The Metamorphosis of Pete Hegseth

from New York Times I'm Michael borro. this is the. [Music]. daily now that Matt Gates has withdrawn. from consideration as attorney general. Donald Trump's most controversial. cabinet pick is his selection of Pete. hegf as Secretary of. Defense today my colleague Dave Phillips. on the three major deployments that.

shaped how hex Seth views the military. and why if confirmed he's so dead set. UND disrupting its. leadership it's Tuesday November. 26th Dave welcome back it's been a long. time for me since we've last spoken and. it's nice to see your face ah you too so. Dave when comes to the subject of what.

we're going to be talking about today. Donald Trump's pick for Secretary of. Defense Pete Heth what's probably best. known about him at this point is that he. faces a very serious accusation of. sexual assault which we will return to. within this conversation right and on. top of that that he lacks the. traditional background for becoming. Secretary of Defense his latest job was. as a Fox News host but what's less well. understood is what exactly he thinks.

about the United States military which. he may soon command based on his own. experience as a member of the Armed. Forces and you have been trying to. figure that out yeah I mean that's the. big question for me if he gets the job. what does he want to do and why and the. reason I ask is he does not have a lot. of traditional Washington experience he. spent almost 20 years in uniform and he.

deployed three times he's been to Iraq. he's been to. Afghanistan but most of his experience. is just leading small groups of troops. on the ground he's never worked in the. Pentagon he doesn't have a lot of time. at Big defense contractors so he doesn't. have some of the traditional experience. that's normally the road to this type of. job and that's important because if he. is confirmed he's going to have to. manage nearly 3 million employees and an. annual budget of almost a trillion. dollars well tell us about those.

deployments and I guess going back even. further how and why hex Seth went into. the military and how taken together all. those views are likely to shape the kind. of defense department he would lead yeah. so he grew up in Minnesota has a very. traditional Church growing conservative. childhood and then he goes to Princeton. University and there too he's kind of an. outspoken conservative in fact he joins. the University conser conservative.

political Journal which is called the. Princeton Tory and writes a lot of. really provocative essays sort of taking. on the issues of the day uh you know. modern feminism homosexuality and he's. really hard right on a lot of this stuff. and he arrives there in 1999 so while. all of this is going on the Attacks of. September 11th happen and so another hot. political topic that comes right up to. the top is how does America respond to. that stuff and he really becomes.

outspoken in support of military. intervention not just in Afghanistan but. also in Iraq and it should be said that. this is not just academic because. halfway through his college career he. joined Roc and as soon as he graduated. from Princeton in 2003 he became an army. officer so he knew he could be going to. war but he had faith that that was the. right thing to do so he's very much.

aligned it would seem with the. Republican leadership of the United. States in that era I was in college. during this period too it's George W. bush and he is making the case for war. and asking as many Americans as are. willing to sign up and do the Patriotic. thing and bring the war that had come to. the United States on September 11th back. to the places where those attacks. allegedly began that's right so he puts.

on a uniform as a national Guardsman and. he gets sent to Guantanamo Bay H and. remind us what's happening at Guantanamo. Bay at this early stage in those two. Wars Afghanistan and Iraq so at this. point in 2004 the prison there is only. about 2 years old it's been very hastily. set up as a place to store terrorist. suspects until the military can figure. out what to do with them and the idea is.

that the military is going to set up a. commission and they are going to charge. and prosecute these folks and very. quickly reach outcomes probably. convictions and it'll be dealt with and. Pete heg Seth is kind of a lowlevel. administrator he's a platoon leader but. also does a lot of paperwork spends a. lot of time at a desk and later he. describes this deployment as a long. boring Duty in fact I think the only. thing that happened that's noteworthy to. him is that he saw a lack of action what.

do you mean well here's this prison. that's been set up to deal with all. these suspects some of whom are very. dangerous and what he sees is not. convictions he sees the process going. from Swift to slow to essentially a. standstill remember there were hundreds. of terrorist suspects there at the time. almost none of them ever went to trial. so here we are almost 20 years later and. nothing's happened and if you're Pete.

