The Parents Aren’t All Right

from The New York Times I'm Michael. babbaro this is the. [Music]. daily for years research on hyperten. parenting has focused on all the ways. that it can hurt children but now the US. government is reframing that. conversation and asking how our new era. of parenting is actually bad for parents.

themselves today my colleague Claire C. Miller on why raising children is now a. risk to your. health it's Wednesday October. [Music]. 9th CLA thank you for doing this episode. with us this is going to be an. interesting conversation because. inevitably I suspect it's going to end. up being a little bit about us we're.

both parents and we're talking about. parenting yeah how old are your kids. mine are two and three mine are eight. and 12 I. win you're in a busier phase that's for. sure right and by whenn I mean my. situation is a little more challenging. but just a little just a little bigger. kids bigger problems is what they say it. becomes less physically demanding but. it's more mentally. demanding all right maybe you went so I. want to start by asking you to.

describe what our Surgeon General just. said about parents and parenting not a. subject we tend to think of as a classic. question of Public Health and the. Surgeon General so the Surgeon General. Vic Murthy put out an advisory these are. rare warnings past ones have been for. things like cigarettes or gun violence. and this time what he's saying is that. today's parents are not okay.

they're too stressed not the normal. amount of stress but what he's saying is. that parenting has become so difficult. that it's become an urgent Public Health. crisis huh basically slapping a warning. on the business of parenting right and. why exactly I mean I'm sure he has a. very good explanation but just on his. face parenting's never been easy it will. never be easy that's right and he does. say parenting has always been something. that brings both Joy and challenge at.

the same time but what's really. different now is that we have entered. this new era of parenting social. scientists call it intensive parenting. basically what it means is that we spend. a lot more time and money on our. children than previous generations did. incens of parenting was first described. by a sociologist named Sharon Hayes and. this is how she said it child- centered. expert guided emotionally absorbing.

labor intensive and financially. expensive the basic idea of intensive. parenting which I've reported on now for. many years as it's gotten even more. intensive is that kids need to be sort. of constantly educated and enriched and. engaged right it feels like in layman's. terms intensive parenting is being all. up in your kids' business and feeling. like parenting is a 24-hour job where. you're very invested in your children's.

social and intellectual growth in a very. Hands-On way that's right and so that's. like when you take a walk and you notice. that the leaves are changing you say to. your child look the leaves are changing. do you know what drives that do you know. why that's happening that means that. when they're doing you know a game on. the floor that you are down with them I. feel like you've been like watching me. secretly in my kitchen with my children. and I mean of course this is how. children learn right but it's really. gotten to an extreme um the American.

Academy of Pediatrics for example says. that when children watch TV it should be. co- viwed the parent should be sitting. with them watching TV with them hitting. Paws to talk about what's happening on. TV what they can learn from it and I. mean I think a lot of parents have used. TV as their chance to go in the room and. cook dinner so this idea that when we. are with our kids we need to be. constantly engaged in teaching them I. want to ask you Claire if what you're. describing this concept of intensive.

parenting is widespread enough to be a. Public Health crisis I would imagine. that what you're describing might be the. province of certain parents who have the. financial wherewithal and in a sense the. luxury to parent in this intensive way. and therefore that it might not be a. vast widespread collective experience. and therefore perhaps not a nationwide. public health issue so when this style.

of parenting started it was certainly an. upper middle class phenomenon but a. variety of research has shown that it. has spread across the income Spectrum. across racial groups that this is now. considered by parents the optimal way to. parent your children if you have less. money if you have a job that allows for. less time at home you obviously have. less ability to carry it out but you. still feel the pressure so in some ways. that's even more stressful okay so we're. all basically intensive parenting now.

and why why are we participating in this. stressful intensive Hands-On. never-ending form of parenting so a lot. of things began to change around the. time that we began to do this one is. that kids born in the early 80s when you. and I were both born are the first. generation of kids in America to have. just as much of a chance of doing better. than their parents financially as worse. before it was sort of a definition of. the the American dream that each.

