The First Post-Affirmative Action Class Enters College

from The New York Times I'm Katherine. benold and this is the. [Music]. daily the Supreme Court's decision to. ban affirmative action last summer was. expected to drastically change the. demographics of college campuses around. the country now we are starting to. understand the extent of that change. today my colleague David Leonard. explains. [Music].

it's Friday September. [Music]. 6th David welcome back to the show thank. you Kine so in the past few weeks Elite. colleges around the US have started to. release their enrollment numbers for. this Academic Year which is the first. academic year since the Supreme Court. banned affirmative action it's a moment. you and a lot of other people have been. eagerly awaiting because we're all. curious what the effects of this.

decision will actually be so what have. you seen so far it's been fascinating so. as you said this is the first year of. students who are coming after the. Supreme Court decision in 2023 that said. colleges cannot continue to use the kind. of race-based affirmative action that. they used before and really what that. meant is that students were checking a. box about their race and in order to. make up for underrepresentation in the. past colleges were basically giving what. they call a tip to Black applicants.

Hispanic applicants and Native. applicants and the Supreme Court said. you can't do that anymore you can take. into account students life experiences. including race on an individual level. but you can't give these broad. advantages to different groups in the. process and people care about this even. though it's at a relatively small number. of schools because these schools confer. big economic advantages on the people. who go there according to recent. economic research and disproportionately.

create the American Elite senators and. Supreme Court Justices and CEOs. disproportionately come from these. several dozen. schools and so the first of these. schools to report the demographics for. the new Freshman Class these are the. classes that have just arrived on. college campuses in the last few weeks. was MIT and they reported this really. big decline in the number of black. students it had been 15% last year it's. 5% this year in the first year class and.

a decline in the number of Hispanic. students from 16% down to 11% the number. of Asian students went up significantly. and the number of white students. remained roughly constant so this is. basically a scenario that a lot of. different people predicted right. Defenders of affirmative action said. after the decision came down that the. share of black and Latino students would. likely plummet and critics of. affirmative action predicted that the. share of Asian students would likely. rise because affirmative action had. suppressed their numbers that's exactly.

right and so it looked like oh my. goodness we're going to have this result. that fits this neat story that we're. going to see Black and Hispanic. enrollment plummeting at all of these. Elite schools and potentially Asian. enrollment surging because that was the. picture at the first school to report. and there was at least one other school. that had results that resembled mits. ammer College which is a highly select. of college in Massachusetts also. reported meaningful declines the share. of black students went from 15% last.

year to 6% this year the percentage of. Hispanic students went from 12% last. year to 8% this year but it turns out as. we've gotten more schools reporting. numbers and even as we've dug a little. bit into mits and ammer numbers the. picture's gotten a lot more complicated. complicated how well there are several. schools where the share of black. students remained almost exactly the. same so at Duke the share of black. students this year held steady at 13%. same as last year at Yale it held steady.

at 14% at Princeton it also held steady. in the same range and even at some of. the schools that have reported big. declines in the number of Black and. Hispanic students like MIT the numbers. May exaggerate how big the decline. actually was and that's because at. Several of these schools at. MIT a student who is multi-racial counts. in more than one category so when you. see the share of both Black and Hispanic. students falling there might be a single. student who counts in both of those.

declines and look at Several of these. schools including MIT the Black and. Hispanic share definitely did fall it. just may not have fallen as much in real. human terms as some of those numbers. suggested that it did right and I want. to emphasize that we're still really. early in this reporting cycle and I'm. confident from talking to people that. schools are going to be all over the map. they're not all going to be like MIT or. they're not all going to be like Duke. but I don't think we yet know the mix of.

how many schools are going to remain. roughly similar and how many are going. to have big declines and we're just. going to need more time to find that out. okay so clearly there is quite a lot of. variation in this data but just from. what you're telling me it seems like the. share of black students at least overall. is down it sounds like at best it's kind. of stable for now but in some places it. actually dropped so is that a pattern. you're seeing here I think that is a. pattern and once more schools report I.

