The Messy Fight Over the SAT

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. Tavern and this is the. [Music]. daily many American colleges have. stopped requiring standardized tests. like the SATs on the theory that they. hurt diversity but new research suggests. that colleges may have made a. mistake today my colleague David. leanhart on the war on the SATs and why.

colleges are still reluctant to bring. them. back it's Wednesday January. [Music]. 17th so David ever since the Supreme. Court struck down affirmative action in. college admissions it's opened up this. larger conversation around the college.

admissions process you know what's fair. and what tools do we have to create. diverse student bodies now and recently. you've been reporting on the SATs in. this context tell us why you decided to. focus on the SATs in particular there's. been a radical change with standardized. tests in this country both the SATs and. the acts which many students also take. when applying to college and for years. people have not liked the SAT I mean I'm. sure you remember taking it it's not fun.

to take who likes the SAT yeah I mean I. can still remember the dark gym I went. and sat in anxiously 35 years ago um and. on top of the inherent unpleasantness of. standardized tests I think a lot of. people particularly on the political. left have worried that standardized. tests are an enemy of diversity and so. there's been this criticism bubbling up. and then comes covid and during the. pandemic it was basically impossible for. teenagers to go out and take these.

standardized tests and so one college. after another announced you no longer. have to take the SAT or act to apply. here they went test optional as they. called it and is this most colleges yes. nearly all colleges and when the. colleges announced it they said this is. a temporary move but almost all colleges. have remained test optional so that's a. really big change in college admissions. right and I got interested in that.

change to understand what has it meant. that colleges have moved away from these. standardized tests that they required. for decades it also turns out that. there's been some new research looking. at what is the use of the SAT what does. it tell you about applicants and in part. because of that new research and in part. because of the experiences that colleges. have had with an admission system that. doesn't include standardized tests there. are now a bunch of people in higher. education who are saying we made a. mistake and we should bring back our.

test requirements okay so let's talk. about the case to bring it back now you. were actually on the show last summer. and you talked about some of this new. research remind us briefly of those. findings David and and tell us where the. SATs come into them so this in-depth. study looking at College admissions that. was released last summer ended up. finding that the richest applicants have. huge advantages in college admissions. and a lot of people have assumed that.

the SAT must be one of the advantages. that richer applicants have because. think about it if you're rich you can. take test prep classes right you can. take the SAT multiple times you also. might go to a private school or a top. public school that's going to prepare. you better for the test there are all. kinds of ways in which you might have an. advantage on the SAT because of wealth. but it turns out that many of the other. aspects of the admissions process are. more tilted toward the rich than.

standardized tests think about. extracurricular activities who can pay. to take music lessons who can pay to. travel to foreign countries and. participate in projects that expand. their Horizons right cures for Cancer. and a summer project exactly who can pay. to participate on travel sports teams. and it's not just extracurriculars think. about all of the editing that Highly. Educated affluent parents do of their. children's College.

think about the quality of a school. recommendation that you're going to get. if you go to a private school as opposed. to a public school where the guidance. counselor has 500 students whom they're. advising right and so actually. standardized tests a single test that. everybody must take the same test end up. being less tilted toward the wealthy. than many other aspects of the process. like extracurriculars and essay writing. and school recommendations so let's. pause and unpack that a little bit David.

because I think it'll be surprising for. listeners I mean SATs you think test. prep you think Advantage parents pouring. money pouring time pouring effort into. this test prep doesn't that confer. advantage on the wealthy well first I. should make clear there are gaps along. racial and economic lines in average SAT. scores upper income students do better. on average than lower inome students. white and Asian students do better on. average than black and Latino students.

and this is probably the main point that. the critics of the test make they say. look at these gaps the test must be. biased but let's start with test prep. the evidence suggests that test prep. actually causes only a tiny part of. these gaps maybe not that different from. zero and the way to see that is to look. at other tests that millions of students. across the country take but don't take. test prep for and maybe the best known.

one is called the nape its nickname is. the nation's report card it's a test. Nationwide that Elementary School. students and middle school students take. there's a good chance that you or your. students have taken the nape in your. state but that they called it something. other than the nape locally okay and so. no one takes nape test prep because for. an individual student the nape doesn't. really matter it's instead used to see. which school districts are doing well. which states are doing well it's a tool. for States and local school District to. see how they're doing that's exactly.

right when you see headlines once a year. come out about how much fourth graders. or eighth graders have learned in the. United States that comes from the nape. and what's really striking is that the. economic gaps that is between how richer. and poorer students do and the racial. gaps are incredibly similar on the nape. as they are to the SAT and so that is. another way of saying test prep just. isn't that big a deal okay so there are.

these gaps in both the SATs and the. napes these other important National. tests and there gaps as you said along. economic and racial lines so if it isn't. test prep that's actually driving the. gaps then I guess the question is what. is and I'm thinking it has something to. do with inequality in America yes the. tests are picking up real inequities in. American Life think about it we live in. a society with enormous economic and. racial inequality. you see this in nearly every measure of.

