean let's think back here you. might remember that. immediately after the attack Donald. Trump called January 6 and I'm quoting a. heinous attack on the United States. capital and he promised that all the law. Breakers that day would pay but a as I. followed this story I I've watched that. not only has Trump changed that.

narrative changed his position on it uh. but that he's done so almost in a kind. of private dialogue with the riers. themselves collectively it's as if. they've come up with an alternate. reality to explain what happened on. January 6 and at least for me I I found. that if you want to understand that. other reality and all of the really. important legal and political uh.

implications that emerg from it you kind. of have to get inside the dialogue that. Trump was having with the January 6. riers first now look I mean I found that. most people who have been charged in. these cases are not willing to do long. on the record interviews but I did meet. one guy who was willing to kind of sit. down and walk me through his whole story.

with the idea of hey what's gonna happen. if and when Trump issues pardons hi. Anthony hi Allan hi his name is Anthony. V I am currently 32 years old he's kind. of a young guy he's from Indiana and he. entered the capital on January 6 didn't. hurt anyone didn't break anything and he. was ultimately convicted at trial of. four low-level misdemeanor including. disorderly conduct so in that way he's. pretty typical of most January 6.

defendants the majority of whom were. charged with only relatively minor. offenses except for one thing a moment. um I am currently seeking Refuge from. the current United States government um. he's on the. run from the law yeah like he's on the. lamb he was supposed to report to prison. after he got sentenced and he just. didn't he skipped wow that's.

Alan do you normally talk to people who. are on the run from the law it's. happened a couple times okay so tell me. more about Anthony sure I am a family of. Vietnamese immigrants they all came over. legally from Vietnam um as a result. Anthony's father fought alongside US. troops during the war against CET Kong. and after the war his family immigrated. to the United States and Anthony was. born here or anything like that we just. love this country and uh you know the. freedom and everything else that it. symbolize for us coming from Vietnam his.

background might sound kind of. surprising but actually he's got a. pretty typical story for a trump. supporter he gave me that persecution. complex which made me started paying. attention to him he saw Trump as an. outsider candidate in. 2015 they K him of being like sexist. racist all these different things he. doesn't trust the mainstream media like. hang on what's going on why why is the. media like all. seemingly coordinating against Trump.

with all these like demonstrably false. headlines that are all out of context if. you just like look into it a little bit. more and Flash forwarding to the 2020. election election night arrives and as. we saw with a lot of trump supporters. Anthony does not believe it's. true you know oh new votes came in or. whatever oh man there's like a lot of uh. gaming potential with these male and. balads there's um a lot of like security.

gaps like Pennsylvania they illegally. changed their voting um deadlines no. signature verification was done for. these. ballots so many different things like. made me. suspicious he's just steeped in this. world of election conspiracy theories. not that he would see it that way it. kind of like made me look for some sort. of opportunity to do something about it. and uh I think in like December they. were talking about the stop the steel. rally like oh you can. he ultimately finds out that there's.

going to be a pro Trump stop the steel. rally in washing on January 6 and he's. like yes my mom and I he did the call I. want to be there his family wants to go. with him basically we were just there to. like make sure it was. legit and he ends up joining a group of. Vietnamese rally go people are giving.

out like Vietnamese butt me sandwiches. to everyone this just like a excited. fervor I would. say and so Anthony and his mom follow. the crowd and as he gets closer to the. capital building itself he notices. people trying to go over the fence but. to him at that point it doesn't really. seem violent you would hear booms and um. every so often you might smell some. spice in the air but like I never saw.

anything unted in there um and he ends. up just walking with his mom right into. the capital building I remember my mom. and I were just sitting on this bench. and uh we're observing um this guy in. like Colonia Regal he was playing the. flute um Amazing Grace on the flute. people were just like sitting around. watching him and they have never been. inside the capital before and it's quite. a a moving experience for them when I. walked in in it it felt like a religious.

experience like the the Rotunda Dome I I. find out later is like inspired by the. same dome in um St Peter's Basilica and. um going you I was just like a watch. with like wow this is. glorious so Alan I was actually in the. capital that day as well I was covering. this event for the times I walked with. the crowd to the capital and then inside. the capital with the riers and you know. it was an interest split screen because.

