The Make-or-Break Testimony of Michael Cohen

first. floor I'm uh just leaving my apartment. again um 6:14. a.m. Monday May. 13th recording one of my little voice. memos. again I do feel like a goofball doing. it. but but they keep publishing though.

today is well it's the climax of the. prosecution's case. [Music]. today we're expecting to see Michael. Cohen he's Trump's former fixer Cen. worked for years for Trump fixing his. problems cleaning up his. messes. so funny. that Cohen has become that. mess he's going to.

face his old boss in court today and. make a giant problem for him if. prosecutors had their. [Music]. way from The New York Times I'm Michael. Babar this is the. daily today what happened when Donald. Trump's most loyal Lieutenant took the. stand against him in the most important. testimony of the hush money.

trial as always Jonah Bromwich was in. the. room it's Thursday May. [Music]. 16th hey friend how are you I'm all. right that's. good you rested oh yeah you know how. rested I. am not at all woke up at 420 this. morning.

cuz yeah I'm having trouble um sleeping. much later than that I I mean I wake up. at 4:45 every morning on child. days I know it's insane it's really. crazy okay are you ready yes Jonah the. last time we dropped in on this case. with you was when Stormy Daniels was on. the stand last week today we're talking. to you because it's Michael Cohen now on. the stand and you had always explained. to us from the beginning of this trial. Cohen was the prosecution's biggest. weapon and potentially its biggest.

liability he's the Lynch pen of their. case you told us because as Trump's. former right-hand man he made the hush. money payment at the center of this. trial without which there would be no. case but Cohen is also a proven liar. with an ax to grind against Trump so. he's just an incredibly complicated. figure that's exactly right so Cohen is. the line that connects all the dots of. this trial he knows most of the. witnesses and not only did he make the. hush money payment to Stormy Daniels. that's at issue here he is also the.

person who was reimbursed for that. payment by Trump and the only person who. can link Trump to what prosecutors say. was the criminal disguise of those. records used to pay him Trump is charged. with 34 felonies every single one of. those felonies is attached to a document. that was involved in the repayment of. Michael Cohen for the hush money to. Stormy Daniels right I mean campy. overstated how much the criminality. alleged in this trial entirely revolves. around.

Michael Cohen's role in it yes okay so. he takes the stand walk us through that. when a witness takes the stand in this. trial and many other trials they begin. talking about their educational history. and their professional background It's. usually the most boring part of their. testimony frankly you need to know where. these people came from and the jury. needs to know more importantly but. sometimes we zone out a little bit. during that part because we want to. quote unquote get to the good stuff with.

Cohen the quote unquote good stuff. meaning the relevant part of his. testimony begins almost immediately what. do you mean Michael Cohen begins to. explain from the stand how he came into. Trump's orbit and it starts from afar. this is a guy who idolized Donald Trump. who saw him as the symbol of wealth and. power and kind of this place where. aggression and money-making meat in the. kind of go- go 8s and so Cohen likes. that he's attracted to that he wanted to.

be a Wall Street guy himself and so he. even fashion himself to some extent in. the Trump mold he begins buying property. in Trump's buildings soon he catches. Trump's eye and before you know it. Michael Cohen is being asked by Trump he. testifies if he wants to leave his. sleepy old law firm and come work for. Trump at the Trump organization he's. going to report directly to him and soon. enough Michael Cohen is going to be. calling Donald Trump either the boss or.

just boss right and where things would. be anything but sleepy that's right so. Cohen moves into Trump's world and. immediately he's doing this nasty shady. is work for Donald J Trump this involves. negotiating down Trump's bills he uses. Cohen to say Mr Trump isn't going to owe. you that much he's actually going to owe. you this much right and it also involves. yelling at reporters Trump cares a lot. about what's said about him in the media. and so he asks Cohen to call reporters.

who have written stories that Trump. doesn't like and yell at them and tell. them that they're going to be sued if. they don't change or take down what. they've written right and here I have to. confess I am one of the journalists who. endured these screaming sessions with. Michael Cohen when I was writing about. Trump's University and its alleged. scandals when I was writing about. Trump's real estate problems I ended up. on the phone with Michael Cohen and man. he was relentless he was bullying and. you kind of left the phone call.

traumatized yeah there's an elite group. of you I've heard from many of you and. you all describe something of a similar. experience well Jonah what is the. prosecution doing here by having Michael. Cohen so openly. Embrace this role as basically Trump's. number one jerk this General role that. Michael Cohen is describing will become. the specific role he played in what. prosecutors say is the crime here m mhm.