generation did a little bit better and. that is no longer a guarantee so there's. this anxiety that kids won't do well. that they will fall out of their class. that they need to really have the utmost. education and enrichment in order to. succeed as adults one way that that. started to show up was that college. became a lot more competitive and much. more necessary for achieving this middle. class wage what the social scientists I.

talk to today is that our society has. become so worried about the importance. of a college degree about this fear that. your kids will grow up to be. unsuccessful adults and not be able to. support themselves and how that filters. down is that we feel this pressure to. sort of be optimizing our kids all the. time optimizing their resumes preparing. them for college preparing them for this. future in a way that parents really. didn't feel that stress before so. intensive parenting should be viewed as. a kind of striving.

parenting driven by economic insecurity. like a kind of guar of people hope a. better outcome for their children at a. time when there are very few assurances. that their children will do as well or. better than them that's fascinating. that's exactly it and you know as Norms. change you look around and you see other. people doing it and so even for parents. who this might not be top of mind it. sort of just gets in the air that we. breathe that our kids need to do all. these things in order to succeed H you.

started Claire to hint at this idea that. intensive parenting is a break from what. came before it and I think it would be. useful to situate this new form of. parenting that the Surgeon General has. just identified as problematic in a. larger history of how parents in this. country have parented right so the way. that we parent changes a lot over the. decades and in recent years every change.

has increased the pressure on parents if. we go back to the 70s that's when parent. was still a noun no one used it as a. verb it was something we were not. something we. did parents by and large did adult. things when their children just occupied. themselves so they were more likely to. do things in the presence of children. but not with their children maybe they. were playing tennis and their children. were on the playground nearby or they. were having drinks with their friends in. the living room and their kids were in.

the other room playing. alone you know we hear a lot of older. people talk about how different. childhood is today and what I always. hear them say is we used to run around. until the street lights came on or we. used to run around until our mom called. us in for dinner and there's some truth. to. that at the same time this is when the. women's movement is really ramping up. more and more women are going to college. and entering the workforce and so for. the first time parents are really having.

to Grapple with what that means when. both parents are working outside the. home there was a moment when people were. really advocating for the government to. step in and help families solve this. problem through policies like subsidize. child care or paid family leave those. things ultimately didn't happen and that. cemented an essential piece of the. American attitude towards. parenting which is that it's an. individual task it's not not a community.

one it's not one that you can count on. the government to help you. [Music]. with so the government basically is. saying to American families in this new. era of two parent working households. you're on your own that's right but soon. enough in the 80s we enter a new phase. of parenting that becomes much more. Hands-On and parenting becomes a verb. not just a noun and this was also a time.

when parenting books just exploded we. started getting this idea that we needed. to listen to experts that we couldn't. trust our own intuition about parenting. that we needed to learn how to do this. that this was a job we did and this. the80s is also when we got helicopter. parenting basically what that meant was. that children's physical safety became. Paramount uh that's Jenny but that's not.

Jenny's dad if she gets into that car. you may be looking at Jenny for the last. time this was the era when there were a. few high-profile child abductions. abductions have never actually been. common in America they weren't then they. aren't now but they were these kids. faces on milk curtain last year 50,000. children disappeared many of them from. nice safe neighborhoods it's okay come. on help me talk to your children about. not talking to strangers do it today.

right this is the era where I grew up so. it's atown Pats being kidnapped in New. York it's Adam Walsh whose dad would go. on to create America's Most Wanted this. becomes very scary for people even. though as you said it's never that. widespread that's exactly. right and so there was this idea that. kids needed to be constantly watched and. supervised playing and running around in. the street after school on your own that. was no longer safe it's 10 p.m. Do You. Know Where Your Children Are so if you.