American Life home ownership life. expectancy poverty the black poverty. rate for example is substantially higher. than the white and Asian poverty rate. now does that mean that the poverty rate. statistic is biased of course not it. means we live in an unequal Society the. problem is the underlying reality it's. not the statistic and I think in the. debate over standardized tests a lot of. people have conflated those two things. said there are these racial and economic.

gaps therefore the tests must be biased. as opposed to there are these racial and. economic gaps because there are racial. and economic gaps in almost everything. in American Life In other words the SATs. are actually mirroring back American. reality you know showing this deep. problem that we have like effectively. they're the messenger right and and. you're saying don't shoot it that's. right but if there are these gaps why. should use the SATs in college.

admissions first of all almost nobody is. suggesting that the SATs should be the. only factor or even the dominant factor. in college admissions what the advocates. for it are saying is that it should be. one factor and the key thing here is. that the SAT and the ACT turn out to be. a very good predictor of how students. are going to do in college academically. especially at the most selective. colleges the data shows that students.

who do better on the SAT are going to. have higher gpas in college on average. the SAT and the ACT also predict what. kind of graduate schools these students. are going to go to which is a sign that. they did better overall in college in. fact SS turn out to be a significantly. better predictor than high school grades. do and why is the test better at. predicting success than high school. grades first of all high schools are. incredibly different an a at one high. school isn't the same thing as an a at.

another high school and second of all. something important has changed here. which is gr inflation high school. students just get much higher grades. than they used to and so these college. admissions officers are left looking at. transcripts where nearly all the. students are getting nearly all A's they. can't make decisions based only on that. standardized tests are more rigorous. because there's more of a distribution. and because everyone's taking the same. test got it and one of the key Arguments.

for using the tests is that there are. kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who. do really well on the SAT and ACT there. are lower income kids who do well there. are Black and Hispanic kids who do well. and one of the arguments of the test. Advocates is that those are specifically. the kids who are being hurt in a system. where they don't take the test they are. not being given a chance to show their. potential in a that high school grades.

just can't capture as well there are too. many students getting A's for any one of. these colleges to admit so if they just. are going to use grades they're going to. have to do a whole lot of guesswork. they're going to have to say we think. this kid with Straight A's is more. promising than this other kid with. Straight A's whereas when they combine. the two they say oh look we're looking. at these five kids all of them from. disadvantaged backgrounds all all of. them have close to straight A but look.

at these two or this one who really. stand out on the standardized test know. they didn't do quite as well as a kid. who went to a private school or a public. magnet school but they did well and that. is a sign of enormous potential and if. you don't have the SAT and admissions. officers have told me this directly if. you don't have the SAT you really have. to guess which one of those kids is. likely to do the best at these colleges.

interesting and it is a particular. problem for kids from disadvantaged. backgrounds because these admissions. officers have a much better sense of. exactly what the classes and the grades. and the transcripts mean at these magnet. schools and these private schools that. every year have multiple applicants to. these schools it's the high schools that. don't have that many applicants to the. school when they're looking at these. kids who have straight A's and they're. choosing among kids all of whom have. approaching straight A at different high. schools that the standardized tests can.

be particularly helpful in saying that. is the kid who is likely to thrive on. our campus So in theory this sounds like. a useful strategy right but are colleges. actually using the SATs in this way well. MIT is a really interesting example here. and MIT is the Massachusetts Institute. of Technology it's one of the most. selective colleges in America it is also. one of the only colleges. that reinstated its requirement that.

applicants take the SAT or the ACT it's. a very short list and part of the reason. that they did was when they went and. they studied the last 15 years they. found that the students whom they had. admitted despite having lower test. scores just didn't do as well there and. not only that but they found that they. could admit a highly diverse class while. using the SAT as one of the fact factors. so the current firste class at MIT which.

