The Fallout From Zelensky and Trump’s Oval Office Meltdown

from New York Times I'm Michael babro. this is the. [Music]. daily today the Fallout from the. extraordinary televised Oval Office. shouting match between Donald Trump JD. Vance and volodimir. zalinski my colleague chief White House. correspondent Peter Baker walks us.

through the clash and its. [Music]. [Applause]. consequences it's Monday March. [Music]. 3rd Peter thank you for making time for. us on a Sunday afternoon no less we appr. apprciate thanks for having.

me I'm curious Peter where in the. pantheon of moments that you have. witnessed at the White House over the. past 30 years to date you does what. happened in the Oval Office on Friday. fit would you say yeah Michael I've been. covering these meetings at White Houses. since 1996 and I've never seen anything. like this never you had the president of. Ukraine Vladimir zalinski show up for a. meeting with the president of United. States Donald Trump in the middle of a.

war with so much at stake and so you. know everybody was looking to this. meeting to see how it would come. together I mean it was extraordinary it. was excruciating it was a brutal. dressing down of a foreign leader in the. Oval Office presidents just don't do. that they get frustrated at times and. sometimes they're pointed moments but. nothing like this verbal assault that. we've seen even on an adversary much. less on an ally and I think in history.

we're going to look back on this as a. unique singular moment right and not. just for the spectacle of it but for its. actual. consequential absolutely right this is a. rupture of a relationship now between. the United States and Ukraine 11 years. after Russia first invaded three years. after its full-fledged invasion in 2022. and America has been Ukraine's best. friend biggest partner most important. Patron and if this rupture this blowup. this meltdown in the Oval Office means.

that the relationship now is on the. rocks it has great consequence for. Ukraine especially has a great. consequence for Russian aggression in. the world for Europe and for the United. States I would say right and for all. those reasons I suspect history will. keep turning over this encounter for a. very long time as will we in this. conversation in a few moments but I. think it's worth setting up a bit what. led to this blow up and talk through the.

kind of Dynamics into which both men. entered the Oval Office on Friday right. well first of all it's important to know. the history president Trump has never. liked Ukraine in particular he was. convinced way back in his first term. that Ukraine had been opposed to his. election in 2016 this is a Russian. talking point right this is a Russian. intelligence Fable but one that Trump. bought into and of course zalinski was. the other guy on the phone he had the. quote perfect phone call not so perfect.

that led to his impeachment in which he. tried to bully zinski into launching a. fake investigation of Joe Biden right. two men have never had such awkward. history perhaps as world leaders very. awkward history and during the last four. years when Trump was out of office he. was never supportive of Ukraine in his. war against Russia he praised Vladimir. Putin for being a genius for sending. troops to pressure Ukraine into making. concessions and he opposed to Ukraine.

basically blocked it by Republicans in. the house forced them to block it for. about 6 months and sitting next to him. was JD Vance who was famously quoted. saying I don't care what happens in. Ukraine so these are not supporters of. Ukraine going into this meeting and then. over the last two weeks you see the. relationship really change dramatically. instead of Joe Biden sending arms and. standing with Ukraine saying we will. never never never not be with you you. have Donald Trump coming in and call. calling zalinski a dictator saying it.

was Ukraine falsely that started the war. adopting Russian talking points about. whether zalinski should have to have. elections never mind that Vladimir Putin. is the dictator that he started the war. and that he has fake elections at home. he was basically 180 degrees changing. American policy towards Russia and. Ukraine making clear that in this new. cold war that we've been talking about. now for so long America was essentially. switching sides right and for zalinski. this is existential for him and he faced.

this pressure from Trump to sign a Rare. Minerals deal handing over a lot of. Ukraine's natural resources to the. United States without any assurance that. the United States is going to give them. anything back Trump said you owe us back. basically for all the aid that Biden. gave you over the last three years right. so zilinski unhappily grudgingly comes. to Washington as almost a supplicant to. sign this agreement hoping that that. will keep Trump on Ukraine's side in any. future peace talk.