watch TV in the 80s you probably. remember a famous PSA celebrities were. filming it it's 10 p.m. Do You Know. Where Your Children Are Andy Warhol hey. it's 10 p.m. Do You Know Where Your. Children Are Cindy. Lopper this idea of physical safety. spread to other things falling off your. bike falling out of a tree if an adult. wasn't there that was unsafe there was. this idea that parents sort of needed to. be hovering over their kids making sure.

that they were safe and that they were. [Music]. supervised but it is not yet at this. point in the'80s really about the. intellectual development and enrichment. and the idea that you're always supposed. to be teaching your children it's more. about you're always supposed to be. protecting them so how do we get to that. final frontier of parenting where we. began intensive. parenting because so far we're just in.

this area of parents stressed out by. worries mostly about their kids safety. so by the late 1990s we're influenced by. a lot of the things we've already. discussed there's Rising economic. anxiety there's Rising competition for. college there's still this lack of. public policy to support parents there's. also something. [Music]. new neuroscientists start to learn more. about young children's brains and how.

parents and the way that they interact. with their children can influence. that and parents really grasp on to this. idea that every interaction they have. with their child is shaping who they're. ultimately going to. [Music]. become we'll be right back.

[Music]. so CLA tell us about the brain science. that ends up driving or helping to drive. this final era of parenting intensive. parenting that we're in now so. neuroscientists really begin to focus on. the fact that children's brains are. moldable for a long time it was sort of. just assumed that your kid was born with.

this temperament and the certain set of. skills and they would sort of turn out. the way they were going to turn out but. Neuroscience began to show us that the. things that happen to us when we're. young can have lifelong effects on our. outcomes from birth to age three are the. most important years in a child's brain. development the time that defines who. they become. we talk about adverse childhood.

experiences when kids are exposed to. trauma or severe stress that that can. cause problems later on did you know. that the Pathways in your infant's brain. that deal with emotions are built and. strengthened when you respond day after. day to your baby smiles by smiling back. or picking him. up we also learned that when kids are. exposed to education and enrichment. early on that that can mold their brains. in a certain way. talk laugh sing and play peekaboo often.

so that children hear you speak we get. this research about the number of words. that kids hear before they're a certain. age and how this can impact their. vocabularies and reading comprehension. later. on this is when we got Baby Mozart this. idea that you would play classical music. outside your belly when your baby was in. utero because there was this science. that suggested that this molded their. brain in certain.

ways you know at this moment in the. episode we have to play Baby mozer I'm. excited to hear. [Music]. it but some parents take this to an. extreme with this idea that parental. inputs entirely shape a child's outcomes. and what they become and what that does. to parents is makes them feel like at. every turn at every moment it's their. responsibility to be. shaping their children's future outcomes.

and so fast forward a couple decades and. this kind of intensive. parenting has only gotten more intensive. and according to America's top doctor. art too intense for parents give us a. little bit more of a sense of what that. looks like I mean you mentioned it at. the beginning of our conversation the. tendency to describe the leaf falling. from the tree but I really want to get. kind of granular around this idea of. what intensive parenting focused on the.

responsibility of a parent to shape. early outcomes because those mean later. outcomes actually looks and feels like. so a statistic I think about all the. time from my reporting on this is that. working mothers today spend as much time. with their children as stay-at-home. mothers did in the. 1970s wow how's that possible well one. of the driving factors of intensive. parenting is this feeling of guilt. especially maternal guilt for working.

outside the home and there's this. feeling that as a result when you're not. working you need to be spending all your. time with your children so today it's. much much more likely that your children. are involved in your leisure time. they're involved in your exercise time. which is to say it's no longer exercise. time they're no longer playing on the. playground while you're playing tennis. with your friends they're instead. playing tennis with you right time use. data has shown that what this comes at. the spent of is parents sleep parents.

doing things for their own health and. parents spending time alone with friends. or their spouse and that very much. sounds like a more stressful form of. parenting that the Surgeon General is. talking about I mean when parents have. so little time to themselves and. therefore so little identity of their. own outside of parenting and their work. that is a less enjoyable form of. parenting period that's right and. another thing the surgeon in general. raised was social media and the sense of.

