'The Interview': Pete Buttigieg Thinks the Trump Fever Could Break

[Music]. from The New York Times this is the. interview I'm Lulu Garcia. Navaro it has been no exaggeration one. of the most consequential and dizzying. periods in modern American politics it. began with President Biden's disastrous. debate then came an assassination. attempt against former president Trump a. week later President Biden dropped out. of the race and endorsed his vice. president KLA Harris and now Harris is.

the deao Democratic nominee at warp. speed the Dynamics of this entire. election have changed not just for. voters but for party leaders like Pete. Budaj who went from being a top Biden. surrogate to a top Harris surrogate in. hours Buddha judge is one of the most. popular figures in the Democratic party. nicknamed mayor Pete he shot into the. Limelight when he ran for president in. 2020 as the mayor of Southbend Indiana. he then joined the Biden Administration.

as Secretary of Transportation but he's. also frequently on TV as one of the. Democrats top Messengers reportedly he's. under consideration to become Harris's. running mate if it happened and they won. he'd be the first openly gay VP on. Thursday I sat down with budajudge to. talk about how Biden's decision to drop. out changed the race what took so long. and what's next and if you notice that. I'm not calling him secretary budajudge. or asking anything about his work in the. cabinet it's because there's a law the.

Hatch Act that prevents him from mixing. his day job with campaigning here's my. conversation with Pete. [Music]. Budaj this has been a shocker of a week. and now Democrats find themselves having. to kind of build the plane while they're. flying it they're sort of redefining the. race they're having to introduce a new. candidate they're building momentum in.

the electorate what have you found most. surprising as you've been out. campaigning for vice president Harris. well yeah we've certainly had uh one. surprise after another these last few. weeks but what's been really interesting. is to watch how she has built her. campaign so quickly of course part of. that is that she was already part of the. ticket she's already part of this. Administration uh the overall values are. the same the themes are the same and yet. she did a lot more than just create uh a. campaign organiz a or Rebrand a campaign.

organization in a day or two you see her. sounding themes that are distinctively. hers and I think seeing that happen so. quickly has been really impressive and. it is remarkable that there's been this. sudden Vibe shift if you will in the. Democratic party since Biden dropped out. what do you ascribe that level of. enthusiasm to well I think they're. excited about what she represents as a. messenger and it's been exciting to uh. have uh a new focus on the things that.

we care about part of what President. Biden did with his very just. extraordinary historic selfless Choice. was he tore down some obstacles that. stood between voters and and and the. media and commentators and and all of us. and focusing on a lot of the the issues. and the values that I think can Propel. Democrats to Victory and what I mean by. that is all the things that the election. is really about the chance to have an. election that is not just about two. candidates but is about Us and how the.

choices that are going to be made by the. next president affect our. lives that's something that is coming. through with a new Clarity right now and. that as you described Vibe shift is is. really extraordinary there's been kind. of a a level of Joy To The Campaign that. that I think is is welcome not that it. won't have incredibly tough moments in. in the weeks ahead I'm sure um but it's. become yet another point of contrast I. think between our ticket and the. Republican ticket which seems to really.

lean into this Deathmatch conception of. what politics is tear down obstacles I. mean the. obstacle many would say was President. Biden himself to this moment a new times. poll shows that over 80% of Voters are. happy that Biden dropped out clearly. voters were hungering for something. different I mean why did the party. ignore that desire for change for so. long well I think this is something the.

party was wrestling with for a long time. and then the president wrestled with it. personally and then he did something. that is it is World historically rare. for not just the leader of a country but. the most powerful person in the world to. lay power aside and it was really moving. to watch in his speech the way he. explained his his thinking and and said. that this is not about uh me it's about. you but at the same time I also think. his choice Consolidated uh his standing. his presidency and his legacy in a way.

that that makes me proud of him I want. to talk about that decision but I first. want to just ask you about how the. decision came about because you know CNN. reported that there haven't been any. full cabinet meetings since late last. year and so I don't know how often you. were meeting with President Biden. himself but as a surrogate did you not. have any questions or doubts about his. abilities you know last time I was. working with President Biden really. closely was uh uh during a a disaster a.