hex if you're somebody motivated as he. was to sign up after September 11th to. avenge this horrible act that has killed. more than 3,000 Americans being there on. the ground and knowing that just over. those walls is a process that's grinding. and not really going anywhere is. probably very frustrating yeah here's a. died in the W believer who volunteered. and put on the uniform to help and. nothing's happening it's very.

frustrating and I think he goes home. kind of disappointed Dave you mentioned. multiple deployments so where does Heth. end up next after Guantanamo yeah so he. comes back from Guantanamo feeling like. he didn't necessarily achieve very much. and he's watching the news and this is. 2005 and so Iraq which was supposed to. be an easy and quick Victory by that. point is really falling apart and he. feels like again here's a chance for him. to step in and help.

and so he volunteers and he joins the. 101st Airborne Division as a infantry. platoon leader and he goes to Iraq and. what's his experience there he arrives. on the ground in what is essentially a. mess that's getting worse every day what. had been a relatively Swift invasion is. now curdled into sectarian fighting into. roadside bombs everywhere into mounting. American casualties and the infantry.

troops that are on the ground like him. they're supposed to fix it and he. realizes how difficult that's going to. be because he's getting some very. conflicting instructions what's an. example of that so lawyers in the Army. who are giving a briefing to him and all. the soldiers that he's arriving with. tell him essentially hey look the rules. are very strict you cannot fire on an. Iraqi even if you see them with a rocket. launcher unless that rocket launcher is.

actually pointed at you on the other. side is some of the leadership in his. Brigade combat commanders who are saying. you should expect to fire on pretty much. any military aged male and you don't. even need to give warning shots wow so. he's got some people saying don't fire. until it's too late some people say fire. way too soon and you know he's a young. infantry guy who's leading 40 soldiers. who's trying to figure this out and. Whose advice does he ultimately take. what is his conduct this is really.

interesting he took a very moderate and. measured approach he's like okay we're. just going to be really careful we don't. want to shoot anyone we don't need to. because that's just going to make us so. many more enemies in a war that we're. trying to end and so not only did he. tell his soldiers hey we're not going to. shoot unless we're sure but he. volunteered to be the first one through. the door on raids they would go on. because he didn't want to put that. really difficult decision in the hands. of some 2 22-year-old soldier who might.

make a rash decision and people who. served with him that I interviewed say. he was Flawless careful cared about what. he did and his soldiers loved him for it. mhm but something happens right after he. leaves his infantry company there's a. big operation it's called iron triangle. and his infantry company not his platoon. specifically but other platoon that are. in this same little. military group are going after an.

Insurgent Target and they end up. shooting some civilians and executing. some captives and they were charged with. crimes because in the military if you go. beyond the Rules of Engagement and kill. someone who shouldn't be killed and. you're definitely not allowed to kill. captives that's murder MH at the time. Pete Heth was really cleare eyed about. how he felt about this you know this. will become important later in his. career but he was very outspoken saying.

this is wrong it's not the right way to. do things and he called it atrocities mm. and made clear that those are lines that. you can't cross not just because they're. lines but because they're deeply. counterproductive yeah he becomes a big. believer during his time in Iraq in what. the military calls counterinsurgency you. know which is a fancy word for rather. than shooting the Iraqis Let's help them. rebuild their society it's stuff like. sewer system systems electrical setting.

up a city council so that cities can. actually run and he worked you know. daily on those projects and and had a. lot of success and by the time he came. home from Iraq in 2006 he was a huge. believer in counterinsurgency he's going. on TV he's speaking in panels he's. making a public case that hey we need to. double down on this. strategy the strategy we're pursuing now. a counterinsurgency strategy implemented. by General David Petraeus is finally the.

right strategy to be using in that. country we are fin at the time like. America was kind of souring on Iraq. people were talking about pulling out. and he very clearly said no we stood up. Iraqi armies we we held national. elections and all of those things are. incredible we need more troops there but. we need to do it right not only did I. see his Security forces that were. stronger but I sat in on a city council. meeting where I watched 18 members of. the Samara City Council debate for four.

