The Government Takes On Ticketmaster

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da I have got a bone to pick as usual. with Ticket Master the biggest problem. that I have right now is not getting. tickets to the aor Loading loading. loading when I'm so bad when I'm so bad. when I'm so bad oh nope I looked at my. account and the tickets are. [Music]. gone over the past few years few. companies have provoked as much anger I. cannot afford $1,500 tickets among music. fans oh my God as Ticket Master I.

literally hate Ticket Master like there. is no company I think I hate more than. Ticket Master Ticket Master a to look in. the mirror and say I'm the problem it's. me last week the Department of Justice. announced it was taking the company to. court today my colleague David McCabe on. how the government's case could reshape. America's multi-billion dollar live. music industry.

it's Thursday May. [Music]. 30th so David good to have you back you. have become a beloved guest at the daily. because the government keeps bringing. these huge Anti-Trust cases and we keep. turning to you to explain them well it's. a pleasure to be back and today I have a. question for you which is what was the. first concert you ever went to oh my. gosh the first concert I ever went to oh. my God I think it was van.

in the 1980s which maybe is before you. were born you know no comment but that's. a pretty good first concert and the case. that we're here to talk about today is. actually all about shows like a Van. Halen concert in 1980 okay I'm ready so. let's get into it this case as you and I. both know is about Ticket Master so tell. us about this case so anyone who attends. concerts regularly or even irregularly.

probably knows about Ticket Master it's. kind of the ubiquitous digital box. office and those people are probably. also familiar with the ubiquitous fan. complaints about Ticket Master that the. company puts High fees that they don't. entirely explain onto tickets that. tickets will sell out really fast during. these sort of frantic pre-sales for. tours and that the website doesn't. always work very well and probably the. most infamous Ticket Master incident in. recent memory was a couple years ago.

when the pre-sale began for Taylor. Swift's massive irus tour and fans got. locked out couldn't get tickets and were. absolutely Furious and it really put in. the spotlight the power of this company. over the ability to buy a ticket to a. live music event so the doj is pointing. the finger at this company for all this. consumer angst at Ticket Master well and. when you say this company it's not just. Ticket Master it's the company that owns. Ticket Master.

called Live Nation entertainment we'll. say Live Nation for and it's a giant. compan and to think about just how. gigantic and how expansive Live Nation. is I think it's helpful to think about. The Fan Experience of going to a. concert it starts with buying a ticket. and maybe you buy a group of tickets for. you and your friends and then one of. your friends can't make it they got. other plans you resell their ticket so. you can make your money back and then. the day of the show you go it's this big.

production it's at a venue someone has. booked the artist to appear you go you. buy a beer you have a good. time Live Nation is involved in many. parts of that process and that starts. with being a major concert promoter. they're the one putting it on arranging. the event they're also selling the. tickets through Ticket Master sometimes. they're also involved in reselling the. tickets when your friend can't make it. and not only that they actually. sometimes manage the artists and they. owe or operate the venues where the show.

is happening so even down to that beer. you're drinking to enjoy with the show. they might be involved in picking the. person who sells that beer to. you so basically they're everywhere. they're everywhere and the justice. department says that's a big part of the. problem that its power is bad for. fans good morning earlier today the. Department of Justice and we really. heard that come through at the press. conference last week that the F at hell.

to announce this case people always. remember the first time that they were. transformed by live music where Mark. Garland the Attorney General really. personalized this issue I still remember. as a senior in college going to a Bonnie. rate. concert he told this story about going. to Bonnie rate concert in college mer. Garland did yeah mer Garland did I don't. think a Amic Garland and Bonnie R. together in the same sentence well. apparently in college he attended a. Bonnie R show and the thing he. highlighted was that the opener was a.

young Bruce Springsteen we all know that. we had just seen the future of rock and. roll and in that story the Attorney. General seems to be getting at two. important threads of this case the first. is that concerts are formative for the. people who attend them and the second is. that concerts are an important way that. artists reach their fans that young. Bruce Springstein went on to now be one. of the biggest touring artists in the. world the justice department filed this. lawsuit on behalf of fans who should be.