few months ago I'm reminding myself I'm. not supposed to appear in my official. capacity so I W delve into that um but. look nobody's denying that he's 10 years. older than he was 10 years ago and and. unlike what you see in the Trump. personality cult we're not going around. saying that he leaps tall buildings and. a single bound and as strong as an ox. the point is that he's really good at. being president and in my view still. is hearing you you you have framed it as. he sacrificed for his country that this.

was a noble act but the reality was that. he was facing sliding polling numbers he. saw defection of donors and members of. his party he could have made that choice. weeks ago giving vice president Harris. or any eventual nominee a much longer. Runway and time to defeat Donald Trump. and he didn't do it did he wait too long. one of the things you sign up for when. you go into politics and certainly when. you're in high office is everybody else. telling you what you should done and we.

can all say he should have done this or. he should have done the same thing but a. different time or should have done it in. a different way but the fact stands that. he did an extraordinary thing in my view. a selfless thing and in my view the. right thing you know we in the media. were raising legitimate questions about. Biden's age and his ability to run and. yet reporters were being excoriated by. the campaign for asking those questions. and by Biden in public how do those.

attacks on the Press sit with you now. knowing what we know well look I've. never participated in an attack on the. Press um I think that it is natural to. feel strong passionate defensive even. about the person you believe in when you. feel like they're being attacked. especially when you feel like they're. being attacked unfairly and there were a. lot of moments where there sense well. certain Dimensions I think were unfair. for example uh the fact that uh in a. given day you might have almost. identical flubbing of names by the two.

major candidates but only one of them uh. would have that be uh uh be kind of. plastered uh in in certain people's. commentary so there there was a sense. and look again it's it's the nature of. being passionate about the person you. believe in uh to come to their defense. but at the end of the day what happened. was one of the most extraordinary and. rare things ever and look I say this to. somebody who has I have launched. campaigns I know what it's like to end a. campaign and um and I also know that he. did what he feels like is the right.

thing and and what I think is a decision. that will allow him to concentrate on. the presidency and uh allow the the uh. campaign and the party to concentrate on. the. campaign we've seen just Democrats. rallying around the VP and we started. this conversation by talking about how. quickly Everything Has. coalesced there was a lot of discussion. in the weeks after Biden's disappointing. debate about what another nomination.

process could look like and at the end. it just didn't seem like there was been. any appetite for an open convention a. more competitive process among Democrats. why do you think that. is I think a lot of people uh looked at. her looked at what she brought uh looked. at the importance of quickly bringing. the party together and uh reached that. conclusion that backing her was the best. way to do that and again I I know a. little bit about this I remember making.

the the toughest decision of my personal. political career which was the decision. to end my presidential campaign and. realizing that even though I wasn't a. candidate anymore what I did mattered. and I had a responsibility uh to try to. do what I could to lead to a good. outcome and that that led me to decide. very quickly to back President Biden's. campaign and this felt like a similar. moment where uh you know whether it was. by Dent of being in office or just being. somebody with a platform there were a. lot of people who I love of influence.

and therefore a lot of responsibility. and just about everybody decided the. best way to use that influence and. responsibility was to help bring the. party together quickly I mean it's good. politics do you think people actually. came to these uh conclusions. individually or was there a sense from. the party leadership that everyone. needed to fall in. line well Democrats are not exactly. famous for falling in line when uh when. we do something like coales that quickly. I think it's because there's a real.

sense uh up and down and throughout the. party that that it's the right thing to. do I've actually I'm not sure I've ever. seen us this quickly unify around. anything I mean switching up the ticket. has offered Democrats this chance to. reset not just on the person but on the. message and the policies President Biden. for example has taken a lot of heat for. his handling of the war on Gaza. inflation the. Border would you like to see the Harris. campaign differentiating itself on the. those particular issues well I'll leave.