I saw people walking around kind of just. like in awe as you're describing Anthony. doing you know with selfie sticks. sitting in chairs laughing kind of like. they were tourists at a tour of Capitol. Hill but then I also saw people breaking. Windows obviously there was a lot of. violence there that day and you know it. just allowed everyone to emerge with. their own story of what happened that. day like everyone had their own. narrative which for them was true and it.

sounds like Anthony had his own. narrative yeah yeah I I I would agree. with you entirely that not one thing. happened on January 6 a lot of different. things happened on January 6th but even. the people who saw themselves as. peaceful protesters contributed in some. part to the larger chaos of what was. essentially a riot that culminated in. this historic and violent result but. yeah yes Anthony had his own very.

particular story and version of. events I felt like it was a situation. where like normally you wouldn't be. allowed here but I thought that this was. like a very special opportunity that we. earned to be able to exercise our. rights like the end of V for Vendetta. like obviously normally like those. people wouldn't be allowed to like U do. what they're doing like assemble and. whatever in front of their Parliament.

but by massing together peacefully from. my eyes they were able to make the. voices. heard in his mind what he was doing was. this kind of expression of democracy he. was out there petitioning the government. right he wanted redress for his. grievances right that's how he saw it. and I will never forget having read the. FBI interview of one rioter who actually.

was quite violent but at the key moment. at the height of this interview the guy. kind of breaks down crying and tells. these federal agents I thought I was the. good guy that. [Music]. day so Anthony his mom stay for like 20. 30 minutes until basically they're. kicked out by a capital police officer. gu's like got to go and they do they. leave the building and they eventually. make their way to the DC Metro you know. I see like the first like bits of news.

coming through my phone like all the. initial headlines like riter storm the. capital um writers like blocked the vote. or whatever and all these things like. they they kind of caught me by surprise. so like and he's getting the news in. real time from his phone about busted. windows and beat up cops and you know. like the real bad stuff terrible stuff. that happened that day and frankly he. says that he's shocked about all that. cuz it didn't match his sort of personal.

window on January 6 so like when I was. like reacting to it with friends on like. social media DMS and stuff I was. basically mocking media about like oh. yeah we stormed the capital like we walk. right in like you know just I thought it. was like just like over the top. embellishment so I was just like having. fun with it as you learned more about. the day did your feeling towards the day. change in any measurable or important. way. um I did think that uh people were.

starting to say like this is like a big. setup or whatever and uh you know it did. seem to like be that way and what starts. to happen is that not only does he cling. to the idea that January 6 was not a. violent event but in fact he begins to. develop this idea that all the violence. that took place that day was the fault. of others not the.

rioter it was police brutality or maybe. this was all kind of a setup to begin. with right was the Federal Government. itself not setting security perimeters. in the right way you know like where's. the National Guard and these questions. began to make him doubt the culpability. like who's responsible for the violence. so despite the footage of the violence. around the capital that day Anthony is.

kind of sorting through it all and. landing on a pretty different version of. events namely that the whole thing had. been set up yes and that's uh quite. common belief among January 6 defendants. and you know in the year after the. attack it really took hold in the. broader right-wing media okay so we know. that's not the end of Anthony's story. because he does eventually get arrested. when does that actually happen it's. about 6 months later and he is picked up.

by a local FBI field office in Indiana I. think the first thing I said to like the. officers like ah you got me and um I. remember like kind of thinking out loud. to the two interviewing agents as I was. like you know going through the. paperwork and such I like how can I beat. this and so he ultimately goes to trial. he chooses to sort of put the government. to his test you know I was like staring. in the malls of a kangaroo court but I.

