The Lawyers Now Turning on Trump

from New York Times I'm Michael baboro. this is the. [Music]. daily over the past few days two of the. lawyers who tried to help Donald Trump. stay in power after losing the 2020. election pleaded guilty in a Georgia. racketeering case and have agreed to. cooperate with prosecutors against the. former. president today my colleague Richard.

faet on why Trump's own advisors are now. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. flipping it's Tuesday October. [Music]. 24th Richard of all the court cases. against Donald Trump and there are many. of them you told us from the start that.

the case filed against him in Georgia. accusing him of trying to steal the 2020. election there was extremely important. largely because of the nature of the. prosecution it's a racketeering case. that treats Trump as the leader of a. criminal conspiracy and the way that. these cases work frequently is that in. order to convict a person at the top of. a case like this you tend to need lower. level defendants co-conspirators to flip. to turn on Trump that's right and this.

is what we wondered from the beginning. which of these 19 indicted. co-conspirators might end up trying to. make a deal pleading guilty and agreeing. to cooperate with prosecutors in fact a. a former prosecutor here in Georgia once. told us that you know imagine this. multi-person racketeering conspiracy. indictment that lists 19 people and. imagine it as a kind of carpet that you. Roll Up From The Bottom a lot of times.

the the most prominent figure in a. racketeering indictment will be listed. as what prosecutors actually sometimes. called dude number one in this case it's. Donald J Trump is who was dude number. one and imagine rolling up these smaller. lower level participants in the alleged. scheme who then produce a lot of. pressure on the way up so there's always. a question about who was going to. participate who was going to want to. strike a deal who was going to feel the. rer mhm and we've started to see an.

answer to that last month we saw a guy. flip named Scott Hall he's this Georgia. bale bondsman who's very politically. connected who's one of these seemingly. almost random characters who was not. very well known until he ends up being. indicted who was just kind of mixed up. in all this stuff but it's really in the. last few days that we've started to feel. the momentum build on behalf of. prosecutors with the plea deals struck. by.

two lawyers who were deeply involved in. the effort to overturn the election in. Donald Trump's favor so tell us about. these two lawyers so the first one to. take a plea was cydney Powell who I. think might be the best known to people. who were following Along on television. and elsewhere When Donald Trump was. trying to make the case that the. election had been stolen from him which. it had not miss pal is a former Federal. prosecutor who'd become a defense. attorney Sydney Powell is Michael.

Flynn's lawyer she joins us tonight. thank you and she got on Donald Trump's. radar when she began defending Michael. Flynn the former Trump Administration. official I believe the Department of. Justice is withholding a lot of. information as is all of the people who. participated in the complete setup of. General Michael Flynn you know we she. was quite pugnacious and good afternoon. and thank you very much much for coming.

fast forward to November 2020 after. election day when I finish Sydney Powell. and then Jenner Ellis Will Follow Me. Miss Powell appears at a news conference. with Rudolph Giuliani and others there. are a lot more lawyers working on this. but we're the I guess we're the we're. the senior lawyers and she is introduced. as a member of this sort of legal dream. team for the Donald Trump campaign MH. and and it's there that she starts.

laying out some of these rather wild. conspiracy theories what we are really. dealing with here and uncovering more by. the day is the interference with our. elections here in the United States the. theories that are pretty well known at. this point are just sort of Beyond. Preposterous the Dominion voting systems. were created in Venezuela at the. direction of Hugo Chavez to make sure he. never lost an election after they.

involve Venezuela they involve Cuba and. China their office in Toronto was shared. with one of the Soros entities they. involve the investor George Soros the. clintons they changed a million votes uh. with no problem she talks about how. voting machines had flipped millions of. votes from Trump to Biden president. Trump won by a landslide we are going to. prove it and we are going to reclaim the. United States of America for the people.

who vote for. Freedom she later shows up at a meeting. in December at the White House this. extremely rockus meeting where all kinds. of sort of disturbing ideas are. discussed and among them is the idea of. Sydney Powell being appointed a sort of. special Council to look into these. issues of of voting alleged voting fraud. and doing something about.

it right so ultimately what Sydney. Powell does that lands her in this case. is that she becomes a spokesperson for. and ultimately an advisor trying to. advance these theories of how and why. the election was stolen from Donald. Trump and it wasn't just talk she was. trying to guide Trump to an outcome that. would overturn the election yes and. according to the indictment she was also.