right so zilinski as you've clearly just. laid out here has no affection for Trump. but will agree to come to Washington to. sign this minerals deal mostly to. protect whatever existing Fray. attenuated relationship the US still has. with Ukraine as a supporter of its. defense yes that's right because he. hopes that it will keep the United. States on Ukraine's side give it. something at stake in the war in this.

case economic stakes and he knows how. much that matters to Trump so zinsky. shows up at the White House on Friday. morning and Trump comes out at the door. to greet him as he does with foreign. leaders and they have a polite handshake. but not a lot of warmth I would say and. Trump makes a comment as zinsky arrives. that later I think becomes kind of. telling says I see you came dressed up. for the occasion zki of course is. wearing his tactical dark sweater one of.

the versions of the combat type clothing. he's been wearing for the last three. years in solidarity with Ukrainian. soldiers right. and they go into the Oval Office they. take their seats there's a number of top. officials there JD Vance is there. secretary Rubio is there and the meeting. gets off to a relatively fine start well. thank you very much it's an honor to. have President zalinski of Ukraine and. we've been working very hard very close. so we've actually known each other for a.

long time we've been dealing with each. other for a long time and very well but. Zin is trying to make sure Trump. understands that Ukraine is the victim. not the villain in this War I wanted to. share with you some some images how. how just just can can can I. not and he shows in pictures of. Ukrainian men and women who have been. released from Russian prisons and how am. they are how terribly or you know abused. they had been in Russian captivity tried.

to get Trump to see that the Russians. are the bad guys here I mean it's. looking tragic yep that's tough stuff. yeah I wanted very much and the first 20. minutes 25 minutes are perfectly normal. perfectly fine but you begin to hear a. little bit of an edge you begin to hear. a little bit of the tension that's there. does that provide security guarantees Mr. President uh I don't want to talk about. security yet because I want to get the. deal done you know you fall into the.

same trap like everybody else a million. times you said over and over I want to. get the deal done security is so easy. that's about 2% of the problem uh I'm. not worried about security I'm worried. about getting the deal done and they. just don't see the war in the same way. before my presidency from the 2014 Putin. broken 25 times 25 times he. broken his own signature 25 times he. broken hisis fire he never broke to me.

he never broke to no no you were the. president you were the president dur. never broke to me in 2016 you been the. president M Mr pres you've been the. president but he delinsky does not want. Trump to negotiate a ceasefire with. Russia with no conditions and Ukraine. gets nothing out of it he doesn't think. Putin can be trusted that's why we will. never accept just ceasefire it will not. work without security guarantees he. doesn't think that a ceasefire would. hold so he says I need security.

guarantees and that's what he's there to. ask the United States for and Trump does. not want to have anything to do with it. I don't think you're going to need much. security I think once this deal gets. done it's over Russia is not going to. want to go back and nobody's going to. want to go back when this when this deal. ends I really believe this deal is is. going to be over but then in the midst. of this back and forth suddenly you hear. a new voice hey I I would respond to. this so look it's the vice president JD. Vance who hasn't really been talking in. the meeting and he pipes up and he says. I want to interject here and he offers a.

pointed defense of Trump's approach to. the conflict Trump is the one he says. who's going to bring peace he's going to. be engaging in diplomacy that's what. president Trump is doing can I ask you. sure yeah yeah okay so and zilinski. who's been listening to all this really. feels like he has to respond here during. 2014 till. 2022 you the what the situation the same. that people are been dying on the. contact line nobody stopped him and.

zinski basically proceeds to pick apart. this idea that diplomacy is necessarily. going to work he points out there's a. long history here the war didn't just. start three years ago started in 2014. when Putin first sent forces into. Ukraine seized Crimea began seizing. parts of eastern Ukraine and he points. out that this war has been going on ever. since including during Trump's. presidency yes but after that he broken. this his fire he killed people and he.

didn't exchange prisoners we signed the. exchange of prisoners but he didn't do. it and that seems to get under Trump and. Vance's. skin right it feels worth noting that in. this moment zalinski decides to call the. vice president JD not vice president. Vance what kind of diplomacy JD you are. speaking about what what you what do you. what do you mean perhaps history will. not note this as an important moment I. noted it yeah absolutely and look you. know on one level you can say he's.

trying to be friendly with him sometimes. foreign leaders do refer to each other. by their first names but Vance takes. offense and then jumps back in Mr. President Mr President with respect I. think it's disrespectful for you to come. into the Oval Office and try to litigate. this in front of the American Media and. this is when things go from bad to very. bad you should be thanking the president. for trying to bring it into this. conflict you start hearing Vance say you. should be grateful to us and really. putting zilinsky on the defensive there. and z of course has thanked America for.