was admitted using an SAT or act. requirement is about 30% black or Latino. it is well more than 50% students of. color it's about 20% students who. receive pel grants which is the largest. federal financial aid program which. means that MIT is more economically. diverse than a lot of other Elite. classes and what the dean of admissions. steuart schmill told me is he said look. using A's alone were not enough for us.

to admit a class there are just too many. kids who get A's and we couldn't be sure. that it was telling us that they could. actually do MIT work but when we. combined grades with standardized tests. with other parts of the application when. we gave kids credit for overcoming. adversity often economic adversity but. we also looked for kids who' done really. well on the SAT we were able to admit a. class that was both diverse. and extremely well prepared academically.

so David essentially what you're saying. here is that the humble and hated sat is. imperfect but is the only one real yard. stick we have in an imperfect system and. doesn't need to harm diversity if you. use it in conjunction with other things. but you know my mind is going back to. the beginning of our conversation you. said that the test is still not being. used by a lot of colleges out there have. they seen this data are they going to. act accordingly they have seen this data.

for the most. part and that raises a fascinating. question Sabrina which is given the data. why haven't they gone back to using the. [Music]. SAT we'll be right. back.

okay so given the evidence you've laid. out for me David why aren't schools. eager to bring back the SATs I think. it's important to say that actually most. Americans are in favor of using. standardized tests there's been some. polling on this 85% of Americans say. that standardized tests should be a. factor in college admissions a large. majority of every racial group says they. should be a factor in college admissions. but colleges are of course not a. cross-section of America in our. polarized Society colleges are one of.

the places that are most strongly. connected to the political left in this. country so on the left standardized. tests have been for some time unpopular. and have become increasingly so in part. because covid gave colleges an. opportunity to rethink this but in part. because they think that it is an enemy. of diversity right that is correct that. one of the most passionate beliefs of. the political left is the importance of. diversity and particularly racial.

diversity and many people on college. campuses have a genuine fear and a. reasonable fear that standardized tests. could be used to reduce the diversity of. their campuses now these fears that the. tests could reduce diversity on campus. have a connection to the history of. these tests although it's a somewhat. nuanced history so College standardized. tests were invented in the early 20th. century as part of the Progressive.

Movement in this country and that was a. complicated movement it also had major. strains of racism eugenics in that. movement and today we tend to think of. racism in terms of skin color and. particularly terms of white black at the. time none of these selective colleges. were entertaining the idea of admitting. meaningful numbers of black Americans. the race debate at the time was actually. quite different and it is true that some. of the people who were designing the. test expected that the test would show. that Anglo-Saxons would do better than.

Jews and Southern Europeans this was an. era of debate about American Immigration. policy that was the flavor of the day of. Elites who were racist that people from. southern Europe Italians Jews Greeks. would not be able to do as well that's. correct now some of the other early. Advocates and inventors of the test had. a different view these were. administrators at Harvard who were. worried that the American Elite was. drawing from two narrow a pool of people.

white Anglo-Saxon Protestants and that. if America was truly going to be a world. leader it needed a stronger Elite and it. actually needed to use these. standardized tests to find students who. weren't naturally going to be at a place. like Harvard but in fact deserve to be. in fact were extremely talented and they. thought that the standardized tests. could actually diversify the students at. these Elite schools so truly a very. mixed history with this test in terms of.

the intentions very mixed you had people. who both saw them as a way to restrict. opportunity and you had people pushing. for them who saw them as a way to expand. opportunity but today critics of the. tests tend to emphasize only one half of. that history and part of the reason that. they do is they see a real connection to. today they say look the people who. created these tests were racist and. there are real gaps today by economic. class and by race and they connect these.

two and they say this is just not. something that we should be using but I. wonder based on what you told me with. the MIT example and how the SAT can be. used to create diverse student bodies. are colleges looking at that and. starting to say maybe we shouldn't be so. concerned maybe we should reconsider. bringing the SATs back yes some of them. are right now but they're also anxious. and part of the reason they're anxious. is the Supreme Court decision last year.

that forbids colleges from using race in. college admissions so in the wake of. that decision it's very clear that. people on the political right some of. the same people who brought that lawsuit. that led to the Supreme Court decision. are going to be scouring the college. admissions process and looking for signs. that colleges have deviated from what. the Supreme Court has said that they can. do a system that uses ATS has the. potential to give Grist to those.