hours issues like electricity water. sewage rebuilding of of of Civic. buildings let's do counterinsurgency. help these people rebuild and in doing. so we will help ourselves because we. will create a stable nation that will no. longer be a breeding ground for violence. so as a pretty low ranking veteran of. the war in Iraq he somehow finds himself. on TV advocating for specific.

approaches to these wars yeah cuz he. comes with a perspective of a Joe in. uniform who has real ground combat. experience and he's saying look I've. seen these efforts work let's double. down on. this and he's such a Believer he. volunteers for a third time in 2011 this. time to. Afghanistan and when he gets there he's. doing what he's advocating for his job.

is to be a teacher at a. counterinsurgency school where he will. teach these methods to the officers of. the Afghan Army but unfortunately his. timing there is a lot like his timing in. Guantanamo he's getting there right when. the situation is twisting towards. dysfunction by 2012 the United States. military has decided it's going to pull. out of Afghanistan slowly but surely and.

one of the first turnovers that happens. is that Pete higth turns over his. counterinsurgency school to the Afghan. government and this effort that he's. worked very hard on within a year or two. it falls apart right which of course. becomes a metaphor for the entire. conflict in Afghanistan Because by the. end the Taliban will return take over. American bases take over American mes. halls and T tanks and equipment and turn.

the entire us War there into an exercise. in futility right and so that's Pete heg. has final deployment so in three. deployments he's seen three different. flavors of Pentagon dysfunction and so. pretty much his entire adult life has. been spent on this effort that has come. to nothing and in fact the only thing. that he really has seen the military. very expeditiously and success F do is.

you remember those folks that I said. were in his infantry company that got. charged with war crimes I do they were. very quickly tried and convicted and so. he saw successful prosecutions against. his own guys guys that had been put in. very very difficult positions but he had. never seen any successful prosecutions. against the people who were detained at. Guantanamo H his front seat at all of.

this dysfunction really left him. embittered you know he started out as a. patriot who wanted to join the effort. and he left feeling like the people. leading the military did not know what. they were doing right and the only. people who he saw being held accountable. through any kind of process were were. his own guys being punished by their own. government that's. right in the years afterwards his.

experience really distills into a view. where he's deeply supportive of the. people who went and tried to make things. work in Iraq and Afghanistan and deeply. deeply distrustful of the leadership. that made it all fall apart and that. informs his views as his platform. becomes bigger and. bigger we'll be right.

back so Dave what is this bigger. platform for Pete hexus views of the. military look like in the years after he. leaves the service so he starts working. for Washington DC based vetan groups. that push for all sorts of stuff. continued involvement in Iraq and. Afghanistan better care for vets through. the VA and as part of that advocacy he's. repeatedly appearing on TV and I think.

it becomes pretty clear by about 2014. that he's good at TV mhm the troops have. not been a priority of the left they are. not a priority of the left and they do. you think that the pentagon's becoming. too politically correct well it. certainly is not helpful if we've got a. military trying more to be politically. correct than the biggest baddest. military in the world you can spend. better ideas in and of themselves don't. inevitably carry the day ultimately big. guns and courageous people who carry.

them are the ones who carry the day and. right now it's at this point let's ask. our Fox News contributor Pete hexa hey. Pete good morning good morning thanks. for having me he gets his first official. position with Fox News as a part-time. contributor and he starts getting more. and more time he becomes a presenter he. eventually becomes a weekend host and. his time at Fox is a real mix of what he. was doing at Princeton years before so. of like provocative culture War type of.

conservative stuff and speaking out for. veterans you think women should not be. in combat roles correct because I think. inevitably the standards will eventually. be eroded by bureaucrats or by political. he talks about getting women out of. combat roles in the military he. complains about how wokeism has taken. over the general Corp and you know a lot. of the leaders are Dei hires in that. case you're not improving War fighting. capability necessarily you feel better. about yourself yeah.