3 years quite prolifically but you know. what's actually I think striking about. that Demand by Vance you should be. thanking us is he is demanding that. somebody thank two leaders who haven't. supported Ukraine Trump and Vance don't. support Ukraine and yet he is saying you. have to thank us right and as Vance and. zinsky are really kind of going at it. are do you disagree that you've had. problems bringing people into your. military is pushing zilinski on problems.

that the Ukrainian military is having. with Manpower and so forth and zalinski. say yeah of course we have problems. you'll have problems too though even you. but you have nice ocean and don't feel. now but you will feel it in the fusion. yeah just translate what he's saying. there because it feels like a really. important point zinski is trying to make. his point is that Russia poses a threat. to the United States not just Ukraine a. lot of times Trump talks about this he. says this is really a problem for Europe. it's not for us in fact Trump has said.

we have this big Ocean between us so. what do we care what happens in Ukraine. and zilinsky is pushing back on that. ideas says listen yes you have this nice. ocean and you don't feel it now a lot of. distance between you and Russia that. doesn't mean that Russia isn't also a. threat to the United States it doesn't. mean that the United States doesn't have. a stake in this has an interest in who. wins this war and whether Russia comes. out of it feeling rewarded for its. aggression don't tell us what we're. going to feel we're trying to solve a. problem don't tell us what we're going. to feel I'm not telling this is the. moment that Trump now jumps in you're in.

no position to dictate what we're going. to feel we're going to feel very good. feel and he begins to really kind of. berate zalinski in this very aggressive. way you're not in a good position you. don't have the cards right now with us. you start having cards right now you. don't you're playing cards you're you're. gambling with the lives of millions of. people you're gambling with World War I. with World War I in effect what Trump is.

saying is zinski all you need to. understand is that you have no power. right now we have all the power get on. board or you're in real trouble yeah. exactly people are dying tell you're. running low on soldiers listen you're. running low on soldiers it would be a. damn good thing and then you then you. tell us I don't want to cease fire I. don't want to cease fire what he's. saying is you have to accept whatever. deal I make with Putin you don't have. any power you're not able to influence.

things and that's a really extraordinary. thing to say to the leader of a country. at War he's saying you don't get to. choose here I'm the one who's going to. choose here because let me tell you you. don't have the cards with us you have. the cards but without us you don't have. any cards one more question what an. extraordinary moment right right these. two leaders really going at it over who. and what happens in this conflict in the. heart of Europe we should say at this.

moment all three of these leaders. seasoned leaders could have chosen to. deescalate what's becoming an incredibly. acrimonious almost shouting match but. they don't they all seem quite loaded. for bear they do this is where clearly a. lot of weeks if not months of tension. have come to the surface and they're. just exploding in this meeting and. they're saying what they have been. thinking or or feeling for quite a while. and it just escalates rather than de.

escalates and you finally get to the. point where Trump is Rel litigating the. whole Russia investigation let me tell. you Putin went through a hell of a lot. with me he went through a phony Witch. Hunt where they used him and Russia. Russia Russia Russia you ever hear of. that deal that was a phony that was a. phony Hunter Biden Joe Biden scam. Hillary Clinton he says vadir pin and I. went through this whole Russia hoax he. went through it he was accused of all. that stuff he had nothing to do with it. came out of Hunter Biden's bathroom it.

came out of Hunter Biden's bedroom it. was. disgusting what an amazing thing to say. right the person he clearly feels a bond. with is Putin not with volodimir. zalinsky who runs a democratic country. that has been allied with the United. States and is under Fire the problem is. I've empowered you to be a tough guy. finally Trump lays down his cars says. but you're either going to make a deal.