conservative critics they can say hey. wait a minute why did you admit this kid. of One race who has a400 when you. rejected this kid of another race with a. 1500 whereas a system without. standardized tests is just fuzzier it's. more subjective and it potentially. creates less legal Jeopardy for colleges. and in fact if I remember correctly it. was also precisely the argument the.

plaintiffs in the Harvard case were. bringing before The Supreme Court right. hey I got a high score and they didn't. let me in because of my ethnicity it was. one part of their argument but it was an. important part and how big of a legal. risk is this for these colleges I think. we don't yet know remember the idea of. using the SAT and college admissions is. not just a hypothetical MIT is doing it. Georgetown is doing it some of the top. public universities in the country are. doing it they all say they are doing it. they are creating diverse classes and.

they are doing it while following the. law and if when the evidence continues. to emerge and it becomes clear oh it is. possible to use the SAT and still have. diverse classes my instinct is the legal. risk may not be as big as College's fear. but I just don't think we know yet so on. the one hand schools have all of these. reasons for not wanting to require the. SATs but on the other you have this data. showing that SATs can be pretty useful. for college admissions which makes me.

wonder is there a cost to schools not. using the SATs well it depends who you. ask so critics of the test would say. there really isn't that much of a cost. that in these schools we're talking. about phenomenally qualified applicants. even those who would do somewhat worse. on the standardized test these students. are not going to drop out for the most. part of these schools they're still. going to graduate and they're going to. have successful lives and what the. critics of the test say is once you. start using the test it's really hard. not to overuse the test because it's a.

number and instead of obsessing over. modest differences between how people do. on this test and modest differences in. how they might do at College we should. instead see schools as engines of social. mobility and we should ensure they're. admitting a diverse class of qualified. students and not worry too much about. whether they're admitting the very most. qualified students just work harder to. find the best students and not obsess. over that number yeah and work harder to. educate them once they're there and what.

the advocates for the test would say is. look these are the world's finest. universities part of their mission is to. develop new cures for diseases that are. killing people and develop new forms of. energy that help reduce the damage from. climate change they have a mission of. excellence and part of that mission is. to go find the students who are going to. be able to do that work best to do the. research to become the researchers of.

tomorrow and educate them and set them. up to. succeed and so this actually gets at. something really fascinating which is I. think one of the criticisms of higher. education from the political Center and. the political right have been that. higher education doesn't care that much. about Excellence anymore and the. standardized tests have become part of. this criticism the critics of highered. have said look there is this test that. can tell you who will do better in.

school and yet you are ignoring it and. that has become wrapped up in this whole. larger political debate that we're. having right now about higher education. so there's an incredibly basic question. at the heart of all of this which is. what is higher education actually for. like what's the end goal of it is it to. make classrooms more diverse and to. alleviate INE equality in America or is.

it to create merit-based places where. talented students can individually reach. their full. potential yes and almost everyone in. higher education would say the answer is. both and I'll tell you my reading of the. evidence is that both is reasonable I do. think that colleges can be both diverse. and. excellent but there's no question that. there are some tensions here and in. particular there's no question that a.

system with standardized tests runs the. risk of reducing diversity and a system. without standardized tests runs the risk. of reducing. Excellence so those two things are. intention and we're living in a pretty. important moment in higher education. right now so what's the answer what's. going to happen we're going to find out. soon schools are looking right now at. their admissions policies they're. looking at this new evidence on the SAT. and ACT they're trying to figure out.

whether to reinstate their test. requirements or to remain test optional. they're trying to respond to the Supreme. Court decision on Admissions and it's. clearly a really tumultuous time in. higher education it's also a really. fascinating time because schools are. trying to decide what do we want to. be David thank you thanks so much. Sabrina. [Music].

we'll be right. back here's what else you should know. today the US military struck Targets in. Yemen on Tuesday the third attack on the. houthis S a us-led air and Naval barrage. last week the American strike destroyed. four missiles that posed a threat to. ships in the Red Sea the boies backed by. Iran are firing on ships in protest.

against the war in Gaza and the US and. its allies are scrambling to keep the. critical pathway for global trade. [Music]. open today's episode was produced by. Stella tan and Shannon Lynn it was. edited by Lisa chow and Devin Taylor. fact checked by Susan Lee contains. original music by Marian Lozano and was. engineered by Chris Wood our theme music. is by Jim brunberg and Ben lansberg of.

[Music]. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Sabrina Tavern see you. [Music]. tomorrow.