just felt like I had to go with that. anyway I and during the trial. prosecutors end up citing text messages. that Anthony sent after the six saying. things like oh the cops had it easy that. day and it would be easy to go back to. the Capitol armed he also makes a. decision to attend a vigil that has been. going on at the local Washington jail. for years now and that's where many of.

the most violent January 6 defendants. are being held on pre-trial detention. it's called the freedom. corner so I just wanted to go there and. support the people that were stuck. behind bars uh awaiting their trial that. they haven't received yet suffering. through like God knows what conditions. and you have people who are flying flags. and eating snacks and they often call. into the jail to talk to the inmates and. they lie live stream broadcast with.

these inmates but like slth or whatever. like on the live streams like started. reporting me and then I think by is not. supposed to associate himself with any. other January 6 defendants or you know. people in that community and so that. decision on his part really irks judge. Tanya chuin who is probably best known. for having been the judge who was. assigned to Trump's own January 6 case. and she really kind of lays into Anthony.

about this particular issue so when it. comes to the moment of okay he's been. found guilty and now what's your. sentence she ends up sentencing him to n. months in prison which is as far as. these misdemeanor cases go it's on the. high end but of course we know that he. doesn't ultimately report free sentence. that's right he decides you know it. doesn't matter what the judge has said.

or what the law says he's not turning. himself in for what is supposed to be. his date in June to start serving his. prison ter know a couple of my heroes. were like Edward Snowden Julian Sange. like all these people that had to you. know flee to like find safety or. whatever and yet there's one more thing. that's informing Anthony's. decision you see.

[Music]. Trump has started campaigning explicitly. on a promise to pardon the January 6. riers yeah like I remember like of him. like um starting out campaign um rally. speeches whatever with the January 6 uh. prisoners choir reciting the national. anthem in fact at at the very first.

official rally that Trump holds for his. reelection campaign he takes the stage. to a recording of the National Anthem. being performed by a choir of January 6. inmates these are people who are in. prison in Washington DC for crimes they. committed on January. 6th well thank you very much and you see. the spirit from the hostages and that's. what they are as hostages I remember. hearing like um you know we're we're. like uh we're political hostages he's.

calling them hostages he's calling them. political prisoners were being very. unfairly treated by the weaponized. justice system as he has been as well. who would promise to like pardon um the. political Prisoners the first day we get. into office we're going to save our. country and we're going to work with the. people to treat those unbelievable. Patriots and they were unbelievable. Patriots and are and Anthony is hearing.

that message and thinking it's meant for. him like Trump is speaking to him yeah. the Republican candidate for president. is essentially validating Anthony's. version of events and he thinks to. himself why should I report to prison I. think I can get a. pardon of course what happens next is. that Trump wins the. election to me it was like I guess light. at the end of the tunnel um I was crying. happy tears other night all and the next.

few days. afterwards and there's this Title Wave. of optimism among the January 6. defendants and their families at the. freedom Corner that vigil outside the. jail that Anthony attended they pop. champagne bottles on Election night and. you just saw this whole Community being. absolutely certain that Donald Trump was. going to ride to their rescue and save.

them when I first got arrested I kind of. knew that this is a thing that's going. to be a process like it's going to take. a lot of time a lot of things to happen. for the tide to. turn and it was just going to take a lot. of patience and a lot of work to be able. to you know overcome it but I think. we're all like stronger for it now. [Music]. we'll be right.

back so Anthony and other participants. are expecting Pardons and we have reason. to believe that Trump will issue them. it's what he says he's going to do so. let's talk about the logistics and the. implications of this first the logistics. how exactly would this happen like is it. just a stroke of the pen I mean. basically it is the presidential pardon. power is enormous you know Trump would. just sort of write up an executive order. or sign a document and poof it's done.

like magic yeah and so the debate Now is. really about the scope of the pardons. that Trump is going to do you know is he. going to issue a total blanket amnesty. or is it going to be sort of more. targeted to people like Anthony who are. sort of nonviolent low-level misdemeanor. defendants and they're going to involve. not just the sort of question of. logistics. but really a political question and.