or we're out and if we're out you'll. fight it out I don't think it's going to. be pretty but you'll fight it out. basically either you're with us either. you go along with what I'm going to do. or we're out we'll abandon you we'll. abandon you it's a very Stark Threat all. right uh I think we've seen enough what. do you. think this is this is going to be great. television I will say that. we'll see what we and then the reporters.

are escorted out of the. room Peter once the shock wore off for. me at least and as I told you I'm. watching this as well I had this sense. and I wonder if you did as well that. people in the two delegations the. zalinsky camp and the Trump camp they're. going to find a way to try to smooth. this over after the cameras leave the. room because of course they are there to. sign a deal exactly this deal is. supposed to be signed this supposed to. use this deal to put the relationship on.

a New Foundation going forward and now. with the cameras out of the room are. they going to make apologies or at least. smooth it over and will they still have. the lunch will they still sign the deal. that was the whole point of him coming. in the first place will they have the. news conference been set up in the East. room waiting for us any minute now we. don't. know but then suddenly we get the answer. zelinsky's car has just pulled up to the. door of the West Wing and he's leaving.

[Music]. we'll be right. [Music]. back Peter pick the story up where you. just left it off what ends up happening. behind the scenes based on your. reporting that ultimately ends with this. day becoming totally unsalvageable but.

what we end up learning later is the two. teams the US team and the Ukrainian team. head into separate rooms in the Westwind. to collect themselves after this. bruising battle in the Oval Office and. zalinsky still wants to salvage this. thing he still wants to sign the deal he. still wants to see if he can't smooth it. over but the US side Trump and his team. are meeting in another part of the White. House and they are Furious and the. answer to them is no it's over tell them.

to leave and two US officials then go to. the room where zalinski and his team are. and explain to him you're out of here. basically they're kicking zalinski out. of the White House exactly right and so. the reporters were all rushing out to. the driveway and there's this black. Chevy SUV the the Suburban at the door. of the West Wing and out comes volodimir. zalinski looking very grim-faced as he. climbs in and then the bourbon pulls out. of the White House driveway and off the.

White House grounds and you realize just. how much has changed in those few. minutes wow so lunch is off the press. conference is off Trump's Aid's are busy. eating the lunch that actually been. prepared for zalinsky there roasted. chicken in km Brule and Trump issues a. statement on his social media platform. and it says I have determined that. president zinsky is not ready for peace. if America is involved he disrespected. the United States of America in its char. over office he can come back when he is.

ready for peace Peter the reactions to. this encounter are all over the place as. you might expect you've got Republicans. some of them now saying it's time for. zalinsky to resign and they are. repeating the charge from Trump advance. that zalinski wasn't sufficiently. respectful and that Ukraine should send. the United States a leader who can show. the president of the United States more. respect then you've got Congressional. Democrats who are a gas that the. president would Brave. the leader of a country that is an.

American Ally and Furious that we seem. to be giving a boost to Russia by. humiliating the leader of Ukraine and so. I'm curious what you're making of those. two drastically different responses to. this same encounter Senator. Graham yeah I was there on the White. House driveway when Senator gleny Graham. came out what do I think complete utter. disaster essentially sent out by the. White house to say not only that it was.

zelinsky's fault I talked to zinski this. morning don't take the bait president. Trump was in a very good mood last night. somebody asked me am I embarrassed about. Trump I have never been more proud of. the president and that he's proud of. trump for standing up for America but. that if zalinski wouldn't change it he. should even resign what I saw in the. Oval Office was. disrespectful and I don't know if we can. ever do business with zalinski again.

and what a remarkable 180° for the. Graham wing of the Republican party what. used to be the Reagan wing of the. Republican Party Graham was one of the. most hawkish pro-ukraine anti-russia. voices on the scene and now he has. fallen in line behind Trump but to. Democrats the only person who had been. disrespected in that meeting was zinski. so all zilinski asked yesterday was how. do you know that diplomacy will work and. because he had the audacity to ask that.