it to her to indicate where there will. be continuity and where she might have a. different approach or maybe just a. different emphasis um would you like to. see well I I I'd like to see her uh. reach those concerns that Americans have. so on something like inflation for. example I think she's well positioned. not just to explain how she's. contributed to the work that brought. inflation back down to 3% in this. country but also the difference between. her economic proposals and the clearly.

inflationary proposals of Donald Trump. and this is really important because. it's actually an example of any of the. issues you just mentioned where even if. there is impatience among the American. people or the American people don't. think we got it perfectly right even on. these issues they disagree with Donald. Trump's approach and on terms of what to. do next would generally favor what we. propose more than what he proposes to do. next what you're saying I mean nothing. has fundamentally changed about the. Democratic message here which is that.

things are getting better that inflation. has gone down under President Biden I. mean that's been something that the. Democratic party has been trying to run. on and push over and over and over again. and yet poll after poll shows that more. people trust former president Trump on. these issues than President Biden are. you suggesting that now because it's a. new candidate kamla Harris can reset and. people will just forget that she was. part of the. administration what I'm saying is that. part of what a candidate does part of.

what a messenger does is convince people. of things and I think she's a very. convincing. leader there's been this discussion. about. how to define kamla Harris now right and. so part of what Democrats like yourself. and others are trying to do is is you. know show her for who she wants to be as. the next president of the United States. and the right meanwhile is trying to. portray kamla Harris as this far-left. extension of the failures of the Biden.

Administration and they're also using a. lot of sexist and racist attacks they're. calling her a Dei hire and worse stuff. that I don't want to repeat and I just. wonder as a surrogate how you combat. that well I do think that those attacks. have been a bad look for republicans and. you can tell because uh when you got. somebody like Mike Johnson who is a very. very conservative figure right the. Speaker of the House telling his own.

caucus like hey cool it uh he's. basically saying that they are. embarrassing the party and I think. acknowledging that they are diminishing. the party's chances by indulging in that. kind of rhetoric and the fact that they. can't think of what else to do. besides go right to race and gender. isn't just revealing about some of the. ugliest undercurrents in today's. Republican party it's also just. profoundly unim imaginative because it.

means that they can't speak to how any. of this is going to make people's lives. better in other words certainly not. Trump's campaign or Trump's party they. can't conceive a politics that isn't. just about the personalities so. everything he does is he beats his chest. about his own Persona and he tears down. his opponent none of that is about us. none of it's about you and that's again. why their inability to do that their. inability to explain how your life as an. American every day will be any different.

certainly any better is revealed in the. fact that they immediately reach for one. of two things saying she's too far left. which is what literally every Republican. says about literally any Democrat who is. running against a republic if Joe. Mansion were the nominee they'd say the. same thing about him it's just standard. and therefore boring or these really. ugly attacks which uh maybe are are. meant to get attention but they are very. much telling on themselves when they go. there.

okay Pete you are clearly one of the. party's best communicators you can. deliver a message you have been very on. message while we've been talking I am. thinking about how you see your role. right now because you know while Biden. rarely talked to the Press you not only. engage with people like me but you also. go to Fox. News and I am wondering why you do that. what is it about taking the message. there that you find um could move the.

needle well the reason I think it's so. important to take the message there is. because I know that there are so many. people who tune in in good faith um I. don't always feel that the corporation. that runs Fox News is acting in good. faith but I know that the viewers. because there people I know I mean my. neighbors in Michigan might be tuning in. in good faith and getting their. information from this news source so I. as a as a political.

figure can hardly. blame uh a voter for not being. responsive to our message if they. literally have never heard it and we're. in a very fragmented environment uh. honestly we're lucky if we can get to. somebody through TV versus just uh uh. even more fragmented internet sources. and I know that if I'm on that Network. I'm one of relatively few voices with. our message and so if I didn't go there. to give that message some somebody might. literally never hear it I also know that.