and this is a story we've covered. extensively on this program many of our. nation's Warriors are finding themselves. in trouble for doing the job they were. hired to do fight a war and kill the. enemy he does something he's never. really done before which is speaking out. on behalf of soldiers and other service. members who have been charged with war. crimes as a Warf fighter you assume that. your military will have your back. instead they come after you absolutely. always framed in like hey was a good. person trying to do their job and in the.

fog of War forced to make a split second. decision they did the wrong thing and. now the military is trying to hang them. for it and that's not fair what is the. biggest charge you may face and what is. the lightest charge you would face uh. there's only one charge and that's. premeditated murder it started out with. an army green beret named Matt Goldstein. who' been accused of executing a. suspected Taliban bomb maker and it grew. to include Clint lawence brand new.

platoon leader orders his platoon to. fire on the men in the motorcycle. they're killed he's charged with murder. because there's no weapons found on. those individuals uh young Lieutenant. named Clint. laurance who had been convicted of. shooting civilians in Afghanistan well. let's right now bring in for his first. exclusive interview Navy SEAL operations. Chief Eddie Gallagher his wife and and. probably the best known is Navy SEAL. Edward Gallagher who'd been turned in by. his own platoon. for allegedly shooting at women and.

children in Iraq and executing a captive. right and Dave this is a story that you. have told several times on our show as. The Saga of Eddie Gallagher has played. out yeah this was the first time that. Pete Heth came across my radar because. he was inviting these people on people. whose cases I had written about and. honestly I looked at it pretty. dumbfounded because I can absolutely.

understand the idea of hey I'm going to. stand by the ground troops and give them. the benefit of the doubt but what really. complicates that is that in a number of. these. cases these folks had been turned in by. their own platoons the people who. understood the fog of War and the. situation on the ground more than anyone. else had looked at what had happened and. been like man that's messed up and had. turned them in right in other words they. had crossed lines in the eyes of those.

who were on the ground with them and. Pete Heth doesn't seem interested in. those nuances in his mind it's kind of. like America right or wrong and I refuse. to accept that they did anything wrong. right and what's really interesting. about that is he knows all about these. nuances because he's been a lieutenant. leading ground troops in Iraq and he has. seen his own guys be prosecuted for this. stuff and at the time before he was on. Fox he said very clearly hey this is.

wrong it hurts us more than it helps us. but fast forward to when he's on Fox and. that's no longer the case well how do. you account for that change because in. your reporting you seem to find very. clear evidence that heg Seth when the. idea of these war crimes first emerges. is very unsympathetic to those who have. allegedly committed them now all of a. sudden he's not interested in the. nuances and he basically just wants to. make sure these guys get off scottf free. yeah I think that three deployments just. made him lose so much faith and so much.

trust in the Pentagon that he no longer. believed that the leadership could make. good decisions or Fair decisions towards. the people on the. ground CNN has learned that a Fox News. host encouraged president Trump to. consider pardons for some military. members accused of war crimes so heg. Seth and president Trump basically. become a Twan military Court they're not. war criminals they're War. who who have now been accused of certain.

things that are under review where he. puts the cases up and Trump makes the. decisions new tonight president Trump. pardons Two Soldiers with connections to. Fort Bragg major Matthew Goldstein who. you see there on the left accused of. killing a suspected bomb maker who was. not a legal threat now Lawrence was. released Friday from the US military. prison fort lenworth in Kansas tonight. president Trump intervening again to. defend in battled Navy SEAL Chief Eddie. Gallagher saying he will not let the. Navy strip Gallagher of his status as a.

seal I stuck up for three great Warriors. against the Deep. [Music]. state so what clearly starts to take. form here is a partnership a direct. pipeline between Heth and Trump and I. suppose you have to add on top of that. the fact that heth's view of post 911 us.

interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. his disillusionment with them is very. much shared by Trump who is so openly. disdainful of how the US military. leadership and even civilian elected. leadership entered those Wars and. conducted those Wars so it does not seem. at all like a surprise that Heth would. be his choice to be a senior figure in. the military the Secretary of Defense.