involved in and in fact is alleged to. have directed and paid for a data breach. in the elections office in a tiny rural. County south of Atlanta called Coffee. County. Georgia this was an effort by Miss pal. and others to try to find data that. might show that Mr Trump was indeed. right and this data breach became the. subject of a number of other criminal.

felony charges against her that are also. listed in this. indictment okay so that's Powell tell us. about the second lawyer to turn on Trump. in this case the second lawyer had a lot. less exposure when a lot of this stuff. is being kind of fought over on social. media and on. television the January 6 report is now. out we've got you covered on a lot of. the highlights Bannon Giuliani Eastman. but then there's a name even news. junkies might not know well Kenneth.

chesbro it's a Harvard trained lawyer by. the name of Kenneth chesbro um this the. person that the committee identified. here this known Pro Trump attorney named. Kenneth chess bro right as being the. original architect of the fake Electro. spot did you hear anything about that I. did not yeah that was not a name that I. was familiar with you know it's this is. just very bizarre for me because Ken. chesbro was my uh law school classmate. someone I uh I've known for a very long. time uh he was known as the cheese uh in. law school and he is someone who's.

really practiced very much on his own. for many years he worked with Mr chesbro. was involved in drafting a number of. memos in the effort to send slates of. pro Trump Electoral College electors to. Washington to allow for a different. outcome to the certification of the. election MH this was something that was. not happening you know on on CNN the way.

it was with Sydney pal but in some ways. it was really a more substantial effort. to create the legal underpinnings to. turn the election in Mr Trump's. favor right and just to remind everyone. how this was going to work the logic of. what ches perau was doing was that he. was trying to make sure that if Trump. got his way on January 6 ultimately. January 7th and his vice president Mike. Pence refused to certify the election in. Congress as Trump wanted that there.

would be an alternate slate of State. electors ready to say that they were. behind Trump even though the popular. vote in their states had gone to Biden. that's right and his role in setting up. these slates of alternate electors was. really at the heart of the charges. against him and Georgia okay so what do. both of these lawyers Powell. ultimately plead guilty to in Georgia.

over the past few days so it was just. very chaotic moment for both lawyers. because when you talk to people who've. done this kind of thing before they'll. tell you that a lot of times a plea deal. arranging it is kind of like when you're. trying to sell a car to somebody when. somebody's starting to say yeah I'll. take the Buick you just want to kind of. nail them down right there okay you're. taking the Bui you're taking it with the. sidewalls and blah blah blah so these. plea deals came together quickly and. they caught many of us in the Press.

Corps unawares uh can you please State. your true and correct legal name Sydney. Katherine Powell you just suddenly had. these people showing up in court and. entering pleas how do you plead to the. six counts of conspiracy to commit. intentional interference with. performance of election duties guilty. Sydney Powell pleaded guilty to a number. of counts of a misdemeanor conspiracy to. commit intentional. interference with performance of. election duties which is a mouthful but.

it was basically misdemeanors related to. the fact that she was involved in this. caper to work with an elections official. in Coffee County Georgia to steal the. data there has anyone forced threaten or. promised you anything in order to enter. into this guilty plea other than what is. recited in the documents. now and a few days later please lower. your hand and state your true and. correct legal name Kenneth John chesbro. in the case of Kenneth chesbro how do. you plead to count 15 conspiracy to.

commit filing false documents in. indictment number 23 SC1 188. 947 guilty have you chesbro pleads. guilty to one felony count and that. count is conspiracy to commit the filing. of false documents and this is related. to the fact that the fake elector slate. the prot Trump elector slate in Georgia. actually filed with Federal officials. their votes and the document said that.

this was a certificate of the votes of. the 2020 electors from Georgia when of. course it was not all right good luck Mr. chesbro thank you so much thank. youor so they both ended up pleading to. much less serious charges than they were. originally charged with which were a. number of. felonies and what is the penalty the. cost to each of these lawyers of. pleading guilty to the charges you just. described well both of them are staying.

out of prison both of them are going to. have to do some time on probation pay. various findes and each of them was told. to write a letter of apology to the. people of Georgia H and as a result of. this plea what kind and what level of. cooperation will Powell and ches be. required to offer this district attorney. in Georgia in return for what clearly. sounds like pretty modest.