so they're laying a couple of things. down one is that Cohen reported directly. to Trump no one else and that it was. extremely important to Michael Cohen to. make sure that Trump knew every little. thing he did on Trump's behalf not only. because Trump actually asked to be kept. in the loop in that way which he did. Cohen says but also because Michael. Cohen himself wanted credit from Trump I. mean it's hard to exaggerate the way. that Cohen saw Trump in these days he.

idolized him he wanted his praise His. adoration as he was on the stand. describing those days almost as His. Glory Days he was quoting Trump saying. Trump would say this was fantastic this. was great nice job Michael H and that is. important why exactly because Cohen is. going to testify about interactions only. he had with Trump and those interactions. are going to be prosecutors say the. beginning of a criminal conspiracy that. led to Criminal false documents and so.

if jurors can understand why Cohen was. motivated to check in with Trump not. just Trump with Cohen but Cohen with. Trump and it's this innocent almost. embarrassing reason that he wanted this. praise it may be that they're more. liable to find coin credible got it. they're establishing a track record a. dynamic and a motivation in which Cohen. doesn't do anything without telling. Trump because Cohen is so desperate for. his idle to love him back and praise him.

for every little thing he does exactly I. started to think of this as a modus. operandi argument or Mo argument yes. we'll get to the specifics but we're. talking about how Cohen works with Trump. that's his Mo and the reason that. prosecutors need that is to show this is. what they did all the time this was. their habit and so when it came to. forming a conspiracy to suppress. negative news about Trump during the. 2016 election that wasn't so far off. what Cohen had always done for Donald.

Trump okay so with all that in mind. Jonah take us to the testimony from. Cohen that prosecutors hope will in the. eyes of the jury prove that Trump. committed a crime here prosecutors say. that the impetus for the Stormy Daniels. payoff was the release of the Access. Hollywood tape right this tape in which. Trump is recorded saying that he can do. pretty much anything he wants to women. Washington Post breaks the story it's. considered a turning point in the. campaign because it is so utterly.

damning with women and anybody else who. thinks that this behavior is completely. Unbecoming a precedent right and Cohen. sitting on the stand actually takes us. into that moment and attributes a. reaction to Trump to the Access. Hollywood tape and what's Trump's. reaction Cohen from the stand recalls. Trump's reaction saying this is a. disaster total disaster women are going. to hate me and he says the words. disaster and he says women will hate him. according to Cohen's testimony and that.

prosecutors say that reaction from Trump. and from the campaign is what provides. the impetus for Cohen to go ahead and. make that hush money payment to Stormy. Daniels but first he has to wait for. Trump's approval so he strings Daniels. and her team along as we've already seen. in this trial from daniels's Team now. Cohen is testifying about intentionally. trying to delay even using the Yum kipor. holiday the Jewish holiday as an excuse. for not getting back to Daniel his team.

mhm and Trump Cohen says from the stand. has this conversation with some of his. advisers Trump's advisers and they say. in essence what are you doing man you're. a billionaire this is. $130,000 this right here could be the. election just do it just pay her right. don't take the risk that amid all this. Fallout in the final days of the. campaign from the Access Hollywood Video. that Stormy Daniels is going to go tell. the world that you had an extra marital. fair with her allegedly like that is not.

a tolerable risk right and the way Cohen. tells it this affects Trump and he's. influenced and so what Trump was told. just do it becomes the directive to. Michael Cohen just do it just pay her. we'll pay you back but just pay her and. make this go away so Cohen does it he. does what he's told he makes the payment. to Stormy Daniels and he does it in this. really almost humiliating way he uses. his home he takes out a line of credit. on his house he getss. $130,000 he needs for the Daniels.

payment that way and so he's putting. something really personal on the line. here and this actually relates obviously. to his testimony earlier right his. unbelievable loyalty to Trump they're. almost Fusion together that he would do. something like this do something that. concerns his home and his family and. take $130,000 out of that for Trump to. suppress this story of having had sex. with a porn star so Daniels gets paid. $130,000 and then as everyone knows. Trump wins the election so if this was a.