think that's what we're going to end up. seeing the trends with Hispanic students. though are a little different Hispanic. students are even more all over the map. in terms of the trends so there are. schools like MIT where the share of. Hispanic students fell there are schools. like Princeton and Yale where the share. held roughly steady but we even have an. example so far among just a very few. schools that have reported of a school. where the percentage of Hispanic. students Rose which is UVA it's gone. from 8% to 10% % in one year that's a.

meaningful increase and so one of the. things I will be watching going forward. as more schools report is is the. Hispanic share overall kind of holding. steady which seems plausible or is it. declining which also seems. plausible but there's another point to. think about here so far Katherine we've. been talking about race but if you look. at economic data it looks like the. number of lower income students at many. of these colleges is actually going up. hm so I'll give you two interesting.

examples Duke and UVA Duke is private. UVA is public these are historically two. of the least economically diverse. colleges in America I wrote a whole. story for our magazine about how. dominated Duke was by upper income. students and UVA the University of. Virginia has long been arguably the. least diverse public college in America. and yet we've really seen increases in. economic diversity so UVA reported that. the percent of students who receive the.

pel grant which is the largest financial. aid program in the country basically. goes to people in the bottom half of the. income distribution the pale share at. UVA Rose from 16 to 24 over the last. year at Duke it Rose from 17 to. 22 and we're going to need more. information to figure out exactly what's. going on here because the federal. government did expand eligibility for. the pel grant which might explain a. couple ticks of that increase but it. really seems like in a lot of these.

places economic diversity has risen over. the past year I mean it's really. fascinating what you're basically saying. is that one year after the Supreme Court. banned affirmative action broadly. speaking we're seeing racial diversity. decreasing but economic diversity. actually seems to have gone up that's. exactly. right and that's not a pattern that many. people would necessarily have expected. and it's a fascinating.

[Music]. pattern and that of course raises the. question of why is that happening. [Music].

we'll be right. back so David I want to dig a little. deeper into this frankly surprising. finding that we discussed in the first. half why is it that post- affirmative. action economic diversity has gone up at. these schools well one thing that seems. to be happening is that the number of. upper income Black and Hispanic and. multi-racial students at some of these. schools like MIT has declined and to.

some extent at some of these schools. they have been replaced by lower inome. students of many races potentially. including lower-income black students. and lower inome Asian and white students. and the reason that would be is that the. Supreme Court said you can no longer. take into account simply a student's. race but the Supreme Court also said. that colleges can very much continue to. take into account students life. experiences and so the main way that. they would hear about students.

experiences would be the essays so if a. student wrote about how they grew up in. a neighborhood that was lower income. maybe an overwhelmingly black or. overwhelmingly Hispanic neighborhood and. they faced racial discrimination or. maybe they grew up in a lower income. overwhelmingly Asian neighborhood and. face racial discrimination the colleges. can take all those into account and so. in this more subjective process in which. students have to talk about themselves. as individuals rather than checking a. box. you can imagine why these highly.

selective colleges who can choose among. incredibly large numbers of. fantastically talented students why some. of them might be admitting more. low-income kids who can talk about their. experiences with disadvantage and. discrimination and admitting fewer kids. who benefited from the old version of. affirmative action but who also come. from higher income neighborhoods and. more more advantaged high schools and if.

that is what colleges are doing you. could understand why the number of low. income students may be going up even as. the number of Black and Hispanic. students might be either holding steady. or going down so in other words the sort. of stronger focus on these application. essays which surface these stories of. overcoming have kind of helped to lead. to more socioeconomic diversity in these. classes.

because overcoming adversity isn't. necessarily a racial issue overcoming. adversity absolutely can include race in. the United States given our racial. inequities and given racial. discrimination but it's not only race. David I I just want to gut check here. now that affirmative action is no longer. on the table can we just assume that. colleges are still trying to maintain. the same degree of racial diversity in. other words are students still. encouraged to share their stories of. growing up as a minority in these essays.

well that's a fascinating question if. you ask colleges they would have to say. by the letter of the law that racial. diversity for its own sake is not. something that we are emphasizing or. considering in our application process. but we know that these colleges and. they've said this they believe deeply in. the value of racial diversity they think. it produces better education for their. students they think it means that the. students who are on campus who are not.