able to go to concerts without a. monopoly standing in their way we have. followed this lawsuit on behalf of. artists who should be able and so the. justice department is responding here to. a feeling that Live Nation this giant. company has become a gatekeeper for both. artists and fans and that has allowed it. to pay artists less sometimes but also. charge fans those fees that they're so. mad about it is time for fans and. artists to stop paying the price for.

live Nations. Monopoly thank. you so help us understand how things. have gotten to this point where Live. Nation is so powerful that the doj feels. they need to sue them well this company. has a long history of tangling with the. justice department and that really. starts in 2009 when Live Nation and. Ticket Master announced that they're. going to merge and this merger this big. corporate deal will marry live nation's.

concert promotion business the business. of putting on shows with Ticket Masters. experience as an online ticketing. platform and the justice department a. big part of its job is looking at. corporate mergers to figure out if they. will substantially lessen competition in. the economy so the justice department. reviews this merger and in 2010 decid we. will let this merger go through but we. do have some concerns that it might. reduce competition in the industry. ticketing and so we're going to reach a.

legal settlement with Live Nation and. Ticket Master that puts conditions on. the deal that requires the company to. sell some assets to kind of lessen its. footprint and so the merger goes through. and that creates the sort of modern-day. Live Nation tick Master Combination so. the government ultimately actually just. lets it happen that's right they put. conditions on the merger But ultimately. they let it go through and the company. continues to tank with the justice.

department over the next 15 or so years. but mostly they keep getting bigger they. keep growing their footprint across this. ecosystem that creates some of the. biggest concert tours in the country so. just how big has the company actually. become give me some numbers well let's. start here every year they sell about. 600 million tickets 600 million tickets. that's more than the number of people in. the United States of America yeah and. that is a global number but it's a lot. of tickets right the Department of.

Justice estimates that in the United. States Live Nation controls about 80% of. ticketing to Major venue concerts W. right so that's a big percentage they. also own or control like in excess of. 250 venues including a big percentage. the Justice forment says of major. amphitheaters the kind of big outdoor. concert venues that are ultimately kind. of in between a night club and and the. size of like a big football stadium and. they manage hundreds of artists they. have this direct relationship with.

artists and so this company is wide and. it is deep into this industry MH so. ultimately the justice department says. that and I'm going to quote here it's. the quote gatekeeper for delivery of. nearly all live music in America today. okay it's big but as we know from other. doj cases and this is something that you. have taught me David the cases you know. against Apple and Google just being big. is not in and of itself a problem that's.

right where companies run a foul of the. law is when they use their power as a. monopoly against their competitors in. order to stay powerful or get more. powerful and the justice department says. that Live Nation has built a complex. machine to do just that. [Music].

we'll be right. back so what does the doj say that Live. Nation is able to do because it is so. big how does it use its bigness so the. most prominent allegation is that Live. Nation uses its power as a concert. promoter to entrench its power in. ticketing as a reminder when you put. together a concert a promoter works with. an artist to book the show they book The. show at a venue and that venue for all.

of its shows has to choose a ticketing. provider right a digital box office. where people can buy their way into the. shows right and what the justice. department is arguing here is that Live. Nation is able to wield its big artists. the tours that it. promotes as a cudel to force venues to. use Ticket Master its ticketing surface. so the justice department says that in. an instance in which a venue switched.

away from using Ticket Master that Live. Nation routed tours around that venue. which of course means less money for. that venue and a problem for their. business interesting so basically Live. Nation saying look if you want Taylor. Swift in your little Amphitheater over. there you're going to have to use Ticket. Master it's Ticket Master or no Taylor. Swift that is effectively the behavior. of the justice department is arguing has. happened here they're saying that like. Nation does this in veiled ways and that.