scheme to suppress that story it seems. to have worked I mean she doesn't tell. the story he wins the election we can't. know the counterfactual we can't know. what would have happened if the story. came out but we do know that it didn't. and we do know that he wins right so. everything worked you would think Trump. would be very happy about this but he. and his Chief Financial Officer at the. time Alan weberg and the other people at. Trump organization have a little bit of. a problem here because they have to deal. with a very grouchy she increasingly.

kind of salty unreimbursed Michael Cohen. who knows this story about Trump who. actually paid to have this story removed. but is getting upset both because he. knows he's not getting a job in the. administration which he says he had. wanted and he got a very small bonus. that year it's the little things to some. extent yes but also Cohen has paid. $130,000 out of his own pocket not being. reimbursed you're going to give this guy. a small bonus this year all years so at.

this point we're in January 2017 so this. all is happening not only while Trump is. president-elect but while he's about to. be inaugurated he's about to be the. president of the United States and then. once he is President once he's in the. White House who should come for a visit. but Michael Cohen and he goes to the. Oval Office and he and Trump have this. similar conversation according to Cohen. on the witness stand where again Trump. affirms that he has knowledge of the. reimbursement plan and in fact even. tells Cohen the president of the United.

States in the Oval Office tells Michael. Cohen you're going to be receiving. checks and prosecutors say that those. checks are some of the first of the. false documents for which Trump is. eventually charged so this is good for. the prosecution right this is their case. this is what they want to happen these. are the all important conversations for. them and now they have them Cohen has. said them the jury has heard them but at. the same time this is exactly the ri. risk too because yes there's a lot to.

back up that Cohen was in the room with. Trump but only Cohen can tell you what. was said right there's no recordings. there's no recordings of these. particular conversations it's just Cohen. it's just his memory right you have to. believe him you have to believe him and. as the defense has said and as even the. prosecution has acknowledged Cohen is a. liar Cohen is a felon Cohen's a bully. Cohen is a bully and he's a guy who. really has an acts to grind against. Trump who once do anything for Trump and.

now almost prosecutors and defense have. acknowledged would do anything against. Trump who is Trump's kind of sworn enemy. here and so the prosecutors know that. while they're still questioning Michael. Cohen they need to deal with his. motivations with his liabilities with. all that mess before the defense can try. to use them to undermine everything that. Michael Cohen has just said.

[Music]. we'll be right back. [Music].

Jonah what's the story that the. prosecution has Michael Cohen tell. proactively about how he becomes Trump's. sworn enemy about their falling out you. had said that Cohen was increasingly. disillusioned with Trump even before. Trump became president because of the. small bonus and not getting a job in the. white house but in Cohen's telling on. the stand when does the true breakdown. actually come yeah so Cohen takes the.

jury blowby blow through this but I. won't do that here we'll go straight to. 2018 the news of the Stormy Daniels. payment breaks Cohen is in big trouble. here because a lot of law enforcement. agencies are like hey this looks a hell. of a lot like a crime soon enough Cohen. is in a hotel room being raided by the. FBI his legal fees are up in the air. this often comes back to money and he. loses his direct connection to Donald. Trump instead Trump hires Rudy Julian Y. and this new guy Robert Castello starts.

coming up to Cohen and offering him. legal advice and offering him this back. channel to the White House Cohen to. Castello to Giuliani to Trump that's. very different from only having one boss. in the whole world and that's a direct. line to Donald Trump that's exactly. right that must have been very painful. for Cohen there's so many motivations. going on here there's that closeness. that we know that he treasured there's. the money issue that keeps coming up and. so long story short as this pressure.

continues to build on Cohen and he. continues to feel as if he does not have. the Loyalty of his former boss that he's. unsupported by his former boss he breaks. and he. flips I am done with the lying I am done. being loyal to president Trump and not. only does he start cooperating with law. enforcement but he starts speaking out. publicly Mr Trump is a con man he asked. me to pay off an adult film star with.

whom he had an affair and to lie about. it to his wife which I did telling the. same story beginning in 2018 and going. on to 2019 and for years now I am sorry. for actively working to hide from you. the truth about Mr Trump when you needed. it most that he is telling in the. courtroom right now I lied for Donald. Trump I bullied for Donald Trump I. committed crimes for Donald Trump and. now I'm not going anymore well how does.

the prosecution confront the obvious. question which is is Michael Cohen so. angry and so betrayed by Trump that. what's really going on here is not. necessarily a vivid recollection of. truth but an effort to just destroy. Trump so trials are an exercise in kind. of competitive storytelling prosecution. Story versus defense story and the. prosecution has a reasonable story about. Michael Cohen and that's what they're. going to use here Cohen is an emotional.