from one of the largest groups don't. feel alone so they care a lot about it. but your question is also scraping at. something interesting here which is. there are certainly conservatives and. opponents of affirmative action who are. worried that schools are going to cheat. who are worried that schools are going. to say we are taking into account the. students individual experience but. actually the schools often have ways of. knowing a student's race whether it's. from the essay or from other information. in an application and there are. certainly conservatives who were worried.

that schools are basically going to try. to hit their exact diversity targets as. before for the sake of IT schools. meanwhile are very worried about being. sued and so I think that we can expect. conservative legal activists the same. folks who brought the lawsuits that led. to the Supreme Court decision to be. scouring this data and potentially. filing suit against schools that report. very similar numbers as in the past and.

accusing them of still taking into. account race while pretending not to we. are almost certainly going to see more. legal fights over this issue but one of. the interesting things here David is. that in order to comply with the ban on. race-based affirmative action it seems. that some of these colleges might. actually be looking at class as a proxy. for race presumably in the hope that you. know selecting for a more economically. diverse class would also lead to more.

racial diversity but that doesn't. totally seem to be working out yes I. think they are using class in part as a. proxy for race but you're absolutely. right there is no perfect proxy for race. in the United States of America our. racial gaps are just too big so even if. colleges leaned heavily into economic. affirmative action they really might not. be able to replicate the percentage. particularly of black and Native. students that they had before.

affirmative action was outlawed by the. Supreme Court now even if they can't. absolutely replicate the shares that. they had before I do think the evidence. suggests that colleges can be. significantly more broadminded about. economic affirmative action in a way. that has a very strong argument that it. is fair and may also lift racial. diversity and what I mean by that is. that when people think of economic. University sometimes they think of it.

just narrowly by income but colleges can. take into account many factors besides. income they can take into account many. of the factors that we know have huge. racial gaps in this Society they can. take into account wealth and the wealth. Gap by race in our country is bigger. than the income gap they can take into. account neighborhood poverty they can. take into account the kind of high. schools that students go to and I think. there's a very strong argument that they. should be taking these factors into. account I mean if a student is growing. up in a high poverty high school with a.

family that has a very low net work. those factors really do affect the. students's ability to do schoolwork that. student is running with wind in her face. and so one of the things we hear from. colleges is that they are trying to. think about disadvantage in this broader. way than they were before the. affirmative action decision so are there. any concrete examples of schools doing. what you're saying you know looking at. socioeconomic factors in this Broadway. yeah there are a few so one thing that.

multiple schools are using is a tool. from the College Board the College Board. is the organization that gives the SAT. and gives the AP exams and the College. Board gives colleges a dashboard so that. the colleges can see not only what are a. student's scores but what is the context. in which that student is coming from so. these AP tests for example the top score. you can get is five now if you get a. four coming from a top high school that. means one thing but if you come from a. high school where you're the only.

student who managed to get a four on a. given AP exam that's really impressive. and colleges are then able to take into. account look it looks like this student. can do the work at our college and this. student is one of the very very best. students in his or her community that's. one example a second example is. recruitment a bunch of these colleges. are doing more to go to neighborhoods. and high schools that have historically. not sent many kids to those colleges and. try to do more to encourage students to.

apply UVA the University of Virginia is. a specific example they've launched this. program called all Virginia and it seems. like it may have made a difference I. mean the black share at ubaa fell but. not much it fell from 11% to 9% and some. of the other schools that have seen. their black share Hold Steady are also. doing these recruitment efforts and then. a third thing is money a whole bunch of. schools are out there trying to raise. money from their alumni and others. specifically to pay for financial aid. and they're often being very upfront.

about this they are saying Hey give us. money so we can afford to enroll more. students who don't pay tuition or who. don't pay much tuition and that can also. help with racial diversity so if schools. are really committed that's what I'm. hearing you say and they put in a lot of. intentional effort and and a lot of. money they can potentially achieve a. level of both economic diversity and and. racial diversity without necessarily.