you cannot assume who somebody is or how. they're going to uh vote just based on. what network they watch of course. there's a lot of strong patterns but um. there's a lot of people who um who can. be moved and and sometimes the person. who picked the channel is not the same. as the other person who's also in the. house who's listening to what's being. said and so uh I think there's a. responsibility to take this message into. those spaces um just as you know when I. was running for president I did it. geographically to and in Iowa really.

kind of specialized in in counties that. had voted for Barack Obama but then had. turned around and voted for Donald Trump. and and those counties were ones where I. did well in because they they were ready. to listen not because they suddenly. became uh more Progressive or because I. pretended to be uh a a full-throated. conservative which is because sometimes. when you explain what you believe to. somebody even if they don't completely. agree with you they respect you more and. and are inclined to maybe trust you and. give you the benefit of the doubt so. that's why I'm there do you think the. vice president presid should go on Fox.

um do you think she should debate on Fox. I would be skeptical of the fairness of. a debate um hosted by Fox but that's a. decision that I'm sure she and and The. Campaign Will will think. through I do want to ask you about a a. specific uh shift in messaging I've. noticed this week from the Democrats the. Harris campaign is leaning into the idea. that Trump is quote weird I've seen this. weird word floating around it's very. different from the way Democrats had.

framed him before which is that he's an. existential threat to democracy this. terrifying figure that is going to take. away people's rights weird seems a. different tack than that what do you. think of that strategy of basically. laughing at. him well to be clear I think we're doing. both we're talking about the. implications for democracy and noting. that that he is obviously a uh a strange. person who's getting Str stranger I mean. I think one of the things that.

especially now that we have a. generational difference between uh uh. kamla Harris and and Donald Trump who's. who's a generation older is that we're. watching his trajectory not not that he. was ever the most disciplined and and. straightforward person but you know four. years ago even I would be still taking. back uh if he was uh like rambling about. electrocuting sharks and all these other. things you see him doing that that. really are weird and you got to ask. yourself. uh you know is that the kind of person.

you want in charge of the country. especially because we we saw how not. just weird but but but chaotic it was. last time and part of the promise of a. of a kamla Harris presidency is actually. the prospect of a comparatively normal. Republican party what I mean by that is. you know beating Donald Trump the first. time in 2020 ended his term but it did. not end his grip on the GOP. beating him twice would I think have a.

different effect on a lot of people in. the GOP who know better than to be on. board with him he goes against their. values too not just my values but. they've gone along with it because they. think it's the path to power and it. would become abundantly clear that that. is not true if we beat him not just the. way we beat him in 2020 not just the way. we indirectly beat him in 2022 in the. midterms but beat him a second or or so. to speak third time and we will always. have Fierce and meaning F disagreements. between Democrats and Republicans but.

there's a chance of that difference. those debates being a little less ugly. or to put it another way a little less. weird what I'm hearing you say and. please correct me if I'm wrong is that. if Donald Trump is defeated in this. election then. perhaps the Republican Party can be. freed from his grip I think so I think. so look I made myself watched the first. couple Republican Presidential debates.

when we still had a lot of Republican. candidates this. cycle. and there were still some some things. that I thought were pretty fringe and. just about everything I heard I. disagreed with but apart from some of. the the the darkness of vivx populism. most of what you saw on there you could. be forgiven for thinking you were. looking at a at at a more normal. Republican party were it not for the. fact that the entire thing was an under. card because Donald Trump wasn't there.

and he was wasn't is dominating the. party look we have fooled ourselves many. times before into thinking that the. fever would break we thought it would. happen before he was elected when the. Access Hollywood tape revealed that he. had boasted about sexual assault we. thought it would happen when he was. defeated but he wasn't in. 2016 we thought it might happen after. January 6 and it very very nearly did so. many of the people who are now uh. kissing up to him basically turned their.

back on him then it felt we got so close. to the fever breaking but it didn't. quite break because Republicans found. that their access to power still. depended on their standing with Donald. Trump if he leads this party to defeat a. third time after his defeat in 2020 and. his party's defeat in 2022 I believe. that the self-interest just the internal. power dynamics of the GOP the very power. dynamics that have kept them inthrall to.