more importantly it's really understood. by venues throughout the industry that. if you don't use Ticket Master that you. really risk out on losing important Live. Nation managed tours and then once these. venues do choose Ticket Master Live. Nation locks them into these long. exclusive ticketing contracts which can. last for as long as 14 years 14 years. that's pretty long what else is doj. alleging that Live Nation has done. another thing the justice department. says Live Nation does is use its power.

as an owner of venues to get away with. paying artists less money for their. tours so how does that work basically. the argument is that because Live Nation. controls so many of certain types of. venues that there are instances in which. an artist tour might largely be. dominated by live nation-owned venues. and the justice department is saying. that Live Nation knows that artists. don't have a lot of other options for. where to play their concerts and as a. result is able to pay those artist less. because there's not competitive pressure.

when they're booking those tours that. seems pretty unfair to artists who would. really benefit from other venues owned. by other people competing for them and. that's exactly what the justice. department is saying that artists lose. out not just fans and there's a striking. story in the complaint that I think. crystallizes how the justice department. sees these streams of power coming. together. [Music].

and it concerns a concert which the. lawsuit doesn't name in 2021 my. colleague Ben Cesario has reported that. it was a Kanye West concert featuring. Drake it was a benefit show and it was. taking place at the LA Coliseum in Los. Angeles. okay one of the companies involved in. putting on this show was a firm called. TEEG they do promotion and ticketing of. the kind that Live Nation does and the. government says that live. saw this as a threat that they saw this.

company TEEG involved in this show and. they were worried about what it would. mean for them and that they then. undertook steps to put pressure on TEEG. and make their life difficult in a. couple. ways the first was that TEEG had reached. a deal to sell some tickets according to. the complaint through StubHub StubHub is. a secondary resale Market you know you. can buy tickets to shows when people. aren't going to use them right and. competitor to Ticket Master right and. competitor to Ticket Master and the.

justice department says that Live Nation. found out about that and said well we. have the exclusive ticketing contract. for this venue and so we will make sure. that if you bought your ticket on stuff. Hub you won't be allowed to come in to. this show really like they couldn't come. into the concert well and ultimately the. complaint says that StubHub had to work. with Ticket Master to fulfill the. tickets that had already been sold that. they stopped selling new tickets and. that hundreds of people who bought their. ticket tickets on StubHub didn't get.

into the show that seems very unfair. like they bought a ticket well and. according to the justice department it. didn't stop there that Live Nation used. its industry connections to pressure an. investor in TEEG this company that it. viewed as a threat and that it pushed. that investor to pull back from its. relationship with TEEG which obviously. would have weakened this potential. competitor so these are very strong. armed tactics what is the doj saying is.

the result of all of this like what does. all of this amount to it says that all. of this adds up to higher fees for. consumers and a worse product a worse. quality ticketing experience when fans. go to buy because Live Nation doesn't. have to compete with anyone it doesn't. have to innovate in response to. competitors so among other things the. justice department wants to break this. company up at the very least by. separating Ticket Master the ticketing. unit the box office unit from the rest.

of Live Nation that does all these other. things promotes concerts owns venues Etc. so in other words go back to the way it. was in the beginning yeah or as much as. you can and why does that fix the. problem well the justice department. doesn't say a lot on this point but it's. clear that what they want to do with. this lawsuit is disrupt this cycle where. live nation's power reinforces itself. again and again and again and what does. Live Nation say in response I imagine.

they disagree with all of this they do. they've said a lot and they start out by. saying something that will be familiar. to you because other companies that have. been accused of antitrust violation say. it as well which is that they don't fit. the profile of a monopoly okay that. their overall profit margins are lower. than those of companies like meta or. Apple or Google and that even if you. look at Ticket Master specifically they. take a smaller percentage of every sale. than a lot of other digital platforms so. they say basically the numers show that.

we don't have the kind of power you. would normally associate with a. monopoly and then they say listen we. know that there are things that fans. don't like about the ticketing. experience there may be fixes to those. but largely it's not live nation's fault. they say they say that artists generally. set the prices they want people to pay. for tickets really so artists themselves. do it right that artists sign off on how. much a ticket will cost to their shows.