that's how much of a hit does he want to. really take if he's going to issue. pardons to people who say you know hit a. cop on the head with a 2x4 or maybe even. more so issue pardons to members of. far-right groups like The Proud boys and. oathkeepers who were found guilty of. sedici. conspiracy and do we have any indication. of which way Trump is going to go that's. the problem with Trump no of course not.

there's recent polling that suggests. that a majority of this country is not. interested in pardoning January 6. defendants but there's this debate that. has been sort of raging both on the. outside right there's advocates for the. family members and then that is sort of. seeped into Trump's Inner Circle and I. wouldn't want to call it either way at. this point right and as you're saying it. could all happen with a stroke of a pen. absolutely Alan it's pretty remarkable.

that with all of this prosecutorial work. that's gone into this to hold hundreds. of people to account all of this would. be thrown out and you know of course. that's important in its own right but it. does really set up the potential for a. broader meaning here like for example. what does it do to public trust in the. legal system oh I think it would be. quite destructive to the notion of the.

rule of law like I said this is the. largest investigation that the federal. prosecutors have undertaken since the. department was created in. 1870 amazing and so to sort of depending. on the scope of these pardons to sort of. undo all that work in an eye blink it'll. be you know somewhere between a gut. punch and the rug being pulled out from. under you you know choose your metaphor. and I think it could. a quite corrosive effect on trust in the.

system right and of course there's. another piece here which we've kind of. touched on but I want to bring back in. front of people which is the story of. what happened that day right so to what. extent do these pardons actually help. the people who participated and helped. the president rewrite the story of what. happened on January 6th well see that's. the remarkable thing so from Trump's. point of view and from the defendant's. point of view these pardons will not be. a sort of attack on the rule of law they.

will be an upholding of the rule of law. because these prosecutions from their. point of view have been deemed unjust. from the outset and so if Trump does. pardon these defendants it will be his. opportunity to kind of rewrite the. entire story of what the justice. department has been doing over the past. four years and he will be able to sort. of revise the story of the justice. department seeking accountability for an.

attack on American democracy into. positioning the justice department as. the villains who are out to destroy. democracy in essence and so it's going. to allow Trump to both have the impr. privat of the presidency to declare that. hey no crimes were committed at all that. day or at least it's going to allow him. to sort of Legally wash Away The Sins of. many of the people who are involved them. but the crazy thing is we have this.

whole record I mean beyond the. prosecutions we have all of these videos. we have this body cam stuff you know in. the modern internet age there's a record. so can the narrative just be flipped. like that no so you're you're absolutely. right in this internet age there's tens. of thousands of hours of January 6 video. out there and in fact there are people. who have been intimately involved in. scouring and cataloging that video who. are right now making sure that it.

doesn't disappear that that record that. bull workk of reality exists we've also. seen in recent weeks some of the federal. judges in Washington who have heard. these cases and know them better than. anyone have kind of stood up in public. in written and oral rulings against the. idea that January 6 was a nothing of. they have defended the seriousness of.

that day in quite remarkable public. utterances interesting uh actually let. me read one right here I it's from a. sentencing Memo by uh a judge named. Royce Lamberth who was actually a. Conservative Republican appointed by. Ronald Reagan it says I have been. dismayed to see distortions and outright. falsehoods seep into the public. Consciousness I have been shocked to. watch some public figures try to rewrite.

history claiming riers behaved in quote. an orderly fashion unquote like ordinary. tourists or martyz convicted January 6. defendants as political prisoners or. even incredibly hostages that is all. Preposterous H but at the same time yes. we live in a siloed information world. where people sort of see what they want. to see and so there will now be a bubble.

that exists that you know sort of has. the stamp of approval from the president. on it that nothing bad happened on. January. 6 Alan it's really incredible to be. watching this happen in the United. States I know comparisons are tricky but. I I spent a lot of my early career in. Russia and that's a place that's really. quite expert at whitewashing and just. having an alternative reality version of. History you know staling is seen by many. in Russia as the leader who made Russia.