person we've heard that in the context. of his anger but there's all kinds of. different emotions going on there. including just this real vulnerability. and so at the end of their questioning. prosecutors ask him about his emotional. state toward the Trump organization and. Donald Trump himself now and Cohen says. that he doesn't regret having worked for. Trump at the organization he says I had. some interesting great times but he does. say that he regrets having done the. things for Trump that he did lying and.

bullying people on Trump's behalf and. what he says and prosecutors are hoping. to answer your question that this is. kind of Mega compelling that in order to. keep the Loyalty of trump and express. his own loyalty Cohen violated his moral. compass and he suffered the penalty for. doing so and so did his family MH but at. the same time this is all in the eye of. the beholder even when he's telling this. big emotional story and prosecutors are. asking him to do it who knows what these.

jurors are making of Michael Cohen. either they believe him they find this. sympathetic they think oh yes this. sounds exactly like how Trump Works. based on everything else I've seen at. this trial or they're saying once a liar. always is a li how can I believe this. guy I don't care about his emotions. frankly because he's a thug and a bully. as I've heard not only from him himself. but from other people I'm going to. ignore this I don't believe it okay so. let's turn to what happens once the. prosecution ends its questioning of.

Michael Cohen hopes to God in their. minds that the jury does find in. credible and Trump's defense lawyers. start taking a whack at him and. obviously seeking to ensure that the. jury does not find him credible so I. should just start by explaining that I'm. talking to you on Wednesday the cross-. examination has only lasted about a half. day and we still got a full day of cross. to go got it so there's a lot of Michael. Cohen being grilled by Donald Trump's. defense lawyers that hasn't happened yet.

that we have not yet seen okay so we're. only covering a small amount what ends. up happening so Todd blanch is Trump's. lead trial lawyer here and he walks to. the lecturn and Cohen has just given. this emotional testimony about. vulnerability and loyalty and this and. that and Todd blanch asked Michael Cohen. about a Tik Tok he made a video on Tik. Tok a video on Tik Tok and what he says. is after the trial started in this case. you went on Tik Tok and called me a. crying little didn't you huh and.

the jurors sit up in their chairs as you. might imagine and the entire mood in the. courtroom changes Mr emotional over here. Mr Michael Cohen is now being called. what he says he was for Trump a bully a. person who slings insults someone who. maybe his behavior hasn't changed quite. so much as he said it had this was a. really interesting decision by blanch. this is a remarkable moment and blanch. does it one more time he brings up.

another insult actually slung at blanch. and his co-counsel Susan necklace and. then something happens to interrupt them. which is that the judge calls them to. the bench now we didn't know in the. moment what the judge had said but we. get transcripts afterwards so we can. hear things that the jury doesn't hear. and what we saw in the transcript is. that the judge in this moment after. blanch asked these two explosive. questions turns to Todd blanch in. private and says why are you making this. about. yourself a question that has asked of me. constantly but the answer is what well.

blanch doesn't really have that much of. an answer and this is a bit of a. momentum killer I think blanch goes back. to the lecturn but now he's trying to. balance between angry judge Angry client. Michael Cohen jur there's a lot of. elements to keep in your mind his stride. has been broken it has and he seems a. little less sure of himself the. questions are a little less sure-handed. and he seems to lose momentum right at. the top of CR. and then suddenly it gets very confusing.

what he's trying to do he's throwing a. lot at the wall he seems to be arguing. that Cohen is a liar Cohen is a bully. Cohen is trying to make money off Trump. and these are all Salient points and. they could make for a coherent story but. that story isn't really being told. instead we're getting bits of pieces of. it and it's all over the map I think. what blanch was trying to do was tell a. story that wasn't so dissimilar to the. one that prosecutors told he was saying. that Cohen yes had been very loyal to.