violating the affirmative action ban yes. and we do have some history here in. several States race-based affirmative. action has been illegal for a long time. more than 20 years California Texas. these are Big States and the state law. said race-based affirmative action is. not okay and so if you look at what the. selective colleges in those states did. one of the things you notice is this. isn't a simple before and after colleges. need time to figure out what kind of.

programs they want to put in place that. might make a difference and so if you. look at California for example it is. absolutely the case that the number of. black students in particular at the most. selective University of California. campuses which are Berkeley and UCLA. fell a lot right after California banned. affirmative action and it is true that. Berkeley has really struggled to recover. the share of black students that it had. before before the law changed but UCLA.

which is essentially as selective as. Berkeley has made much more progress 25. years ago the share of black students at. UCLA was about 3% today it's closer to. 7% which isn't that different from the. share of black residents of California. and so what you see is we are going to. have variation there are some schools. that are going to be able to maintain. diversity better than others and it. isn't the case that these first year of. numbers see are necessarily going to be.

the new reality that lasts forever there. are going to be new versions of UCLA. schools where diversity initially Falls. but then starts to rebound as they. figure out ways to recruit a wide. variety of students okay so there seems. to be a model of what schools need to do. in order to maintain or at least raise. diversity from the kind of plummeting. after a ban has happened but what. happens if schools won't or can't put in.

these. resources I think it really depends on. what group we're talking about I think. if you're talking about hispanic. students there is real reason to be. optimistic over the long term so let's. look at UCLA again in 1999 the share of. Hispanic students at UCLA was. 133% today the share of Hispanic. students entering UCLA is. 24% it has risen really quickly even. without affirmative action in California.

and that's because of much broader. Trends there's been a whole lot of. research tracking the outcomes of. immigrants it's been part of this recent. Big Data revolution in economics in. which researchers can study millions of. tax records and Census records and get a. sense for families trajectories over. time and what it shows is that not only. Asian families but also Hispanic. families immigrant families are doing. extremely well when you look at measures. like education and income the recent.

immigrants both Asian and Hispanic are. very much following the trajectory of. earlier generations of immigrants the. Italian families and Irish families and. Jewish families from a century ago. immigrants themselves often remain poor. for their lives but their children do so. much better they become more educated. they make more money and their. grandchildren do even better yet and. that's the trajectory that so many Asian. and Hispanic families are on in this.

country and so when you think about that. larger reality it means that perhaps. colleges need to worry a little bit less. about what their enrollment of Hispanic. students are going forward even with. this. decision I think the story starts to. become very different when you're. talking about groups that have. experienced centuries of discrimination. and oppression in this country and that. is specifically black Americans and.

Native Americans and of course the whole. point of affirmative action from the. outset was to correct for racial. Injustice in America basically to help. write those historic wrongs like slavery. so how should we be thinking about that. original goal now that's a vital point. katran when affirmative action started. basically in the Kennedy and then LBJ. administrations in the 1960s it was not. a broad program to help all racial. minorities so much as it was a program.

specifically to help black Americans the. population at the time was less diverse. the American population was. overwhelmingly either white or black and. the idea of affirmative action was to. deal not only with the legacy of slavery. but also the legacy of the racially. discriminatory laws that we had well. into the 20th century into the second. half of the 20th century that helped. white people buy homes but wouldn't help. black people buy homes these are. legacies we still live with today one of. the reasons that black families are less.

wealthy than white families is because. we have had government policies that. have specifically tried to lift the net. worth of white families and excluded. black families and so given this. incredible Legacy of discrimination and. given the fact that immigrants of all. groups traditionally have all kinds of. advantages for a complicated mix of. reasons the thing that I particularly. will be looking at is what happens to. the share of black students and Native. students. at many of these schools I think those.

are the areas given the legacies of. racial discrimination in this country. particularly for Native and black people. that are much more worrisome than what. happens over the long term to the share. of Hispanic or Asian or white students. at these schools and is there room in. the light of this sort of ruling that. came down a year ago to design a more. targeted remedy specifically addressing. this particular historic Injustice.