him even though so many of them know. better notably including by the way JD. Vance who back when he was uh speaking. truthfully and for himself uh referred. to Donald Trump as an idiot and compared. him to an opioid which is an. exceptionally dark thing uh to say about. somebody if you are from or connected to. Appalachia as JD Vance is right uh and. that was in public in private comparing. him to Hitler and now turning around. supporting but my point is all of that. finally Breaks Loose if they realize. that attaching yourself to Donald Trump.

doesn't just destroy. your character it destroys your access. to. power you know you've talked about this. fever breaking that you have an appetite. for but we just had an assassination. attempt against former president Trump. and he got off off the floor and he. raised his fist in the air with the. American flag waving in the background. and he said fight fight fight and his. popularity now and more recent polls has.

gone up people see him as someone who. takes his licks and keeps on ticking and. that speaks to for some people real. fundamental American values. about being tough and not caving into. intimidation and so I I'm just wondering. if you think that a moment like that you. know really breaks through to people and. makes him seem fundamentally different. than the way that you're describing him. which is weird and aging and vindictive.

Etc well I think lots of things can be. true at the same time uh that was an. extraordinary image and it is true that. he was injured in an attempt on his life. and he got right back up and that's why. that image is so. powerful but it doesn't change the fact. that he has shown himself to be. vindictive and backward looking and more. interested in his past than in our. future and I would add. there was a moment in the wake of that.

horrifying moment there was a sense that. he would follow that up by taking the. stage at the RNC in. Milwaukee and demonstrating his capacity. to help bring this country together and. for a few minutes he stuck to the script. and it looked like that was going to. happen and then the next hour and a half. happened and it was as backward looking. and rage filled and self-obsessed as. anything he would have been saying 1. year or 3 years or 5 years. [Music].

ago more with Pete budajudge after the. [Music]. [Music]. break you men JD Vance and I do uh want.

to also ask you about him even though. your politics are very far. apart you do share a lot on paper you're. both midwesterners you both served in. the military you ended up in Elite. places for school and then you spent. time in the business World um before. becoming. politicians does that give you any. special perspective on him as a person. well I've certainly encountered a lot of. people like him and I think he and I. both or each emerged at a time when a.

lot of people in the midwest began to. find that that commentators and and um. uh figures from uh from the coasts were. kind of approaching our part of the. country almost like we were these kind. of almost with exotic. Fascination and at least in in my case I. sought to engage that attention as a way. to bring. support to the city that I was leading.

as mayor that I was trying to inspire. people to believe in because there's. actually a lot of creativity and. Innovation I think in a different way he. he he chased that same Vibe it seems to. have led him to Silicon Valley but then. it led him to this place where he's. advancing a vision that is terrible for. places like where I come from and I. would argue where he comes from but the. other thing I would say is you know he. has traed on Fascination about. Midwestern stories and Midwestern.

values but the most important Midwestern. value I know of is to be. straightforward to be true to yourself. to be true to your. core and because he spoke. unequivocally about how Sinister and. unfit Donald Trump was just a few years. ago only to flip around Embrace him and. be on his ticket so that he can have. more power people are wondering if he. has any core at all have you read.

hillbilly. elegy it's one of those books that I own. but I haven't. read just to be. honest um I've dipped into it I haven't. read it cover to. cover speaking of Vice Presidents the. next big decision of course for Harris. is who her own VP is going to be and um. in a recent NPR PBS Maris poll I'm sure. you know this you are t with Michigan. Governor Gretchen Whitmer as the most.

popular person for the VP pick I know. you're not going to tell me uh if you. want the job or not but do you think. you'd be a good vice. president I don't think it's appropriate. for me to talk like that knowing that. the person who needs to make that. decision is the person who's going to. make it and that's her not me um what I. will say is I'm going to do everything I. can to help her become the next. president and would you like to be vice. president. again I I don't think it's appropriate.