uhhuh and they also say that demand. sometimes drives ticket prices up if. there are more people who want to see a. show than there are seats or standing. room to see that show the prices will be. higher and finally they say that there's. this kind of pricious outside force of. scalpers people who resell tickets that. use Bots to Hoover up way more tickets. than they could possibly use and then. resell them at a higher price and so. they say that all these things may. contribute to a fan experience that. people don't like but that it's not. necessarily live nation's fault I mean.

to me this makes certain sense I guess. if you think of you know a Taylor Swift. show and lots of people trying to buy. tickets you know one reason why those. tickets are expensive is not necessarily. because there's something nefarious. going on but because lots of people want. to buy tickets and there's a market and. you know supply and demand has a role. here well and a clear question here that. I have that other people have asked is. how much does the justice department. think ticket prices have gone up because. of this alleged Live Nation. and the justice department hasn't.

answered that question they haven't. disentangled it with all of the other. stuff that's around Market forces. everything that's right and there's. another element of live nation's. response that we should mention which is. that the company basically says this. lawsuit is politically motivated that. this Administration the Biden. Administration is bringing lawsuits that. don't hold a lot of water but are anti-. business that's what Live Nation is. saying I mean it does sort of ring true. in some sense right this has been the. tilt of this Administration toward.

cracking down on big companies the doj. has changed in this respect they're. filing a lawsuit to break up a merger. that a previous doj had actually. approved well you're right this. Department of Justice this. Administration more broadly has a. different view about antitrust they. think that antitrust law can be a more. expansive tool to address problems in. the economy and they've put that into. practice practice they've sued Google.

for violating anti-monopoly laws they've. sued Apple for violating anti-monopoly. laws but I think ultimately what they. believe is that they're responding to a. change in the economy that these. companies have gotten much bigger that. they have gotten more powerful and they. are responding to the way the companies. broke the law on their way to becoming. that. big so David when you and I talked about. Google and apple you referenced them. here you know we talked about how were. broad repercussions for the future on.

American. society what would you say the. implications are in this case this case. ultimately for the justice department is. about the market for culture and. creativity you know a few years ago the. justice department successfully blocked. penguin randomhouse a big publisher from. buying Simon and Schuster another. publisher and they said that one problem. with this merger was that it would. reduce how much authors got paid and.

that it would create a market where. fewer books and fewer types of stories. broke through this justice department is. embracing an idea that the more. concentrated the economy gets the more. it stifles creative expression the. ability of artists to make art and get. it to the public and the ability of the. public to consume it and that they say. is a central question of democracy. because things like music are how we.

talk about big social issues or big. political issues so that is they say. what's at the heart of this case that it. is not just about the fees it's not just. about how much an artist gets paid but. it's about whether or not there is a. fair Marketplace for ideas and whether. or not consumers are able to access. [Music]. it David thank you thank you. [Music].

we'll be right. [Music]. back here's what else you should know. today on Wednesday Supreme Court Justice. Samuel Alo declined to recuse himself. from two cases arising from the January. 6th 2021 attack on the capital after the. times reported that Flags displayed.

outside his houses appeared to support. the stop the steel movement in letters. to democratic members of Congress who. had demanded his recusal Justice Alo. said that the flags at his home in. Virginia and a beach house in New Jersey. were flown by his wife Martha Anne and. that he had had nothing to do with. it and a group of 12 New York jurors. deliberated for more than 4 hours in the. final stretch of the criminal trial of.

Donald Trump in which the former. president is accused of falsifying. business records the jurors asked for. portions of the testimony from two. witnesses to be read back to them as. well as the judge's instructions they. were then dismissed for the day and will. resume deliberations. [Music]. today today's episode was produced by. Will Reed Rob zipco and Michelle Banja.

it was edited by Michael benois and. Brendan clink BG contains original music. by Maran Lozano Dan Powell and will Reed. and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley our. theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. Lanser of wonderly. [Music].

that's it for the daily I'm Sabrina. Tavern see you tomorrow. [Music].