I don't know and I think it's a great. question there was a fascinating. discussion during the Supreme Court. arguments over this case about whether. for example a college could consider. whether an applicant came from a family. that had been enslaved and Justice. Kavanaugh who of course is a republican. appointee suggested that he might be. open to such a policy now it was a brief. conversation and I don't know whether. you could but that's a really tricky. question right because the notion of did. you have an ancestor who is enslaved is. not a question about race but of course.

in the United States we know that that. is referring to Only One race and so you. can imagine particularly if the numbers. of black students look really worrisome. in coming years that colleges might try. to get more aggressive about those kinds. of questions but it is certainly. something that would have to be the. subject of future legal cases so David. as we're coming to the end of this. episode it just strikes me that. race-based affirmative action which was.

supposed to address racial Injustice. actually kind of failed on the economic. piece of that inequity and now in this. post affirmative action World we're. seeing some progress on the economic. Injustice front but on the racial. component these colleges may actually be. going. backwards yes that is right and it's a. sign of how complicated this entire. subject is and I think one thing to keep. in mind is it's not as if the system.

before The Supreme Court's decision was. working particularly well from anyone's. perspective so conservatives of course. were unhappy with the system with racial. categories that's how we got the case. and it's how we got a conservative. Supreme Court saying you can't use these. racial boxes but the old system was also. not that easy to defend on Progressive. values I mean several years ago. multiple Elite colleges had more.

students coming from the top. 1% of families based on income than the. entire bottom 60% so kind of affirmative. action for the rich actually yes and the. idea that these colleges that are. supposed to be meritocracies had more. students from the top 1% than from the. entire bottom 60% is very hard to defend. with any set of progressive values and. now we have new system and it seems as.

if this new system may increase economic. diversity just as you were saying it. also has the potential to decrease. racial diversity and aggravate racial. inequality in a country where racial. inequality is a deep and abiding. problem and so as we think about this. going forward I think we're likely to. end up with a set of changes that aren't. simply good or simply bad. from the perspective of any political.

ideology I think we're instead likely to. end up with a mix in which whatever your. views are you're probably going to look. at this system a few years from now and. say hm it changed in some ways that are. problematic and it changed in some ways. that are positive and over time the. colleges are going to try to increase. the positives and decrease the. problematic aspects of it. [Music].

well David thank you very much thank you. [Music]. KRON we'll be right. back here's what else you need to know. today on Thursday Hunter Biden pleaded. guilty to nine Federal tax charges in. Los Angeles signaling the final stages.

of a 5-year investigation into the. president's son Hunter Biden had been. bankrolling his drug and alcohol. addiction by leveraging his name to win. overseas Consulting contracts while not. paying his taxes his guilty plea was not. part of a plea deal he now faces a. prison sentence of up to 17 years or a. fine of up to $1.3 million on top of the. possible sentence of 25 years after. being convicted of lying on a Firearms.

application in Delaware in. June and President Vladimir Putin of. Russia Amplified his threats against. Ukraine's Eastern donbas region calling. moscow's offensive in the area his. military's quote First Priority goal. speaking at an International Conference. in Vladivostok Putin tried to portray. his Army's grueling push into eastern. Ukraine as evidence of a failed. Ukrainian military strategy he dismissed. Ukraine's capture of hundreds of square.

miles of Russian territory in the K. region as little more than a distraction. that would be dealt with over. [Music]. time remember to catch a new episode of. the interview right here tomorrow this. week David Mari interviews will Ferell. and his friend and fellow comedian. Harper steel not long ago steel came out. as trance and the too have now released. a documentary about that I said to.

Harper what if we went on a road trip I. went with. you and we film it and and I'll be kind. of like your offensive lineman so to. [Music]. speak today's episode was produced by. Stella tan and Alex Stern with help from. AA chatti it was edited by Liz oalen and. Michael benoa with help from Chris haxel. and research help by Susan Lee contains. original music by Dan Powell and Maran.

Lozano and was engineered by Chris Wood. our theme music is by Jim brenberg and. Ben lansberg of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Katherine benold see you Monday.

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