sentences they've both promised to give. up documents presumably this is include. email exchanges text messages with. anyone involved in this case and this. alleged conspiracy they've each already. recorded a statement with prosecutors we. don't know exactly what's in that. statement or those statements rather but. you're tempted to assume that it's. something that's pretty good for the. prosecution given the fact that these. were relatively light sentences they got.

off with and of course they have agreed. to testify truthfully against any of. their former codefendants that doesn't. necessarily mean that they will show up. in court for those very dramatic moments. where you're pointing to you identifying. your former codefendants who are still. on trial but it could happen right quite. possibly they could end up becoming star. Witnesses against Trump who just happens. to be the leading Republican.

Presidential nominee in 2024 and it. feels Richard worth noting that despite. these modest sentences these plea deals. still entail some risk for these lawyers. I mean it's unheard of in Trump's. Universe for people to publicly turn on. him let alone to turn on him in a court. case and that's because people tend to. fear his wrath and the wrath of his. supporters which is real yeah I think. you're right that there could be. potentially very steep costs to Turning.

against a very powerful guy a very. powerful historically rather vindictive. guy but there were also reasons why it. probably seemed quite compelling for. these people to. flip and these are reasons Beyond merely. trying to avoid going to. prison. we'll be right.

back so Richard talk to us about why. flipping why pleading guilty ended up we. think seeming so compelling to these two. lawyers Beyond as you said their. understandable desire to avoid jail time. well this case in Georgia involves a. number of lawyers a number of the 19. original codefendants were in fact. lawyers and you guys have probably heard. the joke that Maga and this context. stands for making attorneys get.

attorneys that's been an operative thing. here and for Sydney Powell and for. Kenneth chesbro these are people whose. personal lives certainly their. professional lives are fully defined by. the fact that they are officers of the. court that they're lawyers the concern. about getting hit with a felony of such. a type that you would end up losing your. ability to practice law has been a huge. pressure among a number of these people. nobody wants to cop to something that's.

going to have them lose their law. licenses and that was a possibility for. both of them it was a possibility for. both of them and and it may well be. we're not exactly in a place of where. where we can say with Clarity what's. going to happen to these two lawyers and. their ability to keep practicing law but. by negotiating with prosecutors for a. lighter sentence they've put themselves. in a position where they may actually be. able to keep their law licenses got it. but there's another factor that probably. played into their decision to take a.

plea and that is the fact that hanging. in for a trial that the judge had told. potential jurors was going to last five. months is just an exceedingly expensive. proposition and unlike Donald Trump. these two folks can't turn to. fundraising appeal to their political. base and raise the millions that it. might have taken for them to pay their. lawyers right so ultimately it may not. have just come down to the facts of the. case. it may not have come down just to their.

future as. lawyers it may have also come down to a. question of money which is pretty. fascinating ultimately both poell and. cheso you're saying they may have ended. up pleading guilty here so that they. don't lose their livelihood and they. don't end up going bankrupt yeah I mean. a lot of times you hear this from. Liberal critics of the criminal justice. system when a RICO Cas is brought. against a big gang or alleged members of. a gang there are these moments where. these smaller fries are looking at the.

same kinds of problems that these very. prominent lawyers are looking at facing. a very long trial and not having the. money to pay for adequate counsel you. know the question is you know does that. really constitute the pursuit of. justice and of course two lawyers with. pretty healthy incomes aren't the same. as some of the folks in the legal system. that you are referring to but your point. is that at the end of the day these. decisions may not be a out big questions.

of whether someone thinks they can win. the case or whether they should put up. the fight but the reality that putting. up a serious defense is expensive and. intimidating and sometimes it feels like. not really a choice yeah and in this. case you know you you have a lot of. really kind of esoteric questions of. constitutional law the supremacy clause. and when it's right to charge Federal. officials and the functioning of their. duties and all this kind of stuff really. kind of fascinating stuff that lawyers. are going to be writing law review. articles about for decades if not.

centuries but there also is just this. practical matter a trial is going to. happen it's going to cost 5 months the. lawyer for these lawyers to charge X and. are you going to be able to pay X at the. end of the day this of course makes me. wonder whether and if not why Donald. Trump hasn't offered to pay the legal. bills for these two lawyers it would. seem like what's in their best interest. here is in his best interest as a.

co-defendant he knows very well that the. legal strategy here is rolling up the. carpet and getting to him dude number. one so why isn't he trying to make their. financial problems go away here that's a. great question and I don't really have a. lot of insight into the mind of uh. former president Trump you would think. that finding a way to help some of these. people fund their defenses would in fact. help him out all we really know is that. a number of these folks involved in this. indictment have had to turn to Super.