simple question he was ushered out of. the White House and apparently the. United States is going to do Putin's. bidding and hand him and the Democrats. are the ones who were left to defend. Ukraine and call for a more skeptical. view of Russia and to cast Russia as the. enemy seninsky is leading a country. trying to defend democracy. against an authoritarian dictator Putin.

who invaded his country and our job is. to defend the 250e tradition that we. have of being the Democratic leader of. the world not turn our backs on a. struggling country that is trying to do. the right thing right so that's the. domestic political response Peter but. the responses that most intrigued me. were from people who said said basically.

wasn't this a moment of unvarnished. truthtellah and it's not really a. priority for the Trump Administration so. in a way Trump was being very clear and. very direct. about all of that in this.

confrontation yeah I mean look it is. certainly the case that a lot of people. believe the United States needs to focus. its priorities either at home or perhaps. against China because that's the bigger. threat and therefore we have to. recalibrate our relationship with Europe. our commitments in Europe our hostility. toward Russia and the Strategic thought. that you hear from some people behind. what happened on Friday is it's time for. us to cut bait and be friendlier with.

Russia because we need them against. China I don't know how much that's part. of Trump's own thinking but certainly. some people around him give voice to. that analysis even so of course to see. the very personal and visceral way that. Trump was willing to cut loose an ally. in furtherance of this strategy was. pretty striking even if that's what you. wanted to do doing it in this way I. think was pretty shocking for a lot of. people right which is a slightly. different question and one that is.

important which is was this done poorly. impolitely shockingly so to some but I. think it feels like Trump's goal here is. to focus like you just said on Russia. and China and that in the end Ukraine. stands in the way of that Trump wants to. be sitting down across from Putin or Xi. Jinping he does not want to have to be. worrying about a war in Ukraine no.

question that Trump respects strength. and power and he sees the world as a. place where big men and big powers like. the United States and Putin's Russia. divide up their spheres of influence. very much like a 19th century or you. know mid 20th century view of things. while the democracies will simply have. to eat it if they have to in other words. what matters more is who is powerful not. who has the same kind of governmental. system right and that leaves the. question that does Ukraine become in.

effect roadkill on the way to this you. know real politic goal and what happens. to the US relationship with other. democracies in Asia and and Europe and. do we embolden authoritarian governments. like Putin by rewarding them for their. aggression well a related question to. this Peter is is Europe going to pick up. the slack if the us if Trump is going to. walk away from this to focus on Russia. and China and to use your words. potentially leave Ukraine as roadkill in.

the pursuit of that goal is Europe going. to step in and protect Ukraine and it. was striking how much in the hours after. zalinski was kicked out of the White. House European leaders lionized him and. posed the question of what their role. needed to be if the US walks away I mean. the prime minister of France wrote by. refusing to bend in Washington vomir. zinski was the honor of Europe but then. he goes on to write. now it is upon us Europeans to decide.

what we want to be and whether we want. to be and I took that to mean her saying. Europe are we going to step up and solve. the problems for Ukraine that the US has. until now but seems to be walking away. from yeah absolutely so as soon as. Alinsky leaves Washington he heads to. London where he meets with European. leaders including kir starmer the. British prime minister and this is. already planned before the blow up in.

the Oval Office but it's such a. remarkable amount of timing because he. is greeted with open arms right the. Europeans have rallied to his side in. this one after the other across the. continent they said we stand with. Ukraine we stand with zalinski they say. the things that you just quoted the. French prime minister is saying and. starmer promises more funding a couple. more billion dollars worth of weapons. for Advanced Air Defense missiles and. talks about a peacekeeping force that.

the Europeans can put together even. without the Americans once there is a. peace deal if there's a peace deal to. try to enforce it but it's a test it's a. real test because time and time again. Europeans have said yeah we're going to. step up and take more of the burden from. the United States without actually. following through and they have risen to. the occasion with Ukraine over these. last three years they've actually. donated more money for Ukraine's defense. than the United States has you may have. heard Trump say the opposite he's wrong. about that but it's still a question.