well and remember during Trump's first. term he clashed repeatedly with various. generals who were in his administration. including secretary James Mattis who. right now hates president Trump called. him unfit to be president and so. president Trump and Pete Heth both share. this disdain for you know the military. establishment and so when Trump looks. around for someone who shares his View. and can act who has some military.

experience but is also deeply. mistrustful of the military you know. Pete Heth is his Natural Choice but what. has become clear in the days since Trump. picked Heth to be his secretary of. defense is that neither Trump nor those. around him seemed to know about some of. the alleged problematic personal conduct. that Heth engaged in since becoming a. Fox News. that's right there's some episodes that.

really call into question his judgment. he actually had a baby with a producer. in 2017 a Fox News producer while he was. married that same year he was accused of. sexual assault by a woman who he had sex. with at a conservative political. convention in California police. investigated they didn't file charges he. says it was consensual but a few years. later he paid her an undisclosed amount.

of money as part of a settlement over. this in addition during President. Biden's inauguration Pete Heth was. removed from what would have essentially. been a security detail there because. another person in his National Guard. unit who had seen some of his tattoos. wrote a letter to the command saying hey. these tattoos are related to white. supremacy and Christian nationalism and. and this guy Pete Heth may be an Insider.

threat huh and so he was removed from. that detail now a couple years later. actually this year Pete heg Seth left. the National Guard but he has said. publicly like I was forced out over that. essentially like they pulled me out of. that he feels he was targeted and it was. unfair but all this to say that there. are a number of things that really are. raising eyebrows about this guy who. could be in charge of the entire. military right in for all those reasons. we don't know if Pete hex is going to.

make it through the Senate confirmation. process that lies before him in the next. couple of weeks like Matt Gates he could. end up having to drop out because of. accusations of sexual. misconduct but so far Senate Republicans. who have met with hegf on Capitol Hill. seem to be optimistic that he could make. it through and for the sake of argument. let's act as if Pete hex does become. Secretary of Defense How. transformational would that be for the.

US military to have someone who clearly. sees himself as such a champion of the. soldier and such a challenger to the. military establishment what do we think. you know I think it really depends on. Fox he's this culture War Bomb thrower. who talks about getting rid of all women. in combat positions which you know there. are thousands of people that might. affect so it's unclear how things like. that could actually happen with being. completely disruptive you know on the.

other hand when he was in. uniform everybody I talked to said he. was just a hardworking nonpartisan. Common Sense guy so are you going to get. a mix of the partisan bomb thrower and. the common sense officer are you going. to get one or the other I think that's. up in the. air what's clear is that in the rank and. file there is some recognition that for. the past 25 years the status quo hasn't.

really been working and they're hungry. for change right and that would seem to. be what Donald Trump is banking on here. that for too long even in his own first. administration his recipe of self-d. disruption stopped at the military he. never thought to put someone like this. in that Ru and this time he's rolling. the dice that not only it will work but. that has to work that this is a place. that does need that kind of disruption.

no more generals no more Admirals he's. putting in someone who's you know Top. Line on their resume for the job is that. I don't trust the people that have been. running this and so he's all but. promising. [Music]. disruption well Dave thank you very much. appreciate it thank you.

[Music]. we'll be right. back here's what else you need to know. today on Monday as expected special. counsel Jack Smith dropped his. indictments charging Donald Trump with. plotting to overturn the 2020 election. and illegally retaining classif Divi. documents Smith in court filings.

explained that long-standing justice. department policy makes it impossible to. pursue prosecutions against a sitting. president but Smith wrote the decision. to drop the cases quote does not turn on. the gravity of the crimes charged the. strength of the government's proof or. the merits of the prosecution which the. government he wrote stands ful. behind in a post on social media.

reacting to the news Trump called both. indictments quote empty and. [Music]. Lawless today's episode was produced by. Diana win Carlos PRI Mary Wilson and AA. chv it was edited by Lisa chow and. Michael benoa fact checked by Susan Le. contains original music by Dan Powell. and Mary and Lozano and was engineered.

by Alysa Moxley our theme music is by. Jim runberg and Ben lurk of. [Music]. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael buaro see you tomorrow. [Music].