comparison there have been a lot of. surveys that say parents really feel. judged by other. parents so social media because it's. showing the victories in children's. lives and it's showing these happy. family moments is really making people. who see it feel less than feel insecure. feel like they're not Measuring Up In. This World In which they're already. feeling like the way that they're.

parenting and juggling everything is not. measuring up right Instagram some people. say the great Envy machine that's right. and I don't know about you quick tip for. parents who want to raise confident kids. but when I open Instagram now okay when. you discipline your kids keep it short. and sweet no long lectures don't tell. them about what I see you know not even. accounts that I follow is a bunch of. parenting advice this is a back to. school hack you don't want to miss it's. like Dr Becky I make menu for my kids.

the night before where they have to pick. their breakfast options telling me how. to parent and so it's either seeing. these happy families or seeing these. experts telling me what I need to be. doing differently and it's sort of. feeding this insecurity never Len to you. it's as simple as this when you say. we're all done with iPad after that one. show you are all done with iPad after. that one show oh yeah there's a couple. of them who are like everywhere and. they're always in front of a microphone. and they're always saying things that. you're like oh it's totally not how I. handle that yep.

[Music]. exactly and so all these concerns and. pressures have really added up what the. Surgeon General is talking about is. potentially toxic stress clearly major. stressors like living through a war have. immediate serious impacts on people but. research also shows that sort of. lowlevel persistent chronic stress have. really big effects on people's mental.

health and it also puts parents at risk. of more serious mental illness like. anxiety and depression the Surgeon. General CES data that shows that nearly. half of parents say that most days they. feel completely overwhelmed by the. stress numb or even non-functional and. that's compared with only a quarter of. people who aren't parents right so I. clearly from what you're. saying understand this stew of f factors. economic social social media that have.

conspired to make parenting the. stressful experience it now is and. stressful to the point of as you just. said depression feeling numb but to be. provocative for just a moment I want to. put all of that to the test is it. possible based especially on the brain. science that you talked about earlier. that intensive parenting for all of the. ways that it's bad for parents is good.

for most kids so good in fact that it's. still worth it so here's the thing. nobody disputes that parents being. engaged with their children spending. time with them teaching them things is a. bad thing that is of course a good thing. but there is a backlash you might have. heard of the freerange parenting. movement it's basically this idea a that. kids should still be able to run free.

until the street lights come on these. are parents who are actively resisting. both the helicopter parenting and the. Intensive parenting the problem with. free range parenting is that there are. no other kids out in the street after. school for their kids to run free with. right what's the point of a Freer range. kid if he has no other free range kids. to free range with it's quite hard to. implement there have been very valid. concerns that this kind of parenting. could be decreasing kids Independence.

and their resilience their ability to. solve problems on their own what does. the science say about that there has. been science that connects kids lack of. Independence today to some of the Mental. Health crisis that we're seeing among. kids there's something to be said for. kids being out there getting into a. conflict being scared having to solve a. problem on their own that helps them. understand that anxiety and stress are. something that they can cope with and.

you know build that toolbox to cope with. it there is some truth to that however. most parents are not doing it to that. extreme they're not letting their kids. solve no problems on their own and I. recently did a story that I thought was. really fascinating because it was not. the result I expected which is that. young adults who have been raised this. way are still really close with their. parents closer than in previous. generations they're talking to them more.

often they're texting them and both the. parents and the kids are happy with this. they're just having you know a full. adult relationship with their parents. and that is probably a good thing right. that feels like a pretty healthy. desirable Dynamic however if we inhabit. the space of our Surgeon General and. take at face value the idea that in this. new era of parenting parents are facing. a kind of public health problem I'm.

curious what the Surgeon General thinks. are some of the solutions that might. mitigate the parent problem of that. equation sure so he proposed a lot of. big structural Solutions things like. public policies Paid Family Leave. subsidized Child Care at a time when. child care has gotten so much more. expensive he talked about workplace. changes employers better helping parents. man manage the juggle and understand.