whether they can do everything that. Ukraine would need and would lose. without American support and for Europe. it really is a moment of truth right and. it seems worth noting that UK's prime. minister even as he announced more money. for Ukraine said we've got to be honest. we still need a back stop from the US. there's nothing approaching a true. guarantee of Ukraine safety unless the. US is involved. that's right I mean you know they don't.

expect us to put troops on the ground. what they would like would be air. support or logistical support or Intel. support and mainly just political and. geopolitical support the idea that the. United States is behind them on this and. that Russia ought not to try anything. because it would not just be aggravating. Europe but aggravating the United States. and taking a real chance there and it's. not clear that Trump wants to do that he. said I don't really care too much about. what the security situation is after I. make peace he trust Vladimir Putin to. keep the deal doesn't believe that there. really needs to be any security.

guarantee because he thinks Putin can be. trusted well nobody in Ukraine thinks. that and very few people in Europe think. that right Peter my final question for. you is about zolinski and what based on. your reporting you think he is going to. do now he's been issued this offer via. president Trump to return to the White. House but only as a man of peace and. from everything you're saying here what. that really means is that the president.

wants him to return as a person willing. to capitulate and recognize that the US. doesn't really care as much as it once. did about protecting Ukraine and that he. has to live and die by Trump's hope that. Putin would keep a deal that Trump makes. and that means giving up a lot and so. I'm curious do you think zilinski will. return to the White House on the terms. that Trump. wants or does he not return and does he.

instead focus on Europe as a replacement. and savior for Ukraine as potentially. insufficient as that might be yeah I. think it's really one of the essential. questions out of all this look in the. immediate aftermath of this meltdown in. the Oval Office he tried to smooth it. over first with social media post and. later with an interview on Fox News and. other comments saying you know look. thank you America thank you to the. president and it was him I think trying.

to smooth it over in his own way but he. is a man of Pride too he's a man. struggling to save his country from an. aggressor and there's only so far he was. willing to go he said on Fox News he. didn't think he had anything to. apologize for he regretted it he was. sorry it happened but he didn't think he. had done anything wrong and you're right. Trump if they put this back together and. it's possible that they do Trump will. want him to come back in a supplicant. form and Vladimir I is a lot of things. but he doesn't really have the flattery.

Gene that some of these other foreign. leaders use to suck up to Trump it's. just not his nature and we'll see. whether or not he can do that whether he. should do that whether that would be. enough even if he did this is the new. order right now and the New Order is you. know if you are not deferential to Trump. he will punish. [Music]. you so for zalinski the choice here. basically is how far is he willing to.

defer how far is he willing to flatter. how far is he willing to subordinate. himself on some level to Trump and if he. did do that would it even. work would it even get him what he. really thinks he. needs well Peter thank you very much we. appreciate it thanks for having me great.

to talk with. [Music]. you on Sunday night a spokesman for. Russian President Vladimir Putin said. that the Trump administration's new. policies towards countries like Ukraine. encapsulated by the Oval Office. confrontation between Trump and zalinski. had brought the United States much. closer to Russia's own approach the.

spokesman said quote the new. Administration is rapidly changing all. foreign policy. configurations this he added largely. aligns with our. [Music]. vision we'll be right back. [Music].

here's what else you need to know today. on Sunday Israel disrupted its existing. and agreed upon framework for ending its. war with Hamas by saying it would. immediately end the flow of all goods. and humanitarian assistance into Gaza. the decision is an attempt by Israel to. temporarily extend its ceasefire deal.

with Hamas without advancing to the next. more delicate stage of. negotiations that stage would have. required Israel to withdraw troops from. Gaza and to commit to a permanent. ceasefire in return for the release of. the remaining Israeli hostages inside. Gaza Hamas immediately denounced. Israel's decision but it was clear that. the Trump Administration supported. Israel's new plan and over the weekend.

US Secretary of State Marco Rubio. invoked emergency powers to bypass. Congress and send $4 billion in weapons. to. Israel today's episode was produced by. Will Reed and M z it was edited by Liz o. Balin contains original music by Dan how. and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley our.

theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. lansberg of. [Music]. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael. Boro see you tomorrow. [Music].