Great and the fact that millions of. people died of starvation and in Mass. executions that's just not the dominant. story or really part of the story at all. at this point in part because people. don't want to see it that way so this. all feels very familiar to me in quite. an eerie way I mean look we don't know. what's going to be the final verdict. about all of this but there is a kind of. Soviet aspect to sort of erasing all of.

this right that is not how the January 6. defendants obviously see it they see. this as the lifting almost of Soviet. oppression on them and so that's why. there has been this tug of war all along. now who's going to win that war and. which version will eventually sort of. emerge as Victorious I I don't know that. that's above my pay grade but these. tensions about about the meaning of. January 6 have been there and there are.

practical ramifications to all of this I. think a lot of what the Eraser or. revision of the January 6 story could do. for Trump is that it's not only going to. diminish the culpability of his. supporters who were involved in the. attack or of course diminish his own. culpability but it could do something. else it could provide him with the kind. of ideological ground to move forward.

into fulfilling his own promises to seek. revenge on those of his enemies who took. part in the attempts to hold him. accountable for January 6 and that's. already starting to happen right it's. absolutely already starting to happen. just recently Trump's Congressional. allies released a report recommending. that Liz Cheney the former Wyoming. congresswoman who was the vice chair of. the January 6 committee that recommended. that Trump be charged with crimes in.

connection with January 6 should herself. face an FBI investigation and you know. Trump is also seeking to install. loyalists in the FBI and the justice. department who may indeed carry that out. in the end I mean I think these things. are not. unrelated when you position yourself as. the victim you then have the moral. standing to seek retribution against. your enemies mhm if you rewrite the. history of what happened on January 6th.

it allows you to change the heroes to. villains the villains to. Heroes I mean Anthony is certainly well. aware of this after our interview he. told me he's now in Canada he's forly. asked for Asylum there but he's also. kind of just biting his time uh waiting. around until Trump comes back into. office and he really does seem to. believe not only that the winners write.

history but that he and the other. January 6 defendants are themselves. poised to be the. winners that they are now in a position. to write what could be the final chapter. on January. 6 there's a meme that's been circulating. around for probably at least a few. months years now um saying January 6. will go down in history as a day the. government staged a riot to cover up the. fact that they certified a fraudulent. election and um I think that's how.

history will remember January 6 do you. and you believe that I do and you. believe that history will believe that. yeah Alan thank you thanks for having. [Music]. me we'll be right back.

here's what else you should know. today distinguished guests the president. of the United States and Dr. Biden over the weekend for his final. time in office Joe Biden bestowed the. presidential medal of freedom the. nation's highest civilian honor Hillary. rodam Clinton. in doing so he singled out several.

public foes of his successor. president-elect Donald Trump including. Hillary rodm Clinton Trump's Democratic. opponent in 2016 as a lawyer she. defended the rights of children as first. lady she fought for Universal Health. Care and declared women's rights are. human rights as Senator she helped New. York George Soros the activist liberal. billionaire who Trump and his allies. have mocked for years born into a Jewish. Family in Hungary George soros's escaped.

Nazi occupation to build a life of. freedom for himself and countless others. around the world educated in for Biden. the ceremony was an unmistakable message. of support for a political and financial. establishment that Trump is eager to. replace in the coming months. congratulations but let's remember our. sacred effort continues have to keep. going as my mother would say we got to. keep the faith amen God bless you all.

and may God protect our church please. enjoy the. re today's episode was produced by ASA. chatra and muj zadii with help from Nina. Feldman Eric krupy and Mary Wilson it. was edited by Michael benois research. assistance by Susan Lee contains. original music by Dan Powell Maran. Lozano and Sophia lman and was. engineered by Alysa Moxley with help.

from Carol. Sabo our theme music is by Jim brunberg. and Ben Lanser of. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Sabrina Tavern see you tomorrow. [Music].