that their workers have lives outside of. work he talked about changes in. healthare healthcare providers being. more aware of parents mental health and. surely these things would all make big. differences provide relief for parents. they're also things that people have. been working on for a long time and you. know it's. slowo what I thought was really. interesting is he also talked about. cultural changes and the reason we. parent this way is because it's become. our culture that means that we could.

also change the culture it sounds Pie in. the Sky changing the culture it sounds. very difficult for individual people to. achieve but he mentioned these really. small things like if you have a friend. with a baby go over for 15 minutes and. offer to hold the baby while they take a. shower or take a nap he talked about the. need for more Community spaces places. like parks and libraries where families. can get out of sort of the insular. household and interact with other. families maybe to get some support. watching their children but also to talk.

about these things he even said that. parents should not feel guilt when they. take time for themselves to exercise or. take a nap or go out with friends that. that's really important to do for their. own health and ultimately if you're in. better mental health then that helps. your children too what does he say about. how your spouse makes you feel when you. take that nap. though maybe you could trade off off nap. times and maybe at the end of the.

evening you could also get a babysitter. and go out with your spouse totally just. asking questions here all right well I. have to end this by asking about you you. have become a real Authority on. parenting at the times you brought us. this reporting about intensive parenting. and the surgeon general's report are you. yourself an intensive parenter I pretty. much sure the answer is going to be yes. and to the degree that you are how. stressed are you how much are you.

re-evaluating all of this and are you. contemplating any kind of corrective of. any kind are you willing to start to. Freer range a little bit well of course. I'm an intensive parent because it's. hard not to be these days but I do take. this to heart I try to catch myself. there was this moment when my younger. son was in kindergarten and I heard. another parent talking about how her. kindergartener had a tutor and I was. like oh my God that hadn't occurred to. me do I need a tutor the same child was. in wreck soccer in kindergarten and went.

back in first grade and there were no. more kids from his school on the soccer. team so you know I texted some of the. parents and said where are they they're. like we signed up for private club it's. time to do private club when they're. seven years old and I was like oh my god. do I need to do that and I have caught. myself and you know not done those. things caught yourself and said I don't. need to give into this pressure that's. right I don't need to give into this. pressure you know I have had moments. where I'm like you know what you go to. the basement and watch TV for an hour. and I'm not not going to feel guilty. about this because I am parenting.

non-intensively right now so I do feel. some sense of like you can let go of the. guilt and embrace that a little. [Music]. bit all right well Claire this has been. extremely Illuminating and I'm grateful. for your time thank you very much thanks. for having me.

[Music]. we'll be right. back here's what else you need to day if. you're going to get out get out now time. will be running out very shortly if you. wait any longer for on Tuesday millions. of Floridians evacuated their homes as. hurricane Milton approached the state's. West Coast forecasters are calling.

Milton the strongest storm to emerge. from the Gulf of Mexico in 20 years. during a series of news conferences. Florida Governor Ron de santis warned. that the storm's lethal force would. extend across the Florida Peninsula and. would likely flood communities that are. still recovering from the state's last. hurricane a lot of the places is on the. west coast of Florida that did receive.

significant storm surge for Hurricane. Helen is projected to have even more. storm surge from Hurricane. Milton and the Scandal plagued. administration of New York city mayor. Eric Adams is. collapsing on Tuesday his first Deputy. Mayor resigned becoming the seventh. senior official to leave the mayor's. office over the past few weeks. Adams himself is under growing pressure.

to resign after being indicted on. federal corruption charges for allegedly. accepting illegal campaign donations and. gifts from the government of turkey in. return for political. favors today's episode was produced by. Alex Stern and Shannon Lynn with help. from Ricky nety and Sydney Harper it was. edited by Lexi di contains original.

music by Marian Lozano Pat mccusker and. sop landman and was engineered by Alyssa. Moxley our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben Lanser of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael Boro see you tomorrow.

[Music].