Trump and yes had broken with Trump but. did not have this kind of change of. heart and change of personality and in. fact was still a liar and still a bully. and was lying and manipulating the. evidence and doing everything he could. to get back at this man who he used to. love and who he felt betrayed by and. that sounds like a pretty good story but. he wasn't telling it clearly enough to. my ear to really land in the room he was. confusing he got into these kind of of. petty back and forths with Cohen who by.

the way we had expected to be really out. of control during cross but in fact. stayed composed and kind of gave the. same answers over and over again saying. yes sir or when blanch brought up an. insult that Cohen had used Coen would. say that sounds like something I would. say kind of defanging like yes you know. I said that but who cares it's not a big. deal and Todd blanch almost seems as if. he's trying to win back control and he. starts asking questions that are a. little harder to follow mhm for example. he talking about these different.

investigations in which Cohen talked to. this prosecutor or that prosecutor and. it's all just very complex and somewhat. obstru or obscure and I'm watching the. jurors and they're glancing around the. room one yawns and so these are about. the most visible signs we can see of. what the jurors are thinking and what. we're seeing is that they don't look. keyed into this all important question. and answer session and so by the end of. the afternoon on Tuesday it's hot in the. courtroom it's dry it's confusing. and it's not really clear that Todd.

blanch accomplished what he was trying. to accomplish mhm although as you said. before we're only a couple hours into. cross- examination but first impressions. matter this is a crucial witness and. from what you're saying it sounds like. this first stab at discrediting Michael. Cohen kind of Peters out I think that's. exactly right but I also want to. emphasize the first part of what you. said again this was 2 hours it was the. afternoon it was after a long day of. trial in which Todd blanch is taking.

Furious notes about Cohen's direct. testimony right now Todd blanch like. those of us who are covering the trial. has a whole day a whole day to study. Cohen's testimony to prepare for it and. to come back on Thursday with the whole. day ahead of him and a coherent strategy. that he hopes will discredit Cohen and. win him the trial with this all. important witness so just to end here. Jonah I want to understand where you. think we are and our last check in you. had said that in the parlaments of the.

legal world the evidence was coming in. well for the prosecution by which you. seem to mean the prosecution was hitting. its marks there wasn't a lot of. confusion about what it was trying to do. and it seemed to be doing what it was. trying to do and without treading into. the land of prediction which is totally. pointless and counterproductive when. we're talking about a jury trial I. wonder if you think it's fair to say. that so far this trial is was going. reasonably well for the Manhattan.

district attorney and the reason I asked. that is because there were always these. pretty big questions around this case. why was this the first criminal case. against Trump a hush money trial. business falsifications I mean this is a. guy who in many people's eyes inspired. an Insurrection at the capital and this. is the case right it just to some people. felt like a confusing anticlimax and so. I'm curious if as the order covering. this in the room day in and day out.

you're finding that so far this just. does seem like a relatively. well-executed strong case prosecutors. can only bring the case that they have. in front of them so Alvin brag the. Manhattan district attorney doesn't have. the January 6 case January 6 case he. doesn't have that he has this and this. case I think maybe more than any of the. other cases in which Trump is charged is. a case that really exists in the eye of. the beholder and Michael Cohen is its. perfect Avatar in that.

sense Michael Cohen may seem credible. and he may seem utterly. unbelievable so as we look toward the. end of this trial this is the. prosecution's last witness we don't know. what kind of case if any the defense. will put on we could very much see this. case go to a jury very very soon wow. it's worth refocusing on these 12 jurors. and their relationship with Michael. Cohen Michael Cohen has told a. compelling story a compelling story but.

again he is the only witness who can. link Trump to the crimes that. prosecutors here in Manhattan have. alleged and so as the trial is very very. close to ending Michael Cohen is exactly. what we expected this big prominent. important star witness and probably the. biggest risk that prosecutors have taken.

well Jonah until next time thank you. very much of course thanks for having me. we'll be right.

back here's what else you need to. another dat Donald Trump lost two. debates to me in 2020 since then he. hadn't shown up for debate now he's. acting like he wants to debate me again. well Make My Day pal I'll even do it. twice after exchanging online taunts. President Biden and Donald Trump agreed. to two general election debates to be. held in late June and early September. the debates will bypass the nonpartisan. organization that has managed.

presidential debates for decades but. whose rules have frustrated both. campaigns as a result the Biden Trump. debates will play by their own rules the. first debate for instance will not. include a live audience as presidential. debates typically do and will establish. a high bar for including a thirdparty. candidate like Robert F Kennedy Jr in a. statement Kennedy wrote that Trump and.

Biden want to exclude him from the. debates because quote they are afraid I. would. win today's episode was produced by Eric. krupky Stella tan and will Reed it was. edited by Devin Taylor contains original. music by Pat mccusker Marian Lozano and. aliciaa and was engineered by Alysa. Moxley our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben Lanford of wonderlake.

[Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Michael. Bavaro see you tomorrow. [Music].