Creative means to try to raise the money. to pay their legal defenses like a. fundraising website called give send go. it's kind of a conservative version of. GoFundMe there is one very obscure. defendant an Illinois Pastor who working. through his allies was hoping to receive. some funding with a cut of sales from. organic Maga honey that is actually. packaged in a like a honey bear with.

with Trump's head where the Bear's head. would be huh unexpected yeah so it's um. these are serious manifestations of the. problem which is that they need cash to. fund their. defenses okay so I want to end by. casting us forward just a little bit as. you said at the start of this. conversation this legal strategy from. the district attorney here in Georgia. seems to be working so far and I wonder. if we should then assume that there's a. domino effect and that the rest of the.

codefendants especially those lower down. on the long list watch Powell and. chesboro flip and think well I got to. get my deal now and that that becomes a. pretty virtuous cycle for the district. attorney so should we expect a series of. guilty pleas over the coming many weeks. and months adding up to a very. problematic situation for Donald Trump. we are waiting and watching there are a. number of people who are probably in a. much worse financial position than.

either Kenneth chesbro or Sydney Powell. who just don't have any money at all the. possibility of them sitting through a. trial that would last many many months. and trying to find a way not only to pay. attorneys fees but just to find an. Airbnb or to find a motel or a hotel to. stay in for 6 months in Georgia could be. just tremendously painful for them. economically and in fact it could be. just virtually impossible so although we. don't know exactly who might flip next.

or whether anyone will flip next we're. certainly watching Pretty closely and if. you're Trump you're watching very very. closely and I have to think your legal. strategy is starting to adjust to the. reality that your alleged. co-conspirators are becoming your. enemies in that courtroom that's right. and and I think there are still a number. of ways in which Donald Trump's lawyers. are seeing a way out of this either. trying to find find a way to maneuver. things in such a way that the case never.

goes to trial here based on some. constitutional principles maybe this. case gets before The Supreme Court. before a jury in Fulton County Georgia. can really rule on on his fate and I. think there unresolved questions that. remain in this trial some of them have. to do with state of mind uh with whether. or not prosecutors can successfully show. a jury that Donald Trump really knew he. lost this election and yet pushed as. hard as he could to say he was the. winner and to in fact try to take it. anyway we don't really know exactly what.

some of this new cooperation means for. that very central question but in. general terms none of this is good for. Donald Trump we have two lawyers who. were deeply involved in various elements. of the effort to keep him in power and. now they're talking to. prosecutors.

[Music]. well Richard thank you very much thanks. [Music]. Michael we'll be right back.

here's what else you need to know today. on Monday Israel's military struck. hundreds of Targets in Gaza in one of. its biggest barrages since its war with. Hamas began Hamas now claims that such. air strikes have killed more than 5,000. Palestinians since October 7th when. Israel began retaliating for a Hamas. attack that killed 1,400 Israelis. despite the perception that an Israeli.

ground invasion of Gaza is imminent the. times reports that the Biden. Administration has advised Israel to. delay such an offensive that delay is. designed to allow for more humanitarian. Aid to enter Gaza and to give Hamas more. time to release the hostages that it's. holding there on Monday night Hamas. released two more of those hostages both. elderly women who had been abducted at a. key boots in southern.

Israel and the union representing. striking American Auto Workers told. nearly 7,000 employees at a pickup truck. plant in Michigan to walk off the job in. a major escalation of its 6- week long. strike against Detroit's big three. automakers the walkout is especially. disruptive because the plant owned by. stellantis makes the Ram 1500 one of the. best selling pickup trucks in the. country to end the strike the union is.

demanding significantly higher wages and. the reinstatement of traditional. pensions for retiring. workers today's episode was produced by. Claire tennis getter and Rob zipco it. was edited by Lisa Chow contains. original music by Maran Lozano and Dan. pal and was engineered by Chris Wood our. theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben L. work of.

[Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael Babar see you. [Music]. tomorrow.