for me to wander down that path with you. right. now what would it mean though to have an. openly gay vice. president I think just as it does in the. job I'm in now just as it as it did as. mayor or to run for president uh as. someone who's openly gay it means that. what used to be an indomitable barrier. isn't. anymore as recently as 10 years ago I. think any knowledgeable person would. have said that the idea of a openly gay.

person pursuing a presidential campaign. and getting anywhere was not just uphill. it was is preposterous 15 years ago when. I took the oath of uh commission to to. join the military it wasn't just a some. unfortunate prejudicial Norm it was the. law of this country that I would be. fired for being gay that's changed and. like anybody who is a. first um I'm I'm mindful of what that. means and I try to to live up to what. that might mean to others it's not why.

I'm doing this work but it's one more. reason to take it. seriously whoever the VP is you know. identity is going to play a huge part in. the race Harris would be the first woman. of color to lead a major party ticket. and I will say that you know many of the. black and brown women friends that I. have have said to me you know what. there's no way that she'll be elected. there's like a fatalism there a. cynicism about just how far we've.

actually come as a. country what would you. say about. that I completely get where that comes. from and and. yet even in my short career and life uh. I have seen these. impossibilities turn into realities. things that were're not just unlikely. but would have been considered.

ridiculous have become the norm again. and again and again and and not the easy. way I mean through struggle and and and. persistence um can happen but if that. isn't true then why does she have to. choose a white guy as a VP I mean that's. who's being. vetted look she's going to choose no. nobody knows more other than maybe Joe. Biden uh nobody knows more about the. vice presidency than she does nobody. knows more about the the job of running. that's not the question the question is.

about why does she choose if it isn't. true that there is a concern this what. my answer what I'm saying is uh for very. good reasons she knows what she's doing. she knows the job she knows what she. wants and she knows the people out there. who she's going to want to consider um. but again the other thing I would say. and certainly about her future. presidency which will be historic is. that before something like that happens. people always think it's impossible we.

so many people thought that in. 2008 anybody who is going to be a first. has to overcome that. skepticism last question I assume at. this point you know kamla Harris very. well um do you have any specific story. about working with her something about. her as a person that you think voters. should. know I think people do know this but she. is uh not just impressive she's smart. and funny and uh the the best chances I. had to see this were uh when I was very.

involved in debate prep I was um asked. to effectively play Mike Pence which is. a very strange psychological thing for. me to do but I'm so glad I got to do it. because I got to see her in action and. um what I love is that that is coming. through you know so so often you hear. about politicians I really it is true. sometimes they say oh this person's like. really funny and loose but it doesn't. just doesn't come through on TV um or. you know this person's smarter than than. you would think just watching on TV but. I actually think what's interesting not.

just TV but the internet has picked up. on the fact that she has this great. sense of humor and and I think it's by. the way also revealing that the gop's. tried to attack her for it and that's. Fallen flat I mean even just the this. idea of you know sending around images. of her laughing as if her Joy is. something that uh you know looks bad. when when actually what looks bad is to. be the the doom and death march. Republican party against a Democratic. party that on one hand is very cleare. eyed about the mistakes of this election. and on the other hand is visibly.

enjoying ourselves right. now P Buddha judge thank you so much I. appreciate your time thank. you covered a lot of ground. there we did I appreciate. [Music]. it that's Pete Buddha. jedge this conversation was produced by. Annabelle bacon it was edited by Allison. Benedict mixing by AE Shapiro original.

music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano. photo illustration by Devon yulin the. rest of the team is priia Matthew Wyatt. orm and Seth Kelly our executive. producer is Allison Benedict special. thanks to Jessica lustic Maddie masello. Rory Walsh renan burelli Jeffrey Miranda. Brook mters Jake Silverstein Paula. Schuman and Sam doick if you like what. you're hearing follow or subscribe to. the interview wherever you you get your. podcasts to read or listen to any of our.

conversations you can always go to NY. times.com thein and you can email us. anytime at the interiew atny times.com. I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro and this is the. interview from The New York. [Music]. Times for.